After market heads

[Robyn]

I have been a proponent of the after market cylinder heads as I have used a set on my own rig and have been involved with the use of a few other sets.

All have been fine.
There has now come to light some sad news that there may be some issues with these heads. One the folks here got ahold of a set of castings that seem to be trash and the company does not want to take care of the issue.

What I would like is to hear from anyone who has had anything to do with the heads from clearwater for the 6.5.

Please feel free to tell us about any and all experiences good or bad.
When purchased, how many miles of use ect.

If there seems to be a pattern of poor quaility emerging and or crappy service then I personally want to know it.
My experience with Clearwater was a good one as has been several I know of, buttttttttt things can and do change for many reasons.

Let us know

Robyn

[john8662]

Looks are one thing too, as we've recently found out. You basically have to take down a sample to examine it and see what you really have, carefully. I'm not convinced that the quality was ever there, just that they hadn't been caught for it much. Alright, I'll quiet down now, cuz I ain't bought no Clearwater Heads. Did have some ACH in my hands at one point, does that count?

And Hey! Your post count is catching me, I was getting all happy about 3k 'n stuff...

[Robyn]

John
Any and all pertinent information and discussion is certainly important here.

I have had good luck as have many others. My heads came with a 2 year warranty.
I have emailed clearwater and inquired as to the cost for and the warranty for Bare heads.
I can see that maybe they would be reluctant to warrant a casting that they have no control on the final assembly of.

I am waiting to see what they say. If I dont hear from them in a bit I am going to call them on the phone.

I have recommended their 6.5 heads to a lot of people and I am feeling a little uneasy now about continuing this practice.

The pictures that were posted in the other thread show some fairly shabby looking things that I did not see in my heads.
I pulled many of the valves out of my set and looked things over well visually as well as doing some checks for valve seating with "Blue" ect.

If the stuff is going to turn sour and the company get flakey I am not going to PIMP their stuff any more.

Not to worry, I am serious about getting the skinny on this stuff.

One of our members that lives close by bought a set of these heads and was raving about the quaility??????????

I will be in contact with him ASAP and see if I can look his set over if he has not installed them yet.

I want to hear every success story as well as every nightmare.
I thought I did my homework fairly well before buying these as all the reports I could get from various sources were good ones and the sources were from all over the country.
Nobody had anything negative to say AT ALL.


We shall see.

Robyn

[Robyn]

Its 8:20 PST, I just got off the phone with the folks at Clearwater cylinder head.

The 6.5 head castings are available as bare machined units.
I asked for all the details about the heads.
I talked with Steve for about 10 minutes.

He was up front and very open about all aspects of their warranty and pricing.
The bare heads come with ZERO warranty due to the lack of control as to how they will be assembled.
Steve also told me that they dont really encourage folks to buy the bare heads as they will not warranty them.

I did not fish for this info, I simply asked for any and all details of their sales and warranty policy.
I represented myself by my own name under my own company.

The complete heads come with a 3 year unlimited mileage warranty.

I asked him what the instance of issues has been, his reply was that they had seen a recent batch that had a few heads that the injectors were tough or impossible to get threaded in.

The issue was rectified and the problem solved I am told.
The manner of conversation was polite and very helpful.

I certainly cant see anything wrong with a 3 year no mileage limit warranty.

That is better than most warranties on parts that you buy out there.
This is a workmanship and materials warranty.

This is the latest info I have gathered.

Best
Robyn

[WhiteTruck]

This was a friend of mines' experience with CCH this fall. He is a retired tool and die maker by trade, and has had a fair amount of experience rebuilding engines. He did all his own machining before retiring.

(Letter edited for length and personal details.)


New CCH head purchased. (complete) It has under 3000 miles since it was installed. The car is a 1994 Plymouth Sundance, 2.2 non-turbo.

Problem: Number three exhaust valve will not seat properly and the guide is quite sloppy. The valve seat appears to be egg shaped. The other exhaust valves are pitted and also have worn guides. CCH requested head returnd for inspection.

For what it’s worth; I don’t think the oil jet holes in the cam bearing caps are large enough to adequately lubricate the valves. The valve stems and guides are dry and not getting proper lubrication. As you will be able to see there is no wear on the cam or head bearing surfaces so it is getting sufficient oil this far. There are no flats on the cam bearing journals either. I am sending photo copies from the Chrysler manual to help clarify. The original head leaked coolant but the valves and seats were in excellent condition.

I understand problems happen but I’m a little upset, I’m out return shipping, several hours of labor and a set of Fel-Pro gaskets. I appreciate your help with this head and look forward to hearing from you as soon as possible.

The new head came today and I'm not impressed. It's not the same one I sent back. Again no flats on the cam (could be the one I sent back). There's flashing in the water passage where the thermostat sits. Enough that I'm sure it would restrict water flow. The head I sent back said Mexico on it, this one says nothing. Not sure if that's good or bad. I don't think the oil jet holes in the caps are big enough either.

I thought they might send some gaskets but they didn't. I'm not surprised but I was hoping. If this head turns out bad, I don't think there will be a third from CCH. I believe I'd try someone else.

[Robyn]

Now I am assuming this little chrysler head was a rebuilt??

The thrust of this post is to glean information on the 6.5 heads that CCH is selling.
The example here is good information but the casting is probably one that was originally built by Mopar.

The issue I am trying to get info on is what sorts of experiences folks have had with the CCH 6.5 (new Heads)

Thanks
Robyn

[More Power]

I take a little different approach to recommending products than some. I've been at the receiving end of high repair bills and many hours of wrenching in the garage trying to solve diesel problems without mortgaging the farm. In my own work, I wanted the best information and best possible chance of a longterm effective repair. I don't want to do the same job twice, and I'm willing to spend a little more to get a better result. As a result, my recommendations are based on that principle.

So, the best advice is to suggest to people that they buy genuine castings and engine parts authorized and produced by the OEM's. There's just too much risk in suggesting untried and unproven engine parts - from untried and unproven manufacturers. I applaud others here who have taken the time to examine these Chinese castings in detail. What isn't known at this point in time is what alloys were used in the various components. We know Navistar was tasked with solving the cracking problem AMG inherited from GM. I haven't heard from a single individual who has the 2001+ castings and has reported a crack or has reported a manufacturing defect.

The best advice is to stay with OEM parts. JMHO

Jim

[john8662]

The main point I'd like to make in regard to the after market heads is that they look great, until you put them under the magnifying glass and get down and examine them closely.

Of course any NEW head is going to look a lot better than the used cylinder heads removed from a 6.5.

It's not completely obvious at first that the pre-cups were machined, until looking at them. But they are all done this way, which is even a no-no on reman heads (although a very common practice).

The different material used with the pre-cups is troublesome, which was explained in the picture post about the heads. This is a very important detail, and it was proved, I wouldn't have thought to check that. The depth issue, that's very important as well.

I was considering purchasing a set of Diamond cups bare after market due to price, now I see what the true deal is on them is, not the right stuff. I'll be getting a set from GM, whatever it costs. Not worth the risk for the custom heads I'm building.

J

[WhiteTruck]

As I stated in my post, the Chrysler head was sold as NEW and complete. I did not indicate whether or not it was an OE or not, but to clarify, he was not sure if it was a Mopar casting. I realize the point of this post is to gain information regarding the 6.5 heads. However, I find it interesting that the 6.5 heads are not the only ones with issues.

[Robyn]

My opinion is this.
If its being handled in the aftermarket regardless of if its new or a reman, there will sooner or later be problems with it.

The quality control is just a sorry mess with all but a few outfits.
My hat goes off to those who try hard to do it right.
A big thank you there too.

Robyn

[RobK]

The main point I'd like to make in regard to the after market heads is that they look great, until you put them under the magnifying glass and get down and examine them closely.

Of course any NEW head is going to look a lot better than the used cylinder heads removed from a 6.5.

It's not completely obvious at first that the pre-cups were machined, until looking at them. But they are all done this way, which is even a no-no on reman heads (although a very common practice).

The different material used with the pre-cups is troublesome, which was explained in the picture post about the heads. This is a very important detail, and it was proved, I wouldn't have thought to check that. The depth issue, that's very important as well.

I was considering purchasing a set of Diamond cups bare after market due to price, now I see what the true deal is on them is, not the right stuff. I'll be getting a set from GM, whatever it costs. Not worth the risk for the custom heads I'm building.

J

I just have a couple questions (call me the devil's advocate)...they LOOK inferior and yes the precups ARE a different alloy, but have there been lots of failures? Granted when you went to change the precups you uncovered a machining issue, but would anyone remove the precups before installing the heads normally? If you go looking for trouble you'll always find it. I personally wouldn't go with aftermarket heads. I actually don't use ANY aftermarket parts as they rarely hold up to OEM standards.

[MaxPF]

I take a little different approach to recommending products than some. I've been at the receiving end of high repair bills and many hours of wrenching in the garage trying to solve diesel problems without mortgaging the farm. In my own work, I wanted the best information and best possible chance of a longterm effective repair. I don't want to do the same job twice, and I'm willing to spend a little more to get a better result. As a result, my recommendations are based on that principle.

So, the best advice is to suggest to people that they buy genuine castings and engine parts authorized and produced by the OEM's. There's just too much risk in suggesting untried and unproven engine parts - from untried and unproven manufacturers. I applaud others here who have taken the time to examine these Chinese castings in detail. What isn't known at this point in time is what alloys were used in the various components. We know Navistar was tasked with solving the cracking problem AMG inherited from GM. I haven't heard from a single individual who has the 2001+ castings and has reported a crack or has reported a manufacturing defect.

The best advice is to stay with OEM parts. JMHO

Jim

Actually, the GM heads aren't as bad as people make them out to be. Cracking is a very common problem on cast iron heads with induction hardened exhaust seats. The hardening process leaves residual stress in the metal, and when combined with high temperatures and being constantly hammered on by the valve a crack can form. On 6.5 heads the crack usually starts on the seat adjacent to the bridge between valves, which is where the seat runs hottest. 6.5 heads aren't alone - it is common to find cracks in gasser heads as well.

During development of the 6.9, International tried using induction hardened exhaust seats. They experienced the same cracking problem that 6.2/6.5 heads experience. They ended up going to seat inserts on the production engines (which were called out in the original design - the induction hardened exhaust seats were tried to cut costs). Obviously induction hardened exhaust seats can be made to work - most that crack aren't noticed until rebuild time. Metallurgy and even cooling around the seat can minimize the possibility of cracks - this seems to be what AMG has done to solve the problem. Cummins used induction hardened seats in the B seriesand others, and they occasionally crack as well.

The best defense are exhaust inserts. However, the cost of the insert and the machining adds quite a bit to the manufacturing cost, so they aren't normally used unless they are really needed...

[MaxPF]

The main point I'd like to make in regard to the after market heads is that they look great, until you put them under the magnifying glass and get down and examine them closely.

Of course any NEW head is going to look a lot better than the used cylinder heads removed from a 6.5.

The casting quality of these heads is noticeably inferior to the GM castings.

If you want to see a really nice casting go to the EngineQuest heads site and check out their CH318A head for the Chrysler 318/360. It is made in Australia, and having seen one in person I can tell you it is one of the nicest cast iron head castings I have seen. The machining is excellent as well, and they even come with hardened exhaust seat inserts. I wish they made a 6.5 head...

EDIT: that company makes a Vortec-style head for the SBC as well. Nice stuff - check it out: http://www.eqcylinderheads.com/performance.html

[MaxPF]

I just have a couple questions (call me the devil's advocate)...they LOOK inferior and yes the precups ARE a different alloy, but have there been lots of failures? Granted when you went to change the precups you uncovered a machining issue, but would anyone remove the precups before installing the heads normally? If you go looking for trouble you'll always find it. I personally wouldn't go with aftermarket heads. I actually don't use ANY aftermarket parts as they rarely hold up to OEM standards.

I haven't heard of any failures, but they may not fail catastrophically. If the throat simply eroded many drivers probably wouldn't notice the loss of performance or economy. Furthermore, if they do fail, how long will it take? These heads haven't been out there long enough to rack up a lot of combined hours. Finally, just because you haven't heard of any issues doesn't mean they don't exist. Nobody heard of any quality issues with them until I popped out a precup and found a mess.

To answer your other question, no most folks wouldn't normally pop out a precup. However, I'm not most folks - I am building an engine and I am critical of the parts I bolt onto it. The first thing I noticed was some cast iron chips in the prechambers, and that the precup castings looked a but rough. So, I decided to pop one out. On a properly machined and assembled head you can remove a precup and reinstall it in the same chamber and it will seat perfectly and still be flush with the deck. Not so with these...

Finally, you don't always find trouble when you look for it, but you certainly don't find it if you DON'T look. I would rather find it before it finds me by way of some very expensive engine damage...

[john8662]

Another log to the fire on cracking, maybe to disprove what Max said above.

Cracking on the cylinder heads is also due to unequal cooling. Upon talking to vendors who work on these heads day in day out, and have taken the time section heads. The majority of the problem areas where they crack is where the material is too thick. The uneven cooling causes an area in which to crack, so making places thicker to combat cracking (the ad campaign by the after market 6.5 head guys) will actually amplify the problem. But, the induction hardening could contribute as well (chewing on this one).

Gotta admit tho, a shiny surface to mount to the block, and nice painted black head do nicer than the 10+ year old 6.5 head a person would have removed. Just trying to figure out why all the Ooohhh and Awwe is about when looking at an aftermarket head. I agree that the casting doesn't look as neat on the after market head. The exact same can be said for the complete Chinese Cylinder block/case I saw pictures of, to me it looked a little too close to amateur workmanship for my tastes.

[MaxPF]

Another log to the fire on cracking, maybe to disprove what Max said above.

Cracking on the cylinder heads is also due to unequal cooling. Upon talking to vendors who work on these heads day in day out, and have taken the time section heads. The majority of the problem areas where they crack is where the material is too thick. The uneven cooling causes an area in which to crack, so making places thicker to combat cracking (the ad campaign by the after market 6.5 head guys) will actually amplify the problem. But, the induction hardening could contribute as well (chewing on this one).

Gotta admit tho, a shiny surface to mount to the block, and nice painted black head do nicer than the 10+ year old 6.5 head a person would have removed. Just trying to figure out why all the Ooohhh and Awwe is about when looking at an aftermarket head. I agree that the casting doesn't look as neat on the after market head. The exact same can be said for the complete Chinese Cylinder block/case I saw pictures of, to me it looked a little too close to amateur workmanship for my tastes.

Uneven temperature distribution is certainly a contributing cause to crack formation. And you are correct - increasing the material above the seat between the valves will slow the movement of heat from the seat to the coolant causing this area to run even hotter, increasing the odds of crack formation.

There is no single cause to the cracking - it is a combination of several things that lead to the problem. The common denominator is where the crack starts. Many gasser heads are prone to cracking on the induction hardened exhaust seat as well, but exhaust seat inserts practically eliminate the cracking issues.

[More Power]

Do head castings that use valve seat inserts need to be designed for inserts? I've wondered about the thinning of the valve seat area to allow using inserts, and whether that would present more of an opportunity for cracking. Thinner, 90 degree angles, sharp edges and all.... Just askin.... I don't know...

Jim

[Robyn]

Many engines in the truck gasser variety over the years have used hardened seats in the heads and it never seemed to bother them any.
Also many times a head that has had a valve burn and messed up the seat will be repaired with a hard seat insert.

I certainly see where the question would come up as to the sharp corners.

Maybe a quiz of some of the big diesel shops would be in order to see what they do .


Robyn

[IUPAC]

Ok, the million dollar question.... Should I have my heads repaired or just replace them. Its not for a daily driver or hauler, and yes, money does matter.

[Robyn]

I personally would not waste a dime on repairing a 6.5 heads.
If its nothing more than a valve grind and a resurface then thats different, go for it.

Robyn