MAF flow effects

[Dakster]

MAF is one the better inventions for a motor. The old speed density computers back when fuel injection first came out where a table of set values that couldn't take into account environmental conditions. Those motors were hard to add performance to since back then it was hard to rewrite the ECU tables. (OBDI was the only game in town).

Now, MAF is much better because it allows the motor to dynamically change to the environment. Messing with that signal will either cause a LEAN or a RICH Condition. More Air = More Fuel, so if you trick the MAF to report more air than is going in, then you will have RICH condition, although the 02 sensors will rat out the MAF and the motor will DEFUEL to compensate for the mixed signals. This can cause a surging motor because the MAF and other sensors are battling each other.... Same thing can happen if an onxygen sensor is going bad.

[moss6]

MAF is one the better inventions for a motor. The old speed density computers back when fuel injection first came out where a table of set values that couldn't take into account environmental conditions. Those motors were hard to add performance to since back then it was hard to rewrite the ECU tables. (OBDI was the only game in town).

Now, MAF is much better because it allows the motor to dynamically change to the environment. Messing with that signal will either cause a LEAN or a RICH Condition. More Air = More Fuel, so if you trick the MAF to report more air than is going in, then you will have RICH condition, although the 02 sensors will rat out the MAF and the motor will DEFUEL to compensate for the mixed signals. This can cause a surging motor because the MAF and other sensors are battling each other.... Same thing can happen if an onxygen sensor is going bad.

So how does that relate to what Banks is doing in their relocation which obviously places the MAF in a much higher flow area and their claim of the improvement in power. That said, Banks is pretty well known for being effiency minded which would be contridictory to the more fuel added equation that should play a major role adversant to that end.

[Dakster]

If I recall, BANKS is more than just "messing" with the MAF. It is just part of the whole equation in how it relates to the engine management system (stock or not) that creates "more power." Since, I do not know about the Banks system you are talking about it is hard for me to get specific as to why/what they are doing. Although, knowing Banks kits, I would assume that it is more involved then just moving a stock MAF to a better place - although I could be wrong.

Easiest analogy I can think of help you. On a gasser with a distributor. The factory sets a specific timing that is realiable, dependable. You can gain a few HP (5-10 depending on motor) by advancing/tweaking the timing. Advance too far and you get denotation and pinging. Take that to MAF, you can gain some HP by tweaking it tricking the motor to squirt more fuel. However, tweak too much and you get driveability and computer issues.

[moss6]

If I recall, BANKS is more than just "messing" with the MAF. It is just part of the whole equation in how it relates to the engine management system (stock or not) that creates "more power." Since, I do not know about the Banks system you are talking about it is hard for me to get specific as to why/what they are doing. Although, knowing Banks kits, I would assume that it is more involved then just moving a stock MAF to a better place - although I could be wrong.

Easiest analogy I can think of help you. On a gasser with a distributor. The factory sets a specific timing that is realiable, dependable. You can gain a few HP (5-10 depending on motor) by advancing/tweaking the timing. Advance too far and you get denotation and pinging. Take that to MAF, you can gain some HP by tweaking it tricking the motor to squirt more fuel. However, tweak too much and you get driveability and computer issues.

Actually that is what Banks recommended that I do. After talking about my intake modification (stock air box with and additional 3" air source that draws thru the recovery hook hole) they said that I was probably getting as much air as what their cold air intake kit was getting. They said that their original design had the MAF located just past the air box as with the stock set up. They were having problems with the EGR staying open so started trying other MAF positions. When they located it in the bend just before the turbo tract they found that the EGR valve stayed closed most 100% of the time and they also dyno'd a very good gain in power. I can't see why they would have any reason to be less than honest about it. I feel that they were just trying to help me out because of the higher temps and loss of power that I experienced after installing their exhaust system---good customer support in my estimation.

[moss6]

Okay; from what input that has be generated here it seems that what Banks has done with the MAF, and what they suggested that I do with mine; is 180 degrees from one another. Now I hope you can see why I asked what effects that increased flow rates have on the MAF. I can't see going to the trouble of making an additional MAF port in my intact if the exercise is overtly futile; not to mention that by doing so with out some sembilance of understanding of the ramifications of the experiment. It evidently works for Banks but how in the world does it work if it is so contradictory to what I have been hearing here on this site. Need some help here!!!

[Dakster]

The problem is that in your first post, I assumed that you were talking about messing with the MAF on a STOCK motor. Now that I realize you have "modified" the intake of the motor, you have created a new condition that the motor is running in. This is my fault... Sorry for any confusion I may have caused; however....

If Banks says to move it because their intake likes it there and the motor runs better, what have you got to lose by trying it? You have issues that you are trying to correct and won't know if it works until you try it...

What banks expereinced falls directly in line with what I have been saying all along. Change the amount of air flow or the metering of such and you could have driveability problems. Here you have driveability problems, possibly due to the aftermarket components being more (or less?) efficient than stock. GM is only gonna test and make there systems work on a stock truck, which makes sense.

To compensate for the aftermarket components, Banks, found a spot to mount the MAF that works well... If it was my truck experiencing problems I would be relocating the MAF. Worst case is I either need to buy another intake piece or I have to plug it.

[DmaxMaverick]

I also understood your question to be about a stock system, and your wanting to shortcut a performance mod.

In your case (and Banks), what likely happened is their intake with the MAF relocated (originally) was decreasing the OEM efficiency of the MAF. Relocating (correcting) it likely replaced what was lost, and it is again more efficient and within its operational window. Taking it outside of it's operational window will wreak havoc with the PCM, as Banks discovered.