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Hey,
I would like to know how all this stuff works? Sorry for being dumb in this area but its my first diesel. What is the CETANE sticker on the pump telling you? Summer and winter fuel, what is the difference? Adding stuff to your fuel, why and what type? If there is a link then please tell me where to go. Thanks for the info! :(
Hey,
I know there must be someone out on this site that has info, help out the new guy on the block
I would like to hear a response to this also. I just bought a cetane additive but have not put any in yet. I bought the AMSOIL 16 oz. can and have to do the calculation for a tank.
Thanks.
buelldude ,
All right I'll try.......
Cetane number is like the octane level in gas, the higher the number the better quality for a cleaner burn, faster starts, in our case a little better burn resulting in better fuel economy...... Number 1 should be a premimum,most is done by additives ......
Summer, winter blend.......summer it is a heavier oil in winter it is leaned with kero,as the help in cold starting and gelling issues in the colder climate...... You'll have to ask your filling station when they switch blends.....
Additives........ I only add a cetane boost, nothing else. Personal preference (Amsoil)...... Do a search here to see what others are using....... GM forbids additives...... :rolleyes:
They are concerned with certain water evaporators ....... Alcohol base will and can case premature pump failures ... CHA CHING........ Others will chime in .......
MAC [img]smile.gif[/img]
=>Diesel Fuel
If you have ever compared diesel fuel and gasoline, you know that they are different. They certainly smell different. Diesel fuel is heavier and oilier. Diesel fuel evaporates much more slowly than gasoline -- its boiling point is actually higher than the boiling point of water. You will often hear diesel fuel referred to as "diesel oil" because it is so oily.
Diesel fuel evaporates more slowly because it is heavier. It contains more carbon atoms in longer chains than gasoline does (gasoline is typically C9H20, while diesel fuel is typically C14H30). It takes less refining to create diesel fuel, which is why it is generally cheaper than gasoline.
Diesel fuel has a higher energy density than gasoline. On average, 1 gallon (3.8 L) of diesel fuel contains approximately 155x106 joules (147,000 BTU), while 1 gallon of gasoline contains 132x106 joules (125,000 BTU). This, combined with the improved efficiency of diesel engines, explains why diesel engines get better mileage than equivalent gasoline engines.
[ 07-25-2002: Message edited by: mackin ]</p>
Mackin is right on with the definiton of Cetane. He occasionally hits the mark. [img]tongue.gif[/img] ;)
But, number one is not premium diesel. There are typically two types of diesel that you will find at the pumps. Number two (also called home heating oil), and number one (kerosene). Red diesel is the same as regular diesel except that the road tax hasn't been charged on it. Hence the reason it is called off-road diesel. It comes from the same tap at the refinery as regular diesel does. Don't get caught using red diesel on the road. The fines can be upwards of $10,000 plus $1000 per gallon of fuel capacity. But I digress.
Number two diesel has more energy than number one but has a tendancy to gel below 20*F (I think. Mackin?). Number one has less energy but doesn't gel until below -40*F (Again, I think.).
Winterized fuel is made one of two ways. By blending number two with number one. The proportion determines the gelling point of the fuel. Obviously, the more number one, the lower the gelling point. But the worse your performance will become. The other way is to have straight number two mixed with an anti-gel additive at the pump (bulk tank). This fuel has all the energy of number two (or most of it) but has a lower gelling point. Premium is number two with a cetane booster added to it. That's all it is.
So your best bet to find out what is in the tank is to ask the guy filling the tank. Usually, if you ask the person behind the counter what type of fuel they have, you will get a blank stare followed by either "I need to talk to my manager (who probably doesn't know either).", or "We have diesel?"
As for additives, I recommend using one at every fill. Most good additves have an anti-gel additive, cetane boost, lubricant additive, etc. The additives that will damage are the line driers because they use alcohol. However, most engine manufacturers recommend using this type of additive to remove water in a fuel system. But prolonged useage can (and probably will) cause damage to your fuel system. If you stay away from fuel system driers, and just use the regular additives, you should be fine. Just an FYI, my manual also says not to use it, but I feel that with the advent of low sulfer fuels, and the cold climate I live in, the added protection is worthwhile. And tell you what, I doubt it will hurt your truck. I won't recommend one over another, but I will tell you that I use Power-Service. Mainly because it's everywhere.
Does that answer your question adequately?
(Mackin, will you hire yourself out as a speel chcker?) :D
Mackin, you supprized me, I had suspected your IQ was at the blue collar level, now you are in for a raise! (But Not From Me!)
[ 07-26-2002: Message edited by: Joe.G ]</p>
thanks guys, I just might get the hang of this! I live in VA and it doesn't get that cold, I wonder if they change the types or not? thanks again
Don't run kerosene (K1), #1 diesel (D1), home heating oil (HO1 and HO2), Jet A, JP5,or JP8 in your Duramax unless it's an emergency. These do not contain the lubricity characteristics required. Your injection pump will suffer in a very short time.
The three popular fuels people use are:
#2 Diesel: This is what your engine is designed to run on. Low sulfur (federal limit of 500ppm), cetane ratings vary from 42 to 53, and acceptable minimum lubricity. (BTW your Duramax specifies minimum cetane of 45 and 50 is preferred). 50+ cetane diesel fuel is normally called "Premier", "Premium", or "Ultra" on the pump (there are several other names I've seen as well, but look for a cetane rating on the pump if possible).
Off Road (dyed) Diesel: Your engine will run OK on this fuel, but the sulfur content is not regulated by the government and the private company that puts out the specs. calls for maximum sulfur of 5000ppm. That is 10X the sulfur content your engine was designed for. High sulfur content will cause you to violate the EPA certification for the engine, and will cause high wear on your injection pump and injectors. Cetane rating is usually in the low 40's.
Home Heating Oil: There are no federal guidelines for sulfur content, no additives for lubricity at all, and no cetane rating. Only use this stuff in an emergency and make sure to use additives to improve the lubricity.
Yes, there are fuel distributors that claim all three are the same. Distributors do not "mix" the fuel, add the dye, or do anything but distribute the fuel. The refinery is who decides what the fuel is, and refineries don't talk to anyone about their blends. Still considered a "trade secret" for some reason.
I know a person that obtained a tote of bunker oil (also known as "Fuel Oil #6" or "Bunker C") for large diesel ships. This is the fuel very large diesel engines run on, and has to be pre-processed before injection into the engine (they use constant temp. fuel, and it's spun out to remove contaminates). He ran two tankfuls in his 1999 Dodge/Cummins truck before he began noticing bad things with his truck. The truck was under warranty, but it ended up costing him nearly $5000 for a complete new fuel system.
[ 07-27-2002: Message edited by: csimo ]</p>
csimo, I have to respectfully disagree with some of the above.
All the refineries that I've been to around here (I inspect boilers) use Number 2 for off-road, on road, and home heating oil. I was told by them that it doesn't pay to keep one oil at one specification and to make two others with different specifications. I won't disagree with the specifications for each fuel. You're absolutely correct. But around here, they are all the same from the same tap (Koch refinery in MN), and the dye is added at the depot. Perhaps, this distribution method varies by region or refinery. But around here, it is that way.
As for number one not being kerosene, I will also beg to differ. Different specifications, yes. But around here, same oil. About running it in your Dmax, sustained running straight number one is bad because of the lack of lubricity you mention. As for not running it in your machine at all, in some areas, that's just not possible. Up in northern MN in winter, the depot cuts diesel like this. 60% #1, and 40% #2 (It's posted on the pump). Now how do you propose someone who lives in a northern climate like that fill thier Dmax without #1 oil? Or without using additives? Like it or not, you will have to use it. That's why I recommend using a quality additive at each fill. Cheap insurance to enahnce the lubricity of the fuel.
As for Jet A, JP-5, JP-8, where is the average schmuck going to find these? My last time seeing tanks of that (outside of at the refinery) was when I was in the service. Probably, not gonna find it at your local pump and munch. Bunker oil? I haven't seen that since I was in either. But we stopped using that long, long before I got into our diesel on the ship. It's super dirty stuff meant for a marine application for sure. But I will say it makes a great parts cleaner.
Just an FYI, the above rebuttal is not personal. In fact, it caught many things about different diesel grades that I neglected to mention. Information that is very valuable. So thanks for catching my back for the common good.
Has anyone tried Rotella DFA additive?
Sam's Club is carrying it in cases of 32 oz. bottles at a good price. It seems to be the only locally available additive other than Power Service.
I have no idea what various refineries actually do, but I will be willing to bet that the products they label as Kerosene, #1, #2, etc. meet the federal specifications for those products. They have too much at risk not to.
Kerosene is a member of the diesel fuel family. It is not the same as #1 fuel oil (D1) by federal law. The specifications are different.
Here's the governments description of the two:
DIESEL FUEL: Any liquid other than gasoline that is capable of use as a fuel or a component of a fuel in a motor vehicle that is propelled by a diesel-powered engine or in a diesel-powered train. Diesel fuel includes number 1 and number 2 fuel oils, kerosene, dyed diesel fuel, and mineral spirits. Diesel fuel also includes any blendstock or additive that is sold for blending with diesel fuel, any liquid prepared, advertised, offered for sale, sold for use as, or used in the generation of power for the propulsion of a diesel-powered engine, airplane, or marine vessel. An additive or blendstock is presumed to be sold for blending unless a certification is obtained for federal purposes that the substance is for a use other than blending for diesel fuel.
KEROSENE: All grades of kerosene, including, but not limited to, the 2 grades of kerosene, No. 1-K and No. 2-K, commonly known as K-1 kerosene and K-2 kerosene respectively, described in American society for testing and materials specifications D-3699, in effect on January 1, 1999, and kerosene-type jet fuel described in American society for testing and materials specification D and military specifications MIL-Tr and MIL-Td (grades jp and jp-8), and any successor internal revenue service rules or regulations, as the specification for kerosene and kerosene-type jet fuel.
The regulations for specific gravity of K1 and D1 are different and don't overlap.
The regulations for lubricity are specified for D1, but there is no lubricity component specified for K1. K1 is the base stock for D1 for sure, but the additives make it D1 instead of K1.
D2 (what we use) is winterized in various ways depending on what area of the country you are in, and the time of year. That is simply called Winterized D2.
As for the availability of the various other fuels, it just depends where you live. Some members here could easily obtain just about any fuel you want. I could get Jet A anytime I choose. I could get fuel oil #3 in about 10 minutes.
Again, no disrespect intended, you could be 100% right that the refinery you mentioned labels the same product three different ways. I'd hate to be them if they get caught!
When I visited the refinery, we got to talking about fuels. That's where I learned about how they run #2 three different ways. As long as it meets the spec., it can be labeled that way. So, I don't see how they can get in any trouble for doing this.
As for K1 and D1, you might be right. I am just relaying what I was told while doing my inspections. I have no reason to doubt them, but I coulda been given bad information or misunderstood what I was told.
As for additives, I still think they are a good idea with each fill.