Trans-synd fluid for allison [Archive] - TheDieselPage.com Forums

HDLD

01-15-2003, 13:32

For those contemplating a switch to TranSynd, you may find that sometime soon your local Allison dealer has a new kwik-flush cart that allows them to perform a flush of the DEXRON-III *without* diluting the TranSynd.

The procedure apparently will take about 20 min.

This has just come out so I wouldn't expect many to have it in Q1 but the cart looks like it's built to do the job properly.

Some Features:

16-gallon "clean" oil resevoir with sight gauge.

4-gallon "waste" oil resevoir with sight gauge, drain hose/valve and "clean-out" access.

15 GPM dual-diaphragm pneumatic pump w/ 1" ports.

Non-bypass, readily available, 10-micron high efficiency Pall coreless in-tank filter.

10-foot #12 hoses.

There are 3 modes of operation:

Initial Flush mode
Filtered Flush mode
Purge mode

EDIT:

The exact name is the Pall Transmission Cooler Kwik-Flush Cart. It comes direct from Allison and can be used with all Allison Commercial Transmissions but I expect the 1000 would also qualify.

Allison clearly states that the purge capaibilty of this machine allows it to be used to flush coolers with DEXRON-III, without causing any subsequent dilution of TranSynd.

[ 01-15-2003: Message edited by: HDLD ]

SteveO

01-15-2003, 20:33

HDLD,

The flusher your talking about does not do what your looking for...

Let me explain>>

I'm guessing you got that info from the AllisonTransmission.com site?

That flusher is used to flush the COOLER ONLY; Not yelling, just need to show some big letters smile.gif .. This Flusher is used when a transmission is replaced/repaired..
Example: Say the Torque Converter has a bearing failure and blows metal all over the transmission, cooler line, Cooler.. This flusher is designed to flush out the Cooler lines and the cooler.. It uses air to "Pulsate" the stubborn metal debris from the cooler and lines.. When this flusher is hooked up, it's to both cooler lines and does not flush or come in contact with the Transmission...

It does exactly what you have written in your Edit.. "Transmission """Cooler""" Kwik-Flush Cart"..

With that said ALLISON DOES NOT endorse or recommend using a Flusher to move fluid through the trans...

BTW: The best way to remove ALL Dexron III (or old fluid) from your trans/ cooler lines and cooler is to drain fluid, replace spin-on filter, remove the "FROM COOLER" line (install a short piece of hose) and run into bucket.. Add about 2-3 more quarts (TranSynd, Amsoil, Mobil1) than you removed and crank it up.. When the New Fluid comes out of the Hose reinstall line and top off fluid.. I do this everyday, and have NEVER had a problem...

HDLD

01-15-2003, 21:25

SteveO,

I would presume you are correct. I was wondering about the reference to cooler. I was talking to a buddy that unfortunately further reinforced in my mind this was for the transmission but you are no doubt correct...for the cooler only...duh.

I do recall the procedure you mention from other posts here. What remaining fluid is this removing? Mostly from the torque converter?

Would it be accurate to say this removes 98% of the original fluid?

svpdiesel

01-16-2003, 10:24

Steve O,
Type "Group III Oil" into your internet search engine, you'll get a lot of hits with info about oil types, what is and is not synthetic. Castrol Transynd, and Syntec, is a Group III mineral- based oil produced by a "fuels hydrocracker" from petroleum mineral oil. Group IV synthetics (like Mobil 1 and Amsoil)use a polyalphaolefin (PAO) man-made synthetic base, which is much more expensive. Group V (Redline, Klotz) oils use an even more expensive base called polyol-ester (not polyester) and, I believe, was originally developed for turbines, because does not break down at extreme high temps. Mobil actually sued Castrol in the late '90's because Castrol switched from a Gr IV down to a Gr III base, and still called it synthetic. Castrol eventually won because the Gr III is a man-altered form of mineral oil. So, Castrol, and anyone else, can now call the much less expensive Gr III oil a synthetic, even though it is made from crude. It is more highly refined than std Gr II oils, but lacks a lot of the high- temp and breakdown resistance of the true synthetics in Gr IV and Gr V.
That, in a nutshell, is what I've been able to ascertain from a little research. The Castrol-Mobil 1 suit is well documented, but not well-publicized, for obvious reasons on Castrol's part. They made Syntec much cheaper to produce, but did not inform us buyers of the change, and did not reduce the price. Transynd is the same story. Better than a regular oil, but not as good as a real synthetic.
Personally, I was disappointed because I have used Syntec in a Porsche that I run track events with, and I noticed a while back that my oil gets dirty more quickly, and smells like regular oil when it gets on the headers. Now I know why, and I'll be switching to real synthetics.
And I will write a nasty letter to Castrol.

Steve

SteveO

01-16-2003, 16:07

svpdiesel,

Thanks for the info.. When I get time I will do some research since I'm not having any luck with the people that proclaimed this to be true..

Thanks Again..

HDLD,

If you do the procedure like I said you will have 98-100% TranSynd/Amsoil/Mobil/?.. It's close enough to 100% for me.. If you just drain the fluid your not going to get the T/C, Cooler Lines and Cooler, nor are you going to get what's in the Cooler circuit instide the trans, that's the fluid that's between the gears and planetary gears/ clutches etc...

svpdiesel

01-16-2003, 17:27

SteveO,
I will try and dig up some stuff from the SAE on the various types, and maybe put it on this forum to settle it all, once and for all. But, until I can reference an SAE or API document, I won't say I have all the facts. George Morrison would know more, and may be better able to shed light on the subject. I'm staying out of the warranty thing, no matter what. It would just be nice to get the straight scoop on what is or isn't synthetic, eh?
Steve

BobW

01-17-2003, 00:14

Allison's recommendations for changing from Dexron to Transynd at

http://www.allisontransmission.com/documents/product/1099B.pdf

FisHn2DMax

01-17-2003, 03:08

I'm curious as to why one would switch away from Dexron ATF? I'm fairly new to the DMax/Alli ownership and have seen much debate and opinions shared about various Dino or synthetics oils/fluids on this forum. Is there really a huge advantage in switching from Dexron ATF? Why do so many on this forum seem to go to great lengths and expense to switch away from OEM lube recommendations? If Amsoil and other brands of so-called "Synthetic" oils & fluids are significantly superior to the OEM Lubes, why do so many "synthetic" oils NOT have a true API certification label (like most Dino oils have)?

I'm just trying to learn and understand from all those here with actual experiences and expertise in lubes.

Thanks,

jbplock

01-17-2003, 06:02

The following are links to the Allison approved fluids list:

http://www.allisontransmission.com/service/
Click on "Approved C4 Fluids" or goto

http://www.allisontransmission.com/documents/product/1390E.pdf

http://www.allisontransmission.com/servlet/DownloadFile?Dir=publications/pubs&FileToGet=GN3465EN.pdf
smile.gif

[ 01-17-2003: Message edited by: jbplock ]

kerry witherspoon

01-17-2003, 19:03

Today switched fom dex 3 to transend and very pleased . Used the deep pan and droped the valve body ,drained as much oil as possible flushed the cooler ,droped out 16 litres tolal used 19 literes 250 ml to refill. shifts smoother,and in calgary today trans is running at the temp of oil in return fron rad, duel temp gages tell me its picking up heat from rad. Flow from rad is warmer than oil going to it.

BigAl

01-22-2003, 09:20

I'm Baaaaaaaaaack!

I've seen this stuff before and it makes me cringe. There's a lot of information out there on the Internet, but you have to understand what you are looking at to get the real skinny. If you tried real hard, I'll bet you could put together information which proves that J.R. was really shot by Abraham Lincoln, posing as J. W. Boothe. :eek:

TranSynd is a full synthetic Group IV product and uses only PAO (polyalphaolefin) base oils. That's why it's expensive! It delivers outstanding performance and durability.

TranSynd is NOT Syntec............and yes, I'm yelling, SteveO ;) Let's stay focused here, guys! We are talking about TranSynd. Don't get distracted by people who would lead you to believe that TranSynd isn't a full synthetic. As far as the web information cited above, I cannot explain that other than to say it confilicts with my information.

mdrag

01-22-2003, 09:31

BigAl,

Thanks for the explanation. Glad to see that you're back - we missed ya!!! :D

BigAl

01-22-2003, 09:42

mdrag,

Thanks for the kind words. Kinda got misty there for a moment..............I missed bein' here, but that's another story.

Probably should have mentioned that I believe all the legal junk with Castrol involved Syntec....which last time I looked is a motor oil, not a tranny fluid!! :rolleyes:

Buckman

01-22-2003, 12:00

BigAl

Welcome back. Glad to see you found your way back from the dark side !!! ;) ;) Now, if you could just get that light saber straightened. :rolleyes: By the way, I agree with your comments regarding Transynd. My sources; which by the way are extremely dependable,inform me that Transynd is a full synthetic Group IV product. You are correct that when surfing through the Internet for information; it is important that you pay very careful attention to what you are reading.

svpdiesel

01-22-2003, 12:14

Hey, Big Al,
I'm still trying to find some kind of documentation or verifiable information on the whole Castrol- "synthetic" thing. Do you have any suggestions as to where to look? Everything I have found indicates that Transynd is one of many Castrol products in the Group III category, not Group IV. I have even sent an inquiry to Castrol hoping for some clarification. No results. I would like to know for myself, as well as all the other interested members.

Thanks
Steve

DmaxMaverick

01-22-2003, 13:10

Something's not right here. Hoot's jug and Transynd's MSDS clearly indicates petroleum content.

http://www.allisontransmission.com/documents/product/publications/pubs/GN3505EN.pdf

BigAl

01-22-2003, 15:17

OK guys, give me a little time here. I'm on it, just not getting a whole lot of "rapid feedback" just now.

I'm trying to noodle out exactly what the "words" on the TranSynd container mean. The "OSHA 29 CFR 1910" do-hickey is forcing the packager to print the "words" "Severely Solvent Refined Petroleum Oil". My first (and uneducated mind you) inkling is there are some additives in the mix that are petroleum-based...................hence the "words". On the other hand, I have no clue what the OSHA-thingey is.

I'll get back to y'all, so stay tuned.................trust me! smile.gif

SteveO

01-22-2003, 16:01

Thanks BigAl,

More to come... smile.gif

LA DMAX

01-22-2003, 21:01

I hope I'm not chimming in at the wrong time BigAl. I think that OSHA stands for the Occupational Safety Health Administration, and the labeling just may be for hazardous waste removal or treatment in case of a spill. Just my thoughts, don't know if this is right or not.

LA DMAX

1822

01-23-2003, 05:40

The OSHA label is just a required statement. All oils are labled this way when you get into the grey MSDS area, be it gear lube, hyd. oils or motor oils, synthetic or organic. Just a govt. regulation.

DmaxMaverick

01-23-2003, 10:10

1822

I looked at many of the MSDS' for common brand ATF's that claim to be full synthetic. Transynd was the only one that had "petroleum" in the content statement. Didn't seem grey at all.

The only synthetic ATF container I have on hand is Amsoil. There is no mention of "petroleum" on either the one qt or 10 qt container.

Mobil 1 MSDS:
http://emmsds.ihspsl.com/msds/frames.htm

Royal Purple MSDS:
http://www.royalpurple.com/retprods/retpsmsds.shtml

Amsoil MSDS:
www.pecuniary.com/MSDS/ATF.pdf

BigAl

01-23-2003, 11:12

Ladies and Germs, here is what I have found out..............

First, the "words" on the containers. As I suspected, additive packages contain solid materials that are kept in suspension by what is called Dilluent Oils. These are, in fact, petroleum based. Conventional wisdom has it that the OSHA "words" are on the containers due to these petroleum-based additive oils. That does not alter the fact that the base lubricant to which the additives are "added" are something else. Apparently the other synthetic oil marketers have seen fit not to include these "words", even though they, too, probably have additive packages that contain Dilluent Oils. Go figure..............I guess it depends upon how strictly the manufacturers interpret (or even understand) the OSHA standards; some will err on the side of conservatism, while others will take chances.

This next section is long and technical, for which I apologize. I think it is important to understand what Transynd is and is not once and for all. (Well, at least until the next time! smile.gif )

TranSynd is a pure synthetic. Let me say that again................TranSynd is a pure synthetic.

It is not a "blend" and it is not made from hydrocracked or hydrotreated Group III base oils as has been implied by persons posting to this thread. TranSynd is manufactured with only Group IV base oils (All polyalphaolefins or PAOs) as defined by the American Petroleum Institute (API). API base oil groups are defined by their Sulfur Content, %Saturates, and Viscosity Index. Sulfur content and % saturates are factors in oil service life and Viscosity Index defines how much the viscosity (thickness of the oil or resistance to flow) changes with respect to a change in temperature. Group IV base oils (such as those used in TranSynd) contain lower sulfur, more saturates, and higher Viscosity Index than do lubricants made from Group I, II, and III oils. This means that engine oils and/or transmission fluids made with Group IV base oils tend to give longer service lives and less viscosity change than do lubricants made from Group I, II, and III base oils. If you're really into this stuff, I'll bet there is an API website somewhere which would provide you with even more detail.

In addition, there have been questions/discussion regarding TES-295 (Allison's oil specification) and whether or not some fluids on the market have been approved to that specification. Fluids that have been tested and approved to the TES-295 standard have been granted an Approval Letter from Allison. If you are in doubt about whether or not a fluid is approved to TES-295, ask the supplier to provide you with a copy of Allison's Approval Letter. Also, Allison publishes a Service Bulletin that lists approved oils. I think you can view this bulletin by visiting their website at www.allisontransmission.com.

Now back to the point. The people who have stated that Transynd is not a "real" synthetic fluid have been asked where they got their information. I think we are all waiting for the answers. :confused:

Hope this helps in some small way!

[ 01-23-2003: Message edited by: BigAl ]

SteveO

01-23-2003, 11:25

Thanks Big Al,

Now, like I have asked numerous times over the past 2 Years or more.. Give me documentation that Castrol TranSynd ATF is a Mineral Base Fluid...

I have spoke with the people who know everything about this fluid and they say.. "YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR".

End of story....

mdrag

01-23-2003, 13:02

BigAl,

Outta the gate smokin'!!!

Thanks for that updated info, it's really appreciated.

BTW, I guess this more than makes up for that 500/5000 thingy ;) tongue.gif :D

mdrag

BigAl

01-23-2003, 14:36

mdrag,

You'd think after a while some people would forget.

But Nooooooooooooooooooooooo.

P.S. News Flash!!!! Oil change interval for 1000 Series using Transynd is 5 Gozillion miles, or every-other bedliner change, whichever occurs first! ;) tongue.gif :rolleyes:

ChevysRus

01-24-2003, 12:40

Hey there Big Al, nice to see you still kickin it!

Well, I am about to make my second and last Transynd fluid change. Yep, just coming up on 25K and gonna do it this weekend, drain the deep pan, change the tranny filter, pull the cooler line and pump out the "old" diluted 10K TranSynd and in with the new.

Based on your input and my local Allsion dealer advise, don't have to change this stuff again for 150K-200K. By then I will be long gone to another dimension and the TranSynd will still be pumping LOL :D

ChevysRus

01-24-2003, 12:49

DARN IT! just did the math, 150,000 miles @ 18K per year is 8.333 years.......JEZ I might just have to change this stuff once or twice more HUH!

I had better start saving up, because I don't know if I will be able to afford this TranSynd stuff on my "Fixed Income"

Maybe technology will advance and they will finally come up with a fluid that will go longer than 8-10 years on a change. These darn big oil company's really have us over a barrel don't they! hee hee hee ;)

LanduytG

01-25-2003, 06:37

Big Al

Not wanting to be a pain in the A$$ here but this statement does not prove Transydn is a group IV. Unless of course you have all the info to prove Transynd contains lower sulfur, more saturates, and higher Viscosity Index. I would like to see these numbers and where they came from.

Castrol has a reputation of using group III base stocks. I cannot imagine them using anything else after winning a big lawsuit that says they can call a group III a synthetic. Again not wanting to ruffle feathers but I would like to see this data.

Greg

"API base oil groups are defined by their Sulfur Content, %Saturates, and Viscosity Index. Sulfur content and % saturates are factors in oil service life and Viscosity Index defines how much the viscosity (thickness of the oil or resistance to flow) changes with respect to a change in temperature. Group IV base oils (such as those used in TranSynd) contain lower sulfur, more saturates, and higher Viscosity Index than do lubricants made from Group I, II, and III oils. This means that engine oils and/or transmission fluids made with Group IV base oils tend to give longer service lives and less viscosity change than do lubricants made from Group I, II, and III base oils. If you're really into this stuff, I'll bet there is an API website somewhere which would provide you with even more detail."

SteveO

01-25-2003, 08:37

GregL,

The ball is in your Court..

You were the one that claimed TranSynd was not a "Full" Synthetic..

One more time.. Give me documantaion that TranSynd is not a TRUE Full Synthetic Fluid..

LanduytG

01-25-2003, 09:37

Yes I did claim it

SteveO

01-25-2003, 11:19

GregL,

No we are not at a draw with a statement like "Though it has been tested and results have shown it

LanduytG

01-25-2003, 12:05

SteveO
As I said I don't have the documented proof. I can only have faith in those that have tested it. But I would like for someone to show me that it is a Group IV. I am sure that it must be available somewhere. Big AL's statement sure doesn't prove that it is.

Greg

DmaxMaverick

01-25-2003, 16:39

I agree with Greg on this. I have not seen proof either way. Is it group III, or IV? Is it generally accepted that group III is a petroleum base stock, and group IV is not? That's the way I see it. Castrol places itself in a situation of doubt. Transynd is the only ATF that claims to be synthetic and both on the container, and on the MSDS, petroleum content is clearly indicated. That is doubt. It should be a simple matter to get someone (other than a sales/marketing person) at Castrol to speak up and support its product. I have not seen any indication from Castrol that the product is of either group. Vague product descriptions is by no means a new marketing strategy. They should know.

It could be that Transynd is in fact the best product on the market for our needs. However, that is not the issue at hand. The question is simple. Group III or IV. Opinions and statements by individuals are not going to answer the question. Heck.... We may never know.

LanduytG

01-25-2003, 19:15

DmaxMaverick

Thanks for mentioning the MSDS, I never thought to look there.

I can't believe that I just spent 2 hours looking for specs on Transynd and couldn't find any. BUT I did find some very interesting information. It appears that Transynd is only good down to -22*F. Funny all other real synthetic ATF's are good to -60*F to -69*F. If Transynd was a Group IV it would be good to those temps as well. This is the link to where I found it.

http://www.allisontransmission.com/documents/product/13-TR-90,%20Rev%20E.pdf

Plus the MSDS on Transynd says

Composition/Information on Ingredients
Ingredient Name
Distillates, Petroleum, Solvent Refined Light Paraffinic

Now it does not say that because of the additive package thats in it as state earlier in this thread.
Mobile and Amsoils MSDS says nothing about distillates, petroleum, solvent refined or paraffinic. Now if transynd was a PAO it wouldn't have paraffinic's would it?

Here is the link to that.

http://www.allisontransmission.com/documents/product/publications/pubs/GN3505EN.pdf

Now Mobile and Amsoils MSDS on their ATF make no mention of petroleum distillates. Why, because they aren

hoot

01-25-2003, 20:08

SO if the label says "Synthetic" what does that mean?

LanduytG

01-25-2003, 20:11

That Castrol won a lawsuit that says they call call their stuff synthetic. ;)
Greg

hoot

01-25-2003, 20:17

Apparently they aren'y afraid to be calling it "full synthetic" either.....

" TranSynd Synthetic Oil
Allison now recommends their TranSynd full synthetic oil in all of their products. The oil, jointly developed with Castrol and introduced in 1999, provides optimum transmission in all ambient temperature ranges, particularly in extremely cold or hot weather and helps assure maximum service life, according to Allison. TranSynd should be used in all transmissions equipped with the Allison retarder and it is the only full-synthetic oil approved by Allison for use in their transmission products."

http://www.stnonline.com/stn/nutsbolts/wilkinsontech/wilkins2_00.htm

"Customers may elect to use TranSynd

hoot

01-25-2003, 20:49

Greg, this ones for you.....

" As far as the new formula Mobil 1 (Super Syn) using a petroleum base stock- like Castrol started doing 3 years ago- I've been hearing rumblings about this subject for the last couple of months. Once the feds gave Castrol the OK to continue marketing Syntec as a full synthetic (even though the base stock- about 70% of the oil by content- is petroleum based) I had a sneaky hunch that other oil refiners wouldn't want to miss out on this cash cow. It's MUCH cheaper to produce and when the price to the consumer isn't reduced the oil company stands to reap windfall profits while the end purchaser (us) gets a slightly enhanced petroleum based oil for about 4 times the cost of conventional oil. And since the government has changed the definition of "synthetic" to include "petroleum based" oil the oil companies can still say, "It's synthetic", with a wink and a smile."

http://pub29.ezboard.com/ffz1ownersassociationfrm32.showMessage?topicID=248 .topic

hoot

01-25-2003, 20:54

-----------------------------------------------
When is a synthetic not a synthetic?

For years, the common definition of synthetic base oil was that it was manufactured by the chemical combination of small molecules to make the desired large molecule. However, other refining processes (hydroisomerization) have evolved that now can produce synthetic base oils through the chemical rearranging of hydrocarbon molecular structures. These new types of base oils have essentially similar performance, but cost about half as much.

Because the oil industry bases the rules applying to base oils on their performance rather than on any dictionary definition of the word synthetic, there are no technical requirements that disallow the new base oils (nor should they.) However, because of this lack of a technical definition for a "synthetic" base oil, the oil marketers are now free to use either base oil type in their "synthetic" oil formulations.

Recently, Mobil and Castrol went before the National Advertising Division of the Better Business Bureau. The NAD is a forum commonly used between marketers to resolve national advertising disputes, since it has a short time limit in which it must finish, it is a self-regulating body, non-binding, and avoids the far more serious FTC enforcements. Mobil claimed Castrol a) did not have the superior product that Castrol claimed and b) were misleading the public, since Castrol was using a hydroprocessed base oil in their synthetic oil product. The decision is at www.caru.org/nad99/0401.html

The outcome for part a) was that Castrol did not have the superior product that their advertising led consumers to believe and that they will have to modify their television advertising. These claims at issue were "superior engine protection" and "unique molecular bonding."

The outcome for part b) was that Castrol was allowed to continue to advertise their Castrol Syntec product as a synthetic oil formulation. The base oil used by Castrol met certain industry performance standards and due to the lack of a technical definition that differentiated between PAO and hydroprocessed base oils, they may continue.

There may be confusing advertising or dramatically new prices for "synthetic" engine oils as this works through the industry. Mobil manufactures PAOs and therefore has a vested interest in protecting the value of PAO products. They'll probably emphasize "PAO" and keep prices up. Castrol purchases all their base oils, and in reducing the cost of their products, will certainly continue to use hydroprocessed base oils. They may have to reduce the price of their product if the PAO campaign has any effect.

Which is better is not easy to predict without engine testing. In my opinion, a base oil that provides the low temperature properties desired for the coldest starting temperatures and also provides as much additive as possible is the best choice. (i.e. a diesel engine oil.) At this time, the technical community can't decide on which is better, and I'll agree with that!"
---------------------------------------------
http://www.viperclub.org/articles/oilfaq.html

Well I guess that clears everything up :eek:

[ 01-25-2003: Message edited by: hoot ]

SteveO

01-25-2003, 22:30

DmaxMaverick,

I have never seen anyone on this website state TranSynd was a superior or better product to Amsoil or Mobil.. GregL has for the past two years or more stated Amsoil was a better product and then went on to state that Transynd was not a TRUE Synthetic because of a Lawsuit that had absolutely nothing to do with TranSynd.. It had to do with MOTOR OIL>> Castrol Syntec.. The subject is ATF...

GregL

Would you provide me the Dexron III GM Approval # for Amsoil ATF?
Would you provide me the TES-295 Letter Of Certification from Allison for Amsoil ATF?

The Amsoil.com website states the ATF "meets" both, I have not found either approval... "Meets" and having the Approval # are two different things.. Does the API Label ring a bell?

One last thing>> I have looked at TranSynd and Amsoils MSDS sheets.. I noticed something.. Yes it clearly states on the TranSynd MSDS..

Under PartB
Ingredients Name
Distillates,Petroleum,Solvent_Refined, Light Paraffine

Cas Number 64741-89-5
% 1-5%

The thing that strikes me is the % at the end.. It's 1-5%, which to me means (I'm not a chemist) that the TOTAL amount of these products amounts to 1-5%.. What is the other 95-99%?? If the sheet "Declares" the product has 1-5% (Petroleum etc), then what is the other 95-99 made out of?

Now lets look at Amsoils MSDS...

Under Label Name> 100% Synthetic Universal Automatic Transmission Fluid

Under section 2
Composition/Information on Ingredients

1-Decene, Homopolymer, Hydrogenated Base, CAS# Mixture, 85-95%

What is the remaining 5-15%? If a product is 100% Synthetic then why did they list it as only being 85-95%?

[ 01-25-2003: Message edited by: SteveO ]

LanduytG

01-26-2003, 01:28

SteveO

No Amsoil does not have the approval letter for TES-295, and I can't tell you about any Dextron III approval number. But the subject here is weather or not Transynd is a PAO or not so as you have said in the past lets stay on subject.

Yes the lawsuit was over motor oil, not ATF, but don

DmaxMaverick

01-26-2003, 03:18

SteveO
Just pointing out that the quality of these products is in no way in question.

TES-295. Dexron III. CH/I-4. Etc. They are standards to be met in order for a lube product to perform in a specific manor under certain circumstances. An approval or licensing of the product is a bonus. Because a product is not listed or "approved" doesn't mean that the product is inferior to any other, or that a listed or "approved" product is better. I agree that it is comforting to know that a product is "approved" by the powers that be. Allison (GM) shows Amsoil 100% synthetic ATF as being on their "approved" list (C4-17071192). Of the hundreds of products on that list, only Transynd is noted as being "approved for extended drain intervals". As has been discussed here before, and as stated in Allison's documentation, this does not even apply to 3500's and below. The TES-295 requirement is in fact a moot point in this arguement. An owner of a 4500, 5500, etc. would be the only person to have any concern. Other very popular brands that I am sure are in use by several DP members are not on the list. This includes Royal Purple and RedLine. Both fine products, in spite of being unlisted.

I have wrenched on more than my share of engines and trannies and have yet to see an engine blow, or a tranny cook due to the BRAND of fluids used. Some have wore out sooner than others, but who's to say the oil was to blame? It is usually poor maintenance, and rarely, due to the wrong fluid.

What was the question? Oh, yeah. Is Transynd group IV or not? Does it matter? Maybe not. But we gotsta know. I rather not pass from this world with this ponderance still about me. Please don't make me file this one with the "chicken/egg" thing.

Someone here has gotta know someone that knows someone that has their hands on a white paper with the goods on it. I've run out of rocks to turn over.

hoot

01-26-2003, 07:40

One question on Amsoil.... They claim to be "First in Synthetics" I believe synthetic oils were first formulated in the 1800's. What year did Amsoil form as a company? 1972 I believe. I mentioned this to show how advertising can be deceptive.

The thing that stands out so far from all of this is the low temp capability of "pre-Shell" synthetics.

------------------quote---------------------------
Some years ago SHELL in Europe and specifically in then West Germany introduced Motor Oils that were manufactured from UHVI Petroleum Base stock that although made from conventional crude oil, was subjected to additional processing not common on "normal" or "typical" Base Oil production. These (UHVI = Ultra High Viscosity Index) Base Stock containing Motor Oils were labeled by SHELL as "Synthetic".
It was CASTROL with their Syntec

SteveO

01-26-2003, 10:58

DmaxMaverick,

I would like for anyone to show that I've stated Amsoil is a bad product..

I was only stating the Facts..

The approval # you gave us was for C4 Fluid, if you look what Fluid is approved for the 1000/2000-2400s you will find that C4 is a NON approved Fluid..
http://www.allisontransmission.com/documents/product/publications/pubs/GN3465EN.pdf

Quote from Allison Transmission 13-TR-90, Rev E

This is the Same TR Greg found the pour rating..

"C4 fluids are not approved for use in 1000/2000/2400 Series

ChevysRus

01-26-2003, 12:16

Well in those immortal words "frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn".

Yesterday was DMAX care giver day at my house.

Changed the oil (Delvac 5w-40) and AC filter and yes once again mine takes 11 qts to get to the top of the in range mark. Then it was lube the 8 zerks (I know there are 11, but I just can't get to those other 3 easily).

Then it was time for the dreaded tire rotation. Based on all the stories, I had put off doing this for 25K. Now was the momment of truth. Jacked up all 4 wheels, got out the impact gun, removed the caps and then the lugs, front came off easy enough, then the dreaded rears with the so called stuck hubs. Hey, mine fell off when the last nut was loose, what gives.

Then it occurred to me the problem was probably with steel wheels and I have the PYO's. So much for the urban legend. LOL

Then it was time to change the "old" TranSynd. I had changed to TranSynd about 10K previously. Put on the new filter with the wiped off magnet, and drained the fluid. Added 3 gallons, pulled the cooler line, attached the hose and had the wife start the truck........waited for the color to change.....waited......waited...beginning to worry now....waited some more and then panic. Shut it off, shut it off! Color never changed! Checked the fluid level and I was way down on the dipstick. Added the extra gallon of TransSynd I had and checked again, Still down about a gallon and I don't have another one!

I guess 10K isn't enough to cause the color to change. Beware when using TranSynd!

I'll have to go pick up a gallon of TranSynd on Monday to top this puppy off. Originally when this subject first came up, it was suggested to switch to TranSynd and let it run with the DEX mix and then to change it again at about 25K. Now this was for all those who changed over earlier than I did, but I wanted to use the 25K benchmark so I dumped it out even though it was probably good for another 75-100K. Now my Tranny fluid is probably 99.9% pure (dare I say Synthetic).

Like every other product in this world it all comes down to personal preference and if you have faith in your product then loyalty is a by-product. Until such time as something happens to make you change your mind. (I used to swear by Fram Filters, until you guys made me cut one open).

Cost of Synthetic is not the issue, if it was I would still be running the DEX and Dino and changing fluids more often. Probably still less expensive even with the additional changes for DEX vs TranSynd.

When I am out there on the road with my family, towing the trailer, I don't want any problems or issues. The added insurance of the deep pan, best filters and yes Best Fluids give me that extra level of comfort. Not to say something couldn't still happen, but I have done all I can to reduce the probability. Best fluids, best filters, regular maintenence and inspections, that's all I can do....

I like what I drive and I like the way I maintain it. Best is a difficult word, "one of the best" (relating to fluids, filters etc.) is probably the most accurate when combined with personal preference.

BEST is nothing more than a snapshot in time, a transitory illusion, today you were the best, tomorrow you are scum (ask OJ). Better analogy would be that new, best computer you bought 6 months ago, how does it stack up against todays marvels?

So bottom line is use what you like and keep on truckin!

LanduytG

01-26-2003, 13:17

SteveO

Just answer this last question and then I am going to leave it alone because your mind is made up and so is mine.

If Transynd is a PAO, why is -22*F on the chart? All other PAO's go another -40*F. And you can't say I pulled this from thin air because I gave the link plus it says Transynd right beside it.

As for approval numbers, I guess it is important for some and not for others. It has been and issue for 3 years now and I am still selling Amsoil ATF. I just got done looking at a bottle of Mobile ATF and it doesn't have and approval number either. All it says is its a "Superior Dextron III Product Which Meets and or Exceeds the Requirements". So I guess Mobile shouldn't be used since the approval numbers aren't on it.

I will never say that you said Amsoil was bad stuff as I think you can say that I have never said Transynd is bad, I just think their is better stuff than Transynd.
As for what brand is better, I don't think you have seen me beating my chest and going on and on how Amsoil is the best. If I weren

sdaver

01-26-2003, 14:47

Hey guys
I have used the dex three (it came in the truck) I flushed and changed to amsoils synthetic(hoot method). After changing I noticed more defueling in hot level 4 juice fifth gear...........stayed in it and bang it went wimp..........thoughT it might have been the result of the afe and cold air temps. Fifth gear would limp with hard accleration.........not good.....got to thinking that it did not do this with the dex 3 but I did not have the afe II.........Frustrated and confused I started researching the tranny upgrades....none are ready and proven......so what the heck I bought 6 gallons of transyd and a deep pan(so I could be like mac..haha)...Changed the fluid and pan (via the hoot method)and guess what!! my shifts are firmer and no more 5th gear limp....So I would agree that the amsoil is a slippery atf........possibly to slippery for my application..........and yes I realize there is probably some dex 3 and some amsoil still mixed in there but the bottom line is that its not limping fifth any more and theres some relief in Dixie. :D :D :D dave

SteveO

01-26-2003, 16:48

GregL,

I have no idea as to the reason for the Low Pour Temp.. Like I told you before, I'm not a Chemist.
BigAl posted all the info you need...

Mobil 1 ATF has a GM Dexron-III # it's F-30126 and it's listed as an approved ATF Fluid unlike Amsoil, which is listed as C4.. Look at the links above smile.gif
Allison paper is GN3465EN

QUOTE: From GregL
"I can

SteveO

01-26-2003, 17:39

ChevyRUS,

Sorry about the fluid mess.. Some can see the difference others can not... Sorry... I have always been able to see the color difference.. TranSynd has a Yellowish tint to it... Allison use to recommend Mobil 1 ATF (before TranSynd) and it was much darker, seemed to be easier to tell....

HOOT,

I got this from your Fluid Flush Notes..

QUOTE
No.. What I'm saying is after you have drained the fluid and replaced the spin-on filter you can remove the "From Cooler" line and install a short piece of hose into a bucket... From that point I hope you measured about how much fluid you took out of the trans including the filter... Now install the same amount +2-3 more quarts and start the truck up (it may take a few seconds for the fluid to start coming out so don't be alarmed if it does this) You should be able to tell when the Dexron III (Trucker tex better?) stops and the TranSynd starts. At that point cut the truck off and reinstall the Cooler Line.. Now crank the truck back up (check for leaks) and place it in Drive-Neutral-Reverse then back to PARK.. Do this a few times then check the Fluid level.. It should be on the "COLD FULL" line if not add Fluid until.. Then as idle chatter said, drive it around to get the trans temp up then check to see if it's at the HOT FULL mark if not add fluid..
END OF QUOTE

Did I post that?? I'm one of the only people that puts two periods at the end of a sentence that's why I asked..

See ya..

hoot

01-26-2003, 18:17

SteveO,

It might be your post. My notes are a compilation of posts I grabbed while I still could.

If you think it's yours, it probably is.

Superbowl is boring...

hoot

01-26-2003, 18:47

More oil info for those (me) that knew nothing about oil yesterday.....

--------------quote---------------------------

There are three fundamental types of basefluid: - a) mineral, b) modified mineral, and c) synthetic.

A) Mineral base fluids are essentially a selected fraction of crude oil with some components removed in order to improve performance. Every molecule present in the base stock is present in the crude oil. Typically this will be a mixture of several hundred different molecules.

B) Modified mineral oils, such as hydrocracked or hydrotreated basestocks, are produced from selected fractions of the refining process that undergo a severe treatment causing some of the molecules to rearrange. The resultant base stock will still contain many of the molecules that were present in the original crude oil. This type of material is likely to be more chemically and thermally stable than A).

C) Synthetic base stocks do not use molecules that were present in original crude oil. Instead the base stocks are synthesised by the chemical reaction of a very limited number of well-defined components. For example PAO's (polyalphaolefins) are derived from alpha-decene, and POE's (polyol esters) are synthesised from acids and alcohols. In this way the manufacture of synthetic base stocks can be tightly controlled and can provide performance that is equally tightly controlled to meet targeted performance. Synthetics can provide improved performance such as low temperature behaviour or high temperature cleanliness. This improved performance is obtained because of the nature of the synthetic molecule or the absence of unwanted components that are present in mineral oils.

Base stock selection from a formulatory perspective will depend upon the targets set from both a performance required and cost desired.
------------------endquote--------------------

http://www.eurocooling.com/articlesconferencecastrol.htm

LanduytG

01-26-2003, 19:06

SteveO

No Big Al did not post all I need. That was talking in circles and did not prove a thing. As for Mobile being approved that is wrong according to the approval list. To be approved the number must start with a "G" not "F" like Mobile does.
This is the link to that.
http://www.allisontransmission.com/documents/product/13-TR-90,%20Rev%20E.pdf

Now you say that I said Amsoil had the approval letter. Are you sure of this? I believe what I said was Amsoil has submitted what ever it is they submit and are awaiting approval. Now that show I remember it.

We can go around and around about this, but the fact is neither one of us have solid proof. I know if I had it I would be showing it and I am sure if you did you would be too.

Greg

hoot

01-26-2003, 19:07

Greg,

Mobil 1 is advertised PAO based but does not recommend extended drain intervals.

mackin

01-26-2003, 19:26

Do all these Transmission OILS (Mobil,Transynd,Amsoil) consist of the same viscosity???

I'm still bewildered that limp mode was inherited by a fluid swap .... :confused:

MAC

LanduytG

01-26-2003, 19:57

mackin

Not sure what caused that to happen. Yes the viscocity is in the 7.5-7.6 range of all above mentioned oils.

Greg

SteveO

01-26-2003, 20:11

GregL,

Quote: By GREGL
Amsoil ATF meets and exceeds the TES-295 spec. But it has not been approved YET for the Allison for extended warranty. But for those with the Duramax this is not a issue because the extended warranty is not available from Allison for this application. As far as Amsoil being comparable to Transyd is price, thats just not true. the last I heard Transyd was 28.50 a gallon and Amsoil is 20.45 a gallon. The Amsoil ATF is going to be approved by Allison, its just a matter of when. If you go to mdrags link http://www.allisontransmission.com/documents/product/publications/pubs/GN3465EN.pdf you will see that Amsoil is listed as C-4 approved in the Allsion. C-4 is and off road spec. that is tuffer than the TES-295 spec. If its good enough for off road equipment its good enough for the the Duramax. Another point is that Amsoil warranties the fluid, if it causes a failure then Amsoil will pay for the repair. By the time all the politics are ironed out between Allison and Amsoil know one will care anyway.
END QUOTE:

Sorry C-4 is a low classification.. It's not TUFF at all and is DEFINENTLY not tougher than TES-295. Fluid drain intervals are 12K for most, that's far from the 100K for Extended... IT's MOTOR OIL....
That post is VERY Funny...

http://forum.thedieselpage.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=7&t=003302&p=
-----------------------------

QUOTE: By GregL,
I called tech today to find out the status of the Amsoil ATF for the Allison. It does meet all the TES-295 spec and can be used. But for those that have the Allsion exstended warranty it still has not been approved. It is however in the process of being approved by Allison. As wheel all know the wheels of progress move slowly.
End Of Quote

http://forum.thedieselpage.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=7&t=002942

The above was posted in May of 02.. Do you have the letter yet?
-------------------------------
Lets see>>>

QUOTE: BigAl posted on the First page..
TranSynd is a pure synthetic. Let me say that again................TranSynd is a pure synthetic.

It is not a "blend" and it is not made from hydrocracked or hydrotreated Group III base oils as has been implied by persons posting to this thread. TranSynd is manufactured with only Group IV base oils (All polyalphaolefins or PAOs) as defined by the American Petroleum Institute (API). API base oil groups are defined by their Sulfur Content, %Saturates, and Viscosity Index. Sulfur content and % saturates are factors in oil service life and Viscosity Index defines how much the viscosity (thickness of the oil or resistance to flow) changes with respect to a change in temperature. Group IV base oils (such as those used in TranSynd) contain lower sulfur, more saturates, and higher Viscosity Index than do lubricants made from Group I, II, and III oils. This means that engine oils and/or transmission fluids made with Group IV base oils tend to give longer service lives and less viscosity change than do lubricants made from Group I, II, and III base oils. If you're really into this stuff, I'll bet there is an API website somewhere which would provide you with even more detail.
End QUOTE:

From GregL>>"That was talking in circles and did not prove a thing."

Your kidding right??

[ 01-26-2003: Message edited by: SteveO ]

SteveO

01-26-2003, 20:32

GregL,

Bottom line>> If you did not (and still do not)have proof, documentaion, letter, website, or what ever that TranSynd is Group III or Not a True Synthetic, WHY did you say it's not a True Synthetic and Amsoil is better in the first place??????????????????????????????

I never brought up the FACT that Amsoil does not have a Dexron III GM# until you pushed me too.. I have known this for awhile......

I do not have the authority to give out any more information than I (or BigAl) have posted already... If, or when, I do, I will bring it to your attention...

[ 01-26-2003: Message edited by: SteveO ]

LanduytG

01-26-2003, 20:51

SteveO

Why are you so hung up on the approval thing. You have it right in front of you. i never did say it was approved did I? All I said its coming, who knows when if ever. I think the discussion is PAO or Group III right?

Greg

SteveO

01-26-2003, 21:00

GregL,

Why,, Because you insist on making claims you can not provide documentation or to be Fact, that's VERY misleading to forum members and potential customers...

Does that answer your question?

LanduytG

01-26-2003, 21:39

SteveO

Quote: By GREGL
Amsoil ATF meets and exceeds the TES-295 spec. But it has not been approved YET for the Allison for extended warranty.

QUOTE: By GregL,
I called tech today to find out the status of the Amsoil ATF for the Allison. It does meet all the TES-295 spec and can be used. But for those that have the Allsion exstended warranty it still has not been approved. It is however in the process of being approved by Allison. As wheel all know the wheels of progress move slowly.
End Of Quote

How have I mislead anyone about the TES-295 approval. You have in your post what I said. How is it misleading?

If I have mislead anyone I hope they stand up and say so, and if I have it was not intentional.

Greg

[ 01-26-2003: Message edited by: LanduytG ]

ChevysRus

01-26-2003, 22:40

Steve O

On the color thing, I was changing TranSynd I had in the tranny for about 10K over to new TransSynd. I was saying that the 10K old TranSynd did not see a color difference from the new TranSynd. In other words for 10K the TranSynd did not get dirty or change color. Old looked as good as the new stuff. I think it's great stuff and will use it again in 100+K ha ha ha LOL. If you figure it goes 3x longer than anything else then the cost is only $10 per gallon when you consider the savings over regular DEX or other substitutes.

On the other hand if you want pure TranSynd yoiu need to do the second drain and fill after a few K to get the "Mix" of Dex out. Maybe 97-98% is OK after the first drain and fill, but the second drain and fill like I just did should get me as close to 100% as possible. Some might think it's a waste of $90, but I am more comfortable knowing all that DEX is out of there now and The Tranny fluid is 99.999% pure TranSynd and I can go as long as I want on the next change....well 100K or 150K and maybe 200K, but I will probably change it again before all that.

Thanks for all the great info and reinforcing my switch to TranSynd.

BigAl

01-27-2003, 08:57

Goodness....................is anybody's head hurting as bad as mine??? (And no, I am not hung over from my Super Bowl party!!!)

I am not an Engineer!

I am not a Chemist!

I am not a Salesman!

In the immortal words of a dear friend of mine, "I'm just a poor country boy tryin' to get by in this World!"

I have told you what I know. I was not attempting to run anyone around (Just the facts, M'am, just the facts!) I said, categorically, that Transynd uses a Group IV base. No one had "proven" that to me. It merely comes from an unimpeachable source. Could they be wrong.............maybe. Could they be lying...............maybe, but I sincerely doubt it. I suspect the reason Castrol has not chimed in on this is due to the fact they would almost have to reveal their formulation to prove the claim, and if I understand my "sources" correctly, formulations are as closely guarded as Aunt Minnie's pie dough recipe. So all the doubting Thomases out there who are waiting for this "proof" may be waiting for a while. :(

Now, those who have read me before will remember I have said on several occasions that, while synthetics are generally "goodness", MOST people don't need them, and would/will be money ahead to just use Dexron and change it per the manufacturer's recommendations.

The only people who MIGHT benefit from use of ANY synthetic are those folks who are really working their trucks/transmissions. "Work" I define as heavy hauling/towing, extended use on grades/hills, and operation in areas where transmission fluids run exceptionally hot on a consistent basis (Over 225 degrees F). And even then, a person would have to run the calculations to establish the cost benefits. As has been said, to a great degree it is a personal choice, and I believe that whatever allows you to sleep well at night is the right decision for YOU.

So, you can see that I don't really give one rip one way or the other. What I DO care about is that this Forum remains a means whereby people who don't have access to certain information CAN get access to it. What is/has been going on here is a debate carried on mostly by an individual who is "picking" on every single angle they can to shed doubt on Transynd. On occasion, he raises some good questions (like the one about "pourpoint".........more on that later, cause I'm runnin' out of steam!).

Now, you didn't think I'd read all this stuff and not chime in, did you?!?!?!?!?!?! Here's a shot over the bow, as it were...............again, Just the facts, M'am!

Amsoil's website says they "meet" TES295
4, and a particular individual has stated vociferously (look it up!) that Amsoil is awaiting approval to that specification. I ask the following: Has Amsoil completed the testing required under TES 303 and TES 304 in order to demonstrate their oil's performance??? HINT: Don't tell anyone what those "specs" are or mean..............if Amsoil has indeed submitted their oil for "approval", LanduytG ought to be able to tell us what they are. Right????? Cause they have submitted their results for approval, and it's "......just a matter of time". Right????

One last question.............if "approval" isn't a "big deal", why is Amsoil (or anyone else, for that fact) bothering???

:confused:

[ 01-27-2003: Message edited by: BigAl ]

Diesel Freak

01-27-2003, 09:21

I can't believe I just wasted 30 minutes of my life reading this, why don't you two step out behind the barn and settle this?

hoot

01-27-2003, 09:38

Actually it's all good stuff.

I really learned alot about oil in my searching for answers to these questions.

Let's sum it up.

Greg says Amsoil ATF is better than Castrol Transyd.
Greg is insinuating that Castrol Transynd is not PAO (polyalphaolefins) group IV Base stock but is group III.

Greg has yet to show any documentation that says Castrol is using the same base stock as they use in Syntec. The lawsuit was about Castrol Syntec and Mobil 1. Nothing to do with ATF of anybodies brand.

BigAL says Castrol Transynd is PAO based.

In conclusion.......

Regardless of anything that was said here....

Amsoil Company openly claims PAO base stock.
Castrol does not.

My only guess is if Castrol Transynd is PAO based, they don't want to advertise that it's better than the group III they use in Syntec so as not to step on their other huge selling product.

After searching these issues I have found that Amsoil has the internet covered quite well.

ItsMrBill

01-27-2003, 09:52

I have a friend who is a chemist and have emailed him with some of the information that I have read here.

In response to the following:

"I have looked at TranSynd and Amsoils MSDS sheets.. I noticed something.. Yes it clearly states on the TranSynd MSDS..

Under PartB
Ingredients Name
Distillates,Petroleum,Solvent_Refined, Light Paraffine

Cas Number 64741-89-5
% 1-5%

The thing that strikes me is the % at the end.. It's 1-5%, which to me means (I'm not a chemist) that the TOTAL amount of these products amounts to 1-5%.. What is the other 95-99%?? If the sheet "Declares" the product has 1-5% (Petroleum etc), then what is the other 95-99 made out of?

Now lets look at Amsoils MSDS...

Under Label Name> 100% Synthetic Universal Automatic Transmission Fluid

Under section 2
Composition/Information on Ingredients

1-Decene, Homopolymer, Hydrogenated Base, CAS# Mixture, 85-95%

What is the remaining 5-15%? If a product is 100% Synthetic then why did they list it as only being 85-95%?"

The CAS (Chemical Abstract Service) is a unique number assisgned to a substance and cataloged into a registry database. In a nutshell, This number provides a reliable common link between various nomenclature to describe the substance.

I used a tool called ChemFinder.

http://chemfinder.cambridgesoft.com/

However there are others available that will also do a CAS search for you. Some of these you must subscribe to.

This sofware will allow you to reference a databe and look up these items by their names, weights and CAS number.

For the CAS number 64741-89-5, it is a paraffinic distillate and from what was metioned earlier in this post, that TranSynd only contains 1-5% of this.

For the Amsoil reference there was no CAS number mentioned or perhaps it is the same as TranSynd (64741-89-5). Maybe someone would have this.

Hopefully my friend that is a chemist, that is if he still works at the same company, will email me with a reply.

LanduytG

01-27-2003, 09:59

Well I owe SteveO, Big Al and anyone else a big apology. After getting all the Monday morning calls out of the why I set out to prove that Transynd was a Group III oil. I new that a sample could be taken and tested to show what it was, but I did not know what test was needed. I was talking with the head of technical sales and he told me what test was needed and cost. By the way you do and inferred test. At the end he asked what oil I wanted to test so I told him Transynd and told him the whole story. Well he said right away that I didn

Kennedy

01-27-2003, 10:20

What this more or less proves is that "straight from the horses mouth" is often the best source for information! :eek:

FWIW, I have had Transynd and the deep pan on my truck for well over 25k now. I forget exactly when I changed it, but right around 5k rings a bell. If I were not "testing" it as I am, perhaps I would run a Dex III synthetic...

Diesel Freak

01-27-2003, 10:32

Greg, that was mighty big of you post that, in person I'd shake your hand. Now let's all have a big group hug :D

One thing that I do wonder about, and I surely am not insuating anything is this: Why is the Transyd only good down to -22? And does that really matter for those of us that see temps below that?

mackin

01-27-2003, 10:44

And to add to Diesel Freak's request,one more question, why the possibility of a tranny when pushed hard with a different tranny fluid characteristic went LIMP????

MAC

This was a very informative thread......
smile.gif

[ 01-27-2003: Message edited by: mackin ]

hoot

01-27-2003, 10:52

Excellent thread guys. Good, wholesome arguement with a conclusion acceptable to all.

Greg,

I met you at the 2001 Rendezvous and I knew there that you were a good man.

HDLD

01-27-2003, 11:24

Well, since my truck wouldn't start this morning I thought I'd weight in on this one and drafted a response only to learn it's solved now!

This is great news as I'm scheduled to switch over this week. I'm not a fan of Castrol, though, that's for sure.

Also, from their site: Castrol

Black Dog

01-27-2003, 11:25

"And to add to Diesel Freak's request,one more question, why the possibility of a tranny when pushed hard with a different tranny fluid characteristic went LIMP????"

All of this debate has been about the characteristics of the "oil" part of the ATF. ATF needs to provide lubricity for the pump and the bearings in the tranny, and also friction to keep the clutches from slipping. It is a trade off. The additives that provide the friction are the most important part, IMO. Anyone can make a full synthetic oil that has good viscosity index, and doesn't burn at high temps. I will trust the tranny manufacturer to provide the best additive package for the clutches.

Oh, and SteveO, thanks for taking the time contribute to this debate. I am pretty sure you are not here because you enjoy this type of debate, and I am sure you are not here to try and help Allison sell more ATF. It is becoming clear that the life of the fluid is not the only important factor in selecting a fluid. Maybe the life and performance of the tranny should be a consideration also.

[ 01-27-2003: Message edited by: Black Dog ]

SteveO

01-27-2003, 11:30

GregL,

No apology needed.. I thought we both put up a great fight...

See ya in Montana?

Steve Overcash

LanduytG

01-27-2003, 11:50

Well one thing is for sure if I think I am right I won't quit. But I am man enough to admit when I am wrong.

This has taught me something and thats NOT to take anothers word for something. Investigate completely be sounding out. I should have asked the right person in the first place. But misinformation can show up anywhere.

A very dear friend of mine told me this once, as he was helping me get out of a serious jam.

"In our judgment of men we like to be aware of what is reputation, and what is character. A man of reputation can soon be disrespected. I man of charactor can make a mistake, and still be respected."

Now what else can we debate? :D

Greg

[ 01-27-2003: Message edited by: LanduytG ]

BigAl

01-27-2003, 11:55

LanduykG,

Apology not necessary, but accepted! smile.gif smile.gif smile.gif

Diesel Freak,

I'm still researching the -22 thing.....give me some time...............and I agree with your observation that it takes a big man to admit he was wrong.

mackin,

It's difficult to say what may have happened, and I certainly don't want my comments to start another "war of words". All I can say is that automatic transmission manufacturers have special formulations which make their trannys shift smoothly and live long (and prosper, Yuk Yuk). This includes clutch frictional characteristics, which are critical to shift "feel" and longevity. GM has recommended the use of Dexron for YEARS, knowing that their trannys were/are designed to work well with it. Ford and DCX do the same, and none of them recommends the other's oil. Much like we have already said, this doesn't mean that Ford's oil is "better" than any other. It just means that you should use what the manufacturer recommends, and that will manifest itself either as a licensed brand, or a specification.

For whatever reason, your tranny didn't "like" the other oil. The good news is you corrected the situation. :D

BigAl

01-27-2003, 12:52

Diesel Freak,

The -22 degrees F came off of an Allison Service Bulletin (13TR90) which talks about Recommended Fluids for Allison Transmission products.

The specific reference comes from the area where pre-heating is recommended at certain ambient temperatures when using different fluid types. This bulletin encompasses ALL of Allison's products, so the information contained is very broad-based.........but the pre-heat table in the bulletin lists 0W-20 (Arctic Oil) and/or TranSynd as -22 degrees F as the point at which a pre-heat is recommended by Allison.

General Motors (and Allison, by association) tends to be very conservative when it comes to Service issues. My guess is the pre-heat recommendation for TranSynd was simply "lumped" with the Arctic Oils, since it is fairly well documented that PAO's are "good" to a much lower temperature, and we now know that TranSynd is a PAO.

On perhaps a more pertinent point, if you are parking your D/A equipped 2500HD outside in temperatures at or lower than -22F, take a look at the pre-heat recommendations for, say, 15W-40 (+5F), or a 10W (-4F). You probably got some "other" opportunities beyond the tranny. And remember, the issue being addressed with the pre-heat recommendation is engine cranking (or the ability to start the bloomin' thing!!), not transmission durability, or even extended oil change intervals.

:rolleyes:

svpdiesel

01-27-2003, 16:09

Since I was one of the original doubters on this thread, and was unable to find documentation one way or the other, I will say that I am glad to see resolution from Greg. It must have hurt for him to post that admission, and hats off to him for doing so...

big dipper

01-27-2003, 16:14

I know I was not the only one here who used another fluid on the account of Transynd not being a true synthetic......or was I?

imported_

01-27-2003, 16:19

I think it is discusions like this one that make me LOVE this forum. I belong to three other internet forums and this one is by far the best. The arguements had here rarely get off topic, always need techno babble to back them up, and for the most part everyone remains civil and respects others opinion. Hats off to all!!

mackin

01-27-2003, 17:30

Thanks Big Al and SteveO......

You guys really are an asset to this BB......

MAC smile.gif

big dipper ,

Me too.....

sonofagun

01-29-2003, 17:04

To all who participated:

Gotta say AMAZING!! Good on ya Greg to set it straight and Steve and Big Al for saying you're OK. I've been using Transyd (pull hard and heavy in the mountains in the summer) and believe it is the right choice.

Thanks to all.

Bob

Tsckey

01-29-2003, 20:57

This was truly an inspiring thread to follow. Not only was a tremendous amount of information exchanged, but firmly held convictions were advanced and defended without name-calling, insults or sarcasm. And at the end when Greg had to confront his mistake, he did it with unflinching grace and courage. I'm honored to be a paying member of the Diesel Page and to be able to associate (electronically, at least) with such a terrific bunch of enthusiasts.

TC

56Nomad

02-01-2003, 13:36

I hate to beat a dead horse..... but I have re-read this excellent string
and can't find an answer to Greg's question:

LanduytG wrote:

"By the way I can't find the link for the TES-295 approval list. Anyone have it?"

Perhap's it has been answered already, but which specific lubricants have
been given the TES-295 approval letter by Allison for our transmissions?

mackin

02-01-2003, 14:06

http://www.allisontransmission.com/documents/product/13-TR-90,%20Rev%20E.pdf

http://www.allisontransmission.com/servlet/DownloadFile?Dir=publications/pubs&FileToGet=GN3465EN.pdf

MAC

56Nomad

02-01-2003, 16:04

mackin and all....

http://www.allisontransmission.com/documents/product/13-TR-90,%20Rev%20E.pdf

This site outlines that Transynd and Dexron III are the only
specific lubricants for our model Allisons.

http://www.allisontransmission.com/servlet/DownloadFile?Dir=publications/pubs&FileToGet=GN3465EN.pdf

This site makes no mention of a TES-295 specific equivalent lubricant for extended Allison
warrenty for the Allison 1000 series.

So again...... At this time it appears that, Transynd is the only
synthetic lubricant that Allison will cover with respect to extended warrenty issues.

Amsoil, great product that it is, will be warrentied by Amsoil, but not
by Allison for the extended warrenty issues.

I am missings something?