The new test Chevy verses Ford

[cowboywildbill]

Here is the article the new run off between the new F350 400 hp Ford and the LML 3500
Rumble in the Rockies Chevy kicked Ford's butt really really bad

http://news.pickuptrucks.com/2010/11...e-rockies.html
Hope this link works Wild bill

[Mark Rinker]

Better double check the link...or page has moved?

[cowboywildbill]

Sorry about that I went back and edited the link. It should work now. There was another article or post somewhere else, I can't find it now but it said the Chevy averaged about 2mpg better also while spanking the Ford. And the Chevy was quiter during test. If I find it I'll post it. Also the rumor is from an engineering standpoint, the Chevy could handle as much or even higher GVCW than the Ford, but I guess they don't want to push the 3500 into the CDL requirement for drivers market. Depending on which State your in it could already be a requirement to posess a CDL to operate these vehicles when towing at those #'s. Enjoy.

[gophergunner]

I enjoyed that article...

But more than that, I enjoyed the comments after it.

[DickWells]

Me too. The comments, I mean. It's good to see GM coming back some. Still, it's not hard to understand where some of the Ford guys could get the idea that the test was a little biased.
Another surprise, for me, was the report on the Ram, (Dang, I hate that, calling all Dodges, Rams!), being down on power, and up on fuel useage. I've always thought that the Cummins was more efficient, overall. Guess I must be remembering the old twelve-valve?
The chassis durability thing, though, doesn't fly with me. I've got 126K miles on my 04, mostly towing, and I still have the original tie-rod ends, and ball joints, all around. Haven't replaced any brake pads, either. I have replaced both front wheel bearings/hubs. I think I'm going to get at least 40K miles out of this set of Michellins; Towing! Worst thing about my truck, has been the LB7 injector issue. I'm on my third set, now, the last set being $4000, OOP! Still, if you factor in the 6.0L and the 6.4, AND, now, the 6.7L, the Ford camp hasen't too much to be proud of. And, I don't have to take the cab off to replace my injectors!
Nice thread, Bill.

[cowboywildbill]

Thanks Dick, I used to own cummins. I think the cummins was the most fuel efficient engine in the past. But I think the new fuel has hurt everbody's mpg.I remember traveling and getting old #2 before it changed everywhere and depending on where you were you could still get it. On the old #2 my mpg's would be 3 or more mpg than when I stopped at the next place and filled up with the new lower sulphur fuel. Then came the ULSD and I think we lost even more mpg. The old 12 valve was the best cummins engine in my opinion. You could just turn up fuel in the mechanical pump. Too bad they didn't put the mechanical pump on the 24 valve. Also remember that the early Dodge cummins only had about 160 hp. They still pulled pretty good for thier day, and they got 17 mpg towing. But then came the new 727 tranny with locking tq conv. and overdrive and more hp and torque. Then came the tranny problems probably due to the increased torque and stress at low rpm's. on a tranny that was designed to take those #'s at 6,000 rpm not 1600 rpm. I was a Chyrsler Mechanic back in the Hemi day's and we didn't have much trouble out of the first generation of 727's on the Hemi's. I think the newer emmisions standards have put the hurting on the cummins. And now with more Cubic Inches they just probably burn more fuel. It will be interesting to see what Dodge does in the next year or two to get back in the #'s game. But a lot of the economy issues may be how much more efficent and tight the newer tranny's are. As far as the Ford guy's not believing the test, once while driving our new LML I was on a couple of hills running along side one of the new Fords. He came blowing by us and thought he was going to show us how his truck pulled better I guess judging by the look he gave us when he passed. We were pulling more trailer and wieght and I easily caught him pulled away from him on about a 7% grade. He didn't look happy when I slowed down on the other side of the hill and let him pass. Then he stayed in it hard and got a run at the next grade, I caught him again about 3/4 the way up and passed and waved at him. He looked really pissed. Some guy's just take it too personal. So I think these new GM's do pull better at least we pulled better than that guy. Watching these manufacturers scramble to be on top is like a horse race that's for sure.

[JohnC]

Truly impressive!

I bought my first diesel pickup in 1987. If at that time you told me that in 2010 I'd be able to buy a pickup off the showroom floor that would pull that load with that kind of performance I would have asked where you were getting your drugs.

[gophergunner]

I have always, and will continue to always, be amused by the "Weak IFS" or "lack of solid front axle" argument.

Lots of people use that as a sole reason for NOT buying a GM truck, claiming they want a real truck suspension, not something from a car.

I've ridden in enough ford 1/2, 3/4 and 1 tons lately to have enough reasons not to buy one. Even if they had won the towing test.

Towing uphill is one thing, but my favorite part would be the down hill control of the GM. Truly amazing from this article!

[cowboywildbill]

My drug of choice or should I say drink is::: Diesel Fuel not Shaken and not Stirred but,
sprayed thru a high pressure injector. And a turbo charger chaser! But now that there adding the Urea to my mix it sure leaves an after tase! LOL

[carco]

The 3500 is already in the CDL range if you tie big enough GVWR trailer onto the over 10001 GVWR truck! and it is not an RV. If it is business related @ all then CDL, ask landscapers , they are finding out the hard way around here!!

[cowboywildbill]

In Maryland they consider a 1 ton dually a Commercial vehicle. About 3 years ago I was told by a Trooper that I needed a CDL. After he saw my license, And I have a full CDL, he then said I had to get a DOT # and post it on the side of my truck. And go thru the scales just like all of the other Commercial Vehicles even if I wasn't towing anything.
I said "Sure No Problem" And drove away. Gee, I haven't quite gotten around to doing it yet.
I know I want to plaster a set of #'s on the side of a fancy pickup truck, it would make it look so much better? "Right" Anyway it's about the revenue. The Trooper was nice about it and didn't give me a ticket, maybe out of professional courtesy. But if I hadn't had my truck tagged for the Gross Vehicle Combination Wieght of 25,900 lbs. I would have gotten a big$ fine for being over wieght. And it doesn't matter if if it's an RV or not. They just aren't enforceing the RV part. Apparently the law doesn't exempt RV's., just the Drivers License requirement in many states. Our trailers are all tagged thru Maine. Except for our boat trailer, which doesn't qualify for a Maine tag. The Maine tag's don't carry any wieght rating for the trailer. So all of the wieght must be put on the truck's registration and paid for that way. Our truck tag renewal is $300 every year. But if I had Maryland tag's on our trailers it would cost me that much for each trailer every year. It's all about the revenue. And Md. hates the fact that owners register in another State, even though it is legal. Most of the time if they stop and check you they will ask why you don't have the trailer registered in Maryland. They know why. But do be careful if your driving and towing over 10,000 lbs. Depending on the State your in and the Officer's viewpoint on what the law really means, you could get a ticket or arrested if you don't have a CDL.

[THEFERMANATOR]

In Maryland they consider a 1 ton dually a Commercial vehicle. About 3 years ago I was told by a Trooper that I needed a CDL. After he saw my license, And I have a full CDL, he then said I had to get a DOT # and post it on the side of my truck. And go thru the scales just like all of the other Commercial Vehicles even if I wasn't towing anything.
I said "Sure No Problem" And drove away. Gee, I haven't quite gotten around to doing it yet.
I know I want to plaster a set of #'s on the side of a fancy pickup truck, it would make it look so much better? "Right" Anyway it's about the revenue. The Trooper was nice about it and didn't give me a ticket, maybe out of professional courtesy. But if I hadn't had my truck tagged for the Gross Vehicle Combination Wieght of 25,900 lbs. I would have gotten a big$ fine for being over wieght. And it doesn't matter if if it's an RV or not. They just aren't enforceing the RV part. Apparently the law doesn't exempt RV's., just the Drivers License requirement in many states. Our trailers are all tagged thru Maine. Except for our boat trailer, which doesn't qualify for a Maine tag. The Maine tag's don't carry any wieght rating for the trailer. So all of the wieght must be put on the truck's registration and paid for that way. Our truck tag renewal is $300 every year. But if I had Maryland tag's on our trailers it would cost me that much for each trailer every year. It's all about the revenue. And Md. hates the fact that owners register in another State, even though it is legal. Most of the time if they stop and check you they will ask why you don't have the trailer registered in Maryland. They know why. But do be careful if your driving and towing over 10,000 lbs. Depending on the State your in and the Officer's viewpoint on what the law really means, you could get a ticket or arrested if you don't have a CDL.

RV's are exempted in all states having to have a CDL if they are for personal use. ANYBODY can jump behind the wheel of even those huge 44-48 foot PREVOST with airbreaks and all and drive them legally WITHOUT a CDL.

[cowboywildbill]

It's scary! I thought in some states like California they had different licenses for driving and towing vehicles even RV's. Maybe they aren't CDL , but require a different rating?
In Md. if your towing a travel trailer, you don't need a CDL, but if you were towing a flatbed then you are supposed to. And if it's a company owned truck you only need CDL over the 26,000 or over 10,000 if towing. But the trucks and trailers still must have the proper weight registration/tags. Or can get an overweight ticket. But on an RV thier not going to check your weight unless you have an accident and they think your overweight.
Also in some States for example in Ohio if your an RV owner just driving your RV then you don't need a CDL, but if you work for an RV Dealer and your towing thier trailers, then you do need a CDL. I learned that lst year while we were there.
Kind of a double standard wouldn't you say? Bottom line just make sure your tags reflect the weight you are pulling. And like us Farmer/Rancher we are supposed to have a DOT # on the truck. I would like to see someone go to court on that one, because it is a grey area for us.

[Mark Rinker]

Its fairly simple. Ask yourself these two questions:

1) Is the truck being used for commercial (business) purposes

or

2) Is the combined truck and trailer licensed weight potential (amount listed on the license plate of truck + license plate of trailer)


If either of these answers is 'YES', you need a CDL, DOT#. If you haul cargo for hire, you also need cargo insurance, and MC# (Motor Carrier) a DOT#, and a CDL.

[cowboywildbill]

Mark pretty much nailed it.
I have seen the DOT police in Va. do enforcements on the side of the roadway at random selective check points. One day they were pulling over pickup trucks 1/2 ton and up that were pulling landscape trailers with mowers and weed eaters on them.
Some of these trailers were single axle under 3,000 lbs. But because they were in business and towing a trailer they had the right to wave them over and check them out.
I suspect on that day they got more illegal's with no valid Drivers license or that were running bogus tags and no insurance on some of the vehicles than they did safety violations. And on a 1/2 ton truck pulling a 3,000 lb. trailer you don't need a CDL drivers permit, but the truck is supposed to have a DOT # and also a business license # in some jurisdictions.

[DickWells]

Having read the reports of drivers being pulled over in CA, for overweight trailers, and M H's, and fined for license/weight violations, I have made the attempt, twice, to nail down the Vermont regulations, with a document that I could carry, to show that I was in compliance with my state's laws. Both times I've been told that CA has to honor VT's rules. Yeah, but what can I show the CA State Trooper?" There is no such statute, sir." What the heck? So, why can't they just give me a copy of the law that says I can tow with a combined weight of 27,000 lbs., or less, without a CDL? "You don't need it, sir. CA has to honor our law!" So, this helps me out a lot, if I have to sit beside the road, and wait for a trooper to call VT, or somebody, say, on a Sunday!
I used to have a CDL, but sent in in when I stopped driving bus. Good for air brakes, and a whole lot of weight. Wish I had kept it, now. The regular VT license, with motorcycle endorsement, is a class D! license. Nice. That's one reason why I wanted some documentation to show the cops in other states, why I'm entitled to have up to 27K lbs of combined weight! Class D! Wonderful. Yes, some states do limit you on weight, with and RV, if you don't have a CDL, or, Class A, license.

[cowboywildbill]

Thanks for response Dick. I thought there were some States out there that might.
I bet if things get tighter in our economy, they will start looking for more way's to increase revenue and it wouldn't surprise me if they didn't start in on the RV's. I heard someone say that some States have a luxury tax on high end cars, jewelry and RV's, Boats and even some motorcycles. In The Peoples Republic of Maryland if you have a CDL license and you have any alcohol on your breath whatsoever and you are operating any motor vehicle, even a moped that doesn't require a tag. And you get stopped and they detect the smell of alcohol on your breath even if you pass a breathalyzer test with flying colors just due to the fact that you posess a CDL and you have it on your breath you will be revoked forever. And I do mean forever. What a double standard!
Now I'm sure after much fighting and $$$ spent on legal fees, you might get a regular Drivers license issued, but never a CDL again. When I first read the law, I had to read it 3 times to see if I was really comprehending it correctly. So you can't even have a glass of wine or a beer with your pizza and drive home in Md. if you have a CDL. Pretty harsh rules! So having a CDL doesn't come without a cost here. Not counting the seven written test I had to take back in the 70's to get them and all of my endorsements. Now I understand it is close to $100 for each test and also you have to have a valid up to date DOT Physical every two years and have the Medical card in your wallet. So I pitty the poor RV owners if they start making them go the CDL route. On the lighter side. I just hope they don't start taxing Grins and smiles, I would really be paying extra because of the grin I have when I'm driving our LML. Kinda like that car comercial where the guy is driving fast up and down the hills in one of the new imports and has all of the grins and smiles on his face and in the background his mother's voice is saying, wipe that look off of your face it could freeze that way and be permanent. LOL

[Vern2]

Its fairly simple. Ask yourself these two questions:

1) Is the truck being used for commercial (business) purposes

or

2) Is the combined truck and trailer licensed weight potential (amount listed on the license plate of truck + license plate of trailer)


If either of these answers is 'YES', you need a CDL, DOT#. If you haul cargo for hire, you also need cargo insurance, and MC# (Motor Carrier) a DOT#, and a CDL.

Not exactly.

1) It doesn't matter if a vehicle is used for business or not. If it is under the weight cut offs then it doesn't require a CDL. If it is over the weight cut offs then it requires a CDL either way unless it is an RV.

2) Not exactly sure what you are getting at here. Assuming that you are referring to the 26k limit then it goes by GVWR primarily even though some may go by licensed weight if higher than GVWR.

[drcook]

Back to the original post/topic of the thread.

The flaw in the test relates to both vehicles. Go back and read the article and notice the temps they were pulling in. This is a direct quote from the article, nothing changed:

"Temperatures ranged from 5 degrees to 18 degrees, according to the trucks’ outdoor temperature readouts. It was so cold that neither truck’s fan turned on, though the next day, at just 35 degrees, both trucks’ fans turned on frequently to cool the engines."

I would surmise, that if they tried this test in the summer both trucks would have fallen flat on their faces, puking coolant out all over the road just like the LLY trucks do when faced with pulling a heavy load up the mountains in summer.

Last summer we pulled through southern W.Va and the Fancy Gap area in Virginia in the morning, cool temps with fog. Our truck pulled it like a champ. Coming back it was a different story. Heater full on, blasting away in 95+ temps to keep from overheating. The load ? A 5100 lb travel trailer, the truck ? An LLY of course. I am fixing it with an auxilliary radiator. But that is another story.

My point, is that you can rig a contest by using environmental variables. I sure would like to see them rerun the contest in the middle of summer. But I am equally sure I won't because I am sure, they know what will happen.