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csimo
01-14-2003, 09:48
Another user (NoMo) made an interesting statement about Amsoil in another thread that caused me to do additional investigation. Thanks to NoMo for putting me on this trail. Please follow me on this logic because it's important.

Amsoil makes four motor oils they claim are for use in Diesel engines. Three are fully synthetic (30 weight, 5W-30, and 15W-40) and one is a synthetic blend (15W-40). Let's forget about the 30 weight oil and the synthetic blend oil for this conversation, and we'll concentrate on the fully synthetic oils that some here are using.

I will post verbatim from some sections of the 2002 Duramax Diesel Supplement page 6-18 which is titled "What Kind of Engine Oil to Use". Next to a graphic of the API service doughnut is the following statement: "This donught-shaped logo (symbol) is used on most oil containers to help you select the correct oil. It means that the oil has been certified by the American Petroleum Institute. You should look for this on the oil container, and use only those oils that display the logo." There is also a NOTICE that says "If you use oils that don't have one of these designations either CH-4 or CG-4, you can cause engine damage which is not covered by your warranty." You can read it yourself in your own manual for verification.

These are clear statements! Use only the proper API Certified oil or your warranty won't cover any damage.

I called the American Petroleum Institute to find out if Amsoil fully synthetic diesel oil is API approved (I talked to Kathy in the Motor Oils Division). I was told that Amsoil has been issued API License Number 0995 but that DOES NOT cover any of their multi-grade fully synthetic diesel oils. NoMo pointed out that the Amsoil does not carry the API starburst or donught-shaped logo.

Amsoil fully synthetic diesel oils are not API approved and are not approved for the use in your Duramax. API told me that all oils submitted for certification are tested by both their labs and an independent lab before a license for certification is granted. They would not tell me if Amsoil has submitted their oils and they failed, or if they have never submitted their oils for testing.

Amsoil claims that their synthetic diesel oils are "Recommended for Applications Requiring the Following Specifications:" and list various API ratings, but that is not the same a being API Certified, and not approved for the Duramax. They are telling you that you should beleive them that it meets API specifications, but we really don't know if it does or not. We do know it's not Certified as such. The only API Certified engine oils listed under the Amsoil license are the XL-7500 and PCO (synthetic blend) motor oils.

I asked about various fully synthetic diesel oils that ARE API Certified. They told me of many, but the one that stood out was issued API License Number 0022... Mobil Delvac 1. Treat your engine right and use the right oil.

I do not work for any engine oil manufacturer, and I do not sell any kind of motor oil. I did spend about 15 years in management in the automotive manufacturing industry. I have known some of the best automotive engineers in the world and I know that most of what they do is for a reason.

BROKERS
01-14-2003, 10:20
That's an eye opener! The Amsoil guys are gona freak over this .I'm real surprised.Excellent investigation ! :eek:

TraceF
01-14-2003, 10:36
It has been said over and over in many of these forums that much of Amsoil's fame is attributed to unsubstantiated claims.

woundedbear
01-14-2003, 12:09
csimo,

I believe that you have just dealt the last straw on many of the members' backs here, including my own. Amsoil Series 3000 5W-30 Heavy Duty Diesel Oil may very well be able to achieve API certification, but in not doing so and claiming to use it in applications that call for API ratings is, IMHO, irresponsible. I will be discontinuing my use of this product in my Duramax.

Thanks for the enlightening post. :(

Greg, any comments?

Dmaxin
01-14-2003, 12:57
Looks like i will be switching to Mobil Delvac. Thanks for the information.

AzKevin
01-14-2003, 13:01
Wonder how Mobil Delvac I does when radiator coolant is introduced. I recall MP mentioning Amsoil lost it's properties.

HDLD
01-14-2003, 13:16
Just coming up on my 2nd change where I will be converting to synthetic. After reading the various threads the past few weeks, I decided to play it safe and go with Red Line 15W40 instead of the Amsoil 5W30. Anyone know where to buy this stuff cheap?

hdmax(mike)
01-14-2003, 13:28
I am about to order Amsoil series 300 heavy duty motor oil, But after reading this. I will be holding off a few days to find out the total scoop on all of this. If it turns out to be true, Mobil Delvac 1 here I come.

NoMo
01-14-2003, 14:19
WOW! That's some serious research csimo.

Was involved in a similar discussion almost 2 years ago and got several reasons (excuses) from various dealers why Amsoil isn't API certified. It'd be nice to hear something official from the Amsoil company itself.

TraceF
01-14-2003, 17:52
Looks like a clean sweep for Mobil!

Kennedy
01-14-2003, 18:38
This is a puzzler as to why they have not gone for this certification. In the recent: From The President's Desk, A.J. Amatuzo is quoted as saying: "Before Amsoil, there was no API rated synthetic motor oil"

Food for thought anyhow...

Toddster
01-14-2003, 18:44
Mackin, thanx to Toddster ! LOL ! Dude, you leave me out of everything ! ;)

Trippin
01-14-2003, 18:56
Hey guys,
My personal experience with Amsoil was in 1986 when I was racing Jet skis. They claimed their 2 stroke oil was so good you could mix it at 100:1 instead of 40:1 and the motor would make all kinds of power and live forever etc. I started conservative at 40:1, just to see. The result was a seized piston. I wasn't sure it was the oil, could have been any number of things. I rebuilt the motor and having the mental capacity of a lima bean continued to run the Amsoil. Result, another seized piston. I started talking to some of the factory race mechanics and they told me they had all experienced the same thing. I know it is an unrelated application and 17 years ago but for me Amsoil is not an option for anything.

[ 01-14-2003: Message edited by: Trippin ]</p>

KompressorMan
01-14-2003, 19:36
I think I can tell you what it comes down to, Economics. Face it, in the grand scheme of things, Amsoil is a minute player in the oil business. It costs a GREAT deal of money to obtain the API rating. It can't be done accross the board, in other words, each product in the line would have to apply for the designation. The rating is very expensive and you'd have to sell a lot to make it pay.
In the compressor business, we represent a company that is a giant in the synthetic industry. Not only do they sell their on brand, they private label for a lot of the big boys. I have been using their synthetic motor oil for 15 years with phenomenal results. Is their oil API rated, heck no!!! Is it any good, None better. If you like Amsoil and have had good results with it, wait till after the warranty and load up. Would I use it, probably not. Or at least not while I can still buy the "other" stuff at wholesale.
Good Luck
Herb smile.gif

csimo
01-14-2003, 20:16
Here is more info. from API. Please note that these pages may take a long time to load.

The actual license between Amsoil and API is here:
http://www.api.org/cgi-bin/eolcs_li.cgi?k=767

All API Certified CH-4 diesel oils:
http://www.api.org/cgi-bin/eolcs_li.cgi?c=CH%2D4


All API Certified CI-4 diesel oils:
http://www.api.org/cgi-bin/eolcs_li.cgi?c=CI%2D4

You can also note that there are some very, very small compaines that have API Certified motor oils. Some much smaller than Amsoil I'm sure. Here is a list of some of the smaller companies that did bother to get certified (I am not recommending any of them, but just posting some random names that appear to be very small compainies).

CAM2 OIL PRODUCTS, New Britain, PA 18901
CENTURY LUBRICANTS COMPANY, Kansas City, KS 66111
COASTAL UNILUBE, INC, Memphis, TN 38103
CONKLIN COMPANY INC, Shakopee, MN 55379
DAVID WEBER OIL COMPANY, Carlstadt, NJ 07072
DENNIS OIL COMPANY, Springfield, MO 65802
HYDROTEX, Carrollton, TX 75006
LUBRICANTS USA, Plano, TX 75075
LUBRICATING SPECIALITIES COMPANY, Pico Rivera, CA 90660
MCCOLLISTER & COMPANY, Council Bluffs, IA 51503
PINNACLE OIL INC, Indianapolis, IN 46268
ROYAL PURPLE, LTD., Porter, TX 77365
SCHAEFFER MANUFACTURING COMPANY, St. Louis, MO 63104
SCOT LUBRICANTS OF PENNSYLVANIA, Allentown, PA 18109
TOP OIL PRODUCTS COMPANY, Burlingame, CA 94010

And many others. Why did they bother to get their products API Certified and Amsoil didn't?

a bear
01-14-2003, 20:20
Hey Gang,
Over the last few years I've been running regular (Dino) oil meeting the CI spec. in my engines and change it at recommended intervals with excellent results.
The Reason: Myself and a few others were witnesses to a Royal Purple demo that consisted of a bearing running off of an electric motor that was measuring amp draw while submerged in different oils @different loads. To make a long story short this demo(sales pitch)showed the Royal Purple Synthetic products to be superior to all. After selling us on these oils I switched my truck over to them and encountered the following.
1. My engine started using large amounts of oil.
2. The RP 85w90 manual transmission oil was performing so bad that I could hardly shift gears.
3. After about 30000 miles a winding sound developed in the rear end. After draining this oil it was about the color of neverseize. (My fault for not changing out the oil earlier)Although the 1st 2 problems were corrected by changing oils, the last wasn't.

I have been hearing good reports about the Mobil Delvac I and have been tempted to try it, but I'm not sure I would be able to shake that haunting gut feeling. I hope I'm not missing out on a quality product because of my past experience.

Replies would be welcomed and appreciated.

a bear
01-14-2003, 20:26
Correction - Just started with the NEW CI-4 spec.

NoMo
01-14-2003, 20:40
KompressorMan brought up one of the most common reasons/excuses from the previous discussion in which I was involved.

The "cost" argument doesn't make sense to me. Why would a company certify some products and not others- especially when the non-certified ones are arguably their most popular? Seems irresponsible to risk losing sales (because of a thread like this) by spending the money to certify a straight 30W and not the 15W-40 used by every light-duty diesel on the road.

csimo
01-14-2003, 20:58
ndamico, the link you posted is to Amsoil's API Certification License #0995. It clearly shows that the ONLY diesel oil made by Amsoil that is API Certified is their PCO synthetic BLEND oil. None of their fully synthetic diesel oils are API Certified (and yes there are others that are).

I'm also sorry to hear that Amsoil tried to mislead you. If you look at the API links I posted you will see several synthetic diesel oils that are API Certified. As for the Amsoil statement that no

NWDmax
01-14-2003, 21:02
I'm waiting for Greg's reply.
This is gonna hurt!

csimo
01-14-2003, 21:15
I don't know Greg, but I'm sure he is a great guy. He's just one of a huge number of people that are taken in by Amsoil. Amsoil has a very slick way of producing sales literature that appears to be of value on the surface, but falls apart under investigation.

Beware of any company that claims that every one of their products is the very best in the world. I'm sure that some of the Amsoil products are very good but it's difficult to tell which ones when they put out deceptive information on the rest of their products.

I'm not on a crusade against Amsoil, but I do want to make sure that the truth is available for people to make their own decisions.

NoMo
01-14-2003, 21:18
csimo is correct in his technical evaluation of the facts. Amsoil attempts to purposely mislead it's customers. :mad:

Furthermore, the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act will NOT protect you when using products that do not meet the manufacturer's specifications.

This leads back to my question in the other thread- Has anyone personally or even know someone who has successfully made a claim against Amsoil's corporate warranty?

GMCTRUCK
01-14-2003, 21:33
The Amsoil folk remind me of a brainwashed "cult". Ever notice how Amsoil reminds you of Amway? I've personally never used it other than my air filter but, I have seen many snow mobiles blow up while running Amsoil. I certainly wouldn't use it if it doesn't have official certification no matter how many notes from their mothers the Amsoil gang shows me.

Bigwheel
01-14-2003, 22:35
Not To confuse or mislead, but I got this from morepower:

Hi Chad,

The Amsoil marine 15W-40 synthetic carries the CG-4 API engine oil rating.
Any API rated oil of CG-4 or CH-4 is prefectly acceptable for your diesel
engine, and warranties cannot be voided because of brand - as long as they
carry the right API rating.

Visit the American Petroleum Institute web site to learn more about engine
oil ratings.

The following link contains more info about the tick.

http://www.thedieselpage.com/duramax/durafaq.htm

Jim


TheDieselPage.com
Jim Bigley

How was I told this, and I'm reading something different??, Are we on the same page here???
:eek: :confused: :mad: :rolleyes:

Jelisfc
01-14-2003, 23:21
NoMo, I agree with Kompressorman's comment about not certifying due to cost. This has nothing to do with Amsoil just the economics of smaller companies trying to play with the big boys as best as they can. My work is in a similar situation. We already have a product certified and the next generation has proven to be better but until the governing body approves it there's no cert. In some cases being in the market without a cert is better than nothing at all.

I know this will make those of you who change their synthetic at 3000 miles pucker but I'm going to run extended drain intervals on dino oil. My motto, run it till it breaks then you know exactly what's wrong smile.gif smile.gif smile.gif

thechevyhdman
01-15-2003, 02:23
I hate to be egotistical about this and I too took alot of BS from other people when I formally took a stand against Scamsoil at the Gm diesel page. I knew from day one that this company was not all it was cracked up to be. I made sure 100 percent I told people what I thought. And what did It get me. I got booted from GM diesel overnight. Bam wham see ya later.
I still get the Amsoil monthly articles and I wish I kept them because this was really the "icing on the cake" It went over how good there oil was and yada yada yada. It went on to formally quote verbatim, engineers from GM, Dodge, and Ford. Saying that synthetics were good for engines. However Amsoil cut and chopped those engineers statments so much that they conformed the engineers statments to make it look they were personally endorsing SCAMS-OIL, They were not, and obviously knowing now they were never listed by the API, I dont think any engineer would even consider the oil. I got turned away from Amsoil upon purchasing a 2 stage air filter over a year ago. Mackin remember"My oily couch cushion" From there on in (especially after realizing that the company was structured the way it was"Amway" comes to mind) I had it. I sold my filter for 25 bucks and switched over to K&N. And after being told that my Oil Analysis would have silicon amounts off the scale I came in at 15ppm with Dino oil that had 7500 miles on it. Well within the range for the amount of miles on my oil. I knew that one day everyone would see the company for what it was like I did. And Im glad now people do. So ok , now they are API certified on one type of oil. Would you trust this company now after you been using it so long, without even knowing it was never recognized by the API. Hell No. You have to be ally cat smart in todays age, I will stick with what I been using for 3 years now. Citgo Citguard 500. plain ol' dino oil. Ive got an oil analysis waiting to be sent now. I will post my results when they come back. Bill
"Sometimes its hard to tell the cockels from the wheat"

jbplock
01-15-2003, 06:32
Here is a link to some more discussion on this topic.

AMSOIL position on API Licensing:

http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=001127#000002

TraceF
01-15-2003, 06:58
Amsoil's failure to get an API rating for a specific product is not an economic issue.

I am familiar with several of the independent blenders listed on csimo's post.

Most don't realize that base stocks come from only a handfull of suppliers, PAO's come from even a smaller pool of source. The same is true for additives.

Any independent can buy both and blend a lubricant, this is exactly what some of the companies in csimo's post have done. This is called "Private Labeling".

Regardless of size of the blender, quality standard is what is required to meet an API rating. This isn't a one sample certification. Many companies fail initially because they can't meet the standard consistently.

It is possible that this is why Amsoil doesn't have a API rating, also possible this is why API won't difinitively say whether they have tested, and this is why I won't use Amway Oil. I am concerned with the consistency of the blending and packaging process.

elcamino
01-15-2003, 07:42
I am sure this will pi$$ of some but this saved a long tiome ago from another site.


Q. Why aren't all AMSOIL motor oils API licensed

A. Good question. AMSOIL staffers have recently read some message boards with misinformation regarding this issue. Let us address API licensing in depth, as well as the issue of warranties. Some AMSOIL motor oils are API licensed, some are not. If you're concerned about your warranty and feel pressures to use an API licensed oil, even after reading this answer, then the 5W-30 (XLF) or 10W-30 (XLT) XL-7500 or our 15W-40 (PCO) API licensed oils should be your choice. If you are looking for an alternative to frequent oil changes or just want the best performing oil for your car, then one of our top tier non-API licensed synthetic oils are for you. Read on, and decide for yourself.

API Licensing - Passenger Cars - What is it?

An API (American Petroleum Institute) license indicates that a specific motor oil formulation has passed the minimum performance standards as defined by a series of laboratory bench, physical, chemical and engine tests. These tests were selected and minimum performance standards were set by the API Lubricants Committee to address specific areas such as engine wear, deposits, fuel economy, emissions, etc. The committee is comprised of representatives from automobile, oil and additive companies. The current specification is SJ/GF-2, and in July 2001 the first use of SL/GF-3 will begin.

Costs

The cost for running a test program for a single passenger car motor oil formulation is from $125,000 to $300,000, depending on if the formula passes the tests the first time through or requires multiple test runs or formula modifications to achieve a passing average. (That amount goes to $275,000 to $500,000 for a Heavy Duty Diesel licensing program on a specific formula.) Once that testing is complete and the formula has passed all of the minimum requirements, it can be licensed for $825 per year for non-members and $625 per year for members. There is also a small royalty fee per gallon sold for all gallons over one million. The length of time between new specifications is now approximately 2 to 3 years, which does not allow a great deal of time to recover testing costs.

Who Licenses What Formulas?

Additive companies, such as Lubrizol, Ethyl,, Infinium and Oronite, develop licensed formulas that they offer to oil companies to re-license. It is inexpensive to re-license one of these formulas, and the majority of oil companies choose to do this to avoid the costs associated with testing. This, however, tends to commoditize the market. The same chemistry is being sold under many brand names. Most of the major oil companies do have their own proprietary formulas developed, tested and licensed. All of AMSOIL INC.'s lubricant formulas are unique and proprietary.

Flexibility In Manufacturing An API Licensed Formula

API licensing was originally developed for mineral based oils, and it affords these oils more flexibility than synthetic oils.

Mineral oils comprised of group I and Group II petroleum basestocks may use a simple program called basestock interchange for added flexibility in manufacturing and purchasing. Interchange means that by completing the proper paperwork and running a few minor engine tests an oil company can choose to buy these petroleum basestocks from many different suppliers. This ensures adequate supply and competitive pricing. However, basestock interchange for Group III and V synthetic basestocks is not allowed. For example, if a formula was tested with an ester (Group V) basestock from a specific supplier, then anyone blending that formula must buy only that supplier's ester. Complete engine testing would need to be performed on the formula using another supplier's ester before an oil company could buy it from that alternative supplier. This additional testing is normally not performed because of the associated costs. This inflexibility makes it very difficult for synthetic lubricant manufacturers to negotiate prices with synthetic basestock suppliers.

There is also something called viscosity grade read-across. Fortunately, this applies to both petroleum and synthetic basestocks although the better cold temperature performance of synthetics makes it more difficult to achieve in some situations. (That's another whole story.) What this means is that if you properly formulate the lubricant for which you have run all of the API tests, there are guidelines that allow you to use that same formula to make 0W-30, 5W-30, 10W-30, etc. viscosity motor oil.

Finally, there is a rule for substitutions in the CMA (Chemical Manufacturers Association) code of practice that allows a small degree of flexibility for all formulas. It allows a company to change the percentages of components in the formula by varying amounts from the original formula with limited testing and paperwork requirements. For example, if the licensed formula used 10% of a certain V.I. improver, you would have the ability to utilize from 9% to 11% of the same V.I. improver for your formula.

Key Limitations For API Licensed Formulas

Phosphorous content - .10% maximum
(API SL; 0W-20, 5W-20, 0W-30, 5W-30, 10W-30 viscosity grades, only)

NOACK volatility - 15% maximum



The prevalent sources of phosphorous in motor oils are additives called zinc dithiophosphates (ZDTPs). Currently, these versatile additives act as oxidation/corrosion inhibitors and aid in the ability of a lubricant to reduce wear. The automobile manufacturers, however, have demanded that lubricants contain a maximum of only .10% phosphorous. Their reason is that some manufacturers believe that higher phosphorous content levels will poison the catalytic converters on their cars before they reach 150,000 miles, which is the number of miles that their vehicles will be required to pass EPA emission standards. There has not been total agreement within the automotive and lubrication industry about whether phosphorous levels over .10% actually do harm catalytic converters in the long run. What they have failed to make allowances for is the NOACK volatility of an oil.

The maximum allowable NOACK volatility percentage for the new SL/GF-3 passenger car motor oil specification is 15%. Most of AMSOIL motor oils are in the 5% to 8% NOACK volatility range. Studies have shown there is a correlation between NOACK volatility, oil consumption and the amount of phosphorous from motor oil that will end up in the exhaust gasses. Therefore, oils with higher levels of phosphorous but with low volatility, such as AMSOIL motor oils, present no more risk to catalytic converters than low phosphorous oils with higher NOACK volatility. This has also been demonstrated for years in actual application through state mandated exhaust gas testing on our Dealers' and customers' high mileage vehicles using AMSOIL synthetic motor oils. State inspectors are continually amazed at the low emissions levels generated by vehicles using AMSOIL products. So much for poisoning catalytic converters.

AMSOIL INC. has determined that the reduced wear and extended drain intervals achievable with phosphorous levels higher than the API limit of .10% are real benefits for the consumer, and pose no risk to catalytic converters. AMSOIL motor oils, except for the API licensed XL-7500 5W-30 and 10W-30 viscosity grades, all have greater than .10% phosphorous levels, and therefore, cannot be API licensed.

Why Some AMSOIL Synthetic Motor Oils Are API Licensed And Some Are Not

1. Full API licensing puts AMSOIL INC. in an inflexible position. Not only would we find it necessary to buy formula components from specific vendors and be at the mercy of their pricing, we would not be able to make any major improvements to the lubricant formulas for 2 to 3 years, without new testing and the associated costs. To solve this problem, the API must establish basestock interchange guidelines for synthetic basestocks just as they have for other basestocks, as well as develop interchange guidelines for other components too.

2. Full API licensing would impose strict phosphorous limitations on our motor oils. This limitation is the main reason most AMSOIL motor oils are not API licensed. AMSOIL INC. currently disagrees with this limitation and feels strongly that the reduced wear and longer oil and additive life achieved through higher levels of properly balanced phosphorous content is more important than the arbitrary API phosphorous limit that does not give any consideration to the NOACK volatility level of an oil. When chemistry is developed that will provide superior engine wear protection with reduced phosphorous levels, or Noack volatility considerations are put in place, then the phosphorous level will become a non-issue.

Warranties And API Licensed Motor Oils

Fortunately, the law does not allow manufacturers to "void your warranty" simply because of the brand of oil you use, the specifications it meets or the miles you drive between oil changes. To be specific, they cannot deny to fix your broken radio, faulty valve or cracked piston because you used an AMSOIL non-API licensed motor oil, or because you've gone more than 3000 miles since your last oil change. Denial of warranty coverage must be specifically due to an oil related failure. All courts of law will find against any manufacturer or dealership that tries these warranty shenanigans. If any automobile dealership insinuates that your warranty will be void if you use AMSOIL products or utilize extended drain intervals, let AMSOIL INC. know the name of the Dealership, the address, the owner's name and the name of the employee that made this statement. Mail to:

AMSOIL INC.
Attention: Technical Services Department
AMSOIL Building
Superior, WI 54880

or e-mail to tech@amsoil.com.

They will almost never put it in writing, but if they do, please send us a copy of that, too. Either way, we will send them a letter informing them cease the intimidation of our customers.

Only if the oil is determined to be the direct cause of the engine problem can a manufacturer or dealership deny warranty coverage for that specific problem. In this situation the AMSOIL warranty would apply, and the AMSOIL Technical Services Department would assist you in processing your claim and in getting the vehicle repaired. That's our pledge to you. AMSOIL INC. sells millions of gallons of oil per year and warranty claims are a rare occurrence. If you ever have a warranty problem with an automobile manufacturer or dealership, AMSOIL will assist you by analyzing the problem and providing data supporting the fact that repairs should be made under the vehicle manufacturer's warranty. If this does not resolve the problem, AMSOIL will submit a claim with our insurance company and request that an adjuster have the vehicle repaired and pursue legal settlement later if necessary. The fact is there never has been an engine failure attributed to the non-performance of AMSOIL products, and we do not expect there ever will be. If it ever did, both AMSOIL and our insurance company would make certain your problem was resolved.

How Does AMSOIL INC. Ensure Their Products Meet Or Exceed The Minimum Specifications Of The Tests Required For API Licensing?

First, AMSOIL INC. works closely with major additive companies to select the top performing, and usually most expensive, passenger car and heavy duty diesel motor oil additives. These additives have already passed all of the API licensing requirements in a petroleum or synthetic based formulation. Then we work with the additive company to maximize the amount of additive used and to boost the additive package in selected performance areas to achieve an optimum performing additive package for reduced wear and extended drain intervals. This is unlike the vast majority of companies who, because additives are expensive, use the minimum amount of the least expensive additives required to meet the minimum API requirements.

We then utilize a blend of synthetic basestocks with known performance characteristics as a replacement for the petroleum basestocks to optimize performance in areas of lubricity, volatility, viscosity index, oxidation and nitration resistance, pour points, flash points, deposit control, soot handling, emissions, etc. We also will utilize a highly shear stable V.I. improver to ensure viscosity retention throughout extended drain intervals. This replaces the inexpensive and less shear stable V.I. improver used in the API licensed petroleum formula. We do laboratory bench tests before running field tests to verify the superiority of the synthetic formula in actual use. We also continue to monitor the performance of the oil through close scrutiny of tens of thousands of oil analysis tests per year across a wide variety of vehicles all around North America and the World. AMSOIL INC. has been collecting used synthetic oil samples from passenger cars since 1982. No other oil company has such a vast data base of the performance of synthetic lubricants over extended drain intervals.

AMSOIL INC.'s products and formulations outperform API licensed oils. They're engineered that way. Period.

Conclusion

AMSOIL INC. takes pride in never having conformed to industry norms or standards when those standards are contrary to peak performance. We introduced synthetics to the automotive world in 1972 with the first synthetic motor oil to exceed API performance specifications. At that time other manufacturers refused to recognize the superior performance of synthetic motor oils. Now, however, most companies sell synthetic lubricants, vehicles are factory filled with synthetic motor oils and gear lubes, and some manufacturers even offer extended warranties if you use synthetics. AMSOIL has always offered extended drain intervals because the oil was capable of performing for extended drains, and it was the right thing to do for the consumer. Now the entire industry is moving in that direction. Ironically, it was recently published that automotive manufacturers will be recommending extended drain intervals of up to 15,000 miles in the near future because that's what consumers want.

AMSOIL is a company of firsts. That doesn't happen by always conforming to industry norms and standards.

API licensing of lubricants is voluntary, and it ensures automobile manufacturers and consumers that the product meets a set of minimum standards. Should these standards, in the future, be raised to a level consistent with AMSOIL's standards for motor oil performance, AMSOIL will consider licensing all oils. For those that feel pressured to use an API licensed product, we have them and encourage you to use them (XLT, XLF and PCO). AMSOIL does offer better performing motor oils that are not API licensed for all of the reasons explained in this response. They provide our customers with alternatives to the commodity products typically available in the market today. If you want the convenience of extended drain intervals or the top performance from your vehicle, AMSOIL has taken time to engineer the very best money can buy.





[ 01-15-2003: Message edited by: elcamino ]</p>

BOOMERHD
01-15-2003, 08:06
I switched last change to DELVAC all around. Where are the AMSOIL guys we used to hear from? "A good DEFENSE is your best offense".

Boomerhd :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

DmaxMaverick
01-15-2003, 08:35
All y'all (that means everybody) that feel like they have a need to grab a torch and hunt down the witch should do so immediately! Don't let yourself be left out because someone yells witchery! That the way we do it......over 300 years ago!

Not being one to just blindly "follow the crowd", I am not satisfied with one person's UNINFORMED OPINION. Or that of the band wagon jumpers, for that matter. I find no credibility in the claims made, that satisfies my requirements for a "witch hunt".

The API's Licensee database is expansive, and misleading if taken out of context. I found several Amsoil motor oil products, both gas and Diesel rated, listed as an APPROVED (read--CERTIFIED) Licensee. I did not find a Diesel rated Amsoil 5w-30 oil. All other Amsoil motor oils (listed on their online store, or the catalog I have in my possession) are there. They (API) list Amsoil 5w-30/SL as approved.

Amsoil lists a "Synthetic 5w-30 motor oil" AND a "Series 3000 Heavy Duty Diesel 5w-30 motor oil". The claims of service applications are different between the two, and they have different part numbers. The former (Synthetic 5w-30)) is in no way, ever, represented as an approved or recommended Diesel engine oil.

Could it be possible that the API Licensee listing is not showing the product in question for reasons other that what has been alleged? Perhaps the list was last updated the day before the Series 3000 5w-30 was approved. We could come up with dozens of reasons, using the same method of deduction that has been used to claim that they are in violation of the API licensing requirements, as well of several US commercialization laws. I could not find any FACTS that would PROVE otherwise. Do all of you also burn products that are labeled "patent pending"?

The API Certification Requirements clearly state that a certified product MAY display the symbols, and that all products that display the symbols are approved by API. Nowhere does it imply (that I could find) that the symbol(s) MUST be displayed on a product. I understand that to mean that a product that displays the symbol(s) are approved, and products that are approved may/may not display the symbol(s). I fail to see how it could be more complicated than that. None of the Amsoil motor oil products that I have in my possession at this time have an API symbol. All of them do state that they exceed the API requirements of their advertised application, including the Fully Synthetic 15w-40 Heavy Duty Diesel and Marine oil, and Fully Synthetic 10w-30 Motor Oil. Their reason for not displaying the symbol when they can is curios, but doesn't make any kind of statement. Any statement perceived is just that. Perceived.

I use Amsoil products, almost exclusively. I will continue to do so until I see some real proof that it is an inferior product. I am not saying that any other product is inferior to Amsoil. Just that it is my choice.

Amsoil, or any agent of Amsoil, does not, in any way, compensate me for supporting or defending their product or interests. My interest in their products is purely personal.

Anyone in this day and age that would open this thread in such a manner, in my opinion, is in very poor taste. Not to mention openining a real possibility of some legal responsibility. This forum is a copyrighted, published public publication.

It would not surprise me one bit if this entire thread is closed or sensored before I even click the "Add Reply" button. The start of the thread is not only in contrast with the rules of the forum, that all of us should have read when we signed up, but could be a serious legal liability to the publisher (MP).

I am very dissapointed with what I have read from many of the valuable contributors on this forum. Juvenile, for the lack of a better term.

I'm done. Dunk me. Burn me at the stake. Whatever.

csimo
01-15-2003, 08:44
Just want to address a couple of points made in this discussion. First to Bigwheel regarding Jim Bigley's comment. Amsoil does CLAIM that their marine 15W40 fully synthetic oil exceeds several API ratings, but it is not CERTIFIED as such. You are just taking Amsoil's word for it. API is not saying that it meets any rating... only Amsoil. Big difference! Anybody could sell a motor oil that CLAIMS to meet API CH-4 rating, but they better not sell it as API Certified.

Next for elcamino... I'm glad you posted the information from Amsoil. The only problem is that it's full of holes. More doublespeak (I wish I had the time to discect the entire column... maybe later). One of the most creative excuses I've ever read is the Amsoil statement that their oil wouldn't be as good if it met API Certification requirements. This statement would be more correctly worded as "our fully synthetic diesel oils do not meet API Certification requirements".

You Diesel Supplement makes it clear that you are required to use API Certified oil.

Another couple of statements that Amsoil made are just plain crazy: "Denial of warranty coverage must be specifically due to an oil related failure. All courts of law will find against any manufacturer or dealership that tries these warranty shenanigans." The laws covering manufacturer warranty coverage and exclusions are pretty clear. If you use an aftermarket product that meets or exceeds the manufacturers specification they can not deny warranty coverage. In this case if you used Amsoil you are NOT using a product that meets the manufacturers specifications. You would then be faced with the task of forcing Amsoil to admit their product caused a problem. Good luck. As for the statement about "all courts"... is way out there. I know what happens in court rooms and there is NOTHING that ALL courts would agree on... especially a sitaution like this that would cleary be in favor of the manufacturer. Then you would get the pleasure of suing Amsoil... good luck.

GMC-2002-Dmax
01-15-2003, 08:44
Mac, Bill...........

Soooooooooo Now we find out that Pinochio is doing Amsoils claims.

I'll stick with Dino every 3K miles and my dirt passing K&N Filter too :eek: :D .

Anytime I see claims from a company like Amsoil my guard goes up. I won't knock anybody that wants to use that OIL, but if you go in for a big warranty bill for a blown motor and you have to produce receipts....GOOD LUCK!!!!!.wait till they check out when they got their oil approved, if they did.

I'll keep letting the Stealer put GM approved oil, filters and there own documented labor in my 43K truck.

My last truck is one that is still on the road at over 15 years old and over 313,000 miles. Thanks to Dino oil and K&N air filter. :eek:

GMC ;)

[ 01-15-2003: Message edited by: GMC-2002-Dmax ]</p>

DmaxMaverick
01-15-2003, 08:59
Quote (in part):
"Amsoil does CLAIM that their marine 15W40 fully synthetic oil exceeds several API ratings, but it is not CERTIFIED as such. You are just taking Amsoil's word for it. API is not saying that it meets any rating... only Amsoil. Big difference! Anybody could sell a motor oil that CLAIMS to meet API CH-4 rating, but they better not sell it as API Certified."

The API website lists several Amsoil engine oils as being Approved/Certified. One of which is Amsoil 15w-40 Heavy Duty Desiel and Marine Motor Oil.

It's there. Don't take my word for it. If you did your research, as you claim, you would have found it, as I did. Not difficult. Just a little time consuming. It is listed in every category that pertains to its claimed properties.

http://www.api.org/cgi-bin/eolcs.cgi

Like I said. Don't take my word for it.

csimo
01-15-2003, 09:24
DmaxMaverick... not to be crude, but you must be dreaming! As I posted before, Amsoil has ONLY two oils API Certified: Their XL-7500 products and the PCO synthetic BLEND diesel oil.

I have verified this on their web site and via telephone. Amsoil has no certifications pending as of yesterday.

Want to prove it to yourself? Here ya go:

Every API Certified product containing "Amsoil":
http://www.api.org/cgi-bin/eolcs_li.cgi?o=C&b=Amsoil

Every API Certified product containing "marine":
http://www.api.org/cgi-bin/eolcs_li.cgi?o=C&b=marine

No matches for the product you claimed. Could you post the exact URL where you found your listing?

[ 01-15-2003: Message edited by: csimo ]</p>

Bigwheel
01-15-2003, 09:39
MOREPOWER ANY SUGGESTIONS?????

CSIMO...You have made a really good point, thanks for investigating this to a T, I was at the stealer last week for a check-up, everything was great. just turned 5,000 miles, and I asked about other Synthetic oils, bended or not blended. I asked about Amsoil, they said, not really sure because they don't want to say if it's ok or not. I agree with your point about the CERTIFIED point, they only point I wanted to mention, even if it's not Certified, the oil has to be determined the cause of the defect, meaning any oil brand name, weather it's clasifications, it still has to be found to be oil related. You have found some great stuff on Amsoil, and I commend you on your effort and work, it's getting too confusing and Frustrating WHO'S RIGHT and WHO's WRONG. Who sign's my warranty check when I have a mechaincal problem. The manual does specify API CERTIFIED oil. Thanks :rolleyes: :confused:

jbplock
01-15-2003, 09:56
DmaxMaverick,

Just to clarify

More Power
01-15-2003, 10:59
I checked a gallon jug of Amsoil Marine 15W-40 Synthetic I have on hand, and saw the following declaration on the label.

"API Service
CG-4 CF CF-2 SJ SH"

There was no API certification symbol that I could find.

I assumed Amsoil Series 3000 5W-30 and the Marine 15W-40 synthetics were API certified.

Otherwise, I would request that everyone post reliable and verifiable information. It does no one any good otherwise. Just the facts….

I will make the offer to Amsoil (the corporation or any dealer who advertises here) to offer a rebuttal. We could also produce an editorial that adds information about this issue, if it would be of service to both the industry and the consumers.

MP

elcamino
01-15-2003, 12:05
Next for elcamino... I'm glad you posted the information from Amsoil. The only problem is that it's full of holes. More doublespeak (I wish I had the time to discect the entire column... maybe later). One of the most creative excuses I've ever read is the Amsoil statement that their oil wouldn't be as good if it met API Certification requirements. This statement would be more correctly worded as "our fully synthetic diesel oils do not meet API Certification requirements".


I doubt anything they (or anyone else) says or did would convince you, you have formed an opinion and you are not going to budge.

Just don't use the product, it that simple in this is an issue. I don't think you have to take on the mission of instructing all of us in how to maintain our vehicles.

Make sure that everything else on your truck is safe from having your warranty voided. No oversize tires, computer chips, after market exhaust, jake brakes, etc.

btw
I am proud to admit I have used Amsoil since 1975 in every new GM vehicle I have ever owned and its in the 2 vehicles listed below and its not the API oil, 0W30 and 10W-30 in LS1. I have never had an engine problem in any GM vehicle since my first new car, a 1970 Chevelle SS454 (LS5).

NoMo
01-15-2003, 12:23
Just so everyone doesn't have to surf all over the web for some of the info being discussed, the following information was obtained from links given previously-
http://www.api.org/cgi-bin/eolcs_li.cgi?k=767 (csimo)
http://www.api.org/cgi-bin/eolcs_li.cgi?n=amsoil (ndamico)
http://www.api.org/cgi-bin/eolcs.cgi (DmaxMaverick)

&gt;&gt;&gt; All links will get you (eventually) to the same API web page!!

Amsoil has these products that are licensed to use the API Service Symbol (aka donut):
AMSOIL PCO 15W-40 CI-4/SL
AMSOIL XL-7500 10W-30 SL*
AMSOIL XL-7500 10W-40 SL
AMSOIL XL-7500 5W-20 SL*
AMSOIL XL-7500 5W-30 SL*
*Energy Conserving

Amsoil has these products that are licensed to use the API Certification Mark (aka starburst):
AMSOIL XL-7500 10W-30
AMSOIL XL-7500 5W-20
AMSOIL XL-7500 5W-30

***
*****
The following is my observation and is NOT to be considered to be derived from the above API resources!!
*****
***
Since I don't have any actual product to view, I went to Amsoil's website (www.amsoil.com) and looked at the photos they supply of their product containers. Unfortunately, they re-used the 5W-30 photo for the 5W-20 and 10W-30 links, so it's impossible for me to comment on those two weights. But the 5W-30 container does have the API "starburst" printed on the front label. I also viewed the PCO 15W-40 container. It has the API "donut" printed on the front label. I noted that PCO is the Amsoil product code for the synthetic blend 15W-40 diesel oil.

While there, I viewed the photos of the full synthetic HD diesel oil containers. None displayed either the service symbol (donut) or the certification mark (starburst).

Finally, I couldn't help but notice that most of the NON-LICENSED products had some kind of "circular" pattern similar in shape & size to the API licensing donut &/or starburst. Inside these circles were the API certifications that the product claims to meet or exceed. I know we are supposed to keep this factual, but I find this to be a deliberate attempt at deception. If one were to only glance at these product labels, you could mistakenly believe they are API licensed when they are not.

MountainMax
01-15-2003, 12:30
Gentlemen: Let cool heads prevail. This is turning into an emotional knee-jerk reaction by some that could be very damaging to what is possibly a superior product and company. I personally have never used the product. I have seen what misinterpreted, heresay or biased information can do to a reputation, professional or personal. For example: "When did you stop beating your wife" It infers the individual has beaten his wife. Damage done. Once the damage is done , it's alot harder to undo. Imagine people posting the threads here on other boards. I could spread like wildfire.

Amsoil's argument has some logic to it. If you wanted to create a superior product, a company image ("goodwill" in business terms) and reputation around the product, you would have to see what is out there and then raise the bar in terms of quality and performance. The problem is that to get some type of certification you have to stay within certain perameters that would make your product no better than the rest. You believe the perameters to be based on old science or flawed science. So now you have to decide; Do I take a risk and color outside the lines, think outside the box. Or, Take the risk of not being certified and building a better product, or just conform. Thats not America and its not the pioneer spirit that got us here. Nor is it what we want. Obviously Amsoil chose the former.

Many times information changes. The FDA food pyramid is about to be turned on it's head. The medical community is starting to accept the notion that cholesterol levels are more affected by carbohydrate consumption than by fat consumption. But if you were mandated to provide a "healthy" meal as a business, what's healthy today maybe unhealthy tommorow.

Please use restraint until all the facts are in and digested by informed knowledgable people before peoples businesses and lives are affected negatively. What if the assumptions here are wrong? What if it truly is a superior oil? What if their reasons for not being certified are legitimate? Lets take a big breath before we rush to judgement. Again, its always harder to undo damage once done.

Csimo: Not flaming ya dude. But you seem a little emotional about the issue. To me this doesn't seem to be an objective stand. It could appear to some you might have an agenda. Your topic could have read: Amsoil's oil not certified. And then stated your research (which by the way is comendable)and opened up the topic for discussion. Instead you chose: Do NOT use Amsoil..
This is pretty strong language and infers that you have reached your conclusion the jury verdict is in an Amsoil has no rebuttal you will consider.

[ 01-15-2003: Message edited by: MountainMax ]</p>

RealBigTruck
01-15-2003, 13:27
I just went down to my local Monument to check on Redline 15W40 synthetic. It, as well, does not have API certification.

I trust Redline products and use them exclusively throughout my racecar. In my opinion, it is the best stuff around.

However, none of it will be put in my Duramax engine while it is still under warranty. There are other excellent products available (Mobil Delvac 1 for example) that provide superior characteristics to dino oil without voiding the warranty.

The manual clearly states that only API certified oil should be used in the crank. Why risk your warranty for a product that may be only marginally better than the best API certified products?

Bigwheel
01-15-2003, 13:40
Nicely Put MountainMax!
I just called Amsoil, and they are Pi--ed!!, very upset, they are working on a re-buttal as we speak. This is a confusing point, in the users manual, it says look for these two things: CH-4 or CG-4, which 15W-40 marine has these on the bottle, and look for the logo on the can, it's not there. that's why this was confusing to a 'newbie' as where does the "literal" classification fall. The stealer says no, Amsoil says yes. I'm sticking with Amsoil, they have never burned down a motor, to the 6 people I know that have used it for 15 years.
:cool: :rolleyes:

[ 01-15-2003: Message edited by: Bigwheel ]</p>

MountainMax
01-15-2003, 13:52
Csimo:
I've been doing a little forensic internet surfing.

Are You the same "Csimo" that posted a similar thread on www.TDIclub.com that got it quite stirred up a couple of months ago?

By the way, did I thank you for your unbiased and objective opinions on Amsoil? I appreciate you enlightening me to this great fraud which is being perpetrated. Now I just have to determine who the real fraud is.

NoMo
01-15-2003, 15:16
I do agree that this thread could use a different title. smile.gif

Regardless, the FACTS (not assumptions) remain.

1. GM waranty requires that the motor oil carry the API service mark.

2. Amsoil 15W-40 full synthetic (for diesels) does not carry the API service mark.

3. Amsoil 5W-30 full synthetic (for diesels) does not carry the API service mark.

4. Amsoil 15W-40 synthetic blend (for diesels) does carry the required API service mark.

The people at Amsoil can get as :mad: as they want about the truth being discussed. If they don't like the truth, perhaps they should change things.

Honestly, my suggestion is that if you are concerned about your warranty and want to use Amsoil, stick with their API certified 15W-40 synthetic blend. Once your warranty has expired, change to whatever product you like. :D