Diesel Fuel Conditioner/Additive?

[Robyn]

I pretty much hold all advertising in contempt. Nuff said

[loghauler]

How about this info I cam across today? Nano technology. They have quite the claims. Today another driver handed me some info and said he has started using this additive in his big truck and can't believe the power and fuel milage increase! Here are two sites he gave me to check out. www.nanotsunami.com and www.h2oil.com. Anybody heard of this technology?

[More Power]

How come no one asked this question: "So, moondoggie, you found that at least for you Stanadyne Performance Formula didn't increase your mpg at all, a failed promise. Why then do you think their Lubricity Formula is doing what they say it will?" Guess what - can't answer that one.

I remember reading about a fuel economy test several years ago that was generated by a fleet operator who ran lots of trucks, and who developed fuel economy tracking data over a long enough period of time to make the case for treated fuel. Individuals have a harder time seeing the increase due to a much smaller sampling and changes in driving conditions throughout the year.

Writer Jim Allen performed a series of dyno tests a few years ago, using a 6.2L turbodiesel, that measured the effect of Stanadyne Performance Formula on power. He saw an increase in power. He also measured the effect on performance when changing injection timing. I'll have to ask him to put that information into a format we can use here.

Jim

[moondoggie]

Good Day!

THAT would be very cool - the more hard numbers, the better.

I have a test devised where I could with reasonable accuracy determine mpg change vs. additive % that could be done in a very short timeframe, but it would take time & equipment that I'll never have available. Sure would be fun... I MUCH prefer dealing with hard facts. Like I said in my post, my data doesn't say I got worse mpg, it simply doesn' make a hard case for improved mpg.

Blessings!

(signature in previous post)

[rustyk]

I'm a former fuels and lube engineer. There is no way an additive in 1:500 or 1:1000 proportions can have any effect on fuel economy.

Fuel economy will depend on the specific gravity of the fuel (oddly enough, the smaller the number, the higher the specific gravity). Heavier fuels have more energy per gallon. Period. This is one reason why "winter-blend" diesel fuel, containing lighter ends for easier starting, provide lower fuel mileage - the lesser energy content is not overcome by the higher efficiency of the engine at lower ambient temps.

[7.4 VORTEC]

All right gang, here is a major twist in the additive mix. A good friend of mine was telling me the other day that he is experimenting with waste engine oil as a fuel source. He found a product at a trade show that's called "oil cat" and it filters waste engine oil and allows you to burn it mixed in with your diesel. My friend started experimenting and talking to other truckers and sourcing info on the different forums. Note, the company that makes the oil cleaning machine is pretty conservative and uses a ratio of about 7% waste oil to diesel. My friend has a mid 80's 6.2 Blazer with a Banks Turbo setup. He is now up to 50% waste oil to diesel!!! I had him repeat the ratio and he said "yup, 50%". I asked if his truck runs good and he said it doesn't just run good, it runs freaking great. He felt that it may take just a touch longer to start, but thats the only downfall so far. He is in a very mild part of California, so I don't know how this would work in the colder climates. I asked him if it's smoking and he said not enought to notice any real difference. He said the info he's gathered is they will really start to smoke if you have too much oil. Hmmm.

So everyone is probably wondering how do you run dirty waste oil in the fuel and not ruin the injectors, IP, etc. My friend set up a bypass oil filter that uses rolls of toilet paper as the filter media. He then gravity feeds about 5 gallons of waste oil through it in his garage. It takes about 4 to 5 hours of time, but it seems to work. My concern was with the dirty oil but my friend claims the filtering process gets it down in micron size that this has not been an issue. The biggest issue he said is the actual additives in the waste engine oil causing deposits in the combustion chamber, valves, etc. He hasn't had any issues yet, but he was cautious of this as one of the potential problems listed by others doing this. He claimed that since many of the logging trucks actually have a very short lifespan, those guys weren't even filtering the waste oil as much as he as. He felt if there was an oil with no additives, this would be the perfect mixing oil. I guess if you could find base stock cheaper than diesel, it would be perfect for those wishing to "fuel blend".

OK, what about mileage?? He claims that his mileage has improved substantially and he is doing further testing to get more accurate numbers. At this point, 15-20% increase was what he felt, probably due to the increased BTU's in oil vs diesel.

He didn't think anyone should try this in the newer diesel motors with the high pressure fuel rails, etc. Just to much of an unknown without doing some real trials.

Regarding ATF, my friend claims that ATS Diesel has a twin turbo 5.9 Cummins that they use as their transmission dyno powerplant. He told me that ATS runs ATF at about 75% and motor oil at 25% as it's fuel. This is a 500 hp beast. Can this be possible?? I figure if they are doing this, they are just getting rid of the ATF from trannies they test, dyno runs, etc. I was shocked to hear you could run this mixture and the motor would run.

One last thing, apparently you can burn your own waste oil if it was produced by your vehicle. I'll have to find the federal info on that, but I guess it's not different that having oil blow past your rings to the combustion chamber. I could have sworn I've seen a product that meters waste oil to your fuel system in some truckers magazine. I'd guess thats how they get away with it.

My friend is a writer for a national automotive magazine and asked me not to mention his name at this point until he gets further with his testing. You'll see this article out in about 4 to 5 months, plus he'll have even more hard data on how the truck is running with even more miles on the odometer.

Rustyk, have you ever heard of anyone running waste motor oil mixed in with diesel???...any potential downfalls with this setup (assuming that the waste oil is filtered "clean") that you can see from your past experience? What about being able to run ATF mixed with motor oil as your fuel source? Does this sound possible or is there some mis-information here?

Cheers,
George Carousos

[rustyk]

I get a Bazanga Meter reading of about 9.83 on those claims. First, filtering oil through toilet paper - what is the micron filtration rating (BTW, back in the '70s we went through this TP oil filter craze) - more importantly, does he use new or used toilet paper ?

Secondly, injectors are designed and set to use a narrow band of viscosities, unless preheated, motor oil ain't even close (and preheating would have to be extreme - not to mention viscosity can only be reduced so much). If your friend is to be believed, then I have some prime Florida watertop property to sell...

In theory, better mileage would be obtained from motor oil, since it is a heavier stock than diesel. But unmodified diesel engines won't tolerate it for very long. I don't have any idea what he was talking about "diesels with high pressure fuel rails shouldn't use it"...some engines feed the injectors with low-pressure fuel and the injector pressurizes it; in others, the IP pressurizes the fuel. I can't think of any distinction that would make it possible to burn such a mixture with either system. But you're friend is talking about a 6.2 - with HP from the IP.

The final problem is that one can't filter "clean" any contemporary capable diesel motor oil. First, there are metallic ash fines (tiny little solid particles of metallic ash) that will pass though any usual filter - they're designed to; when they react with a contaminant, the resulting particle will be filtered out because it's much larger. Secondly, metallic ash detergent-dispersants (as above) are only one constituent in the additive package - ashless detergents (liquids) are also present, and don't get filtered out.

As for the claim there's a Cummins diesel running on MO and ATF, that's not beyond possibility, but the fuel system would have to be specially designed to make it feasible.

Marine and large stationary diesels (we're talking in the 10,000 HP and up range, here) can burn stuff barely removed from asphalt. But they also have fuel-processing systems costing upwards of $100,000, and AFAIK, none of those systems could even be hauled by any truck on this forum.

All that said, some Cummins engines have a system for dripping motor oil from the crankcase into the fuel system, the idea being that makeup oil to replenish that burned will juice up the additive level. But Cummins crankcases hold large amounts (25+ quarts) compared to the 7-8 qts of our engines.

Bottom line: I know a bit about the subject. I also paid for my engine with my own money. To keep it running well, I'll do what I know works, and leave the fringe "science" to others - and their money.

[Robyn]

I agree that the motor oil and other concoctions is definately not the way to fly.
I have changed my mind about ATF as an additive even though I have used it for years with no trouble.

I am still suspect of the prepackaged additives and the claims they make.
However if your using the juice the manufacture is pushing and the IP has an issue the manufacture is going to stand behind the product as long as the thing is under warranty.

I have personally seen folks runing filtered veggie oil after heating it and it seems to work ok.

I am of the personal opinion that there is not going to be any real MPG gains from a bottle of additive, the mix is toooooo lean to do much.

As has been mentioned the more BTU's per pound of fuel there exists the possibility of more mileage ( As long as the engine is in good enough condition to extract it)

All this said Im going to fill my rigs with whatever is at my Pride station pump, Bitch about the cost and go on about my business.

Best to ya
Robyn

[spongebob]

i think i have a headache......

does GM/Duramax have anything to say about this topic?

[More Power]

GM says that Stanadyne and Racor diesel fuel additives have been approved for use in their diesel engines. This is partly because these fuel additives are a water demulsifying variety, meaning they work to allow free water to coalesce and be drained away. Many other fuel treatments emulsify the water, allowing it to pass through the fuel filters and fuel injection system. There is quite some debate about which is better, but.... GM provides the warranty.

Jim