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Thread: 2009 LMM regen frequency = every 357 miles

  1. #1

    Default 2009 LMM regen frequency = every 357 miles

    You got it. Local dealership pulled the stats during a routine checkup. My suspicions were confirmed, that its regenning about once per tankful, for the first 25K of service. ~105 gallons of extra #2 at $3.10/gallon = $325 worth of fuel consumed by regens.

    When I was there, a guy with a new 2011 K2500HD was getting his first urea refill - at 6000 miles. Shop bill was $50.


    Rough extrapolation is DPF and (dealership installed) urea could cost a whopping ~$2200 during first 100K of operation.
    2011 Chevrolet Tahoe 5.3L daily driver
    • Previous owner of two 1994 6.5L K3500s, '01, '02, and '05 6.6L K2500s, '04 C4500, '06 K3500 dually, '06 K3500 SRW, '09 K3500HD SRW, '05 Denali
    • Total GM diesel miles to date : ~950K

  2. #2
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    Default

    Mark is this LMM one of the trucks you tow with frequently??

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Mar 2000
    Location
    Geneva, IL
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    Default

    Hi,

    Well I have something, although it might not be very catchy -- questions nobody seems to care about.

    Over the life of a truck, how much extra fuel will be consumed by regeneration, in relation to the alleged savings in pollution output?

    With regard to the 2011 machines, what is the extra cost to the consumer for not just the urea, but the additional hardware on the engine, and how does that compare with any asserted savings in pollution output for that engine?

    How much farther can this go before owning a diesel is no longer cost-effective for anyone (unlike Mark) who does not tow constantly?

    When the market to guys like me -- who could conceivably get away with towing with a gasser -- dries up, what will manufacturers do when light truck diesel sales dwindle?

    When will this stupidity stop? The government has screwed up both the automotive market and that of the food industry with its ethanol subsidies (which AlGore recently acknowledged was a mistake to advocate) -- lowering fuel economy, increasing corn prices, etc. They advocate and subsidize (with our tax dollars) electric vehicles that can't go very far, go even less distance when you have to use a heater in the winter or air conditioner in the summer, and rely on electricity supplied by a grid that can't expand efficiently due to other Federal regulations. This continual Federal pressure to squeeze the last few percentages of pollution out of the cleanest vehicle fleet in the world is ridiculous.
    (Tirade off.)

    FWIW.
    Rich Phillips
    Member #27
    2019 K-2500 Crew Cab Z71
    Cedar Creek Silverback 33RL Fifth Wheel
    In The Past: '82 6.2 Jimmy Blazer, '93 6.5 GMC K-2500, '01 DMAX K-2500, '09 DMAX K-2500

  4. #4
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    bayville, new jersey, USA
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    Default

    mark,

    how was information stored ? number of regens and duration ?

    i ll have to ask when i take my 09 in early next week..

    or maybe i wont given the last few months of crap i ve been going thru.
    '12 gmc sierra 2500 dmax slt carbon black.
    '12 s350 diesel mb
    '10 mazda 6i, for sale
    '77 450sl benz, in family since new, sold, still in jersey thou
    '91 350sdl benz, 3.5l diesel, 28 mpg
    '90 560sel benz

  5. #5
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    Default

    I've asked those very questions before myself. I've been told it cost around $6k to outfit each truck with the urea related equipment.

  6. #6

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by madmatt View Post
    Mark is this LMM one of the trucks you tow with frequently??
    Yes...its my ONLY truck remaining, so its my tow vehicle, plow truck, etc...
    2011 Chevrolet Tahoe 5.3L daily driver
    • Previous owner of two 1994 6.5L K3500s, '01, '02, and '05 6.6L K2500s, '04 C4500, '06 K3500 dually, '06 K3500 SRW, '09 K3500HD SRW, '05 Denali
    • Total GM diesel miles to date : ~950K

  7. #7

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by richp View Post
    Over the life of a truck, how much extra fuel will be consumed by regeneration, in relation to the alleged savings in pollution output?

    I would guess MUCH more. I don't see how ~300-500 gallons of extra fuel burned by each DPF equipped Duramax on the road in the first 150K miles can be environmentally friendly. Now add Fords, Dodges, etc...

    With regard to the 2011 machines, what is the extra cost to the consumer for not just the urea, but the additional hardware on the engine, and how does that compare with any asserted savings in pollution output for that engine?

    Don't know...

    How much farther can this go before owning a diesel is no longer cost-effective for anyone (unlike Mark) who does not tow constantly?

    Its not that effective for me, either...ask my wife...or my accountant.

    When the market to guys like me -- who could conceivably get away with towing with a gasser -- dries up, what will manufacturers do when light truck diesel sales dwindle?

    Hopefully march on the EPA headquarters with torches. Cali CARB offices, next...

    When will this stupidity stop?

    Soon we can all pray, but I don't see how, or when.


    The government has screwed up both the automotive market and that of the food industry with its ethanol subsidies (which AlGore recently acknowledged was a mistake to advocate) -- lowering fuel economy, increasing corn prices, etc. They advocate and subsidize (with our tax dollars) electric vehicles that can't go very far, go even less distance when you have to use a heater in the winter or air conditioner in the summer, and rely on electricity supplied by a grid that can't expand efficiently due to other Federal regulations. This continual Federal pressure to squeeze the last few percentages of pollution out of the cleanest vehicle fleet in the world is ridiculous.
    (Tirade off.)

    It is ridiculous. I would love to see a documentary on the Duramax, from 2001 - 2011, chronicling the engineering pressures to meet EPA regs, the effect on $$$, the effect on the environment.

    Madness.



    FWIW.

    Alot.
    (My thoughts are in bold italics, above...)
    2011 Chevrolet Tahoe 5.3L daily driver
    • Previous owner of two 1994 6.5L K3500s, '01, '02, and '05 6.6L K2500s, '04 C4500, '06 K3500 dually, '06 K3500 SRW, '09 K3500HD SRW, '05 Denali
    • Total GM diesel miles to date : ~950K

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
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    New Hampshire - Live Free or Die
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    Default

    It's even worse than that. Regeneration converts inert carbon trapped in the DPF into CO2, the very thing every tree hugger is complaining is causing global warming. In the process it uses extra fuel, which produces more CO2 and no benefit.
    The Constitution needs to be re-read, not re-written!

    If you can't handle Dr. Seuss, how will you handle real life?

    Current oil burners: MB GLK250 BlueTEC, John Deere X758
    New ride: MB GLS450 - most stately
    Gone but not forgotten: '87 F350 7.3, '93 C2500 6.5, '95 K2500 6.5, '06 K2500HD 6.6, '90 MB 350SDL, Kubota 7510

  9. #9
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    Geneva, IL
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    Hi,

    This whole situation reminds me of that great line from Butch Cassidy and The Sundance Kid, where Butch says, "I've got vision and the rest of the world wears bifocals."

    Why is it that a bunch of old farts like us can so clearly identify the flaws in these policies, and yet all those supposedly smart folks in Washington can't?

    Hang in there folks, the next few years are really going to be interesting....
    Rich Phillips
    Member #27
    2019 K-2500 Crew Cab Z71
    Cedar Creek Silverback 33RL Fifth Wheel
    In The Past: '82 6.2 Jimmy Blazer, '93 6.5 GMC K-2500, '01 DMAX K-2500, '09 DMAX K-2500

  10. #10

    Default

    From my perspective, the squeeking wheel gets greased ($$$)...the marginalized or less represented have a harder time getting policy change in their favor.

    Also the whole topic of junk science and policy...

    Personally, I think this is the new USA - love it or leave it. My plan is to cooperate voluntarily less and less - i.e. the DPF comes off. As for urea - well, there should be a workaround available for that, soon enough.

    2011 Chevrolet Tahoe 5.3L daily driver
    • Previous owner of two 1994 6.5L K3500s, '01, '02, and '05 6.6L K2500s, '04 C4500, '06 K3500 dually, '06 K3500 SRW, '09 K3500HD SRW, '05 Denali
    • Total GM diesel miles to date : ~950K

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Mar 2000
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    Default

    Hi,

    I guess I'm trending along the lines of dropping my DPF once I'm out of warranty.

    Anyone know authoritatively what the legal implications of for doing that? Will EPA pollution cops track me down like a dirty dog?
    Rich Phillips
    Member #27
    2019 K-2500 Crew Cab Z71
    Cedar Creek Silverback 33RL Fifth Wheel
    In The Past: '82 6.2 Jimmy Blazer, '93 6.5 GMC K-2500, '01 DMAX K-2500, '09 DMAX K-2500

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Mar 2000
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    Default

    I haven't heard of any major issues yet so long as those who have testing return it for testing.

    I did hear of an interesting issue with Commercial vehicles in NY. Supposedly they check and won't let you onto certain job sites (possibly state or Federal projects) without all devices intact and they supposedly check. May be NYC specific I am not sure. Pure hearsay.

    My best advice is to keep the equipment and make your alterations easily returned to stock.
    Kennedy Diesel-owner
    More than just a salesman-I use and test the products that I sell on a daily basis!
    Superflow Lie Detector in house
    2002 Chev K2500HD D/A CC Long LT 11.77@ 124mph at 7700# fuel only-e.t. needs help
    2005 Chev K3500SRW D/A CC Long LT(SOLD)
    2007 Chev K2500 Classic EC Short LT (Sold)
    2012 GMC K3500SRW D/A CC Long LTZ Happy Birthday to me! Built 1 working day after my birthday and delivered 7 days later.
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    Custom tuning in house using EFI Live tuning software!

  13. #13
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    Kamloops, BC
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    Default

    Interesting discussion!!!

    I've been gearing up to replace my 04 Duramax with a 2011 K3500 Duramax crew cab,long box and I'm beginning to reconsider.
    Cost of diesel here today is $1.10.9 per liter, or $5.03 per Canadian gallon, or $4.19 for the smaller US gallon. Regular gas is $1.00 per liter. In 04 when I bought the truck, diesel was half that, and gas was 25 cents a liter more expensive. How times have changed!

    Up here, the Duramax and Allison option add $12,000 to the truck. MSR's are in the $65,000 to $73,000 range. I can get a well optioned gasser for $48,000 MSR minus discounts and dealer incentives. I had trouble understanding this difference until I read Mark's post re the expense of adding the Urea and regen equipment.

    I love the torque - but being retired - money doesn't grow on trees. Not sure what I'll do. Luckily, the '04 is running really well! It may just stay in the family.

    Tor
    2004 GMC 2500HD SLE Duramax, Allison sb cc
    2016 Acura TLX SH-AWD Elite

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Mar 2000
    Location
    Geneva, IL
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    Default

    Hi Mark,

    I was re-reading your original post. It seems to say that the 2011 trucks have both DPF and urea injection -- or at least your sentence about total cost sort of reads that way.

    I didn't realize both systems were on the new trucks -- I thought the urea did away with the need for the DPF. If both are on the new ones, things are even worse than I realized....
    Rich Phillips
    Member #27
    2019 K-2500 Crew Cab Z71
    Cedar Creek Silverback 33RL Fifth Wheel
    In The Past: '82 6.2 Jimmy Blazer, '93 6.5 GMC K-2500, '01 DMAX K-2500, '09 DMAX K-2500

  15. #15

    Default

    Bwahahaha, Rich. Think like a bureaucrat, Rich...nothing ever expires or goes away. All inefficiencies are cumulative.

    http://www.thedieselpage.com/duramax/LMLDuramaxc.htm
    2011 Chevrolet Tahoe 5.3L daily driver
    • Previous owner of two 1994 6.5L K3500s, '01, '02, and '05 6.6L K2500s, '04 C4500, '06 K3500 dually, '06 K3500 SRW, '09 K3500HD SRW, '05 Denali
    • Total GM diesel miles to date : ~950K

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Mar 2000
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    Geneva, IL
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    Hi Mark,

    Dumb me -- you're right, I know how the government works. I guess I missed that when I read the article originally.

    What catches my eye in re-reading it, is the pollutant reduction already achieved between 1990 and 2010 -- before this latest travesty.

    - Particulate matter emissions are down from 0.55 to .001

    - NOx emissions are down from 5.5 to 0.2

    We are now being asked/forced to spend thousands in initial outlay, and more thousands in operating costs, to chase the last miniscule percentage of reduction.
    Rich Phillips
    Member #27
    2019 K-2500 Crew Cab Z71
    Cedar Creek Silverback 33RL Fifth Wheel
    In The Past: '82 6.2 Jimmy Blazer, '93 6.5 GMC K-2500, '01 DMAX K-2500, '09 DMAX K-2500

  17. #17

    Default

    I think its all part of a plan...a plot, if you will...to transform all of our vehicles into air scrubbers. Soon, we'll be driving to work, and improving our air quality.

    If the stock market crashes and you lock yourself in the garage with the car running, you'll wake up in the morning feeling energized and refreshed...
    2011 Chevrolet Tahoe 5.3L daily driver
    • Previous owner of two 1994 6.5L K3500s, '01, '02, and '05 6.6L K2500s, '04 C4500, '06 K3500 dually, '06 K3500 SRW, '09 K3500HD SRW, '05 Denali
    • Total GM diesel miles to date : ~950K

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
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    South Dakota
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    I admit I can get confused, but I'm not sure I understand the math on the urea. $50 for 6000 miles, that would be 16.6 changes in 100,000 miles. that would make $833 for 100,000 miles, not sure what it costs to do yourself I would think less. Am I missing something here? Merry Christmas to all............

  19. #19

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SDakDmax View Post
    I admit I can get confused, but I'm not sure I understand the math on the urea. $50 for 6000 miles, that would be 16.6 changes in 100,000 miles. that would make $833 for 100,000 miles, not sure what it costs to do yourself I would think less. Am I missing something here? Merry Christmas to all............

    Add cost of additional fuel consumed for regens. Results will vary on vehicle use. I guessed at some average consumption, well below my heavily loaded towing average...

    I suspect that low cost urea sources will appear on the market, and anyone willing to buy 50gallons at a time will be doing these refills in their garage for $10 pretty soon.
    2011 Chevrolet Tahoe 5.3L daily driver
    • Previous owner of two 1994 6.5L K3500s, '01, '02, and '05 6.6L K2500s, '04 C4500, '06 K3500 dually, '06 K3500 SRW, '09 K3500HD SRW, '05 Denali
    • Total GM diesel miles to date : ~950K

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    1,248

    Thumbs up

    We traded our 07 classic LBZ for a 2011 LML.same type 3500 CC DRW's. We get better milage towing and empty on our LML than we did with our LBZ including regens. I have only had 3 regens in 2200 miles. So the DEF is a plus in my book. Don't panic guy's, bottom line I'm getting 1.5 mpg towing and 3 mpg better empty on this new truck. And our LBZ only had the Cat and EGR. And this new truck blows our LBZ away with power while towing. And I thought our LBZ pulled great and it did. So go figure?
    0000000

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