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  1. #1
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    Question Converting early gas MH to Duramax? Possible?

    I have a '70's era motor home that weighs about 15,000 lbs. and with a tow vehicle gcvw could get to 18,000 lbs. I am going to replace the existing power train with a modern power train. At this point I feel my options are either stay with gas and convert to the GM 8.1L Vortec with the Allison 1000/2000 transmission or convert to the LLY or LBZ with a matched Allison 1000. Given the natural low rpm torque profiles and better performance at altitude of tubo diesel, I would prefer to go to diesel even though it will be more complicated. It also is easier to avoid fuel quality problems in Central America where I will be traveling at some point with diesel vs gas.

    With the existing gearing of my unit, in 5th the engine will be turning about 2300-2400 rpm at 65 mph. This seems a little high to me for a cruising rpm for a diesel engine. If the new 6 speed Allison and matched engine can be found, it would turn 1800-1900 rpm at 65mph. That seems better to me as the engine is just turning fewer rpm with less wear and should/would get better fuel economy.

    Now the questions:

    Is my weight too high as a constant weight/load? What are the different characteristics of the LLY/LBZ at those two rpm levels? What are the torque/economy trade offs? Is the LLY/LBZ happy at the higher rpm as normal rpm? Where can I find a downloadable copy of the torque curves of the LLY and the LBZ?

    The weight of the 6.6L is close to the weight of the existing engine and I will completely redesign the cooling system. Others that have reviewed my plans are about evenly divided between thinking it is a great idea to move to one of these modern power/transmission combinations to thinking I am out of my mind. That is probably true, but I won't let it get in the way!

    To make the transition, I would purchase a used engine/trany with engine and trany wiring harness and computers and anything else needed. My existing engine had a water pump failure and overheated to the point that major engine damage resulted so now is the time to make a change if I am ever going to do it. The coach is a 1976 FMC.

    I thank all you knowledgable Duramax experts for your learned advise.
    Stephen H.
    BigRabbitMan
    1976 FMC Motor Coach #1046
    Formerly 440, now LBZ
    Rear engined w/4 wheel independent suspension.
    Tow car: 1987 Subaru Brat 4x4
    http://www.fmcowners.com/mbbs22/phot...asp?albumid=77

  2. #2
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    I can't help with the intricacies of conversion. Having driven both GAS and DIESEL Motorhomes. I vote for the diesel MH. Since you are upgrading from a 70's era gas motor to a current gas/diesel motor I would be shocked if you didn't get alot more power and better mileage then you are now. Diesel should last a lot longer they are better designed for moving lots of weight. I like the quiet diesel (onan/cummins) generators - again lasts longer and uses a little less fuel per watt.

    If money is an issue, the gas motor should cost a lot less to install and should be taken into consideration. Unless you have a friend willing to donate his used DMAX motor...

    However, I know many a diesel RV that get in 5-6 MPG range, so I wouldn't expect great fuel mileage numbers. Granted these are 40' RV's that empty weigh 23k and towing a car.

    Not that I believe either of these motors are the holly grail of RV motors. But have you researched the most common motors found in large RV's? (Cat / Cummins) I would want all options on the table to pick thru, before I made my choice. Especially since just PARTWISE you are looking at spending some serious cash.
    2007 Silverado, 3500HD, 4X4, CC, Long Bed, SRW, LMM Diesel, Navi, DVD, Roll-N-Lock Cover, ICI Running Boards, CoastalEtech GM Lockpick for DVD/Nav changes in Motion, Back-up Camera...

    2006.5 VW Jetta Special Edition TDI - Blue Graphite - European Spec VW Fact. Nav Radio.

  3. #3
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    Here is a link to a picture of the coach. It is a rear engined unit and since the coach physical structure and weight balance was designed for the weight of the existing 440-I, I am unable to go to a larger power plant without major modifications to the frameing, etc. of the coach. Others in years past have gone to the 1560 lb. 8.2L turbo Detroit Diesel, but had to do much more structural work due to the weight than I am willing to do. That increase in rear end weight also affects the drivability and I like being able to take curves at 10 mph over the posted speed. It is 4 wheel independent suspension with a transverse leaf spring in the front and independent, trailing arm, torsion bar suspension in the rear.


    http://inlinethumb15.webshots.com/36...600x600Q85.jpg

    This a 29' coach so it is much lighter than most diesel powered coaches. I know that both gas or diesel will perform well. The 440 would take it up 6% grades at 55 mph. Either of the options will add significant HP, but the higher torque of the diesel at lower rpm will significanly increase the drivability and have other benefits as well. The torque to lbs. ratio of the Duramax is the perfect match IF it can be done one stop short of Fort Knox. I don't want to go to the Vortec engine and then later learn how well the Duramax would have worked and have "Wish I would have's".

    I expect a conversion to a Duramax to cost 50% more than to a 8.1L Vortec, but the difference in lower rpm torque and other factors would be worth it to me. Either one will be a time consuming job to get all the harness installed and systems working properly. What ever I do, once the conversion is done it can't be redone to try the other way so this is the one opprotunity to get it right.

    My MAJOR question is what happens/will happen if the Allison 5 spd is used and the coach is geared to cruise at the 2300-2400 rpm range. What will this do to a LLY? Nothing? Cause a cooling problem? Burn fuel like crazy?

    At 15,000 lbs. what milage could I expect under cruise control with that weight and rpm?

    At that weight and rpm, what degree grade would trigger a downshift from 5th to 4th? 2% grade? 3% grade? 4% grade?

    A 10,000 lb. trailer plus 3500 dually will weigh as much or more than my coach. In reading posts here, it appears that there are a number of people that run this type of rig on a regular or contunuous basis. Their experiences should parallel what I could expect if I make the conversion. What is the normal rpm of a 2500/3500 with the Allison 5 spd on cruise control at 65 mph?

    I am now focusing on the LLY with the 5 spd as the 6 spd is just too new with too few of numbers on the road to be showing up with salvageable engine/tranys in salvage yards yet. Everyone is still driving carefully with the new trucks!

    If the LLY with the Allison 5 spd appears to be a good fit at the gearing described above, then I can move on to the other issues such as RELATIVE cost, technical aspects, availability, etc., etc..

    This forum is where the experience and knowledge of how a Duramax operates and performs is located. That is why I am asking these questions here and not in an RV forum where I would just get speculation. I have been speculating too much on my own.! Here are the people that actually drive them!!

    I appreaciate everyone's assistance,
    Last edited by BigRabbitMan; 06-09-2007 at 11:17.
    Stephen H.
    BigRabbitMan
    1976 FMC Motor Coach #1046
    Formerly 440, now LBZ
    Rear engined w/4 wheel independent suspension.
    Tow car: 1987 Subaru Brat 4x4
    http://www.fmcowners.com/mbbs22/phot...asp?albumid=77

  4. #4

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    Have you considered swapping in the drivetrain from a 6.5TD motorhome?
    2011 Chevrolet Tahoe 5.3L daily driver
    • Previous owner of two 1994 6.5L K3500s, '01, '02, and '05 6.6L K2500s, '04 C4500, '06 K3500 dually, '06 K3500 SRW, '09 K3500HD SRW, '05 Denali
    • Total GM diesel miles to date : ~950K

  5. #5
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    Mark,

    No I haven't and won't for a couple of reasons. The first is that if I am going to go through the tremendous amount of work that it will take to put any diesel into my coach, I want to be as current in the technology as possible. The second is the constrants of space and weight to power issues with my coach. I am not wanting to diesel the coach just to be "dieseling it". I am looking at some specific attributes that the Duramax has that are not there with earlier engines or other brands.

    If I can't get any answers to the questions I posed above, I will go with the 8.1L Vortec. It's an easier conversion. I am not quite sure why some relatively straight forward questions such as normal rpm at 65 mph are going unanswered.

    Thank you for your interest,
    Stephen H.
    BigRabbitMan
    1976 FMC Motor Coach #1046
    Formerly 440, now LBZ
    Rear engined w/4 wheel independent suspension.
    Tow car: 1987 Subaru Brat 4x4
    http://www.fmcowners.com/mbbs22/phot...asp?albumid=77

  6. #6
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    IIRC, the Allison 5 speed of certain varieties has an aftermarket conversion to make it 6 speed double over. Might check with John Kennedy on that. Be patient, some one will comew along with your answers. In the mean time, gear ratio and tire size might help. I remember a link arround here to a conversion table to determine rpm at a a given speed.

    Good luck and happy motoring.

    A quick search and I found 1 Gear/RPM Calculator

    Hope this helps. If not there was another one on 4x4 site.
    "The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people, it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government."
    -Patrick Henry


    A5150nut
    2006 K3500 D/A
    94 6.5 4x4 5spd Sold

  7. #7
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    Arrow

    Quote Originally Posted by BigRabbitMan
    ......I am not quite sure why some relatively straight forward questions such as normal rpm at 65 mph are going unanswered.

    Thank you for your interest,


    It's not straight forward. Your MH will have a drive ratio unique the the MH. Very different than the vast majority discussed here. Your RPMs will be the same in direct (Allison 4th gear), regardless of the tranny. The 5/6 speed Allisons will have an OD of .71 in 5th, and .61 in 6th. Just do some math (or ask for help with it) and compare it to what you have. Unless you plan on changing the tire size and/or drive ratio, it will be the same, with an addition of OD(s). A 6 speed may not be the best answer if you have no OD now. If you have a 70's era auto tranny (TH400?), it will have a direct final gear. Adding any OD will be a bonus, and a lockup converter won't hurt, either. With the weight you are dealing with, a double OD won't help unless you have a deep enough final drive ratio.
    1985 Blazer 6.2
    2001 GMC 2500HD D/A
    dmaxmaverick@thedieselpage.com

  8. #8
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    They closed that shop just before I retired end of November 2013. Left San Jose June 28 2014 just before 183 days into the year so we wouldn't owe taxes for the entire year. Registered in Nevada dr. license, vehicles, and to vote to be sure CA couldn't claim us. Stayed in Nevada a couple months then wandered across to Tennessee and bought a house. After years in a 36ft fifth wheel it sure feels good. And a lot better prices here than CA. Oh and we have water here too.

    When I bought my fiver it was in Los Banos. Picked it up at the Automate factory after they tuned it up for us. I had a 94 K2500 with 5 speed then. It was a chore but pulled Pacheco in 3rd gear. Paced with two semis, got passed by two, and passed two going up the hill.

    What a difference it is with my K3500 Duramax and Allison though. Duramax is much more of a work horse. Still have to watch boost and pyro gages and ease up when the temps go up. On the open interstate I can usually find a semi running about my pace and fall in behind and draft a little. Just watch boost gage drop and you know when you have caught the sweet spot.

    From Nevada we stopped in southern Utah to visit Zion and North Rim. Then down to Flagstaff. There are some long steep grades that way. Longer than 395 out of Bishop. But again, watch the gages and remember I'm retired and don't have to be in a hurry.

    Back to your rig. Can you add an auxiliary radiator and fan any where under it? Or an extra oil cooler some where? I'm sure its still a work in progress so time will heal every thing.

    Good luck with it and keep us posted.
    "The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people, it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government."
    -Patrick Henry


    A5150nut
    2006 K3500 D/A
    94 6.5 4x4 5spd Sold

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by a5150nut View Post
    Can you add an auxiliary radiator and fan any where under it? Or an extra oil cooler some where? I'm sure its still a work in progress so time will heal every thing.

    Good luck with it and keep us posted.
    The first change will be a different fan. Once I see what that does, then we will go from there.
    Stephen H.
    BigRabbitMan
    1976 FMC Motor Coach #1046
    Formerly 440, now LBZ
    Rear engined w/4 wheel independent suspension.
    Tow car: 1987 Subaru Brat 4x4
    http://www.fmcowners.com/mbbs22/phot...asp?albumid=77

  10. #10
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    Thanks for all your efforts and information. We're looking to add an affordable way to rv with 4 children. The FMC (possibly GMC) is our choice with an efficient power plant. We may follow your example.

    How's your conversion working out -- no updates in the last few months.

    Also, are there any 20-20 hindsights that would benefit a similar conversion?

    Kevin H
    still in planning & prep stages

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by FamilyTimeRV View Post
    Thanks for all your efforts and information. We're looking to add an affordable way to rv with 4 children. The FMC (possibly GMC) is our choice with an efficient power plant. We may follow your example.

    How's your conversion working out -- no updates in the last few months.

    Also, are there any 20-20 hindsights that would benefit a similar conversion?

    Kevin H
    still in planning & prep stages
    Hi Kevin, sorry for the delay in responding. Had things happening that kept me away. I am glad to assist you in your information gathering. The first thing to understand if you are looking at any older motor home, you need to be at a minimum a mechanic to some level as there will be things that need attention/repair/upgrading and it would be cost prohibitive to have that stuff done by a regular shop in most cases. Since you are on this site, I expect that you are covered in that respect.

    As to things that I would have done differently, the only one of significance is that I need a larger fan. Another person is in the process of doing the same conversion to his FMC that I did and has secured a better fan. I expect that at some point I will be getting that same fan, but in the meantime I just have drive conservatively going up grades. You can visit both my complete photo album and his (still in progress) on the FMC Owners Club website. The link is: [URL="http://www.fmcowners.com"] . His coach number is 1027 and mine is 1046. He is up to 227 photos in his album and I have 371 in my album. There is also a discussion of both projects in the forum area in the Mechanics section. Feel free to register on that site so that you can post questions in the forum area. He is doing somethings differently than I did but no two people do something like this the same. Not better or worse, just different. He will be doing some suspension things as well as the engine change in his case.

    Two major things that I like about the FMC is the low profile and the quietness with the engine in the rear. The GMC also has the low profile, but you do have the engine up front on that one with the attendant engine noise. If you want to convert one to diesel, I think it would be much more of a challenge with a GMC. I am not aware of a compatible engine/tranny for the GMC. There may be one, but I am not aware of one. When you say "efficient engine", I don't know how you define efficiency but if it is more than 8 or so mpg, diesel is the only way you will get there.

    There are FMC's that have already been converted to diesel that come up for sale from time to time, but you need to ensure that the conversion process was done properly. That is particularly true of the heavier diesels like the Detroit 8.2 or the Cummins 5.9. Length with the Cummins also causes some issues that have to be addressed.

    Traveling with four children raises some questions in my mind. The first is the ages of the children as that will be a factor in how much "space" each one needs. The "A" or dinette model with the optional bunk beds is set up to be able to sleep six people. As they get larger, some have had the teenage children sleep in a tent adjacent to the coach when camping for more than one night.

    I haven't had any updates to my thread here as I haven't done anything additional to the coach. In Feb I did travel about 800 miles south to Buellton, CA for a coach rally and back - just had to take it easy going up six percent grades! On the way back I did get 13.6 mpg measured which is very good for a motor home. It is sweet to drive and very quiet with the rear engine and the sound proofing that I did to the firewall. I can hear that it is running, but that is about all.

    I am in Oregon, in what state are you located?
    Stephen H.
    BigRabbitMan
    1976 FMC Motor Coach #1046
    Formerly 440, now LBZ
    Rear engined w/4 wheel independent suspension.
    Tow car: 1987 Subaru Brat 4x4
    http://www.fmcowners.com/mbbs22/phot...asp?albumid=77

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by FamilyTimeRV View Post
    Thanks for all your efforts and information. We're looking to add an affordable way to rv with 4 children. The FMC (possibly GMC) is our choice with an efficient power plant. We may follow your example.

    Kevin H
    still in planning & prep stages
    Kevin:

    Just a few thoughts. I am going through the same thought process as you are. Mind you, I don't have to factor in 4 kids.

    Currently I am leaning towards the GMC. The original design was not only brilliant but it has survived the test of time with a large and active owners community. Having said that, for your purposes, shoehorning yourself, significant other and four kids into a GMC would be tough with any of the available floorplans.

    Additionally, the front drive system comes out of the Olds Toronado/Cadillac Eldorado of the same vintage. Without major surgery, that means you are stuck with the THM 425 transmission (basically a 400 with the torque convertor and front pump attached to the engine with a chaindrive to the rest of the tranny turned around and going forward. Still a great transmission, especially if you can find a "switch pitch" trans from a 67 or 68 car. Essentially gives you a 6 speed tranny.

    The bell housing is a "BOP" bolt pattern so if you use any other engine you would have to get an adapter plate, modify the engine oil pan to accommodate the right hand drive axle and fabricate a front mounted engine mount. There are a number of 6.5 turbo conversions out there as well as a couple of Duramax conversions.

    If you are still interested in the GMC, I would suggest you look into the GMC Co-op in Orlando Florida. Jim Bounds is the by far the most knowledgeable person in the community.

    http://www.firefightmarine.com/gmccoop/

    This thread has me looking at the FMC as an alternative. Love the concept of the independent rear suspension and pusher engine layout. This plus the added room for the family would make sense for your uses and open up your options for engine trans combinations. Unfortunately they are not only the same vintage as the GMC but there were far fewer manufactured. I would question the availability of parts, specific to this platform.

    I have also started looking at the Airstream Motorhomes. Lots of them out there with a 40 year production run including some pusher versions later on. Even today, they are still manufacturing a motorhome based on the Mercedes Sprinter platform. Still trying to get some information on the various versions and separating the good from the bad.

    From a cost point of view, I would seriously analyse how you are going to use this motorhome and specifically, how much you are going to use it. Upgrading any of the powerplants in these vehicles to a newer engine is far easier and cheaper with a gas conversion than the diesel. In other words, you are going to have to pack on lots of miles to justify a diesel conversion from a cost point of view.

    The new "LS" series GM gas engines are plentiful, with an extensive aftermarket support system in place. Properly configured, they can be programmed for very acceptable fuel consumption and with reasonably inexpensive "go fast" parts can lay down some very respectable power. Based upon my research into the GMC, I could do an LS conversion for about $5,000 less than any decent diesel conversion, plus, it can be fixed on the road by any reasonably equipped garage. Even Bubba in lower Buttkiss is probably conversant with this engine family.

    Myself, I am leaning towards a GMC with either an AMG 6.5 or LS engine and a switch pitch transmission, upgraded suspension and brakes and a total re-working of the body. I expect the cost to be in the 30 grand area, including the initial purchase. Not much more than a reasonable tow behind trailer.

    Hope this helps.

    Bill
    91 Buick Roadmaster/Avant 6.2 NA conversion (gone but not forgotten)
    94 Cadillac Fleetwood (sold)
    08 Aerolight 23TT
    06 Vortec Max Silverado CC SB (sold)
    10 Avalanche (electronic quagmire but love the truck)

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by convert2diesel View Post
    I expect the cost to be in the 30 grand area, including the initial purchase. Not much more than a reasonable tow behind trailer. Hope this helps.

    Bill
    Bill has done an excellent evaluation. His cost estimate is very good for a conversion done properly. In my case, I spent more than needed in some areas and already owned the coach and I ended up with a total cost of about $27,000 for the Duramax conversion. The other person that is currently converting an FMC to a Duramax expects his cost to be the $30,000 number including the purchase price of his coach. I expect that number will be very close to what his actual turns out to be.

    In the case of the FMC, a conversion/upgrade to modern gas engine/tranny setup would be much cheaper and that is what I would recommend for most people as most motor homes will not get the mileage on them to begin to justify the cost of the diesel conversion. With the FMC, a gas conversion is fairly straightforward with few complications. Mainly engine/tranny mounts and gauges. But again, it takes many miles to justify a conversion verses, in the FMC case, just doing a rework of the existing 440 with possibly upgrading to a fuel injection system. With the 440, I pulled 6% grades at 45 mph passing many other motor homes!

    As to parts availability, with both the FMC and GMC there are support groups out there and sources of parts have been identified for most things. As an example, I have just ordered all of the steering linkage parts for my coach as with 160,000 miles it is time for work on that end. They are all off the self items still today as they were/are used on many other vehicles.

    Rollin', rollin', rollin',

    Stephen H. , FMC #1046
    Stephen H.
    BigRabbitMan
    1976 FMC Motor Coach #1046
    Formerly 440, now LBZ
    Rear engined w/4 wheel independent suspension.
    Tow car: 1987 Subaru Brat 4x4
    http://www.fmcowners.com/mbbs22/phot...asp?albumid=77

  14. #14
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    Very nice! Are you monitoring your intake air temps? I was wondering how that water/air intercooler was working.
    1987 Jeep Grand Wagoneer...new 6.5 in process...diamond block, 18:1's, other goodies...


  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeepSJ View Post
    Very nice! Are you monitoring your intake air temps? I was wondering how that water/air intercooler was working.
    That question raises one of the little glitches with my system. I installed the Banks system with their IQ monitor/controller with lots of readouts. The problem I have is that it doesn't work with the long extension cord that I have to use to reach the front (30') so that I can monitor things while on the road. It works fine while only using the short cord that comes with the unit but since my engine is in the rear, I can't use it while driving. I will be contacting Banks to see how this can be resolved. In the meantime, I know the water is warm/hot when stopping so it is taking heat out of the air stream but I don't know the actual air temp while under load.

    I do have a second issue as the turbo vane position sensor is not functioning with the new sensor. The result is that I am always at full boost so have driven very conservatively. I will be starting a new thread about that issue at some point.
    Stephen H.
    BigRabbitMan
    1976 FMC Motor Coach #1046
    Formerly 440, now LBZ
    Rear engined w/4 wheel independent suspension.
    Tow car: 1987 Subaru Brat 4x4
    http://www.fmcowners.com/mbbs22/phot...asp?albumid=77

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigRabbitMan View Post
    That question raises one of the little glitches with my system. I installed the Banks system with their IQ monitor/controller with lots of readouts. The problem I have is that it doesn't work with the long extension cord that I have to use to reach the front (30') so that I can monitor things while on the road. It works fine while only using the short cord that comes with the unit but since my engine is in the rear, I can't use it while driving. I will be contacting Banks to see how this can be resolved. In the meantime, I know the water is warm/hot when stopping so it is taking heat out of the air stream but I don't know the actual air temp while under load.

    I do have a second issue as the turbo vane position sensor is not functioning with the new sensor. The result is that I am always at full boost so have driven very conservatively. I will be starting a new thread about that issue at some point.
    Stephen:

    I concur with your decision to contact Banks. Your sensors are either resistance or hall effect, both would be adversely effected by length of harness. Same goes for the EGT. There might be a way to calibrate the unit to compensate for the length of wire but only Banks could tell you how. I do know that EGT leads can be purchased with different length/resistance specs.

    Good luck

    Bill
    91 Buick Roadmaster/Avant 6.2 NA conversion (gone but not forgotten)
    94 Cadillac Fleetwood (sold)
    08 Aerolight 23TT
    06 Vortec Max Silverado CC SB (sold)
    10 Avalanche (electronic quagmire but love the truck)

  17. #17
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    Default FWD GMC Diesel swap

    Not to hyjack a thread but I have a 1977 GMC that I've installed a 2000 H1 6.5TD with 4l80e trans. I used a B/W transfer case from a Revcon MH and went forward to a 2012 9.25" AAM front diff out of a one ton Chevy. We've put about 3000 miles on it since September and have very few nit's to pick so far.
    Not a swap for the faint of heart for sure, but a nice match.
    Hal

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