LML Exhaust Regeneration

[in4it]

The single most important fact to come out of our discussion was that the vehicle owner must always present themselves as someone who is reasonable and possible to satisfy. Those who present themselves as angry sue-mongers won't be (cannot be) helped. The traditional court system is for them. If someone wants a full account for what to do in a dispute, let me know. The arbitrator and I wrote an article that outlines how to deal with the system and have the best chance of getting what you want.

More Power,
I am reasonable. It is possible to satisfy me. Give me a new vehicle that works. Pretty simple! it is a reasonable request. I spent 60-70K on a truck and an additional $4 OR MORE thus far. I was fooled and was sold a truck with problems. If GM had a solution it should have come within the first 3-6 months, NOT, almost 2 yrs. later and their is still no solution.

I am not sue happy, but, I am entitled to seek legal counsel regarding the lemon law, which I have done.

[rapidoxidationman]

........The arbitrator and I wrote an article that outlines how to deal with the system and have the best chance of getting what you want.

I'd be interested in reading that article, whether you post it here, link it, or send me a link via PM.

Knowledge never hurts...

[More Power]

I am not sue happy, but, I am entitled to seek legal counsel regarding the lemon law, which I have done.

I know you didn't know, but if you had posted a list of things you'd done to help solve this problem, and was at the end of ideas for a solution (before threatening legal action), I would have helped - by pointing out what options were available to you and providing knowledge about how the system works. Once legal action is brought into the mix, there is nothing I or anyone else can do for you.

For everyone else, I will update the arbitrator piece, and put it back on the web site - good solid information that doesn't create barriers.

[in4it]

More Power,

As a consumer I bought a truck. GM built the vehicle. The vehicle never worked properly!!!! For me and obviously other LML owners. Now it is OUR issue? The vehicle has been back to the dealer for constant regeneration issues since December 2012. I bough it November 2012. Same issue to date. What options do we have?

Update:
I called the dealer on 9-19 to find out about my truck and when I might see it. The Service Tech called me back to let me know that they still have not found the problem and that the truck was still having constant regenerations and building soot to quickly. The message said that they would need till next week. I called GM Customer Care and left a message on 9-19 and 9-22. Jennifer called me back on Monday to tell me that the dealer had to order another part. That being known I did not get another call until the afternoon of 9-25. Jennifer called and asked if I had heard from the dealer. I told her no. Curiosity set in. I called the Service Tech just after 4pm yesterday to find out how work was progressing. He said that his Management told him to stop working on the truck. Then he asked if I received a call from his managers. He told me that I voided the vehicle warranty. He said that the would talk to his manager and call me back. I have not heard anything since. I called back Customer Care and talked to Jennifer to find out what was going on. I told her that I will call back the dealer between 10-11 today if I do not hear anything.

If I voided the vehicle warranty by installing an aftermarket cold air intake system, why was this not pointed out after the multiple times the dealers seen the vehicle. Why did both dealers continue to do warranty service work after seeing the system on the vehicle since the summer of last year? Why is it an issue now? When I dropped the truck back off on 9-8 with the stock intake system was the after market system removed and the vehicle tested? How was the performance? Same results?

I am guessing that GM cannot pin point the problem.

[DmaxMaverick]

Installing aftermarket equipment doesn't "void" any warranty (Magnussen-Moss Act). However, installing aftermarket equipment may cause a denial of warranty coverage if the needed repair/correction is caused or affected by an aftermarket equipment installation, or modification of OEM equipment.

If your too-frequent regeneration issue is due to excessive soot, the "cold air intake" may be related, somewhat, to the dealer and GM's handling of the issue. To start with, if may contribute to some of their skepticism. Many (most, probably) folks who add engine performance modifications don't usually stop at just an intake system. Meaning, to the dealer/GM, you probably also had some sort of fueling/power modification (whether you actually did or not).

This means:

If you, or a previous owner, did actually install an electronic power device, or modify the system to provide more fuel/power, whether or not that was your initial intent, the expected result may be excessive soot, requiring more frequent regenerations. Result: warranty denied, for that repair/complaint.

Or,
The truck has never had any fueling modifications, but the dealer/GM assumes it does/did, supported by evidence of some sort (like other performance modifications, in their opinion). Result: warranty denied, for that repair/complaint.

All that said, you may have, intentionally or otherwise, caused a warranty denial situation by installing the cold air intake system. These systems often do more than only allow cold air into the engine. The MAF, temperature and pressure sensors are mounted to the air intake system, and rely on the airflow velocities and routing for accurate sensor data the PCM uses to determine fuel and injection timing maps. Modifying the OEM air intake system, in almost any way, will have some affect on the airflow through the plumbing and into the engine. This alone may cause issues with fuel, timing and emission parameters. Restoring the intake to the OEM configuration should correct this issue, but may take some time/miles to actually show a positive result.

Another possibility, looking at it in the most simple way I can think of (and not heard mention of), is a leaking DPF fuel injector (not that a fuel injector would ever leak). This could cause excessive soot, and would likely cause more frequent regeneration.

[in4it]

installing aftermarket equipment doesn't "void" any warranty (magnussen-moss act). However, installing aftermarket equipment may cause a denial of warranty coverage if the needed repair/correction is caused or affected by an aftermarket equipment installation, or modification of oem equipment.

who determines this?

if your too-frequent regeneration issue is due to excessive soot, the "cold air intake" may be related, somewhat, to the dealer and gm's handling of the issue. To start with, if may contribute to some of their skepticism. Many (most, probably) folks who add engine performance modifications don't usually stop at just an intake system. Meaning, to the dealer/gm, you probably also had some sort of fueling/power modification (whether you actually did or not).

no nothing else was changed. The stock intake was brought back to the dealer to be reinstalled if required to perform additional tests. The regeneration issues were seen prior to the installation of the after market cold air intake system in the middle of the summer last year. Bone stock still was causing frequent regeneration problems.

this means:

If you, or a previous owner, did actually install an electronic power device, or modify the system to provide more fuel/power, whether or not that was your initial intent, the expected result may be excessive soot, requiring more frequent regenerations. Result: Warranty denied, for that repair/complaint.

i am the original owner and i have never installed or modified the trucks system.

or,
the truck has never had any fueling modifications, but the dealer/gm assumes it does/did, supported by evidence of some sort (like other performance modifications, in their opinion). Result: Warranty denied, for that repair/complaint.

i have called 3 times to the dealer and left 3 messages and have made 1 call to customer care today to find out why work stopped on the vehicle and i have not had a response from anyone.

all that said, you may have, intentionally or otherwise, caused a warranty denial situation by installing the cold air intake system. These systems often do more than only allow cold air into the engine. The maf, temperature and pressure sensors are mounted to the air intake system, and rely on the airflow velocities and routing for accurate sensor data the pcm uses to determine fuel and injection timing maps. Modifying the oem air intake system, in almost any way, will have some affect on the airflow through the plumbing and into the engine. This alone may cause issues with fuel, timing and emission parameters. Restoring the intake to the oem configuration should correct this issue, but may take some time/miles to actually show a positive result.

again, it is documented in my service report that the vehcile had the problem with the original stock intake system on the vehicle before i looked into other options to improve mpg not performance.

another possibility, looking at it in the most simple way i can think of (and not heard mention of), is a leaking dpf fuel injector (not that a fuel injector would ever leak). This could cause excessive soot, and would likely cause more frequent regeneration.

One more thing, if i have taken the vehicle back into the dealer for the same thing repeated times and everything has been covered under warranty why wait until now?????

because they want me to go away? Only thing i want is a truck that works like it should. It never did.

[in4it]

Installing aftermarket equipment doesn't "void" any warranty (Magnussen-Moss Act). However, installing aftermarket equipment may cause a denial of warranty coverage if the needed repair/correction is caused or affected by an aftermarket equipment installation, or modification of OEM equipment.

This means:
The truck has never had any fueling modifications, but the dealer/GM assumes it does/did, supported by evidence of some sort (like other performance modifications, in their opinion). Result: warranty denied, for that repair/complaint.

The way I read it, COP OUT!!!!

A person who fails to fulfill a commitment or responsibility. 3. An excuse for inaction or evasion. cop′-out`

GM does not know how to fix the problem.

[rapidoxidationman]

Eddie,

Then you must know that the LML engines have this problem. How long has GM known that this was a problem? Why has there not been anything done to resolve the problem? I asked another 2015 owner who said he said he did not have a problem and that his had only triggered a regen after 2K miles.

What causes the problem? Seeing as how there is a litany of crap that it could be. The biggest worry is that after the warranty is up on the DPF after 50K, is the customer to eat the cost of a new DPF and installation after spending 60-70K on a new truck?

Obviously, you are familiar with this problem and GM knows about it. What else is going on inside the engine block with all the build up of soot? What other damage is being done internally to the engine. What else is being destroyed or damaged? If GM wants to make me go away, quit posting on multiple forums, quit calling daily to customer care, stop writing emails to the corporation, stop visiting dealers, stop asking questions, and visiting lawyer regarding the lemon laws, it is simple: give me a truck that functions like a 3500HD truck.

I wonder if this might have anything to do with why GM suddenly decided to stop working on your truck... Sometimes it is best to keep your "behind the scenes" activities behind the scenes and not on a public forum that the company in question has representatives on.

Just a guess.

Still sucks that your truck is being a FORD (fixed or repaired daily)...

[CoyleJR]

If you bought the truck in Nov 2012 and the problem was addressed to the dealer in Dec 2012 it has had a problem since it was new. When did you install the cold air intake? I doubt that you installed it during the first month of ownership.

[in4it]

CoyleJR, Mid-Summer 2013.

[in4it]

I wonder if this might have anything to do with why GM suddenly decided to stop working on your truck... Sometimes it is best to keep your "behind the scenes" activities behind the scenes and not on a public forum that the company in question has representatives on.

Just a guess.

Still sucks that your truck is being a FORD (fixed or repaired daily)...

rapidoxidationman,
With all respect, I do not have a problem posting my issue on a public forum. I know there are more people out there that are suffering from GM's issue that they cannot solve.

Last I remember this is a free country. I consulted a lemon lawyer to find out options. Is this my preferred method to deal with the issue, NO. I made a simple request to the District Manager who is hiding behind his position to replace my truck. They have not provided a solution to the problem for almost 2 years and GM STILL DOES NOT have a solution. The truck has been in and out of service for more than 30 days for the same issue. How else can you make a PIA go away? Cut him off when it is going to cost him money.

Well, it still does not solve the problem. There are many more LML vehicle owners that have the same problem and nothing is being done.

Remember, if a consumer purchases a vehicle from the OEM and they buy an extended warranty, the OEM has to honor the warranty. GM just cannot find any excuse to not work on the vehicle. The problem was there from day one when the vehicle left the lot after purchase. They sold their problem to me. I did not ask for it. I simply asked to have it fixed for over 2 years now.

[More Power]

There have been times in the past where a GM truck owner installed some aftermarket part, and then GM denied warranty coverage they claim was related.

The resolution was arbitration. Reps from GM and reps from the aftermarket provided proof, and an arbitrator made a decision that everyone agreed to - that was outside of the legal system.

Once a truck owner initiates a court action, the arbitration system cannot be used - it gets very expensive and it can take years to resolve. Everyone hates the other. Arbitration is the better choice nearly every time. Always - always try arbitration before engaging in legal action. But, as you pointed out, this is a free country.

[in4it]

More Power,

Legal advise was sought. Not retained. Who determines arbitration?

[More Power]

More Power,

Legal advise was sought. Not retained. Who determines arbitration?

Most states have an arbitrator who is the recognized and legal means of consumer action between vehicle owners and automobile manufacturers under your state’s Lemon Law. Your state’s Better Business Bureau and Attorney General’s office will be able to provide you with the necessary information to initiate a consumer action involving arbitration. Jim

[in4it]

Hello in4it,

I understand how frustrating frequent regens can be. I’m sorry you’ve experienced this with your LML and that it’s been at the dealership for a while. However, it’s good to hear the techs are diligently working on it for you! Please let me know if you’d like me to contact them for any follow ups. I’m happy to assist any way I can and will be on the lookout for updates.

Sincerely,

Eddie A.
GM Customer Care

You know what is sad? When you leave your vehicle at a dealer for over a month and you still have the same problem even after 2 years after purchase. Both district managers know about the problem. Then they tell you that we are canceling your warranty on this issue and you have to pay out of your own pocket for something we cannot resolve. If you show up with an open check book later it might cost $2000 dollars to try and potentially solve the problem by replacing the ECM, the people in charge do not know if that will solve the problem. So why would I cut a check? So it may end up costing more????? This is pathetic!!
Give us 24-48 hours. You will hear back on Friday. Monday comes around, give us another 24-48 hours. Really? What's next?

[in4it]

I still think there is software problem related to the algorithms calculating the soot grams.

"The regeneration parameters are still based on time, distance, fuel and soot loading, but the algorithms used to determine regeneration now allow more time between generation events."

http://www.merchant-automotive.com/tech/lml.pdf

Which goes back to my comment in the past about this being a software problem and the truck can be programmed. There are technicians that have programmed trucks to go longer between regenerations, but, what is right? What is the correct time between regenerations to ensure engine and internal component longevity?

It is not related to the ECM or how many times the vehicles computer has been flashed. The ECM would have more problems if that were the real problem. From my investigations.

If the differential pressure sensor was replaced 8-18 through 8-22, and, both the old and the new sensors did not alter the constant regenerations, did anyone check the pressure in the system through the DPF? The system could be calculating higher soot because the DPF filter is plugged. The test during 9-8 thru 9-26 "found the DPF sensor reading at 0 all times per 2459 could not move EGR valve. Replace sensor and EGR all working now. Still regens"

The next thing I would like checked is the wire harness throughout the vehicle. From my investigations, there might be loose pins in some of the connector plugs that maybe shorting out.

The aftermarket air filter has nothing to do with this problem so I have been told. It is not a MAFS because all it does is calculate the air temp coming in and reporting how much fuel to mix. I had told the service team that the stock intake was in the back of the truck when it was dropped off on 9-8 at the dealer. I offered to pay for the installation to check the system both ways. To my knowledge the stock intake was not installed or tested when I picked up the truck on 9-26. I am still having the same issues. Now that the EGR valve has been worked on, an even bigger white cloud of smoke emits from the tail pipe 1/4 to a 1/2 mile long after picking up the truck on 9-26.

At this point, without any testing equipment and not being a GM Technician, I think that the injector in the down pipe before the SCR is the culprit. Why? Because of the additional white smoke out of the tail pipe at the start of a regeneration. This was part of the GM bulletin that was released in Sept. 2011 regarding the 9th injector and the spray pattern. http://www.archivedsites.com/techlink/2011/09/duramax-diesel-exhaust-system-fluid-injectors.html

I have re-installed the stock intake, which took 35 minutes, since the dealer did not do it over the course of 3 weeks. This problem is NOT something that I did to the truck it was there at purchase and documented.

I have offered solutions. I am not going away!

Regens still take place every 100 miles up to this point. I will monitor the CTS to see what kind of changes there are between the 2 intake systems. There was a difference installing a new air filter and it extended the regenerations. It made them more regular.