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Thread: NV4500 Tranny Trouble

  1. #41
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    Default Pictures

    Okay, here they are
    Attached Images Attached Images
    1993 HD2500- 4X4, Nv4500, rc/lb, Lots of mods, killed her. Awaiting her TT rebuild!

    2002 Camaro L36/M49- Killed In Action

    1995 HD2500 - 4X4, NV4500 rc/lb, GL4, Turbo, exhaust

    1994 HD2500- 4X4, NV4500, ec/lb

  2. #42
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    Default

    Had to read through the whole thread to see that you pulled the transmission, but not the bellhousing - I was wondering how you didn't see the clutch pack damage the last (recent) time you were in there.

    What brand of clutch was that? The pictures are awfully small, but that looks "lightweight" compared to the South Bend clutch I bought...

    Like you, this got shoved to the back burner as I had to take care of other issues. But I'm headed home today to pull the bellhousing and rest of the parts and then I can start reinstalling things.
    '94 GMC 6.5TD K1500 4L80E 2-Door Yukon SLE 221K
    '93 Chevrolet 6.5TD K2500HD NV4500 Std. Cab Longbed 187K
    '85 Toyota 22R RN60 4x4 Std. Cab Shortbed 178K (Currently retired for rebuild)
    Diesel Page Member #2423

  3. #43
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    Red face Dampener

    Sorry I have not been around -- been in and out of Hosp for two weeks now doing a million tests to try and save my leg. Looks like they got it figured out now -- I hope.


    Most of the successfull change overs from DMF to SMF have been installing the dampner. On rare occassions (once that I know of) the clutch still came apart even with the dampner. I didn't install the clutch so don't know if it was installed correctly. NOTE: make dam sure you torque the pressure plate in an X pattern and in at least two stages. I have seen too many pressure plates that are loose on one side -- obvious indicator is that the pressure plate is blue on one side only.
    I get approx. 65 to 70 thousand miles out of a clutch @ DMF.

    Thanks for the tip on the Kevlar bushing I will order a couple and change it out with the new motor as soon as I am able to work on it.

    Al
    Original D.P. Member #750, 2009 Ext Cab LB 4x4 Duramax/Allison, Black, Linex, 1993 6.5 TD 4x4 reg cab LB, 5 speed, 1972 Pontiac Lemans, 94 cady De Ville

  4. #44
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    Default Clutch

    I'll check it out and find out what brand it is. It does seem rather small though eh? This is only and 11" clutch disc. I seem to remember something about the Dodge NV4500 running something like a 13" disc?
    1993 HD2500- 4X4, Nv4500, rc/lb, Lots of mods, killed her. Awaiting her TT rebuild!

    2002 Camaro L36/M49- Killed In Action

    1995 HD2500 - 4X4, NV4500 rc/lb, GL4, Turbo, exhaust

    1994 HD2500- 4X4, NV4500, ec/lb

  5. #45
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    Default

    Al,

    So you feel that the lack of the dampner on a SMF conversion will lead to damage? Crap... Another $500 out of pocket... Seems like the dampner is dealer only...

    6.5DD, I'll get some pictures up of the clutch assembly that I picked up from South Bend.
    '94 GMC 6.5TD K1500 4L80E 2-Door Yukon SLE 221K
    '93 Chevrolet 6.5TD K2500HD NV4500 Std. Cab Longbed 187K
    '85 Toyota 22R RN60 4x4 Std. Cab Shortbed 178K (Currently retired for rebuild)
    Diesel Page Member #2423

  6. #46
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    Default

    All 3 of my trucks with factory NV4500s came with 12" clutches, 2 are 6.5s and one has a factory 5.7L.
    Not sure why you would have an 11" disc.

    Edit after Turbo Al's post below: Both my 6.5s have single mass flywheels, not sure it matters, just stating for reference.
    Last edited by vr1967; 05-22-2008 at 19:14.

  7. #47
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    Default dampner

    I honestly don't know why the dampner is needed you would think the 16 springs on the assembly would make up for it but, yes if it was me I would go with the dampner. I have never had a solid flywheel -- two DMF -- so I have no direct exp working on a SMF but info from other DP members and a local trans shop tell me it is needed. I will never change mine over to SMF because I have had no problems at all with them in 200,000 miles. I personally think the SMF system is flawed with the clutch being the weak link.

    The diameter of a DM clutch is also 12 inches and they have no springs in them, so I am not sure what application the 11 inch one is for.

    Al
    Original D.P. Member #750, 2009 Ext Cab LB 4x4 Duramax/Allison, Black, Linex, 1993 6.5 TD 4x4 reg cab LB, 5 speed, 1972 Pontiac Lemans, 94 cady De Ville

  8. #48
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    Default Smf/dmf

    This is kind of funny. I would like to know for next time, which is better? The reason I went with the SMF was that I was told that it was the stronger more durable one. But obviously there is some strong feeling otherwise. Whaddya say?
    1993 HD2500- 4X4, Nv4500, rc/lb, Lots of mods, killed her. Awaiting her TT rebuild!

    2002 Camaro L36/M49- Killed In Action

    1995 HD2500 - 4X4, NV4500 rc/lb, GL4, Turbo, exhaust

    1994 HD2500- 4X4, NV4500, ec/lb

  9. #49
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    Post clutch

    Well it really depends on HOW you look at it. The DMF has six huge spings and big rubber snubbers and two piece flywheel to look after the vibrations, the DMF clutch has no springs on it what so ever. Also no dampner in the trans assembly.

    The SMF has a clutch that has something like 12 or 16 (you would know) spings in it and like I said I think it is the weak link & depending on line of thought and a damper in trans assembly.

    I have not had any trouble with the DMF at all (I have two one GM and one aftermarket) I rotate them every time I change the clutch (machine the surface on the one that is out)
    I do go through a few more clutches than most because I do a lot of 4x4 ing some pretty long tows and have 3:43 gears which adds a bit more load on the clutch when I start it moving in 2nd gear -- never use first because it is extreamely low geared (1993) I get about 65 to 70 thou per clutch.
    I have never had a SMF and don't intend to change over.

    I do most of my own work and for a fact changing out the clutch is NOT a real easy job (trans weighs 200 lbs dry) but I have a system now that makes it as easy as possible.

    I think if you add up all the parts the two different systems both come out to about the same price.

    Al
    Original D.P. Member #750, 2009 Ext Cab LB 4x4 Duramax/Allison, Black, Linex, 1993 6.5 TD 4x4 reg cab LB, 5 speed, 1972 Pontiac Lemans, 94 cady De Ville

  10. #50
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    Default

    The last clutch I replaced on my 6.5 only had the normal 5-6 springs like the older GM clutches. I have used it for 15-20K so far with no trouble, alot of the time with my D5 cat behind it.
    I picked it up at the local parts store and could give you the PN tomorrow or Sunday (I am out of town at the moment)
    Not sure it is the proper one for the application, but I am friends with the owner, and he knew what it was going in and what it would be doing.

  11. #51
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    Default

    I came into this a little late but the pivot ball wear issue got me a few years ago as well. I was (and still am) carrying a spare master and slave cyl under the seat just in case. They are "self bleeding"....that is after you slowly pump the pedal about a hundred times! After 200k and two clutches I still have a DMF, but it does rattle a little when I am backing up a heavy trailer. I just tap the throttle and it quiets down. It will bite me one of these days. JEFF
    93 Crew Cab Dually,6.5 5speed, 4:10 rear,235/85's,Turbo-master, Boost & Pyro, 3inch open exhaust from the turbo on out, pump mods to come.
    38ft Featherlite trailer to haul the car

  12. #52
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    Thumbs up clutch

    vr1967 that setup actually makes a LOT more sense to me than the recomended setup. Do you notice any more vibrations that the original setup?

    Jeffscarstrucks, the only time my engine trans rattles is when the fuel filter is getting plugged up but I don't back up heavy trailers too often. Thanks for the "self bleeding" tip I will remember that next time I am alone.

    Al
    Original D.P. Member #750, 2009 Ext Cab LB 4x4 Duramax/Allison, Black, Linex, 1993 6.5 TD 4x4 reg cab LB, 5 speed, 1972 Pontiac Lemans, 94 cady De Ville

  13. #53
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    Default

    The SMF setup I have definitely isn't 11"...

    The clutch plate is 12" and has ten springs in it. The flywheel is 14". Here is the picture of what I have.

    Like 6.5DD, I went to the SMF because it seemed that everyone was saying that it was an improvement over the DMF. Also, everything I've ever worked on has the springs in the clutch - Ford Mustang, Toyota truck, Saab 900, Peterbilt - so the DMF with the springs was a bit funky to me when I first saw it...

    Also, the Dodge uses a SMF in front of the NV4500...

    I guess YMMV, but it just seemed like the logical course of action to get rid of the DMF...
    Attached Images Attached Images
    '94 GMC 6.5TD K1500 4L80E 2-Door Yukon SLE 221K
    '93 Chevrolet 6.5TD K2500HD NV4500 Std. Cab Longbed 187K
    '85 Toyota 22R RN60 4x4 Std. Cab Shortbed 178K (Currently retired for rebuild)
    Diesel Page Member #2423

  14. #54
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    Default Clutch

    I am pretty sure that the brand I installed was DynaPak. I could be wrong, it probably is a 12".
    What did you pay for the clutch pack? Including the flywheel?
    I am hoping that I just got a defective clutch plate.
    Now I know that I am not alone. I will be getting a basically new clutch setup in a week so it will be back together soon!
    1993 HD2500- 4X4, Nv4500, rc/lb, Lots of mods, killed her. Awaiting her TT rebuild!

    2002 Camaro L36/M49- Killed In Action

    1995 HD2500 - 4X4, NV4500 rc/lb, GL4, Turbo, exhaust

    1994 HD2500- 4X4, NV4500, ec/lb

  15. #55
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    Default

    From South Bend Clutch MU1931TZ - which includes the flywheel, pressure plate, heavy duty kevlar clutch, kevlar pilot bushing, TO bearing, and alignment tool.

    Total was $692.58 shipped to my door.
    '94 GMC 6.5TD K1500 4L80E 2-Door Yukon SLE 221K
    '93 Chevrolet 6.5TD K2500HD NV4500 Std. Cab Longbed 187K
    '85 Toyota 22R RN60 4x4 Std. Cab Shortbed 178K (Currently retired for rebuild)
    Diesel Page Member #2423

  16. #56
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    Default MityVac?

    Quote Originally Posted by jeffscarstrucks View Post
    They are "self bleeding"....that is after you slowly pump the pedal about a hundred times!
    What about using a MityVac for the bleeding? At least on the older style NV4500's with the external slave, I'd think this would work out real nice. Not sure about the newer version with internal slave...


    Andy
    1994 K1500 Blazer: 6.5L TD/4L80E: 'F' intake: Kennedy chip: Kennedy 3.5" exhaust: Heath Turbo-Master: 2/0 battery cables: Lubrication Specialist oil cooler lines: Fumoto drain valve: Amsoil dual bypass remote oil filter kit: Fluidampr: 137k miles

  17. #57
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    Default

    I've never had much luck with the MityVac... I've been using a Motive Products Power Bleeder but didn't have the adapter I needed to use it on the clutch master.

    I ended up jacking up the front of the truck so that the bleed valve was elevated and then did the two-person bleed with my girlfriend. That worked very quickly.
    '94 GMC 6.5TD K1500 4L80E 2-Door Yukon SLE 221K
    '93 Chevrolet 6.5TD K2500HD NV4500 Std. Cab Longbed 187K
    '85 Toyota 22R RN60 4x4 Std. Cab Shortbed 178K (Currently retired for rebuild)
    Diesel Page Member #2423

  18. #58
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    Default

    I also use the Mity-vac for brakes but the self bleed method was actually right from the GM shop. On the rattle, I always figured that it was the inner section of the flywheel somehow rattling between the springs. It has done it for some time now and the last time I had it apart there was no odd wear so back in it went. I always figured that it had to do with the reverse gear ratio and a higher load being applied to the clutch itself as compared to starting out in low. Jeff
    P.S. It is nice to come back to this forum where people actually think and converse about machines in a positive and knowledgable manner. I am working on a little 742 skid steer that I bought the other day and the first tool I used on it was a plasma cutter. Some people should not be allowed to use a metal butter kife, let alone tools....Thanks again, JEFF
    93 Crew Cab Dually,6.5 5speed, 4:10 rear,235/85's,Turbo-master, Boost & Pyro, 3inch open exhaust from the turbo on out, pump mods to come.
    38ft Featherlite trailer to haul the car

  19. #59
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    Default

    Hmmm... Do you think that the pivot ball may have been the issue?



    Old one is on the left (if that wasn't obvious) and you can see the cracked seat in the fork behind the old and new one.

    Curiously, as 6.5DD had mentioned with his situation, there is no sign of the seat and spring shown in the manual that are supposed to be on the threaded end of the pivot ball - and the pivot ball I got from the dealer did not come with them so I have to make another trip back there...

    Finally, here is a picture of the zerk just below where the pivot ball screws into the bellhousing. I have to admit that I looked for it and did not see it before I had disassembled everything. Obviously the previous owner did not know about it either... In the photo above, you can see the hole towards the bottom of the pivot ball where the grease travels inside of the pivot ball to lubricate the ball at the fork. I'd assume that you would not want to pump gobs of grease into this and have it end up on the clutch itself...

    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by trbankii; 05-27-2008 at 12:14.
    '94 GMC 6.5TD K1500 4L80E 2-Door Yukon SLE 221K
    '93 Chevrolet 6.5TD K2500HD NV4500 Std. Cab Longbed 187K
    '85 Toyota 22R RN60 4x4 Std. Cab Shortbed 178K (Currently retired for rebuild)
    Diesel Page Member #2423

  20. #60
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    Wink Maybe the pivot ball

    I have to say they stop working long before the get that bad so you must have a left leg as strong as an elephants!!

    I honestly can't remember a spring in there BUT there are two different setup one for light duty and one for Heavy duty --- they don"t interchange.

    Great Pictures

    Al
    Original D.P. Member #750, 2009 Ext Cab LB 4x4 Duramax/Allison, Black, Linex, 1993 6.5 TD 4x4 reg cab LB, 5 speed, 1972 Pontiac Lemans, 94 cady De Ville

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