bio-diesel with 04 Duramax?

**silverback** · 12-13-2003, 15:48

One of the reasons that I switched to diesel was to use bio-diesel. If I'm towing my TT down in Baja I'd rather pack a big spare jug of veggie diesel then the dino stuff (won't stink up the other gear as much). Anyway I'm confused by what I read in the manual and from what my dealer told me. If I'm reading the manual (Duramax addendum page 5-3) correctly it says nothing more then B5. Higher concentrations may damage the fuel system and engine. The dealer mumbled something about the magical high tech fuel filter not liking the different density (?) of bio vs. dino diesel. I was hoping to run B20 or better. I know people on this site run bio-diesel. Is this something new with the 04 engine? What concentrations are people using? Has anyone heard anything more definitive from GM? I know the F trucks can run it...
Thanks,
Ken

**george morrison** · 12-13-2003, 16:48

My comments are based on real world testing of bio and I have great concern with the amount of entrained water present in every sample (50+ to date) tested. We normally see entrained water levels of between 20 to 100 ppm in #2 diesel fuel. When we get above 100 ppm water, free water drop out is a signifcant problem. Every sample of bio has had between 350 ppm and 800 ppm of water.. This not only poses a water drop out problem but exacerbates system corrosion and microbial formation...
Bottom line: I have great problems with the use of any of the current bio's that are on the market or home brewed... I am sorry but if you purchased your very sophisticated, high performance Duramax to use Bio, there is a high probability of fuel system problems from the analysis results I have seen in the past year.
More than one sample of bio has completely blown apart the lab test equipment due to the high concentrations of water present.. The same thing occurs in high pressure fuel injectors..
Beakers are less expensive than injectors......
George Morrison

**TDIwyse** · 12-15-2003, 05:45

I've been using 10-20% in my Duramax and much higher in my VW since they were both new. No problems. Every study I've seen (www.biodiesel.org for example will link you to many university and commercial fleet tests) shows significantly less injector and fuel system problems when using commercially produced (not home brewed) biodiesel. These studies limited concentrations to less than 20%. I work in Cedar Rapids and have talked with the bus transit system that has been running 20% biodiesel and they see the same positive benefits.

Kennedy · 12-15-2003, 06:51

I'm all for recycling, renewable resources, reduced emmisions, etc, but I really think that I'd stick to old mechanical systems with this kinda stuff. It's just too much risk (not to say there's no risk in petro diesel) for such an expensive fuel system...

I did buy a Premium tank of Soy diesel in NE?? enroute home from CO and that seemed to run nice with good mpg...

**MNBowTie** · 12-15-2003, 10:19

This is not my 2 cents worth. This is from real testing with BIO Diesel. This test, was set up with a small diesel engine using 100% BIO Diesel; this engine had a complete failure just under 1000 hours.

BTW, BIO is also lower in BTU's, which will lead to lower MPG.

mtomac · 12-15-2003, 10:33

what engine?

**george morrison** · 12-15-2003, 14:13

The State of Ohio was using B20 and began experiencing problems in various types of engines ranging from busses to highway maintenance, etc.. Most of the problems stem from the inferior quality of much bio on the market. It is *very* difficult to find real soy bio. As a result of the reduction in tax credits for soy bio, most bio has now become reprocessed frier oil, waste oil, etc. etc.. True high quality soy bio is almost non-existent...
Irrespective, even the highest quality soy bio contains waaay too much water for my confort level. I have read the academia studies but the missing component is that the wonderful, beautiful soy bio they talk about in their work just does not exist any more...
I work with a farm coop group that indeed has soy bio.. It costs $2.00+ more/gallon than the regular bio due to the low supply/tax incentive losses..
George

**TDIwyse** · 12-16-2003, 05:38

I would like to know more about the problems Ohio was having. Do you have any links to reports showing what the problems were? From my quick looking I came across this reference, http://www.hcdoes.org/airquality/vehicles/Grant2.htm, which had this quote:

"There remains skepticism among diesel fleet managers concerning the use of biodiesel fuel. Their concern centers on cold weather performance. Stories of B20 biodiesel turning to gel in cold weather are pervasive. Those initial cold weather problems have been remedied with the use of biodiesel additive packages which eliminates cold weather performance concerns. Lykins Oil Company uses biodiesel additive packages to enhance the mixing properties of the fuel. The use of B20 biodiesel in the Riggs Bus fleet, for the entire school year, will demonstrate the performance of biodiesel as an acceptable alternative fuel option even through the winter months."

Also this study http://www.mda.state.mn.us/ams/biodieselfinal.pdf showed no problems with B20 through Minnesota winters on their snow plow equipment. The US army has also done several studies on B20 mixed with the JP-8 (see http://www.biodiesel.org/resources/r...01_fle-020.pdf for an example). Also at http://www.biodiesel.org/resources/p...tary_users.pdf shows the army, navy, airforce and marines are all using B20. Notice the quote from the Marine Corps GME Program Manager, "We've had no reported maintenance issues. I asked the bases to contact me with their experiences, negative or positive, with biodiesel. I received only positive feedback."

I get my virgin soy biodiesel through the Linn Coop in Marion, IA. It's made by West Central Soy in Ralston, IA. The price for 100% Biodiesel has been $2.30/gal for the last year. I do agree that I would stay away from poor/unknown quality biodiesel, just like I would stay away from poor quality diesel fuel from any source.

**sdaver** · 12-16-2003, 06:22

any mexican resturant,krispy kream or kentucky fried chicken could be a potential fuel stop

not for me.........I would rather smell the diesel

**Scott Duprey** · 12-16-2003, 10:11

I have been running B2 bio-diesel for a long time now and at one stop I make for Fuel in Charlotte Michigan has B20. My truck runs wonderful on it. To be honest, I notice no difference. Maybe alittle quieter. But who knows.

I'd rather give my 2 cents a gallon to US companies.

Some of this compaint sounds like the old friend of a friend said stuff. Take it from the people that run the bio-diesel instead of uneducated comments.

This is definately one of those things that are a choice for everyone and not everyone will make it.

BTW, my company has a fuel station and every single semi that runs diesel has run B2 throughout the harvest season with no problems. We are talking a lot of miles and a lot of idle times, a lot. Not 1 single problem or complaint I've heard. As a matter of fact our larger farms are requesting higher mixture then B2 for farms use. Now dudes, we are not talking some 50 thousean dollar truck here, we are talking 100,000's of thousands in equipment on these farms running bio-diesel. No problems.

I like the product and prefer to fill with it. I feel lucky to have the choice of using it and and greatful that my company offers it.

**MNBowTie** · 12-16-2003, 10:34

Michael Tomac:

If, I get the OK, I would be glad to provide all the details, however, because of trade issues, I can't disclose anymore at this time. I absolutely, have no agenda, except trying to keep my wallet from getting thinner.

**SoCalDMAX** · 12-16-2003, 11:42

I believe if George Morrison posts it, he either witnessed it, performed the test himself or it is indeed from a credible source. He performs and deals with lab results every day.

Keep in mind, if you're talking about OTR trucks or farm equipment, their fuel systems are quite a bit different than the HPCR system that we are running. The behavior of water laden fuel under 26,000 psi is probably going to be far different than in a lower pressure mechanical injection system.

as expensive and particular as our fuel systems are (I already lost an engine to 1 stuck injector) and that was with shorter than recommended fuel filter intervals, 1K mi on the current filter and 26,000 mi on the engine. I bought fuel only at high volume truck stops and never used any biodiesel.

It may seem overly cautious, especially since I'd love to brew some bio, but if George has even the slightest reservations about something I'm staying away from it. He's always had lab results to support his recommendations.

Regards, Steve

**Scott Duprey** · 12-17-2003, 06:25

I feel strongly about the use of Bio-diesel and like any fuel you need to do your research.

What was said by George maybe true but I know for certain that the company I work for would not put its reputation or product sales at stake.

When I said 100,000's of miles that was on semi's, of all engine types. NOT 1 problem reported by anyone. We have about 1000 customers that purchase the b2 bio-diesel on a regular basis.

Our bio-diesel comes from a good dealer, from a huge Ag supplier of fuels. Yeah they are going to be mixing french fry oil in. NOT!

I can sum it up by saying that I can keep my head high and say that 2% of my diesel money stays right here in the good ole USA. I wish it was more then that.

Visit www.biodiesel.org and decide for yourself.

100,000's of miles, 1000 customers of B2 and NOT 1 problem.

**george morrison** · 12-17-2003, 19:47

Scott, regarding your comment "Some of this compaint sounds like the old friend of a friend said stuff. Take it from the people that run the bio-diesel instead of uneducated comments." I would be most happy to share the 20+ bio fuel analysis results I have completed with you, all of which contain in excess of 100 ppm water, most of which were in the 400+ level.. Would you be so kind to share your bio fuel analyisis results and are they less than 100 ppm?? Do you feel comfortable running a fuel with a water level in excess of 100 ppm? I certainly do not..
As I shared in my previous post, bio fuel has degraded in the past year due to the change in tax credits, from my experience and much of the bio on the market is no longer soy but reprocessed french fry oil, etc.. This is not second hand information Scott but real world experience from end users of B20 here in Ohio. It is nearly impossible to find true soy B20 in Ohio at this time...
George

**sdaver** · 12-17-2003, 20:39

I tried some it taste like chicken........

Im with you george

**Scott Duprey** · 12-18-2003, 05:27

George

You may very well be right. I gues I should not of bought my second duramax, some people have had injector problems they all must have injector problems. You are saying that it is all bad and that is the point I argue.

We have to be educated on the fuel we run, bio-diesel or not.

How do you explain the 1000's of fillup and the 100,000's of miles driven and not 1 single problem?

I believe your numbers are right and this does raise the white flag and I will be much more cautions on the road to use bio-diesel. The only time I am on the road and have to fill up is when I am towing and I look for high traffic fill stations.

The white flag is waving and know your source of fuel or bio-diesel.

Thanks for the info George. I will see if I can get analysis numbers.

**TDIwyse** · 12-18-2003, 05:39

I respect everyone's right to use or not use whatever fuel they want.

George, your comment about the water in biodiesel. From your analysis results, is this free water or saturated water? Do you use the Karl Fischer method of water detection? If so it is my understanding that you are measuring total water (free, emulsified and saturated). Biodiesel has a much higher ability to hold water in saturation. As has been discussed, free water is what can damage fuel systems. Emulsified and saturated water is much less of an issue. That being said, if the biodiesel is saturated with water when added to regular diesel you can have problems with water.

This is from http://www.ec.gc.ca/transport/public...biodiesel4.htm

The ASTM standard D-975 allows up to 500 ppm water in D-2. As the solubility of water in D-2 is only about 50 to 60 ppm, any water above this limit will separate out at the bottom of the tank or stay suspended as an emulsion. The solubility of water in SME is approximately 1500 ppm, while in B20 blend of SME in D-2 it is about 40 to. 60 ppm. Thus blending a water saturated biodiesel with D-2 can result in the separation of water phase providing a potential site for microbial growth (Van Gerpen et al., 1997).

But note that the spec for D2 allows 440-450 ppm free water (500ppm total-50ppm saturated). The spec for biodiesel of 500ppm would still allow nearly 1000ppm of water saturation ability left before free water forms. Is my reference incorrect? If not, it would seem logical that ASTM speced biodiesel (which I use) would be able to actually help absorb free water from the saturated diesel fuel.

**Scott Duprey** · 12-18-2003, 07:54

George, George, George.

It just dawned on me that Bio-diesel eliminates the need for fuel additives.

The fuel guy at my company just stopped by and had a conversation with me. Interesting. We have 2 ppm of water or less in our B2 bio-diesel.

Here is the catch to the entire deal. If you are not using "Soy" diesel then you are going down the wrong path.

Growermark is our supplier of soy bio-diesel. Those of you that know Growermark is know they are not going to deliver bad fuel to their customers.

Oh yeah, he mentioned that fuel analysis that would measure PPM of water can run from $200 to $1500 a shot. D1796-97(2002) Standard Test Method for Water and Sediment in Fuel Oils by the Centrifuge Method (Laboratory Procedure)? www.astm.org

Be sure you are using "Soy bio-diesel". This type is required to meet astm requirements and water will not be a problem.

Good conversation is always good. I always learn something or gives me food for thought.

**SoCalDMAX** · 12-18-2003, 12:41

Scott,

I'll take your word for it that there have been no problems running soy based bio diesel in the OTR trucks. As I mentioned before, they don't use anywhere near the fuel pressure that the HPCR system does. All factors affect the results. Who your supplier is, how much water is in their fuel, the percentage of bio in the diesel and fuel rail pressure as well as the specific injector design. It could very well be that B20 with 400ppm water (of any type) can seriously damage or erode the injectors in a HPCR system.

It is also very likely that B2 from your source used in mechanical injection systems or OTR trucks works great with no ill effects. In which case you're both right, merely referring to different circumstances.

Regards, Steve

mdrag · 12-18-2003, 15:19

Originally posted by Scott Duprey:
George, George, George.
...Be sure you are using "Soy bio-diesel". This type is required to meet astm requirements and water will not be a problem....

I believe George Morrison discussed Soy bio-diesel earlier in this thread and made this point quite clear...

The State of Ohio was using B20 and began experiencing problems in various types of engines ranging from busses to highway maintenance, etc.. Most of the problems stem from the inferior quality of much bio on the market. It is *very* difficult to find real soy bio. As a result of the reduction in tax credits for soy bio, most bio has now become reprocessed frier oil, waste oil, etc. etc.. True high quality soy bio is almost non-existent...
Irrespective, even the highest quality soy bio contains waaay too much water for my confort level. I have read the academia studies but the missing component is that the wonderful, beautiful soy bio they talk about in their work just does not exist any more...
I work with a farm coop group that indeed has soy bio.. It costs $2.00+ more/gallon than the regular bio due to the low supply/tax incentive losses..
George

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