Fuel Additives and NSBU Addressed in GM Tech Link

[OC_DMAX]

The use of fuel additives and the Neutral Start Backup Switch are discussed in the April addition of GM Tech Link. On the fuel additives, they seem to be changing the language to "not recommended or required, but if you want to use it...."

http://service.gm.com/gmtechlink/images/issues/cnt_mo/TLcme.html

[mackin]

Interesting .....

Contrary to what is said here they recommend Demulsifiers as oppose to Emulsifiers..... Rut row .... :eek:

In addition read on about Tech 3 => 'At present, the Tech 2 replacement isn't even in spec form yet'...
So was we getting our leg pulled or what .....??


MAC

:eek: :eek: :eek:

[FirstDiesel]

Sorta sounds like they assume emulsifiers are alcohol based though. Could be part of the reason they don't like them??

[Spoolin'It]

This is why they don't recommend an emulsifier...

"Emulsification can allow water to get past the fuel filter/water separator, in most cases causing damage to the fuel system." :eek:

[FirstDiesel]

But on the other hand CAT is experimenting with deliberatly adding quantites of emulsified water in the fuel. As long as it stays emulsified it's not likely to be a problem.

[Spoolin'It]

key word "experimenting", many experiments never leave R&D labs......

GM was pretty clear in stating NOT to use an emulsifier since almost every paragraph in that bulletin ends in "..it should not contain alcohol or OTHER water emulsifiers.."

[george morrison]

Ahh, if it were a perfect world.. In my 30 or so years of dealing with diesel engines ranging from simple single cylinder to huge V16's that produced thousands of horsepower, my one consistent problem has been water in diesel fuel: free water.. Free water has caused me to authorize more repair invoices for fuel pumps, injector units and fuel injectors than I care to remember. It was only after the discovery of the process of 'emulsification' that my repair invoice authorization for water related failures, ended. The GM tech data sheet is parroting the fuel system recommendations; Racor puts a water separator in the system. However, as every single 'before and after' fuel analysis performed not only on this site but also the Ford PSD, VW TDI, etc. as shown the water separator to have absolutely no affect on entrained water levels. So, by not 'locking up' entrained water chemically, we are playing Russian Roulette with the possibility of free water settle anywhere in our fuel system.
Fuel system corrosion is the #1 single cause of fuel system warranty rejects in both the Duramax and 6.5TD series. Caused by water.
If one uses a fuel additive (which everyone does, by the way, as nearly all pump diesel fuel is 'treated' in some fashion, especially in winter)which combines water emulsion/disperson, corrosion prevention, lubricity enhancement, detergency and cetane boost, and eliminates Russian Roulette from the program, it would seem to be a no brainer.
A dealer CAN detect corrosion in a fuel system that has failed. A dealer cannot detect anything in a fuel system that is operating perfectly.
And at a treatment rate of 1 OUNCE of additive per tankful, well.....
George

[ 04-13-2003: Message edited by: george morrison ]</p>

[Dmaxenvy]

george morrison:

"Fuel system corrosion is the #1 single cause of fuel system warranty rejects in both the Duramax and 6.5TD series. Caused by water."

Ok, I am a newbie to diesel engines, so I know very little. Please be patient with me if I ask dumb questions...

"Warranty rejects" as in rejection of a warranty claim due to water in fuel, or as in a warranty repair? And out of curiosity, is this data avialable somewhere, or is this a culmination of professional experience?

What is the deal with repeated warnings about alcohol in the additives? I would assume alcohol to be bad for diesel engines from the statements in this bulliten, bad assumption?

I am trying to be careful about where I get my fuel, but growing up here I have in the past bought gas with lots of water and needed an additive to dry out the fuel system (happened with a motorcycle...and that REALLY sucked and a chevy luv, both at same station that sold LOTS of gas). So I expect sooner or later it will happen with a tank of diesel. Just want to make sure I am doing the right thing with additives...

[ 04-13-2003: Message edited by: Dmaxenvy ]</p>

[More Power]

Just as our (TDP's) recommendation that only CG4, CH4 or CI4 API certified motor oil be used during the warranty period, following GM's recommendation for other fluids, lubricants and/or fuel treatments could help prevent any related warranty complication.

MP

[ 04-16-2003: Message edited by: More Power ]</p>

[mackin]

I have followed the recommendations here on using an Emulsifiers as oppose to a Demulsifiers and I for one aren't getting the results I should, so I believe..... I seem to still get water separating .....

My dilemma;

I was using Total Power all winter long..... I got a real bad load of diesel fuel (see PICS) so I was to believe.....I discovered this at about a quarter tank left at a filter change..... I had to fill up as I needed to be some where the next day very early.....

I tripled up on Total Power additive with this tank full....Ran it out....On the advice here I was told to run Fuel Power, same brand, better concentration for water Emulsifiers,made total sence....So I fueled up again and dumped nearly a whole bottle in ..... :eek: I figured when this tank was empty I would change filter again....

I ran this tank out nearly empty again..... I fueled up again with premium as last time...Went back to Total Power with a mix of Cetane boost as I have always ran.... Accumulated mileage approx. 900 .....

Truck never skipped a beat the whole time... I wasn't going to change the filter but I said what the hay....

So I did .....Diesel fuel looked OK, and low and behold there were water droplets in the bottom of the filter ..... It didn't have the rust colored goo yet, but it was early change....Filter was dirty perhaps quarter inch up media.....
:confused:

I'm really starting to wonder here, which way to turn ..... As was it really a bad tank or just an accumulation of water ..... One thing for sure the Racor seems to pull water out well .....

MAC

[Kennedy]

Mack,

Take a jar with an oz of water and add an oz of Fuel Power and tell me what you get. If you want, I can send you the field demo kit. Also works when added with diesel. If you have THAT much water in your fuel, you have problem fuel...


Water seperators are NOT 100% efficient, and when that water gets through, I want an emulsifying additive protecting me. What gets through will settle in the system and wreak havoc like little gremilns! :eek:


One of my contacts who is doing common rail testing/repairs has stated that of the 3 warranty pumps that he has procured for dissection, they all had pitting from water. Good thing we have a waterseperator :rolleyes:


Even with the water stripping media of my Mega filter, I still emulsify...

[mackin]

I've seen that test .... Really looks like it works ... I just don't understand seeing rain drop size droplets in canister, still ...

If I got a bad tank full or two not knowingly, if I hadn't changed my filter I wouldn't have know due to no poor running symptoms, either the total power works or the filter pulls water .....

I'm No stranger to water in fuel....My 98 (6.5) got a bad tank once I was ready to drive it off a cliff .... I couldn't drive 5 miles at a time without WIF illumination and stuttering stalling rough running issues.... They were no picnic to clear filter housing either .... The Duramax is a breeze in comparison to fuel filter..... I'll keep up the water maintenance .....I was just surprised to see what I did yesterday.... Maybe I just have to drive over bumpier roads for that shake shake .... ;)

MAC

[Lone Eagle]

I finally found a local supplier for Total Power. All they have is Delux. I bought a couple bottles to try. What is the recommended dosage? Later! Lone Eagle

[george morrison]

If one encounters a real 'slug' of water, neither FPPF nor Primrose has enough emulsifying action to control water in excessive amounts. The regular use of an emulsifying fuel additive will minimize free water formation/damage in normal to slightly above normal water contents. i.e. that which is found in every gallon of diesel fuel we buy. By not tying up free water in normal water level diesel, we expose our fuel system to the possibility of corrosion/accelerated wear/injector damage just from the normal run of fuel. Plus the possibiliity of bacteria/algae growth from the free water..
Now for the slug. If we encounter a severely contaminated fuel, with free water, even with emulsifying additization, the water in excess of the fuel's saturation point will be 'free' and can indeed be seperated by our OEM fuel separator, to a fair degree. However, due to the vehicle's movement, even over saturated fuel will put free water back into loose emulsion...
Thus, always using a high quality emulsifying fuel additive provides constant protection for every gallon of fuel we use; the normal water containing fuel... Plus, system lubricity enhancement, bacterial prevention (bacteristatic, as no free water, no bacteria), corrosion protection, detergency and cetane boost. All at one ounce per tankful... Regarding the old adage, "an ounce of prevention"......
George

[ 04-17-2003: Message edited by: george morrison ]</p>

[a bear]

George,
Does Primrose or FPPF carry a non winter use line. I don't think I'll ever see the cloud point of #2 where I live and would probably benefit from more of the other components. :confused:

[george morrison]

The Primrose 405 fuel addtive is for year round diesel fuel treatment. Primrose 409 is 405 with pour point depressant/winter operation additization.
George

[ 04-17-2003: Message edited by: george morrison ]</p>

[Kennedy]

I run the FPPF Total Power year round. While it does have some winter oriented properties, it will not hurt you, and if you see a sudden climate change you are covered. While FPPF does have some summer based additives, they are either not competitively priced, or incomplete, so Total Power stands as the best choice.