Duramax into 1989 Toyota FJ75 Troopcarrier?

Hi everyone.

I have a 1989 FJ75 Toyota Troopcarrier and I am considering converting it to a Duramax 6.6. I know of an engine that is available but have no prices yet, I have just been told they are expensive.

A little about my Troopy. It was a 3F Toyota 6 with a 5 speed manual. I converted it, doing all the work except the exhaust and some welding of mounts myself, to an EFI 5.7 litre Holden duel fuel (petrol and LPG) engine. I want to be able to travel around Australia and to be realistic I need a reliable diesel to do it because LPG isn't available everywhere.

My question is, and yes I realize most people here are from the USA, what type of prices should I expect to pay for a Duramax with all its add-ons (power steer pump, alternator etc) and an Allison 6 speed auto? If I go down this path do I really need a "donor" vehicles dash etc or it there a neat and tidy way to graft these new engines into old tech vehicles without alot of pain and anguish? Many people in Australia say the job is just to hard and you really need to cut alot of stuff out of a donor vehicle for it to work, is this true? I am well aware that it has been done into older GM vehicles and the job has a very professional outcome but these are all GM vehicles, mine isn't.

Thanks in advance for any advice offered.
Michael.

P.S. If it is as hard as people suggest I'll probably just go for a P400/T700R4 combination from AM General.

Hi Storm
Welcome to the Dieselpage
How are your mechanical/fab skills?
Can you find your way around the modern electronic computer systems?
I would like to have a Dmax/Allie combo in something,but the modern electronic computer stuff is not my freind in any way.So i will stick to the mechanical easy to work on stuff.I'd feel comfortable driving anywhere with a new AM general P400.
The p400 will bolt right in if the Holden 5.7 is a true GM engin.
Freight for a engin should be less than a complete doner truck from over here.
There maybe some stand alone computers and wiring avilibale,but from what i`v read getting the complete doner truck is the way to go.

I`m sure that you are about to get all kinds of great info to help you decide.
Good luck on your project.
Thomas

Hi Yukon

Thanks for your reply. I'm a mechanic by trade (26 years). My problem is I have limited experience with new age diesels. I am fine with electronics, the current engine is controlled by a Delco 808 which I tune with a laptop, but I prefer plug and play setups if I can find it.

The Holden is a true GM engine, late model engines have the turbo bolt pattern etc but it isn't a Chev copy.

I like the idea of a P400/T700R4 combo but I really like the idea of a Duramax/Allison.

Assuming you have the hardware (engine/trans/misc), there are a couple companies, like www.pacificp.com (PPE) and www.bankspower.com (Banks) that produce custom wiring harness and computer packages that make it simpler, but their kits are relatively expensive.

Try to locate a bundled "package", that contains the hardware/electrical you need. Occasionally, you can find a salvage dealer or someone who lost interest who are offering package deals. But, for those who can find them, a salvage truck saves them both time and money. While we tend to look at the engine/trans as the big buys, all of the little things add up to about the same cost. Little things would include items like wiring harnesses (~$600 each, need 2-3), computers/modules (4-5 of them for a complete system), complete steering column, radiator (~$700), intercooler (~$700), intercooler hoses/pipes/clamps (~$600), lower radiator hose ($~150), and on and on.... you get the point - ask me how I know what these things cost... I got a screaming deal on the engine/trans, but the little things really ran the cost up.

People have gotten the engine to run on their shop floor without being in a vehicle, just by connecting the harnesses/computers/fuel/batteries. So, just do the same thing with it bolted into your chassis. Other than vehicle lighting, plan on swapping in the complete Duramax wiring system. Once you make that leap of stripping-out the original FJ75 wiring system, the project actually gets easier.

Jim

Hi Jim thanks for the information.

Basically there is no easy way to do the wiring then. I will have to use a complete loom from a donor vehicle. Please correct me if I a wrong. And thing like the steering column must also be changed. Hmmmm. I'll do more research. The level of work doesn't worry me, the costs do though.

I'll contact the suppliers you mention and see what they say regarding prices.

Thanks again.
Michael.

The word "easy" is a relative term. What might be easy for one person could be difficult or impossible for another. It sounds like you have more than enough technical skill. A good basic knowledge of automotive electrical and mechanical systems, a basic ability to do some light fabrication (or hire it done) and a will to see a project through are most of what's required (other than money, of course ;)).

But, after having done it once, I know it's not really all that difficult. I wouldn't necessarily call it easy, but not all that difficult. When I did mine, no one had completed a Duramax 6600/Allison conversion in a GM pickup. In fact, only one company had done it for any vehicle before me, and that was for an H1 Hummer. I didn't need their help, but it was a big risk for me.

The biggest hurdle for me personally was concluding that, to make it simpler, I needed to strip out most of the original vehicle wiring. The truck I used was pretty nice already, and I knew that if I failed, the stripping would kill the value. It took me about 6 months to finally make the decision. I really didn't want to fail. Once I made the decision, the project was completed in about 4 months. I had a plan, and made my own itemized list that I worked on step by step, one to three hours per day - in a logical order.

I adapted the original HVAC (Heating, Venting, Air Conditioning) system and control panel to the new Duramax in-cab wiring harness. Otherwise, not much wiring was left that wasn't Duramax related.

The Duramax steering column will save you a lot of time and allow for all of the trick features in the column to function in your Toy. I did it the hard way (modified my existing column), which added a couple weeks to the project and resulted in less functionality. I did it to show that it could be done, and to learn whether it's better to use the matching Duramax column. Now I know.

Making the commitment is the hardest part. The rest is "easy". :)

If your looking for reliability, whats wrong with the 6cyl diesel that some of them came with. Very few of the diesels were imorted over here, but the ones that were seem to be bullet proof. Should be lots of them over there.

Granted they won't have the umph that the LT1/LS3??? has or no where near that of a Dmax or even the 6.5 but do you really need it? Another thing to consider, especially if your doing any off roading, is your axles. The Dmax can lay down some really impressive torque values. Is the rest of your running gear up to the task? I have the LT1 in a Cadillac and even a stock 6.5 can out twist it any day of the week.

Just some thoughts.

Bill

Hi Jim, thanks again for your post. You have given me much food for thought. I'll sit down and plan a way through it and then decide if it is feasible or not.

Hi Bill, thanks for your post. My 350 (5.7) Holden is nothing like an LS1-2-3-7, I wish it was. Having blown a rear diff apart with the old 4 litre 3F I am very well aware how weak the drive train can be. I have never had an issue with the 300HP I currently have though. It is smooth as silk and my boy racer days are long gone now I no longer have my 1977 Trans Am (genuine Bandit). I used to work on Toyotas at a dealership and while I admit they are a good engine (the 1hd-t is brilliant) they just don't have the power and economy I am after. The new v8 while it is only 4.5 litres is nice but there are some horror stories coming through to and it there are reports that it is quite thirsty when loaded. I am willing to sacrifice power but I am not willing to sacrifice reliability nor am I willing to sacrifice economy. If I can get equal or better economy from a P400 or a Duramax than I can from a 1hd-t or a 4.5 v8 diesel then I'll go the P400 or Duramax.

Don't know about the availability over there, but have been hearing some very good things about the V6 CRD Mercedes engine. A tad more powerful than a stock 6.5 turbo but way better fuel economy. Used here in everything from the Mercedes running shoe (the SUV) to the Sprinter vans. I believe they have been made since 2003 when they finally retired the 3 liter L5.

Is your current engine the Holden specific V8? Had no idea they were available in a 350. Thought that only happened after 2000 when they started using the LS engines made here in Canada.

The 6.2/6.5 NA engines are rated at .43-.45 lbs/shp/hr. Believe the turbo versions were a little thirstier. Equivalent trucks/gearing etc. with the 6.5 Turbo chewed up another 2-3 MPG more than the NA version. The Dmax are thirstier by far in stock trim (can't find any specific fuel consumption figures) but than they are installed in much larger trucks. Should be able to tweak the computer more with the Dmax though, and in that size of vehicle, should give really good mileage.

Bill

I've heard some good things about Euro diesels but I have also seen some shockers. Despite Ford Australia's advertising campaign about the "new" Territory diesel V6 being Australian designed and made it isn't. If I was going to do a euro diesel it would probably be the BMW from the X5 with its 6 (or is it 8) speed auto. Those things hum along but when they have a problem the bill to repair them is bigger than the engine.

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Originally Posted by convert2diesel

Is your current engine the Holden specific V8? Had no idea they were available in a 350. Thought that only happened after 2000 when they started using the LS engines made here in Canada.

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My engine is the 220i from 1999. There were 215kw versions in previous models as far back as 1995. I did my training on Holdens.

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Originally Posted by convert2diesel

The 6.2/6.5 NA engines are rated at .43-.45 lbs/shp/hr. Believe the turbo versions were a little thirstier. Equivalent trucks/gearing etc. with the 6.5 Turbo chewed up another 2-3 MPG more than the NA version. The Dmax are thirstier by far in stock trim (can't find any specific fuel consumption figures) but than they are installed in much larger trucks. Should be able to tweak the computer more with the Dmax though, and in that size of vehicle, should give really good mileage.

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My Troopy weighs in an about 2500 kilos, I can get 18 mpg (our gallon is 4.5 litres not 3.9 something like the US) from the Holden engine on LPG and that's hovering around 2100 RPM with 35" tall BFG Mud Terrains. I'm happy with that but you can't get LPG in the outback. Thus the desire for a rock solid reliable diesel of similar or greater HP.

I emailed Peninsula last night my time because none of the Australian suppliers have replied to my emails to them. I turned my laptop on this morning before the sun come up and Matt Koning (I think that's the correct spelling) giving me prices and availability. I'm impressed with his promptness. He said the P400 won't fit due to the extended main girdle. I think it will because my car has a 2" suspension lift but I will do some measuring anyway. I did the Holden conversion 10 years ago and the Holden was just a long block with no ancillaries, the added cost of the ancillaries brought the price up to just under what Peninsula have quoted for a brand new Optimizer 6500 with all the ancillaries. I am very impressed to say the least.

One of the 5 Australian suppliers just gave me a call and gave me a price for an Optimizer 6500 that is cheaper than Peninsula. The engine is in Australia or I can pay another $900 AU for an Optimizer with a steel crank. He said his supplier is US Engine Works in New York, who are they and are their engines ok? This is apparently a brand new serpentine fronted engine with all ancillaries.

Does anyone have a price comparison between a complete Optimizer and a P400? Not one supplier has given me a price on a P400 yet.

The issue here is that the two come from different companies. The Optimizer is an AMG engine while the P400 is specific to Penninsular. The P400 is a modified Optimizer and was designed as a marine engine. The truck guys have leaped on the P400 because of the bearing girdle.

The P400 is designed to operate at over 75% all the time, with boost pressures that would dynomite a stock 6.5. They can do that in a boat due to the unlimited supply of cooling water and that the engine is normally operated at a constant speed.

If your expecting a 6.5 to leap tall buildings, the only way your going keep it glued together is with significant structural modifications, like the girdle. If you lean towards the conservative on your go-fast mods, the Optimizer will probably outlast your truck. Between AMG and International they seem to have corrected all the structural problems with this engine.

MPG (L/100kms) is all aerodynamics. When I did the Buick conversion, we also owned an 89 GMC pickup. Both used the same engine and tranny, both were spinning about the same on the highway and both tipped the scales within 200 lbs. of each other. The truck consistantly got 26-28 MPG (your gallons) while the Buick could be depended on to get 37-38 MPG.

Never got the opportunity to get them both in a windtunnel but by working the specific fuel consumption figures backward, it would appear that the Buick needed on the average of about 25 flywheel HP while the truck needed close to 40. The drop in fuel mileage at different speeds was significant in the truck while the Buick was far more tolerant of my 70MPH habit.

Hope this helps.

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Originally Posted by convert2diesel

The issue here is that the two come from different companies. The Optimizer is an AMG engine while the P400 is specific to Penninsular. The P400 is a modified Optimizer and was designed as a marine engine. The truck guys have leaped on the P400 because of the bearing girdle.

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Ah ok, I was under the impression AMG built both and sold both through authorised outlets.

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Originally Posted by convert2diesel

If your expecting a 6.5 to leap tall buildings, the only way your going keep it glued together is with significant structural modifications, like the girdle.

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I don't expect it to leap tall buildings but being able to climb a very big sand hill (with the right tyre pressures and suspension setup) or rock face is high on my list of priorities. Having seen many stock and modified OEM Toyota's and Nissan's fail at this I don't want to waste money, time and effort setting this up the wrong way for it's intended purpose.

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Originally Posted by convert2diesel

If you lean towards the conservative on your go-fast mods, the Optimizer will probably outlast your truck. Between AMG and International they seem to have corrected all the structural problems with this engine.

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Whatever engine I choose may get a supercharger in the future that will be the extent of my "go fast mods". I am not a fan of turbos.

My feeling with fuel consumption is if I can keep the 18 mpg or even get better like some people over here are saying they get (up to 24 mpg) I'll be a very happy chappy. That is of course on the open road at a cruise speed of 100km/h (about 65 miles/h). There are people claiming 18 mpg when towing caravans and horse floats in similar vehicles. That is a claim I am taking with a pinch of salt.

In my town Petrol is $1.49.9 a litre (approximately 1 US quart), LPG has just gone down to $0.84 a litre, and Diesel is still hanging around $1.50 -$1.55 a litre. LPG is much cheaper, this is why I run all my petrol vehicles as duel fuel and have always had great reliability with LPG. This vehicle is going to be a tourer and a tow truck for horse floats etc (maybe even a camper trailer). On both Petrol and LPG fuel consumption sky rockets when towing down to 12 mpg or so.

I really appreciate all the information you are posting, it is helping to make the choice easier. I think I may go for the Optimzer that is in Perth Australia for $13000 ($AU). Peninsula quoted $14700 plus $1100-$1400 for shipping to my closest port($US), on top of that I will have to pay 10% GST(in $AU). The maths is making the choice a no brainer at this point in time. I do still like the idea of a P400 even if it is just for strength of the assembly but everyone is saying the Optimizer is an excellent choice and is very well suited to what I want.

The turbocharged 6.5L P400 was actually designed by AMG for their latest HMMWV.

With different heads (to accept the on-road intake manifold) and a modified oil pan, it'll also work in a pickup truck or Suburban. Peninsular marinizes them using wet exhaust manfolds, air/water charge-cooler and a watercooled turbocharger.

The P400 needs no beefing for any fuel rate capable of being produced by a DB2/DB4/DS4, assuming an appropriate turbocharger is being used.

If GM had developed the P400 in the early 1990s, they would have at least had an equal share in the diesel pickup market...

Jim

Thats why these boards are so good. Had no idea that AMG was responsible for the P400. Always associated it with Penninsular. Makes a great marine engine.

Bill

I got an email from Peninsula this morning about the P400 after I asked some more questions. The P400 is a rather specific engine the main point that come up is that there are no oversized pistons available for the P400 so I am assuming if you need to rebuild you will have to sleeve the block and re-use the old pistons. The Optimizer has oversized pistons available at 20 and 30 thou oversized. This says to me that some parts are not interchangeable.

I will do some more research and post what I find out as I go along.

This is the email I got from Peninsula when I asked about the P400

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Michael The P-400 has an oil pan that is three inches lower than the standard 6.2 / 6.5 oil pan (in the front) of course. Peninsular has made a deep sump rear and shorten up or made the front section not as deepso it will fit a std GM truck. It is expensive of course.We also have an aluminum pan same as the military and that has a deeper section forward so that will not work.

The P-400 is 501 more than the performance 6.5 then you still need the special oil pan. So you are looking at 1100 more than the standard engine. The real problem is there are no Oversize pistons for the P-400.The 6.5 in the performance piston there are . 020 and .030 OS. Yes these engines are set up for a serpentine water pump, flat water pump pulley, plus all the other accessories.

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After I got this I emailed AM General asking about the differences in the engines and parts interchangeability. This is their reply.

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The P-400 is the heavy duty version of the 6.5L engine. It has a forged steel crank instead of the standard cast iron crank; the con rod, piston and oil spray is different; the block features a bed-plate instead of the conventional bearing caps; the oil pan is structural casting instead of stamping and the heads have valve seat inserts.
The after-market may have not put in place any oversized pistons, as the engine is only a year old and the volume demand doesn’t warrant oversized production.

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I knew about the girdle and crank, I also already know you can order an Optimizer with forged steel crank for about $700-$900 extra so the cranks are interchangeable. It seems the biggest internal difference is the rods, pistons, and oil spray. What is the difference in the pistons? I noticed he says the engine is only a year old. I'm sure I've been reading articles on these engines that date back to 2010 and maybe as far back as 2008.