View Full Version : Injector Replacement
Lone Eagle
07-23-2003, 10:11
I just had a guy call me that is thinking of buying a new Dmax. He has been hearing from so called reliable sources that there are a lot of injectors problems after 100K. He was told the injectors are $6K and $2700 to install them. Does anyone have first hand info on the prices? I understand there are some after market injectors available also. Later! Lone Eagle
I believe a new set of injectors is more like $4000 or less.
Still ridiculous and a good reason to dump the truck before the warranty on the engine is up.
Lone Eagle, Would you shoot me an e-mail?
Thanks, Burner--------> :D
Originally posted by hoot:
Still ridiculous and a good reason to dump the truck before the warranty on the engine is up. WOW !!!!!!
You didn't say that did you Hoot ??? What a "Pandora's Box" .....
My belief is that the aftermarket will make a showing in addition cost of Bosch injectors will settle,just like everything else "IF" needed ..... More rumors ??? You be the judge .....What is the life expectancy of a high pressure diesel injector ??
Mac http://forums.thedieselstop.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shrug.gif
[ 07-23-2003, 11:23 AM: Message edited by: mackin ]
Originally posted by mackin:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by hoot:
Still ridiculous and a good reason to dump the truck before the warranty on the engine is up. WOW !!!!!!
You didn't say that did you Hoot ??? What a "Pandora's Box" .....
My belief is that the aftermarket will make a showing in addition cost of Bosch injectors will settle,just like everything else "IF" needed ..... More rumors ??? You be the judge .....What is the life expectancy of a high pressure diesel injector ??
Mac http://forums.thedieselstop.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shrug.gif </font>[/QUOTE]MAC,
We are moving into the 4th model year. I feel bad for anyone that has had to fork up thousands for injectors after the warranty is just finished.
Doesn't "Dura" mean durable? GM needs to be real careful or the injector failure/cost issue could damage their reputation even more. I see no reason an engine that costs this much should have us worrying if our injectors will last past 100,000 and if we should be saving up for it.
The reason I say dump before 100,000 is if this does turn out to be the case than resale on these trucks will plummet especially on trucks approaching 100,000 miles.
[ 07-23-2003, 11:34 AM: Message edited by: hoot ]
jcummins
07-23-2003, 11:37
I agree. I for one have concerns. I had intentions of running this truck well past 100M, that's one of the reasons I bought it. Now....just not sure. Just to much chatter about this to suit me.
If anyone has their pants in a bunch over it there is always an extended warranty ..... Any part is subject to fail sooner then later .....
GM isn't Bosch ..... Bosch R&D the system ..... Cummins has switched to a similar application ..... Why ??? Federal emission standards the same individuals that set diesel fuel standards well below European standards where the Bosch system has been very successful ....
GM has made changes, from what I've seen to make access for repairs easier therefore cost effective ..... Your quoting dealer prices for injectors ..... A set of Diesel Dynamics don't cost what your stating .... I feel sources will become available.... At one time not to long ago the Allison was thought to take whatever could be thrown at it,Dura ...... ;)
Where are all the out of warranty thousands ??? Where's Broker, http://www.turbodieselregister.com/ubb/hihi.gif
Guess I'm just not a worry wart, and have faith ..... VCR use to cost 700 bucks, too ......
Mac ;)
[ 07-23-2003, 11:58 AM: Message edited by: mackin ]
He he, I think Broker only knows trailers. Ask him what trailer to buy and he'll answer in a heartbeat.
We buy diesel because we think they are tough engines. We pay big bucks and expect GM to back these engines. I don't like the idea of one injector going at a time. Can you say about $1500 x 8?
GM used Stanadyne in the 6.5 which is a reputable company but the worst nightmare occurred and GM left many many people out in the cold with junk. Not until like the end of the 6.5 run did GM come out and extend the injection pump warranty to 110,000 miles. Big whip.
GM has done it before. If this ends up being a real problem, they could very well do it again judging by how they treated the 6.5 customers.
The real problem right now is we are just now seeing significant Dmax owners surpassing 100,000 miles. At this point there aren't enough issues on this page to worry me that much. If one of mine goes before warranty is up..... she's gone. If I have it that long as it is. I'll take that as a sign of the future.
I love this truck. She has been really good to me so far. I haven't had a problem in probably a year and even then only minor things that were fixed first time.
Who knows..... maybe a 2004 GMC in my future? Maybe a Cummins? Ford 6.0 is not in the running. That engine makes ours look like the cats meow.
[ 07-23-2003, 12:22 PM: Message edited by: hoot ]
dmaxalliTech
07-23-2003, 12:39
injectors can be had for 300.00 each and labor to replace all 8 would be about 800.00 or around 10-12 hours. list on injectors is higher, it just depends on who you know ;)
More Power
07-23-2003, 12:41
It would be interesting to know how many people here with injector problems (or any other engine/trans prolems) have played by the rules and never modified their engine control systems, and how many have. Can a correlation be made? This would be extremely valuable information that would help new owners make decisions about power products and truck modifications.
MP
careful MP lots of vendors here sell those modifications :D .........one injector @ 45k (return problem) modifications yes, problem as a result of no, I really don't think so......but???? :D dave
a64pilot
07-23-2003, 13:21
I just heard it from a reputable source that they can be re-built for considerably less than $100 a piece. Of course even if they were free there still a PITA to R&R. Maybe the 04 fixes the pain to R&R. If so it would be a good reason to wait for the late model 04 as opposed to an early model 04.
More Power
07-23-2003, 13:23
If a correlation can be made, that info needs to be made available. Risk assessment is a normal part of life.
If a correlation can be made, people need to take more responsibility for their own actions.
MP
jcummins
07-23-2003, 13:32
I would lean towards the fuel being the problem, not truck modifications. My nephew has driven semis for years. Says the company is having allot of injector issues. He thinks it's fuel related. I've been using additivies for several months, but really have no solid facts to say this will help.
SoCalDMAX
07-23-2003, 13:38
I agree with Dave. I don't see any correlation between boxes and injector failure. The boxes only change injector pulse width or timing. The injector is merely a plunger attached to a solenoid, it doesn't know or care what the pulse width or timing is.
If the electrical solenoid part was failing on all 8 injectors due to the duty cycle being too high, I could see blaming the boxes. The key here is: how many injectors are failing on the vehicle. All 8 would indicate they are being operated outside of their design/capabilities. One or 2 scattered here and there would indicate poor Q.A.
The injectors are failing mechanically. This indicates to me the following possibilities:
1. Bosch is demanding too much from the type of metal that they're using and it is wearing out prematurely.
2. Bosch may have discovered their error and made running changes to the injectors without telling anyone. I could believe this, after the tobacco co.s, Enron, Andersen Consulting, et al. I don't trust any major corp. to tell the truth or even act in an ethical manner with regards to the public.
3. The fuel cleanliness required to operate at these pressures is not being met by the petroleum nor by the factory filter. George Morrison proved this well enough to satisfy me.
4. The fuel rails from an outside supplier may have been improperly stored before assy., causing corrosion to occur inside them and allowing rust particles to reach the injectors, since they are after the fuel filter.
5. Any combination of the above.
Let's hear from some other members: anybody have an injector fail on a totally stock Dmax? Are there any totally stock Dmaxes out there? ;)
Regards, Steve
Originally posted by dmaxalliTech:
injectors can be had for 300.00 each and labor to replace all 8 would be about 800.00 or around 10-12 hours. list on injectors is higher, it just depends on who you know ;) I heard mid two's ..... Now you know why I'm not running to jump ship,or should I say that worried "if" a failure should occur ..... ;)
Just think in a few more months ......
Mac :D :D :D
Hoot ,what's up 3yr itch.....
http://forums.thedieselstop.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shrug.gif
[ 07-23-2003, 02:00 PM: Message edited by: mackin ]
chuntag95
07-23-2003, 13:42
I have had 3 injector cup seal failures and 2 injector failures all before my mod happy ways took over. The only thing done at the time of failure was the exhaust.
2002 D/A - totally stock - 45,000 miles - daily driver and work truck - tows a big load with the best of them - have had some knocking problems, but none diagnosed as an injector.
MP wrote:
It would be interesting to know how many people here with injector problems (or any other engine/trans prolems) have played by the rules and never modified their engine control systems, and how many have. Can a correlation be made? This would be extremely valuable information that would help new owners make decisions about power products and truck modifications. Excellent idea and lets continue to encourage
the high mileage lurkers to post on their experiences.
Maybe a clever computer person could put a
page together where we could self enter our mileage, modifications and service issues.
This page could be accessed by TDP members..........
In a moment of weakness :D :D I almost purchased the Juice, however, the reality is
that this truck has as much power as I need
for daily driver and my towing needs. The only
modification was the addition of my secondary
fuel filtration. I'm at 28,000 miles and my engine just
purrs.........
[ 07-23-2003, 02:26 PM: Message edited by: 56Nomad ]
Originally posted by 56Nomad:
MP wrote:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> It would be interesting to know how many people here with injector problems (or any other engine/trans prolems) have played by the rules and never modified their engine control systems, and how many have. Can a correlation be made? This would be extremely valuable information that would help new owners make decisions about power products and truck modifications. Excellent idea and lets continue to encourage
the high mileage lurkers to post on their experiences.
Maybe a clever computer person could put a
page together where we could self enter our mileage, modifications and service issues.
This page could be accessed by TDP members.......... </font>[/QUOTE]Are you suggesting a secret place to air our dirty laundry ??
Mac http://forums.thedieselstop.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/phoney.gif
Are you suggesting a secret place to air our dirty laundry ?? Yep.... clean laundry too.
dmaxalliTech
07-23-2003, 15:24
MACKIN, mid 2's is likely if your a good customer ;)
I can speek first hand about this subject bacause a majority of the trucks we service are bone stock. I have seen numerous failures of injectors, not an alarming number but have seen them, There is a chevy dealer next to us and I frequently speak to thier diesel guy (he is good) he sees plenty also. I am not an expert on performance mods so I dont know for sure, but I havent seen any first hand failures that can be attributed to power adders. Most of the failures I am aware off are leaks, both through the body and the pintle. The jury is out on whether boxes contribute to failure as far as I am concerned...
Back to MP reply, I agree it would be interesting to tell, but I dont know how accuratly you could tell/ contribute the failure to the performance mod.
JK and I have discussed injectors on many occasions and have agreed that 'reman' injectors may suffer some quality issues unless they have replaced all mechanical parts, minute wear can effect flow rates and even new injectors have a large varience in flow rates...It would also be interestin to know the warr on an aftermarket injector..
If the resale will dump at 100k, I am interested in anothe truck :D
More Power
07-23-2003, 15:31
First, let me say that I believe that most types of failures, whether they be fuel system related or drivetrain related, are more likely to occur on modified trucks. Is this coincidence? Is there a correlation? We may never know with certainty unless we see the data - unless people with problem trucks say whether their trucks are (or have been) modified.
Second, everyone can post here on this BB without anyone knowing who you are unless you used your real name in your forum handle, or you posted personally identifiable information in a posted message.
I think it's a fair question to ask anyone who reports an injector (or any other component) failure whether they modified their truck.
MP
dmaxalliTech
07-23-2003, 15:35
Originally posted by More Power:
First, let me say that I believe that most types of failures, whether they be fuel system related or drivetrain related, are more likely to occur on modified trucks. Is this coincidence? Is there a correlation? We may never know with certainty unless we see the data - unless people with problem trucks say whether their trucks are (or have been) modified.
Second, everyone can post here on this BB without anyone knowing who you are unless you used your real name in your forum handle, or you posted personally identifiable information in a posted message.
I think it's a fair question to ask anyone who reports an injector (or any other component) failure whether they modified their truck.
MP if they will tell...... I hope they do. smile.gif
While there is some potential for increased risk with pressure type boxes, I think thatthere is little/no connection with pulse type boxes.
I have 45k on mine, and haven't necessarily been easy on it. I have almost NEVER operated without a box of some type installed, and haven't had injector problems. I DO run an emulsifying additive in every tank, and have had auxillary filtration on my fuel system for the past 15k. Many of the people that I have talked to with injector problems are NOT running boxes, and many of those who are, continue to do so and once "out of the woods" (seems that there is a lot of recurrence until all are changed) they seem to be trouble free. I have a customer in NC that had repeated injector failures, and now (knock on wood) since installing my filter hasn't had any grief.
It has also been my undocumented observation that ther is a greater tendency for injector related issues to be associated with 2001 models.
45k on mine and my engine oil is dramatically cleaner at 7k sampling than 99% of the fuel after the OE Racor filter! :eek:
Maverick
07-23-2003, 16:03
If the resale will dump at 100k, I am interested in anothe truck I can't even give my truck away. Nobody's interested. At 122,000 miles, it is relativly low miles for diesel. What to do. :(
More Power,
I agree any modifications to power output could effect component durability. And yes it's almost impossible to see the whole picture.
Unfortunately GM had the head redesign in it's plans not long after or even during the introduction of this engine. Kinda makes you wonder if they knew there would be issues early on but it was too late to do anything about it at the time.
As the techs who see these trucks everyday are saying, it is not a rare occurrance for injectors to go bad. There is also talk about a second generation injector with harder internals. Now the 04 is finally getting the new heads to allow easier service.
No doubt in my mind GM is well aware and has been for a long time that there are fuel/injector problems. My honest opinion is the higher pressures and dirty fuels are the culprit.
All I want is GM to take the load off my mind and tell me it won't cost me anything for the projected 200,000 mile life.
Now here's the kicker....
Diesel pickups are not any more cost effective than a comparably powered gas truck. Payback typically hits around 100,000 miles. If this engine becomes a liability at that mileage, what's the advantage? We payed big bucks for the option only to see no real advantage.
It does sound cool and I really like the turbo whine :D
One dealer in the area has been replacing pumps and injectors on a number of trucks. Make me feel good :( On the other hand I worked in the GM store for 4 years and at F**d store now for 2 years and I can say that I have seen as many if not more 7.3PS injectors changed than 6.5 pumps. I know I am comparing apples, oranges and grapes here but it make me wonder.
I have 64000km (40000k) on my truck (stock), run addative from day 1 driven hard every day, too date no engine related problems.
Of cource now that I said that??
Captain Mal
07-23-2003, 21:15
140,000 miles and bone stock except for the K&N air filter. First injector went at about 117,000m. Next around 124,000m and the last about 135,000m. Today the last dealer that put an injector in, Budd Baer - Washington, Pa., spent 5 hours changing a single valve cover gasket. NO CHARGE.
GM says to reuse the inner gasket. Penny wise and pound foolish can describe that. Mine split on the underside and it was hard to see the tear. Leaked oil all over. The '04 engine has the changes to stop this silly waste of time and expense with these injectors.
My repairs have totalled about $2,900 for the injectors and down-time was about 7 full days.
THESE HAVE BEEN THE ONLY REPAIRS EVER.
Truck still has original brakes, suspension, 3rd set of tires etc. I change the fluids myself and just run it. If it weren't for the injectors the truck would be PERFECT.
Originally posted by drgracr:
One dealer in the area has been replacing pumps and injectors on a number of trucks. Make me feel good :( On the other hand I worked in the GM store for 4 years and at F**d store now for 2 years and I can say that I have seen as many if not more 7.3PS injectors changed than 6.5 pumps. I know I am comparing apples, oranges and grapes here but it make me wonder.
I have 64000km (40000k) on my truck (stock), run addative from day 1 driven hard every day, too date no engine related problems.
Of cource now that I said that?? My point exactly .... If info were to be gathered on actual Proven Injector failure, the diss allotment for miss diagnostics would prevail IMO ...
How many trannys were replaced for nothing ??? I can assure you tons ..... Three at my participating, for COLD operating issues ..... Gimme a break, lack of training on real service issues ..... We are gonna base the statistics on that
??
Give it some time ,Lets be realistic here on this,to many variables for true data ......
Mac
GMC-2002-Dmax
07-24-2003, 06:24
Let me get this straight, an otherwise perfect truck with around 100K miles has to be dumped because it might cost you $2500-$4000 for new injectors with labor.
Let me run out and spend $45K-$50K on a brand new truck, finance it again and then make a few more years of payments :confused: , just because it might fail.
For me, I am not worried. As MACKIN said, prices will come down and stabilize. I do not believe that bombing a truck has any bearing on injector failures, unless as Kennedy said you are using a pressure box.
If bombing a truck is the suspected cause then why are we hearing about stock trucks with injectors failing? and I don't think it's as many as we might think.
I believe that any mass produced part or humanly assembled component has a chance for a failure at any time. If we expect everything to last forever we are living in WONDERLAND :eek: .
I buy fuel from a reliable station, I don't filter it with a secondary, but filter if you wish.
I Don't sweat the small stuff.
GMC :D
I need a NAP :eek:
dmaxalliTech
07-24-2003, 06:35
I have heard from reliable sources that over half of the tranny's that were returned for warr issues were not bad
GMC-2002-Dmax wrote:
Let me get this straight, an otherwise perfect truck with around 100K
miles has to be dumped because it might cost you $2500-$4000 for
new injectors with labor. Let me run out and spend $45K-$50K on a
brand new truck, finance it again and then make a few more years
of payments, just because it might fail. Now if you live in California, the already expensive registration fees
has been tripled because the State is 38 billion $ in debt. I wonder
what that amount would be for a new $45,000 truck? Sales tax
alone would be over $3500 What a rip off :(
Originally posted by GMC-2002-Dmax:
Let me get this straight, an otherwise perfect truck with around 100K miles has to be dumped because it might cost you $2500-$4000 for new injectors with labor.
Let me run out and spend $45K-$50K on a brand new truck, finance it again and then make a few more years of payments :confused: , just because it might fail.
For me, I am not worried. As MACKIN said, prices will come down and stabilize. I do not believe that bombing a truck has any bearing on injector failures, unless as Kennedy said you are using a pressure box.
If bombing a truck is the suspected cause then why are we hearing about stock trucks with injectors failing? and I don't think it's as many as we might think.
I believe that any mass produced part or humanly assembled component has a chance for a failure at any time. If we expect everything to last forever we are living in WONDERLAND :eek: .
I buy fuel from a reliable station, I don't filter it with a secondary, but filter if you wish.
I Don't sweat the small stuff.
GMC :D
I need a NAP :eek: Basically you can call it a no win situation. I would think a gasser at probably 5 to 7 thousand dollars less will be less likely to incur 2-3000 dollar repair bill at 100,000 miles. Get what I'm saying?
Two comparible trucks except one is gas the other diesel. At 100,000 miles, which one cost more? Probably the same after fuel efficiency is factored in.... maybe not.
Now look at both trucks after 100,000 miles. As long as the injection system in the diesel holds up for 200,000 miles, the diesel wins. If not.... what's the point in owning a diesel if you break down and put out 2-3000 dollars? What do we do, as soon as one goes, replace them all? At our expense?
GMC-2002-Dmax,
Your point about buying new again is true.... but the difference is, I would have a new truck while you'll not only be breaking down who knows where, you'll be forking out big $$ and hoping whoever fixes it knows what they're doing.
You see I drive 40 miles to work each day (80 total) on a busy highway. I won't put up with injectors going bad while driving to work.
Look at Captain Mal.... out on vacation or whatever and she breaks down. Hey I can handle a breakdown every now and then but not one that I know will likely occur after 100,000 miles.
All this only if this really is a big issue.
Hoot...... you fret too much ;)
Originally posted by 56Nomad:
Hoot...... you fret too much ;) Nah it's peer pressure ...Looking for a reason to bail and get a straight axle Ford ..... tongue.gif
Hoot wrote
I would have a new truck while you'll not only be breaking down who knows where, you'll be forking out big $$ and hoping whoever fixes it knows what they're doing. At the procrastinating failure rate your projecting, everyone and their brother will have hands on ..... Gonna worry yourself right to a new Ford aren't ya ???
Mac http://www.turbodieselregister.com/ubb/hihi.gif http://www.turbodieselregister.com/ubb/hihi.gif http://www.turbodieselregister.com/ubb/hihi.gif
More Power
07-24-2003, 10:56
Hoot sees a conspiracy behind everything. This web site, GM, you name it.
A couple of observations.... Sure a dealer tech will see the problems. How many Duramax owner reported problems does a single dealer tech come into contact relative to the admin & mods here at TDP? How many people without problems report that fact, relative to those who do? And, as was mentioned above, how many dealer techs have replaced perfectly good component parts? I could relate a couple disastrous service stories, as reported to me by other members, that caused a cascade of failures.
Lastly, as more trucks go out of warranty, and demand for replacement parts grows, the aftermarket will fill that void with less expensive and high-quality parts. Just like we did for the 6.2/6.5, we'll also produce a user guide showing how to perform most Duramax related service procedures. In the end, out-of warranty Duramax 6600 service costs will be cut in half or more.
In the meantime, maybe this will help......
http://www.thedieselpage.com/images/6600injectors.jpg
MP
Originally posted by mackin:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by 56Nomad:
Hoot...... you fret too much ;) Nah it's peer pressure ...Looking for a reason to bail and get a straight axle Ford ..... tongue.gif
Hoot wrote
I would have a new truck while you'll not only be breaking down who knows where, you'll be forking out big $$ and hoping whoever fixes it knows what they're doing. At the procrastinating failure rate your projecting, everyone and their brother will have hands on ..... Gonna worry yourself right to a new Ford aren't ya ???
Mac </font>[/QUOTE]MAC,
How dare you accuse me of thinking about a Ford :mad: ;)
I've had really great luck with my GM trucks. Here's my testimony....
1989 K1500 350 GAS 60,000 miles
1989 K1500 350 GAS 30,000 miles
1993 K2500 6.5 TD 18,500 miles
1997 K2500 6.5 TD 80,000 miles
2001 2500HD 6.6 TD 57,000 miles
All of the above trucks never broke down on the road, not even once. I got first GM truck in 1990, the 89 K1500. I have't taken one over 100,000 in my life as you can see. The first two were used when I got them.
Straight axle doesn't "steer" me. My preferences are no breakdowns and full crew cab and 4X4. Right now GM is the ONLY choice.
More Power Says:
"Hoot sees a conspiracy behind everything. This web site, GM, you name it."
Maybe so Jim. Like the conspiracy that this site/forum was being compromised by who nose who so we weren't allowed to have anything but straight text for three freekin years. tongue.gif
You've had nothing but good luck with AC Delco batteries but the fact is.... they suck.
Injection failures are occurring at a relatively high rate, is that a fact?
GM started redesigning the heads for easier injector replacement in late 2000/early 2001. I'm not calling that a GM conspiracy, just saying maybe they new something we didn't. All I ask is that they stand by their product if they are to to blame. OK I'm sorry, the warranty is 100,000 miles. Guess what.... I have nothing to worry about. It'll probably be gone by then. I'd rather put the loss into a new rig... probably another GM.
How about the 6.5 TD injection pump nightmare. Don't you think GM could have done a few things differently? Or was there money to be saved at the customers expense.
Don't go blowing this up like I'm dead set on unloading my truck anytime soon. Sure we need to wait. The question is will the real truth surface here anytime soon?
Do I need a secondary fuel filter?
Flame on boys.
BTW:
How much for a whole box...?
http://www.thedieselpage.com/images/6600injectors.jpg
[ 07-24-2003, 11:19 AM: Message edited by: hoot ]
sonofagun
07-24-2003, 11:19
Oh Oh --
Did I hear Mac whisper a new handle for Hoot?
FO hoot RD ?? http://www.handykult.de/plaudersmilies.de/lach.gif Mabye just wind in the trees?
Sorry Hoot http://www.handykult.de/plaudersmilies.de/knuddel.gif
Bob
More Power
07-24-2003, 12:28
Hoot said: Injection failures are occurring at a relatively high rate, is that a fact?
Define "relatively high rate". Where's your data to support your definition?
Hoot said: How about the 6.5 TD injection pump nightmare. Don't you think GM could have done a few things differently?
Yes, I agree, it was a poorly designed fuel injection pump. I chose to be constructively engaged in helping solve problems, and we've written extensively about the pump's deficiencies and provided information designed to reduce failures. Whining wouldn't help anyone.
Hoot said: The question is will the real truth surface here anytime soon?
You'd just think it was part of another conspiracy...... Just like when I explained the "real truth" to you about the image/link issue here in the BB. tongue.gif
MP
[ 07-24-2003, 03:08 PM: Message edited by: More Power ]
It would go from Hoot to Hoodge....
He wouldn't buy a Ford in it's current condition .... He knows I'm breaking his marbles ...
My opinion, might not mean much, is the fuel system the Duramax possess is a top notch system that may be hampered by poor American fuel quality, and some perhaps manufacturing quality mechanical issue that "I feal" will rear their ugly head early on, as any mass produced part is susceptible too .... Nothing is perfect,failures will occur ...
Long term longevity wouldn't hurt to add some additional filtering capabilities, "if" and when it's proven to actual make a difference ....
Mac
Hoot said: Injection failures are occurring at a relatively high rate, is that a fact?
MP said:
Define "relatively high rate". Where's your data to support your definition?
Wait a minute... I asked a question. ;)
Hoot said: How about the 6.5 TD injection pump nightmare. Don't you think GM could have done a few things differently?
MP said:
Yes, I agree, it was a poorly designed fuel injection pump. I chose to be constructively engaged in helping solve problems, and we've written extensively about the pump's deficiencies and provided information designed to reduce failures. Whining wouldn't help anyone.
Squeeky wheel gets the grease. It's all good stuff but the other side of the coin is GM solving the problem, not just the customer. Take the Delco batteries as an example. That problem has been around for a good 5-10 years. My 2001 had a bad one. I realize I sound like I'm whining but that's not a good enough reason to shut up about it. Talking, whining, complaining.. call it what you wish. How about we just hush hush and fix the problems as they arise ourselves.
Hoot said: The question is will the real truth surface here anytime soon?
MP said:
You'd just think it was part of another conspiracy...... Just like when I explained the "real truth" to you about the image/link issue here in the BB. tongue.gif
And Broker put 468,000 miles on his 2001 Dmax. Never said it was a conspiracy, just wanted to see it. Still vaporware.
I WORK FOR A CHEVY DEALER AND WE HAVE HAD ONLY 2 TRUCKS IN WITH INJECTOR PROBLEMS 1 01 1 02. MILAGE 45,000-55,000 BONE STOCK. I ASKED BOTH OWNERS IF THEY HAVE EVER CHANGED THERE FUEL FILTERS,THEY SAID NO!!!!!!!!!!!! BOTH WHERE WORK TRUCKS THAT GOT THERE FUEL FROM ANY PLACE THAT SOLD IT.
Hoot,(Mike H.) :confused:
I cant believe what i'm reading, DUMP'EM before 100K !
Guys , i know alot of you hate me,but get a grip.
I posted this problem with mods on another board way back in 02(HOOT READ IT).I know alot of guys with no mods and working the D/A combo and no problems.I posted on fuel filtration back in 01 also.I filterd all my haulers since my first Dodge in 94.
This is not news! If you play you pay. Is see so many abused D/A's at auction that dealers won't even bid on them .They pay more for a 8.1l/A.
I'm going to Framingham MA Adesa tomorrow and i'll post what they went for if they sold.
Tom L.
Brokers (dispatcher) I remember asking you what filters you used and it was like pulling teeth to get anything technical out of you. That I could never figure out. Plenty of posts about your latest rides though.
What do you know about mods and how they efect injectors? Please tell.
Maybe injectors aren't a problem.
Broker, keep us up to date and informed. :rolleyes:
[ 07-24-2003, 06:38 PM: Message edited by: hoot ]
Hoot (programmer). I most certainly will!
How about that offer for your truck?Before you turn a perfect 6.6l into a 6.5l BY-WORD-OF-MOUTH!
PLUG&PAY ! :rolleyes:
What's left? the 6.0PSD and 6.6lDura are junk now?
Do i smell a Dodge in your future? You will be the first rat off the ship,if you think it's sinking!
Hoot always "TWISTING IN THE WIND"!
Good luck.
[ 07-24-2003, 07:09 PM: Message edited by: BROKERS ]
Originally posted by BROKERS:
Hoot (programmer). I most certainly will!
How about that offer for your truck?Before you turn a perfect 6.6l into a 6.5l BY-WORD-OF-MOUTH!
PLUG&PAY ! :rolleyes: Oh yea... don't talk about Dmax problems. It'll turn into a 6.5... or should I say 6.0 PSD at midnight.
None of this BS changes the fact that a large group of us are concerned and have taken steps to control the cleanliness of our fuel.
There were extensive studies that CAT had done for them that showed todays fuels are loaded with particles in the range that will prematurely wear high pressure injectors. Either the injectors are fine and the fuel is dirty the injectors aren't able to last as long as we'd like.
More Power,
What do you think? Do you think there is anything worth talking about here or is it one of my conspiracies?
[ 07-24-2003, 07:14 PM: Message edited by: hoot ]
OH,HOOT when the clock strikes midnite! Don't jump into your pumpkin!
Get a grip.You will turn The venerable 6.6l into a 6.5l !I give you 6 months and you will get it done.This topic is on other forums already.
Hoot-the-dmax-king-has-spoken,"Dump your dmaxes before 100k!"
Broker,
You don't talk about the Juice detector anymore. What happened? Somebody zip your lip ;)
I don't believe that there is an Injector issue.
It's a fuel issue.Then again bring on the power by plug &p(l)ay ,which puts the engine design right out the window.I got no injector issues and you know it,you have asked me for over 2 years about it.
Hoot what ever,we get them to run and that is all i care about.
Yes the 6.0l PSD has been my worst diesel ownership experience to date!Ford has it more than we have it!
When i recieve mine ,i'll make sure to get into mackins hands.
Hey look at my number of posts? Stuck at 144.
Iguess i'm booted at 145?
Hoodge you'll get your wish yet.
Hey i bet the other board where you get $00.05 per hit is earning you some good cash after everything you have created.794 views in 60min!
[ 07-24-2003, 07:57 PM: Message edited by: BROKERS ]
Originally posted by Maverick:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> If the resale will dump at 100k, I am interested in anothe truck I can't even give my truck away. Nobody's interested. At 122,000 miles, it is relativly low miles for diesel. What to do. :( </font>[/QUOTE]Maverick, You could give it to me.
dmaxalliTech
07-24-2003, 20:31
Boy, how come everything in this forum gets me laughing? hehe. I remember Brokers talkin about his 'detector' while I am not sure if such a thing exists, the numbers that were on 'it' were good, I dont remember exactly what they were but they did jive with stuff that sounded familier....
I belong to the International Automotive Technicians Network (iATN) and each day I recieve about 30 emails from around the country on GM engine, transmission, and drivability problems. I have a large amount that I have saved from different shops that have had injector issues on stock trucks, The last fellow I talked to had a truck in with 245,000K on it. I know also from talking with GM TAC and many instructers around the country for GM that there are injector issues. Sure, I agree that boxes etc. may add to to the problem and agree that you pay-to-play..Remember TLA and his issues with his truck? Failed injector with no juice on it at time (alledged no juice at time) failed injector took out motor. I can think of 6 trucks with out even trying that have come in for injector issues, all bone stock. Injector problems seem like a big issue with these trucks but for the number of them out there I think its minimal overall. I have to remind myself that being on a forum like this is going to bring out alot of customer feedback that would be otherwise impossible to get. I think the Bosch common rail system is used on many types of engines, including European vehicles where diesel is much more popular for pass vehicles. I dont know the extent of there problems if any. Perhaps its the fuel quality here in the US compared to across the pond. I think if you compare the cost of injector problems after warrenty compared to repairs made on a gasser, its negligable. Irratating though none the less.
dmaxalliTech,
Good info.
I think that's a wrap. Time to move on cause at this stage there ain't a whole lot more to talk about as far as injectors go.
Dmaxallitech.
I agree with you on the fuel issue.
So you know where gm is coming from on the plug &pay. Especially on their lease returns.Ask around and i'm sure some one you know ,knows about the "juice detector"Why would i make it up?
I GAVE EXACT INFO FROM THE BACK OF IT AND EVERYBODY FREAKED OUT.
Anyhow that is an issue that i rather stay away from untill i recieve mine.
Hey aren't we here to laugh and learn?
Sorry! THE-GREAT-HOOT-HAS-SPOKEN!
Then so be it written in history. :rolleyes:
dmaxalliTech
07-24-2003, 21:11
Originally posted by BROKERS:
Dmaxallitech.
I agree with you on the fuel issue.
So you know where gm is coming from on the plug &pay. Especially on their lease returns.Ask around and i'm sure some one you know ,knows about the "juice detector"Why would i make it up?
I GAVE EXACT INFO FROM THE BACK OF IT AND EVERYBODY FREAKED OUT.
Anyhow that is an issue that i rather stay away from untill i recieve mine.
Hey aren't we here to laugh and learn? I havent yet found anybody that has heard of it, but given the numbers on the back of it, I cant ignore the possibities.
Hey,Dmaxallitech,on another subject.How many front rotor problems are you seeing on the K3500's?
I have had 2 rotors split and lost a 1/2 moon out of the brake surface.The second incedent took out the brakeline and damaged the fueltank.
GMC-2002-Dmax
07-25-2003, 06:50
Originally posted by dmaxalliTech:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by BROKERS:
Dmaxallitech.
I agree with you on the fuel issue.
So you know where gm is coming from on the plug &pay. Especially on their lease returns.Ask around and i'm sure some one you know ,knows about the "juice detector"Why would i make it up?
I GAVE EXACT INFO FROM THE BACK OF IT AND EVERYBODY FREAKED OUT.
Anyhow that is an issue that i rather stay away from untill i recieve mine.
Hey aren't we here to laugh and learn? I havent yet found anybody that has heard of it, but given the numbers on the back of it, I cant ignore the possibities. </font>[/QUOTE]Ahh,
The Dreaded OJ Finder :eek: . Posted some numbers off the back of the magic little box. Must have missed that thread :confused: . How about someone enlightening me about it.
Maybe it only appears on a Full Moon, on Friday the 13th, with a High Tide when Mars and Jupiter are in alignment. tongue.gif tongue.gif tongue.gif .
B.S. then and B.S. now. Besides, if GM has a way to find it someone smarter will figure a way to erase it.
Just 1's and 0's.
Hey Broker, if you show on Saturday to the CT Dyno day, jot down some numbers off the back and give them to Mackin so he can e-mail me.
Later,
GMC ;)
P.S. I won't hold my breath waiting for proof !!!!
Originally posted by Broker:
We are not maxed out on weight all the time.
Sometimes we are running with 4 Bonnevilles
or 4 windstars.That is way below our max.
We along 90% of our competitors are running roughly the same running gear.They run with no CDL and they run real quick compared to a F-650.And when they are empty they are fast.
Brakes are electric over hydrolic on all three axels on the trailer.Bracking is no problem.It is only the hills that kill our speed in Vermont.But we are getting power upgrades as we speak. Broker.... how dare you. Power upgrades? I thought you stayed away from them.
N.E. TMRPR
07-27-2003, 21:19
I have K3500 CC that now has 91,000 plus miles on it. It is totally stock and I fuel it mostly out of my own holding tank in my garage. I have double filters on it and had my first injector problems at 71,000. They replaced all eight injectors and the truck was back to normal and then #8 started leaking. The dealer took the truck in and ordered a new injector and line. The line and injector was replaced and returned to me. After about 150 miles #8 started pouring fuel all over the bottom of my truck. Back again to the dealer and they do #8 again. I get it back and after half a day #2 and #8 are leaking this time. I call the dealer on Thurs. morning at 8 am and tell them to pick it up right away because I needed it for Tues. for a haul job with my gooseneck for a quick $2,500. They finally get it at 1pm on Friday and start working on it Sat. morning. They call me on Monday morning and tell me that the parts will be in on Weds. morning. So much for good service huh! So now my $2,500 is out the window. They finally get the truck done on Thursday and now I'm ****ed. I went to the owner and told him after doing business with him for 15 plus years {Usually buying a new truck every 2 years plus my wife buying a new Envoy} and spending $75,000 in 01 with him I thought they should take care of me with the trade in of my truck and a great price on the new one. I had considered keeping this truck longer but they couldn't seem to fix it and did'nt want to pay for repairs after warranty. I also spoke with the tech who worked on the truck and this is what he told me. If someone can verify this I would appreciate it. The tech said that the injectors have a roll pin in the top of the body and they had been torqueing the line nuts down too much causing the roll pin to break and the injector to leak. Back to my deal. The owner gave me blue book for my truck {$24,000} and took $6,800 off the list of $48,700 plus the rebate it came to $15,000. I thought this wasn't too bad. By the way, I took the truck for a 600 mile tow this past few days and there's no more leaks and the mileage was back to around 12.8 mpgs with the trailer running 80 mph. It's still going this week! I have faith in the truck as the rest of it has been flawless. It still has the original tires {they are about done} over 50% brakes and still is extremely tight. I do beleive GM will solve the injector issue with Bosch. I have three friends with the 6.0 Ford and they have already had injector issues. The requirements for the EPA are whats causing the failures. Sorry for the long post but I thought my case applied.
Bulldogger
07-28-2003, 12:22
With all the talk about injectors going south did anybody ever try Diesel Dynamics they offer injectors for $1200 with exchange. If your gonna change them, any idea if these are any good? do they have a truck that shows up at pull-offs or Dyno days. Dave smile.gif
How do people KNOW their injectors are leaking significantly? Is it funky idle, a major miss, major smoke or what?
I have a little ~25-50rpm jump in idle speed, lasts a fraction of a second, every few seconds it happens. I don't care about it, it is no big deal. If it is a leaky injector I don't care.
When SHOULD I care?
dmaxalliTech
08-21-2003, 15:03
You will know it, smoke, rough idle, rough running, knocking. fuel in oil, all are signs of injector trouble. Is your truck an 01?
Your idle surge has two fixes, a programming update and if thats not it, its likely a pressure regulator
Dmax pays only about $75 per injector. If you have to pay $6K for a set either GM or Isuzu is making a killing.
This sounds about right. Parts seem to cost 3 to 4 times at the dealer as to what you can buy through regular part outlets. Case in point, fuel filters for $45 while you can by them online for $18. How about Allison tranny filters for $27 at the dealer while at the Allison shop, filters go for $9. If GM would get their act together and sell the injectors for say $150 (still leaving them and the dealer with 100% mark-up), the repair bill would not leave customers in a state of shock. So much for customer satisfaction.
You can just call it going for the almighty dollar!
Contamination in injectors:
Becareful when replacing the first fuel filter. I know that the majority of Cummins injector problems with the Bosh injectors begin AFTER the first filter change. The break into the system to install the filter introduces contamination after the filter connection which can end up in your injectors.
The Cummins and Dmax injector have the same guts expect with diffent hydraulic orifices to control the injector performance. The components have have different part numbers and are produced in the same equipment.
The Cummins injector body is made from bar stock with a low pressure return at the bottom of the injector. The Dmax injector is made from a forging and its low pressure connection is off a forged ear at the top. A injector with an internal crack will show up as a poor performing cylinder with a high back flow from the low pressure connection. Since the bar stock has a more uniform grain structure then the forging the bar stock (round) injector will probably have a longer life.
Since the Dmax motor came out before the Cummins motor, it had more of the process improvements to prevent body cracking. The Cummins injectors from the get-go should be more reliable relating to body cracks anyway.
Personally being in automotive engineering, I would never buy a product with a brand new system of anything the first year it was out. There is always a learning curve and the products near the end of their market life are the most reliable. Considering the technical challenges with materials (steels) resisting the high pressures it is no wonder there are material problems and cracks. The materials are under severe stesses.
Common rail pressures are pushing the limits of material science. The higher the pressures the more problems there will be.
Anyone jacking the system pressure up with specialmodules to increase performance is killing their injector life at the same time. The injector body fatigues and it has a life measured in pulses at the design pressure.
Whoz,
I'll ask the obvious, did you participate in the design of the DMAX injector and if so, how many iterations of the design have we been through?
With regard to "special modules to increase performance", most of these boxes do not increase rail pressure on the DMAX above the stock 23Kpsi design (very early boxes did raise rail pressure). However, the rail pressure on the DMAX swings all over the place, depending on engine operating conditions. So,,,those who have these add-on boxes on their trucks have a tendency to push the truck a little harder and thus are operating with a higher "average" rail pressure than those who do not have a box. In any case, the max pressure is always within the stock 23Kpsi design limit.
From my perspective (and after reading the GM injector warranty letter that I received), I came to the conclusion there are multiple problems with the original injector design. Some of these problems the DMAX owner can have an impact on by increasing the lubricity of the fuel (additive) and cleaning-up the fuel (supplemental filtering). Some of these issues, the owner can have no impact on (fundamental design material property issues that you mention). Hopefully, DMAX Limited and Bosch are working off the issues.
By the way, I am an electrical engineer in the Defense Electronics business. Our product evolutions are similar to those that you work on in the automotive area. We design a product to an agressive cost and schedule, then build, test and deliver the product. After delivery, we begin with product updates (usually software). I purposely waited to buy the second year DMAX with the above in mind, looks like I did not escape the injector issues though.
Regards,
Alan
[ 01-27-2005, 04:27 AM: Message edited by: OC_DMAX ]
More Power
01-27-2005, 08:45
By 2001, a series of Duramax 6600 engines had already been tested for more than the equivalent of a combined 1M miles in GM's engineering facility. In addition, the first 6600 began durability testing in 1998, and by 1999, fleets of 6600 equipped trucks were being tested in the SW and in AK.
The earliest engines were basically hand built in Japan, and I suspect the earliest fuel injection systems were hand built by Bosch. I tend not to think the injector design is faulty, but rather that the demands of mass production allow problems to creep into the finished product. Up till late 2002, DMAX was producing something on the order of 400 engines per day, then in late 2002 or early 2003, that number went to as high as ~800 as the second line began production. This figure can require as many as ~6,400 injectors per day being built into engines x six days per week.
I'd bet GM has equipped the chair seats in their conference rooms with hot plates (especially for the Bosch engineers). :D
MP
I did not participate in the design, but I do know those who did. I was more on the processing side. The design it self was very stable, the issue is the processing of the steel components. There were no major design changes within a generation. The customers will not allow that.
The body steel is pushed to the max and all stress concentrations must be removed from the part. That means all bore intersections in the high pressure area need to be ECM deburred and rounded and any chemical process (derusting before phosphating, neutralizing after ECM) need to not attack the grain boundaries in the steel. If the pickling before phosphating is to hard the MnS stringers are eaten away and it leaves a very tiny pit for the pressure to work on and start a crack.
I agree the American fuel is crap. The Europeans have worked a long time on the fuel quality to be able to run fuel lubricated pumps. The Cummins and the Dmax are both fuel lubricated pumps. If the US could get as good of quality fuel there would be a lot less problems with the pump and the injectors.
The newest injector (generation 3 1800 bar) will be made without a phosphate coating. It is a waste of money to have it since the Dmax injectors are covered by the oil cover anyway. The problem is that nobody likes the cosmetic issues with finger print rust, etc. The incoming inspection expects a perfect looking part, or else it is rejected. But, in order to make it look perfect other things unseen might be disadvantaged.
The rail pressure swings because the pump is suction controlled with a proportional valve. If the valve overshoots it give a little more fuel to the compression piston and the rail pressure goes up. And, there is the response time of the pressure regulator so under dynamic conditions I'm sure you have lots of ways the system can over and undershoot.
What is a shame is that there are no passanger cars with common rail in the US. The Bosch Diesl magazine had an article of a new Honda Accord with common rail. It got 75 mpg on the highway. All common rail and unit injector systems have good low end torque and are fun to drive. I would buy such a system if they were available and the US fuel were better. The VWs with the unit injectors are also very fun to drive.
[ 01-27-2005, 12:42 PM: Message edited by: whoz ]
Excellent discussion here Whoz, thanks for the insight into some of the issues with the injectors and the material processes involved in making them. I need to track down the materials guy here at work so he can educate me on some of the finer details that you wrote about.
Its unfortunate that the US Government / Industry cannot get their act together and clean-up the diesel fuel. I have been following the recent lubricity standards that are being negotiated with industry (as we roll out Ultra-Low-Sulfur Diesel here in the US). There seemed to be an excellent chance to minimize injector system wear by increasing the lubricity of the ULSD fuel. That chance has faded and the final wear standards seem to be well short of what Bosch recommended.
I am also leaning to agree with what MorePower mentioned above (original prototype designs worked fine, but when produced in a production environment little process problems creep in). I have seen this happen before also.
Later,
Alan
The new system for large diesels, to replace the unit injection system, is the pressure amplified system. The high pressure (2400 bar) is isolated to a limited portion of the injector. That means the pump and rail both operate at lower pressures that don't tax the materials so much. The trade off is that the pump has to put out more flow in proportion to the amplifier ratio. In this case a fuel cooler is recommended since the amplifier return fuel is hot. Hot fuel has poorer lubrication properties as well.
The cost reliability trade off is being made once again. The customers are pressuring the injection system designers to design pumps and injectors that can operate with fuel temps. of 90 deg C. That means everything is pushed to the limit to avoid the heat exchanger and its associated costs. To me they are setting themselves up for failure. They are saving money on piece costs and will have the customer pay it back in reliability costs.
It is like the stupid timing belts in cars that have to be changed. I'd rather pay for a timing chain even if it is a little more noisy. The same idiotic trade off was being made with stainless steel exhaust. I gladly pay another $100 on the car price to not have to replace the exhaust system for $125 every two years. Thank goodness the Feds required the manufacturers to warranty the exhaust system for 5 years. They knew what the costs would be and added stainless steel on their own!
The unit injection system in the VW's kicks butt and has the highest pressure of any diesel system.. 2050 bar. I have not heard any big problems with it either. The break even between a unit injector and common rail is after 4 cylinders, so the unit injectors will stay with the pass. cars. It would be cool to see a big V8 motor with all unit injectors! It would kick butt.
[ 01-27-2005, 01:41 PM: Message edited by: whoz ]
DmaxMaverick
01-27-2005, 14:07
Whoz
The Powerstroke Diesel engines (Ford) have used the unit injector system (HEUI) for many years. It is different than a fuel pressure only system , as they use an engine oil pressure system that activates the fuel side of the unit injector. A reliable system, but they have their drawbacks, too.
Excellent discussion with some very good info. Thanks for your input!
The Bosch unit injectors are driven off a camshaft with a roller. The roller works on a high pressure piston compressing the fuel and it has a solenoid to control the opening timing. It is like having a one cylinder high pressure pump integrated in each injector. The Bosch UI's are fuel lubricated but can require a weep hole under vacuum at the end of the cylinder to keep the blow by fuel from mixing with the engine oil.
Bosch has some really great technical primers on most of their diesel products. Maybe I scan some stuff if there are any diesel tech freaks here.
I purchased an excellent text book from the SAE last February. It was written by Bosch and is titled Diesel Engine Management, Systems and Components. Anyone who is interested in reading about the diffenent fuel injection systems,how they are controlled, how emissions interact with these systems plus a whole lot more would be advised to purchase the text book. There is a whole chapter dedicated to the High Pressure Common Rail systems by Bosch.
Whoz,
Has Bosch and DMAX Limited worked out all the issues with the DMAX injectors or are they still tweaking the material processes (even in 2005)?
With regard to cost cutting on each vehicle, when a manufacture can save $500 per vehicle and they produce 500,000 units (as they do with the GM trucks), these savings can add up. It is a little frustrating like you mention when the sticker price of the vehicle is $40K and the manufacture is going cheap on us. I would rather pay $41K and have the best quality. Maybe someday they will catch on.
My 2004.5 D/A is going up for sale next week.
It has 10,800 miles and already a headache.
Never buy Chevy again.
I've had 2 and both were lemons.
Good riddens.
Sure, I'm gonna take a beating but not like I would after 36K miles is up.
Hi OC_DMAX,
As far as I know of the generation 1 injector materials and processes have been stable since the beginning of 2002. The measures taken should provide the specified durability and fatigue strength.
I do not know much about the generation 2 results. Generation two should have been a less expensive injector with more accurate injection quantities.
The latest design, generation 3, is a 1800 bar system with a slightly different steel alloy for the body and elimination of the phosphate coating. There is still a surface treatment for corrosion protection but it is proprietary and was chosen because it was friendly to the steel.
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