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Thread: Converting early gas MH to Duramax? Possible?

  1. #1
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    Question Converting early gas MH to Duramax? Possible?

    I have a '70's era motor home that weighs about 15,000 lbs. and with a tow vehicle gcvw could get to 18,000 lbs. I am going to replace the existing power train with a modern power train. At this point I feel my options are either stay with gas and convert to the GM 8.1L Vortec with the Allison 1000/2000 transmission or convert to the LLY or LBZ with a matched Allison 1000. Given the natural low rpm torque profiles and better performance at altitude of tubo diesel, I would prefer to go to diesel even though it will be more complicated. It also is easier to avoid fuel quality problems in Central America where I will be traveling at some point with diesel vs gas.

    With the existing gearing of my unit, in 5th the engine will be turning about 2300-2400 rpm at 65 mph. This seems a little high to me for a cruising rpm for a diesel engine. If the new 6 speed Allison and matched engine can be found, it would turn 1800-1900 rpm at 65mph. That seems better to me as the engine is just turning fewer rpm with less wear and should/would get better fuel economy.

    Now the questions:

    Is my weight too high as a constant weight/load? What are the different characteristics of the LLY/LBZ at those two rpm levels? What are the torque/economy trade offs? Is the LLY/LBZ happy at the higher rpm as normal rpm? Where can I find a downloadable copy of the torque curves of the LLY and the LBZ?

    The weight of the 6.6L is close to the weight of the existing engine and I will completely redesign the cooling system. Others that have reviewed my plans are about evenly divided between thinking it is a great idea to move to one of these modern power/transmission combinations to thinking I am out of my mind. That is probably true, but I won't let it get in the way!

    To make the transition, I would purchase a used engine/trany with engine and trany wiring harness and computers and anything else needed. My existing engine had a water pump failure and overheated to the point that major engine damage resulted so now is the time to make a change if I am ever going to do it. The coach is a 1976 FMC.

    I thank all you knowledgable Duramax experts for your learned advise.
    Stephen H.
    BigRabbitMan
    1976 FMC Motor Coach #1046
    Formerly 440, now LBZ
    Rear engined w/4 wheel independent suspension.
    Tow car: 1987 Subaru Brat 4x4
    http://www.fmcowners.com/mbbs22/phot...asp?albumid=77

  2. #2
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    I can't help with the intricacies of conversion. Having driven both GAS and DIESEL Motorhomes. I vote for the diesel MH. Since you are upgrading from a 70's era gas motor to a current gas/diesel motor I would be shocked if you didn't get alot more power and better mileage then you are now. Diesel should last a lot longer they are better designed for moving lots of weight. I like the quiet diesel (onan/cummins) generators - again lasts longer and uses a little less fuel per watt.

    If money is an issue, the gas motor should cost a lot less to install and should be taken into consideration. Unless you have a friend willing to donate his used DMAX motor...

    However, I know many a diesel RV that get in 5-6 MPG range, so I wouldn't expect great fuel mileage numbers. Granted these are 40' RV's that empty weigh 23k and towing a car.

    Not that I believe either of these motors are the holly grail of RV motors. But have you researched the most common motors found in large RV's? (Cat / Cummins) I would want all options on the table to pick thru, before I made my choice. Especially since just PARTWISE you are looking at spending some serious cash.
    2007 Silverado, 3500HD, 4X4, CC, Long Bed, SRW, LMM Diesel, Navi, DVD, Roll-N-Lock Cover, ICI Running Boards, CoastalEtech GM Lockpick for DVD/Nav changes in Motion, Back-up Camera...

    2006.5 VW Jetta Special Edition TDI - Blue Graphite - European Spec VW Fact. Nav Radio.

  3. #3
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    Here is a link to a picture of the coach. It is a rear engined unit and since the coach physical structure and weight balance was designed for the weight of the existing 440-I, I am unable to go to a larger power plant without major modifications to the frameing, etc. of the coach. Others in years past have gone to the 1560 lb. 8.2L turbo Detroit Diesel, but had to do much more structural work due to the weight than I am willing to do. That increase in rear end weight also affects the drivability and I like being able to take curves at 10 mph over the posted speed. It is 4 wheel independent suspension with a transverse leaf spring in the front and independent, trailing arm, torsion bar suspension in the rear.


    http://inlinethumb15.webshots.com/36...600x600Q85.jpg

    This a 29' coach so it is much lighter than most diesel powered coaches. I know that both gas or diesel will perform well. The 440 would take it up 6% grades at 55 mph. Either of the options will add significant HP, but the higher torque of the diesel at lower rpm will significanly increase the drivability and have other benefits as well. The torque to lbs. ratio of the Duramax is the perfect match IF it can be done one stop short of Fort Knox. I don't want to go to the Vortec engine and then later learn how well the Duramax would have worked and have "Wish I would have's".

    I expect a conversion to a Duramax to cost 50% more than to a 8.1L Vortec, but the difference in lower rpm torque and other factors would be worth it to me. Either one will be a time consuming job to get all the harness installed and systems working properly. What ever I do, once the conversion is done it can't be redone to try the other way so this is the one opprotunity to get it right.

    My MAJOR question is what happens/will happen if the Allison 5 spd is used and the coach is geared to cruise at the 2300-2400 rpm range. What will this do to a LLY? Nothing? Cause a cooling problem? Burn fuel like crazy?

    At 15,000 lbs. what milage could I expect under cruise control with that weight and rpm?

    At that weight and rpm, what degree grade would trigger a downshift from 5th to 4th? 2% grade? 3% grade? 4% grade?

    A 10,000 lb. trailer plus 3500 dually will weigh as much or more than my coach. In reading posts here, it appears that there are a number of people that run this type of rig on a regular or contunuous basis. Their experiences should parallel what I could expect if I make the conversion. What is the normal rpm of a 2500/3500 with the Allison 5 spd on cruise control at 65 mph?

    I am now focusing on the LLY with the 5 spd as the 6 spd is just too new with too few of numbers on the road to be showing up with salvageable engine/tranys in salvage yards yet. Everyone is still driving carefully with the new trucks!

    If the LLY with the Allison 5 spd appears to be a good fit at the gearing described above, then I can move on to the other issues such as RELATIVE cost, technical aspects, availability, etc., etc..

    This forum is where the experience and knowledge of how a Duramax operates and performs is located. That is why I am asking these questions here and not in an RV forum where I would just get speculation. I have been speculating too much on my own.! Here are the people that actually drive them!!

    I appreaciate everyone's assistance,
    Last edited by BigRabbitMan; 06-09-2007 at 11:17.
    Stephen H.
    BigRabbitMan
    1976 FMC Motor Coach #1046
    Formerly 440, now LBZ
    Rear engined w/4 wheel independent suspension.
    Tow car: 1987 Subaru Brat 4x4
    http://www.fmcowners.com/mbbs22/phot...asp?albumid=77

  4. #4

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    Have you considered swapping in the drivetrain from a 6.5TD motorhome?
    2011 Chevrolet Tahoe 5.3L daily driver
    • Previous owner of two 1994 6.5L K3500s, '01, '02, and '05 6.6L K2500s, '04 C4500, '06 K3500 dually, '06 K3500 SRW, '09 K3500HD SRW, '05 Denali
    • Total GM diesel miles to date : ~950K

  5. #5
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    Mark,

    No I haven't and won't for a couple of reasons. The first is that if I am going to go through the tremendous amount of work that it will take to put any diesel into my coach, I want to be as current in the technology as possible. The second is the constrants of space and weight to power issues with my coach. I am not wanting to diesel the coach just to be "dieseling it". I am looking at some specific attributes that the Duramax has that are not there with earlier engines or other brands.

    If I can't get any answers to the questions I posed above, I will go with the 8.1L Vortec. It's an easier conversion. I am not quite sure why some relatively straight forward questions such as normal rpm at 65 mph are going unanswered.

    Thank you for your interest,
    Stephen H.
    BigRabbitMan
    1976 FMC Motor Coach #1046
    Formerly 440, now LBZ
    Rear engined w/4 wheel independent suspension.
    Tow car: 1987 Subaru Brat 4x4
    http://www.fmcowners.com/mbbs22/phot...asp?albumid=77

  6. #6
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    IIRC, the Allison 5 speed of certain varieties has an aftermarket conversion to make it 6 speed double over. Might check with John Kennedy on that. Be patient, some one will comew along with your answers. In the mean time, gear ratio and tire size might help. I remember a link arround here to a conversion table to determine rpm at a a given speed.

    Good luck and happy motoring.

    A quick search and I found 1 Gear/RPM Calculator

    Hope this helps. If not there was another one on 4x4 site.
    "The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people, it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government."
    -Patrick Henry


    A5150nut
    2006 K3500 D/A
    94 6.5 4x4 5spd Sold

  7. #7
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    Arrow

    Quote Originally Posted by BigRabbitMan
    ......I am not quite sure why some relatively straight forward questions such as normal rpm at 65 mph are going unanswered.

    Thank you for your interest,


    It's not straight forward. Your MH will have a drive ratio unique the the MH. Very different than the vast majority discussed here. Your RPMs will be the same in direct (Allison 4th gear), regardless of the tranny. The 5/6 speed Allisons will have an OD of .71 in 5th, and .61 in 6th. Just do some math (or ask for help with it) and compare it to what you have. Unless you plan on changing the tire size and/or drive ratio, it will be the same, with an addition of OD(s). A 6 speed may not be the best answer if you have no OD now. If you have a 70's era auto tranny (TH400?), it will have a direct final gear. Adding any OD will be a bonus, and a lockup converter won't hurt, either. With the weight you are dealing with, a double OD won't help unless you have a deep enough final drive ratio.
    1985 Blazer 6.2
    2001 GMC 2500HD D/A
    dmaxmaverick@thedieselpage.com

  8. #8
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    Nice looking coach. I can tell you take really good care of it and have alot of modern conviences added... To your fuel mileage question, I will sum it up based on what the RV salesman told me. "No one buys these things for the mileage they get." Gas or Diesel I doubt you'll break 10mpg. based on your description of your driving habits. This is of course, my opinion, and is based upon my unique experiences.

    BTW, I drive RV's between 75-80 mph too... So don't take the comment as a flame.
    2007 Silverado, 3500HD, 4X4, CC, Long Bed, SRW, LMM Diesel, Navi, DVD, Roll-N-Lock Cover, ICI Running Boards, CoastalEtech GM Lockpick for DVD/Nav changes in Motion, Back-up Camera...

    2006.5 VW Jetta Special Edition TDI - Blue Graphite - European Spec VW Fact. Nav Radio.

  9. #9
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    Talking

    I don't know much about "repowering" M/H but I can say from experience STAY AWAY FROM THE 6.5 TURBO DIESEL! The DMAX or the 8.1 is the best way to go!!
    1998 Chevy k-2500 454 147,000 miles and climbing!

    1993 Pontiac G/A Big Block 3.3 Liter 140,000 miles and still going too!

  10. #10
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    Wasn't there an article on here a while ago about an older FMC motorhome that was converted to a DMax? That one was also rear engine.
    1987 Jeep Grand Wagoneer...new 6.5 in process...diamond block, 18:1's, other goodies...


  11. #11
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    Yes, in 2004 and it is no longer online. I would be more interested in finding out who the builder/owner was/is to see what the long term report has to say than how he did the conversion.

    I see the conversion just as a tedious process once all the needed hardware is identified and obtained. Every conversion has differences that reflect the ideas and preferences of the person doing the conversion. I would hope to do a good job of documenting what I do so that others who are wanting to prolong the life of and moderize their FMC will have a path to follow. Of the 1050 of them built from 1972-76, it is estimated that 700-800 of them are still on the road.

    My coach (as all of them) originally had the Chrysler 440-I (Industrial or Marine version) and a Loadflite 3 spd transmission. I previously swapped the transmission to an Allison 545 and replaced the carburator with an Edelbrock MPI fuel injection system so I am no stranger to conversion or modification. Here is a picture that shows a different modification I did. That is a satellite internet dish deployed while we stopped at a beach in southern California.


    With that engine having toasted due to water pump failure, now is the time to look at going to the next level. I may swap in a used 440 that I am aware of to be able to use the coach while I am assembling and designing the conversion over to the Duramax and modern Allison.

    Thank you for your assistance and interest,
    Stephen H.
    BigRabbitMan
    1976 FMC Motor Coach #1046
    Formerly 440, now LBZ
    Rear engined w/4 wheel independent suspension.
    Tow car: 1987 Subaru Brat 4x4
    http://www.fmcowners.com/mbbs22/phot...asp?albumid=77

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dakster
    BTW, I drive RV's between 75-80 mph too... So don't take the comment as a flame.
    A double overdrive would make for sweet traveling at 80 mph!!!!!
    Stephen H.
    BigRabbitMan
    1976 FMC Motor Coach #1046
    Formerly 440, now LBZ
    Rear engined w/4 wheel independent suspension.
    Tow car: 1987 Subaru Brat 4x4
    http://www.fmcowners.com/mbbs22/phot...asp?albumid=77

  13. #13
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    Default rpm

    I believe that a stock DMAX w/3.73 gear & stock 2.45 75R16's runs about 2400 @ 75mph. My 99 sub 6.5L ran that & I expect the DMAX to do about the same when it hits the road since I didn't change gears.
    99 Sub L65<BR>IC,3.5\" Kennedy Exh.& boost cont.,TT PCM, FSD cooler(didn\'t help),rr bar,Isspro gages,B&M trans control
    Gordon Marks

  14. #14
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    BigRabbitMan,

    Have you made any decisions or started on the project?
    2007 Silverado, 3500HD, 4X4, CC, Long Bed, SRW, LMM Diesel, Navi, DVD, Roll-N-Lock Cover, ICI Running Boards, CoastalEtech GM Lockpick for DVD/Nav changes in Motion, Back-up Camera...

    2006.5 VW Jetta Special Edition TDI - Blue Graphite - European Spec VW Fact. Nav Radio.

  15. #15
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    My dad has the 2900 R (1974) and quite possibly I will be inheriting it someday.

    We have the 454/4L80e in it and got 8 MPG with the TH400 and yet to get enough driving data with the 4L80e.

    I also would like to consider the LMM/Allison 6 speed. Weight on the engine is comparable. 1000 should be similar to the 545.

    Jim Black told me that vibration was a problem with diesels in the 2900R and it would need significant body (structural) strengthening that he does. the Duramax may not have those vibration issues (that would be my hope).

    I am impressed with the 454, and possibly will keep it in favor of diesel... But may inject it to improve efficiency

  16. #16
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    Specifics:

    The Marine Ind. 440: Weight: Long block as shipped: 670#
    With accessories and manifolds it will easily be over 700

    The Duramax (when introduced) was touted at 835 Lbs.

    165 Lbs heavier seems like a safe ball park figure for weight.
    Moving the exhaust (massive muffler) out of the engine bay will save you another good bit of weight.

  17. #17
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    Talking Update on prior conversion and LBZ purchase

    Quote Originally Posted by journeyman View Post
    My dad has the 2900 R (1974) and quite possibly I will be inheriting it someday.

    Jim Black told me that vibration was a problem with diesels in the 2900R and it would need significant body (structural) strengthening that he does. the Duramax may not have those vibration issues (that would be my hope).
    Jim Black (of RVS, FMC authorized repair facility - Morgan Hill, CA) and Leslie Hoagland of Motor Coach Restoration in Illinois have only dealt with older diesels: the 8.2L detroit and 6 cyl in line Cummins. Either of those engines will have vibration issues, but more importantly weight issues and a narrow torque curve that do in fact force structual strenghtening. That is why I eliminated them upfront. I know both Jim and Lesle,and respect them both but in this case they are both still thinking old school.

    As Journeyman indicated, in the case of the FMC pounds are important and the difference between the Duramax and other modern light weight diesels eliminated all others on that factor alone.

    Since my last posting, I was able to make contact with the current owner [he did not do the conversion] of the FMC that was converted a few of years ago and written up on The Diesel Page. He surfaced at an FMC rally held in Colorado last month. While I wasn't able to be at that rally, I have received some very complete descriptions of how the conversion altered the fuctioning of the coach. Those descriptions were all good!

    Here are a few:
    "The coach has a 5-speed model 1000 transmission. It turns about 1700 rpm at 65 mph." [note: In my opinion that is too slow.]
    "When we started up La Veta pass, Jim Evans [440 carb powered] (in the lead) said over the radio that he wouldn't be insulted if anyone passed him, so I [440 fuel injection powered] pulled out and stormed up the hill past everyone [This included a turbo inline 6 cyl Cummins]. Dave Jacobs followed in the Duramax coach, and when I waved him to come on by, he passed us like we were nearly going backwards! It was very impressive - and sounded great, too."
    "Coach #735 performed perfectly, getting 11.2 mpg pulling the Bimmer (left in Colo. Sprgs for A/C repair) and 13.8 mpg empty including going over 3 mountain passes over 10,000 feet including Wolf Creek Pass (10,550 ft) which is the curviest and steepest I've ever seen."
    "Several miles out from Pagosa Springs, we started the long climb up Wolf Creek Pass (10,857 ft). I suggest that Dave proceed ahead, and they proceeded to disappear again ;-) I didn't push it [440 fuel injected]: we stayed near the 35 mph speed limit at 3500 rpm in 2nd gear (Allison AT545 4-speed) all the way up the climb."

    It should be noted that no frame issues were evident with the Duramax converted coach even though it still had the stock frame.

    As all of you can understand, having read the above plus additional comments any thoughts of an 8.1 vortec disappeared. It also encouraged me as to the thoughts of converting to a Duramax. I came to two conclusions: for this conversion, it needs to use the 6 speed double overdrive transmission so that the stock 4.62:1 differential can still be used as that combination gives a good transfer of torque to the ground with 65 mph at about 1900 rpm, and that if it would be possible to locate an LBZ it would be best. An LLY would also be fine. The above coach has an LB7.

    I then made the mistake last week of typing in Duramax LBZ in the search window of eBay! To shorten the story, I am now the proud owner of a used LBZ that was obtained at an attractive price! I guess I am now commited.

    The following is the body of an email I wrote to a fellow FMC owner:
    "What this purchase did was commit me to a methodology in that I can no longer look for a matched engine/transmission set. It is now piecemeal and just do the stuff that has to be done to make the pieces work together. That will take awhile. One of the reasons I went ahead is that a matched Duramax LBZ and Allison MH (Motor Home) transmission doesn’t exist. No motor home manufacturer has used the Duramax to this date so they aren’t matched to a MH transmission. Motor home manufactures have either used a gas engine or Cummins or Powerstroke. I already had eliminated those engines so I had effectively eliminated a matched set with the MH transmission. That left the possibility of a matched LBZ with a 6 spd Allison, but one that would have to be converted from a standard arrangement to the MH version with the driveline parking brake. Given the attractive price I paid for this LBZ, I went ahead and set pattern.

    "Now the game plan is to obtain a matched ECM (engine control module) and TCM (transmission control module) from a Duramax LBZ / 6 spd Allison equipped wreck including wiring harness(s) if possible. That will be used to control a used Allison 1000MH 6 speed. This will be a challenge to obtain as the 6 speed is 2006 or newer, but this is why the year or more timeline to complete the conversion. In my dreams, I would prefer to use the Allison 2500MH with the lower first and second gear, but the population of those is so small I can most likely forget it. Which ever model Allison (1000, 2200, 2500) I do end up using, I do want it to have a parking pawl. Not all of them have one. [Note: the 2550 has the pawl.]

    "Then comes the question of how to control the transmission. One possibility would be to obtain the push button, paddle controller found in some newer motor homes. It is 100% electrical I believe. This could most likely be mounted on the inside of the drivers door (or left side of the drivers seat stand) and, therefore, not be involved with the dashboard or driver/passenger area. Whether or not it could be mounted into the dash in the area of the existing shifter is not known.

    "So the “you” part of the “we” is to start looking for the pieces and parts needed to complete the job. Start crawling through the junkyards looking for donor vehicles for the above items.

    "Understand that I am not committed to the actual conversion until all component parts have been secured. The Duramax LBZ that is now on the way can be resold if all other components are not located at a reasonable price or if some other issue prevents the conversion."

    Who am I kidding!! I am now fully addicted to the conversion of my coach to a Duramax LBZ with an Allison 6 speed behind it and ALL issues will be surmounted.

    You now have the current status and know what some of the additional parts
    needed include. I am going to try very hard to get hold of a 2550MH transmisson. The lower gearing of the first two gears may over time prove to help alleviate any frame issues as the torque is then easily transfered to the wheels when starting out without needing a stiff frame to hold the engine back from rotating.

    Wish me luck and if any of you come across any of the items I need (everythng!) please give me an email at Stephen at Heinrichs dot com.

    I will post updates as major events happen.
    Stephen H.
    BigRabbitMan
    1976 FMC Motor Coach #1046
    Formerly 440, now LBZ
    Rear engined w/4 wheel independent suspension.
    Tow car: 1987 Subaru Brat 4x4
    http://www.fmcowners.com/mbbs22/phot...asp?albumid=77

  18. #18
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    Nice... Glad you decided to try it. Good luck with locating all of the parts to do it. In the MH's I've driven all where 2003 and Newer, 40' with either cummins or cat motors and the allision tranny. They had the shifter you are talking about. It appears to be all electrical and I have seen them mounted on the arm rest, on the dash to the left AND right of the steering wheel. One had it in the center console area which was still reachable by the driver. They seem to be fairly flexible for mounting.

    You may want to look in a MH junkyard to get the tranny and controller you need?

    I look forward to updates!
    2007 Silverado, 3500HD, 4X4, CC, Long Bed, SRW, LMM Diesel, Navi, DVD, Roll-N-Lock Cover, ICI Running Boards, CoastalEtech GM Lockpick for DVD/Nav changes in Motion, Back-up Camera...

    2006.5 VW Jetta Special Edition TDI - Blue Graphite - European Spec VW Fact. Nav Radio.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dakster View Post
    You may want to look in a MH junkyard to get the tranny and controller you need?
    I look forward to updates!
    One of the questions that I need to get answered is what trans controllers are compatible with the Duramax's ECM. Will a TCM that originally was used with a Cummins or International also work with a Duramax (GM) ECM or will GM's propietory programing also require a GM TCM to be compatable. Are the plugs compatable? I expect the transmissions to all be the same, just different controllers so I should be able to plug a GM TCM into any Allison transmission regarless of source.

    Everyone's thoughts are welcome.
    Stephen H.
    BigRabbitMan
    1976 FMC Motor Coach #1046
    Formerly 440, now LBZ
    Rear engined w/4 wheel independent suspension.
    Tow car: 1987 Subaru Brat 4x4
    http://www.fmcowners.com/mbbs22/phot...asp?albumid=77

  20. #20
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    May 2007
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    Dixon, CA
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    84

    Default LBZ arrived

    Here is a link to where pictues of the engine I purchased are posted. The first couple of pictures are what I purchased and the last three are what greated me at the trucking terminal.
    http://www.fmcowners.com/mbbs22/phot...asp?albumid=29

    I have just secured an engine stand and will now attach the engine to it where I can assess the shipping damage so that a claim can be submitted and so that the engiine will be properly stored and ready to be worked on when the time arrives.
    Stephen H.
    BigRabbitMan
    1976 FMC Motor Coach #1046
    Formerly 440, now LBZ
    Rear engined w/4 wheel independent suspension.
    Tow car: 1987 Subaru Brat 4x4
    http://www.fmcowners.com/mbbs22/phot...asp?albumid=77

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