Need help with Boost/EGT gauge

[a64pilot]

I am getting boost/EGT gauges this week. I have pretty much decided on the SPA-111, unless there is something better.
I have decided to mount it in the overhead console like some of you have and have several questions.
1. Is there a thermocouple available for the SPA that will allow me to clamp into the exh. pipe or do I have to weld in a bung. I don't want to mount in the manifold if I can avoid it.
2. What is the best way to run the wireing and hose into the console. I was thinking up the A pillar, but I dont know if the bottom of it is accessable or even how it is removed.
I appreciate your opinions on this as I am pretty good at basic mechanics, but pretty inept at interior work.


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2001 C3500 LT Charcoal Grey
CC/Longbed Putco boss boards,
virtual grill,mudflaps,sill protectors Rhino liner,
bug deflector. Looking into Boost/EGT gague

[mdrag]

a64pilot,

My SPA DG-111 came with a threaded adapter for the exhaust probe - IIRC 1/8" NPT that would screw into the manifold, and a compression fitting on the other side to hold the probe in position.

I drilled and tapped the thinner pipe just rear of the manifold and was surprised it held. I then drilled a hole in a stainless steel band clamp so it would fit over the adapter compression threads before inserting the probe and assembling the compression fitting. So I have both threads and band clamp.

You can call SPA and get a clamp type probe mount - I don't know the cost.

If I was doing it over, I would drill the manifold in the same place as hoot. I was just too chicken to try at that time. Others have posted great suggestions to drill the exhaust manifold with the engine running, or after pressurizing the exhaust with compressed air.

Sorry, I haven't messed with the pillar or overhead console mounting so I don't have any ideas. http://www.62-65-dieselpage.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

On Edit: Here is a pic of where hoot mounted his EGT probe - mine is mounted on the other side of the flange in the elbow before the ribbed section (pass side):

http://www.uscom.com/~hoot/cars/duramax/gmc/egt/egt2.jpg

www.uscom.com/~hoot/cars/duramax/gmc/egt/egt2.jpg (http://www.uscom.com/~hoot/cars/duramax/gmc/egt/egt2.jpg)


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mdrag
========================
'01 3500 "BIG DOOLEY" DMAX/ALLISON PICTURES (http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/view?username=mdrag)<UL TYPE=SQUARE><LI>2001 3500 LT Crew Cab/LB7 DMAX 6600/M74 Allison 1000 Series/4x4 G80/Light Pewter/Tan Leather<LI>12 Disc CD Changer/Escalade Steering Wheel Audio Controls/Pioneer TS-C1653 Component Speakers <LI>Kennedy Diesel Headlight Harness with 4 Lamp Mode/Dual Alts with PowerMaster 200A<LI>TransferFlow 56 gal tank w/Fast Fill fillneck/ROSTRA Obstacle Sensing System<LI>Roll-N-Lock Retractable Bed Cover with Carbon Fiber Pattern/TracRac Sliding Rack System<LI>Clifford AvantGaurd4 Alarm with Remote Start/SmartWindows4/Computer Interface for MS Windows/Turbo Timer Option<LI>SPA DG-111 Digital Boost & EGT Gauge/PIAA Airdam/PIAA 80 Pro XT Driving & 959 Fog Lights<LI>DTA Corp Running Boards & Mudflaps/Line-X/Invinca-Shield/Center Console Mods<LI>Lucerix X-Mount Mirrors/Tekonsha Prodigy/Goodrich Velvet-Ride Shackles<LI>Future Mods Include: Alcoas, Performance Module.... etc.
[/list]

[This message has been edited by mdrag (edited 01-05-2002).]

[Nels]

I used a dual A-pillar mount on mine. The factory A-pillar cover just snaps off. Get you fingers under one edge and pull. From there to the overhead you are on your own. I don't know.

[a64pilot]

Nels and mdrag,
Thanks. mdrag why would you prefer the manifold ? I wanted to go in the pipe to get an average of all four cylinders temps and not just mostly the one at the port you drill into.
Or maybe on reflection, is the exh. flow high enough that you get an avg. anyway ?
http://www.plauder-smilies.com/thinkerg.gif

------------------
2001 C3500 LT Charcoal Grey
CC/Longbed Putco boss boards,
virtual grill,mudflaps,sill protectors Rhino liner,
bug deflector. Looking into Boost/EGT gague

[hoot]

Drilling and tapping the manifold is a piece of cake and in my opinion, the best place for it. Drill it with a small drill first, engine running so the pressure blows the chips out in your face while drilling. Then go with the tap drill. Some diesel fuel, kero or tapping fluid helps alot and is almost necessary when tapping.

BTW: With my thermocouple there I seem to get the highest readings of anybody. I have been up to 1300.

------------------
Mike (dmax) DP Member #2429
2001 2500HD GMC Duramax/Allison Summit White CC/SB Loaded
Amsoil Air Filter
PS2K Propane, 22 Gal. LP Tank PIC (http://onramp.uscom.com/~hoot/cars/duramax/gmc/propane/bigtank1.jpg)
Straight Piped PIC (http://uscom.com/~hoot/cars/duramax/gmc/exhaust/jvn03.jpg)
Allison Deep Pan, Transynd Syn ATF PIC (http://uscom.com/~hoot/cars/duramax/gmc/allison/allis10.jpg)
SPA DG-111 Boost/EGT, Nordskog Digital Fuel Level PIC (http://uscom.com/~hoot/cars/duramax/gmc/allison/allis11.jpg)
VentShades, Husky Mudflaps, 255/85-R16 Dunlop Radial Rover RV's
Headlight Booster Kit from Kennedy Diesel (http://www.kennedydiesel.com)
TRUCK PICTURES CLICK HERE (http://onramp.uscom.com/~hoot/cars/duramax/gmc)
1994 K1500 Blazer 350 Loaded, Flowmaster duals

[mdrag]

a64pilot,

The manifold location will give the most accurate reading and it will be a really secure attachment. I can tell if there is even a minimal load on the engine during idle - the EGT's will be up 10-20 degrees at idle if the A/C is switched on, and will immediately fall when switched off. A heavy load on the alt causes the same thing (4 lamp HBs).

Post turbo temps will be 100s of degrees lower so you have to keep that in mind when comparing EGT numbers.

One advantage of the post turbo location is that it may give you a better idea of when the turbo temp has cooled enough to shut down. It would be nice to have at least 1 probe in each manifold and 1 post turbo....but since I'm only putting in 1 probe - the exhaust manifold is/was my preferred choice.

BTW, I feel the PS had better exposure after removing the plastic inner fenders on both sides - but the DS is not that much more difficult. Since I was planning to possibly add a band clamp to reinforce the probe mount, I wanted as much exposure as possible.

I've seen some of hoot's EGT numbers in prior posts and mine have been very similar to his. My MAX EGT is now 1203* F (prior 1186) - but I've not driven it really hard up any significant hills or towed yet. Hoot also is running Barbie Q gas - I'm not - but that could lower EGTs to a point.

I was also wondering about the probe sampling the temp from only 1 cylinder - but I think the rearward location he used would minimize this effect and you should get a good average of the four cylinders on that side. My 02 1/2. http://www.62-65-dieselpage.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

------------------

mdrag
========================
'01 3500 "BIG DOOLEY" DMAX/ALLISON PICTURES (http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/view?username=mdrag)<UL TYPE=SQUARE>
<LI>2001 3500 LT Crew Cab/LB7 DMAX 6600/M74 Allison 1000 Series/4x4 G80/Light Pewter/Tan Leather
<LI>12 Disc CD Changer/Escalade Steering Wheel Audio Controls/Pioneer TS-C1653 Component Speakers
<LI>Kennedy Diesel Headlight Harness with 4 Lamp Mode/Dual Alts with PowerMaster 200A
<LI>TransferFlow 56 gal tank w/Fast Fill fillneck/ROSTRA Obstacle Sensing System
<LI>Roll-N-Lock Retractable Bed Cover with Carbon Fiber Pattern/TracRac Sliding Rack System
<LI>Clifford AvantGaurd4 Alarm with Remote Start/SmartWindows4/Computer Interface for MS Windows/Turbo Timer Option
<LI>SPA DG-111 Digital Boost & EGT Gauge/PIAA Airdam/PIAA 80 Pro XT Driving & 959 Fog Lights
<LI>DTA Corp Running Boards & Mudflaps/Line-X/Invinca-Shield/Center Console Mods
<LI>Lucerix X-Mount Mirrors/Tekonsha Prodigy/Goodrich Velvet-Ride Shackles
<LI>Future Mods Include: Alcoas, Performance Module.... etc.
[/list]

[hoot]

mdrag,

1300 is obtainable but you have to be on it hard up a hill for a long stretch.

With one probe, where I have it should be the place to be. It's the tail end of the entire bank. Some race cars have eight probes, one at each cylinder. We are just keeping a good eye on the general temps. I don't see any need to measure both sides.

If you really want to, all you have to do is add another probe and a switch.

------------------
Mike (dmax) DP Member #2429
2001 2500HD GMC Duramax/Allison Summit White CC/SB Loaded
Amsoil Air Filter
PS2K Propane, 22 Gal. LP Tank PIC (http://onramp.uscom.com/~hoot/cars/duramax/gmc/propane/bigtank1.jpg)
Straight Piped PIC (http://uscom.com/~hoot/cars/duramax/gmc/exhaust/jvn03.jpg)
Allison Deep Pan, Transynd Syn ATF PIC (http://uscom.com/~hoot/cars/duramax/gmc/allison/allis10.jpg)
SPA DG-111 Boost/EGT, Nordskog Digital Fuel Level PIC (http://uscom.com/~hoot/cars/duramax/gmc/allison/allis11.jpg)
VentShades, Husky Mudflaps, 255/85-R16 Dunlop Radial Rover RV's
Headlight Booster Kit from Kennedy Diesel (http://www.kennedydiesel.com)
TRUCK PICTURES CLICK HERE (http://onramp.uscom.com/~hoot/cars/duramax/gmc)
1994 K1500 Blazer 350 Loaded, Flowmaster duals

[mdrag]

hoot,

I'm not sure I want to win the "prize" for the highest EGT obtained in a DMAX http://www.62-65-dieselpage.com/ubb/wink.gif http://www.62-65-dieselpage.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

One EGT reading is enough for me.

------------------

mdrag
========================
'01 3500 "BIG DOOLEY" DMAX/ALLISON PICTURES (http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/view?username=mdrag)<UL TYPE=SQUARE>
<LI>2001 3500 LT Crew Cab/LB7 DMAX 6600/M74 Allison 1000 Series/4x4 G80/Light Pewter/Tan Leather
<LI>12 Disc CD Changer/Escalade Steering Wheel Audio Controls/Pioneer TS-C1653 Component Speakers
<LI>Kennedy Diesel Headlight Harness with 4 Lamp Mode/Dual Alts with PowerMaster 200A
<LI>TransferFlow 56 gal tank w/Fast Fill fillneck/ROSTRA Obstacle Sensing System
<LI>Roll-N-Lock Retractable Bed Cover with Carbon Fiber Pattern/TracRac Sliding Rack System
<LI>Clifford AvantGaurd4 Alarm with Remote Start/SmartWindows4/Computer Interface for MS Windows/Turbo Timer Option
<LI>SPA DG-111 Digital Boost & EGT Gauge/PIAA Airdam/PIAA 80 Pro XT Driving & 959 Fog Lights
<LI>DTA Corp Running Boards & Mudflaps/Line-X/Invinca-Shield/Center Console Mods
<LI>Lucerix X-Mount Mirrors/Tekonsha Prodigy/Goodrich Velvet-Ride Shackles
<LI>Future Mods Include: Alcoas, Performance Module.... etc.
[/list]

[hoot]

I don't believe I have the prize, just one of the few that is getting a reading at the manifold and telling what it is.

------------------
Mike (dmax) DP Member #2429
2001 2500HD GMC Duramax/Allison Summit White CC/SB Loaded
Amsoil Air Filter
PS2K Propane, 22 Gal. LP Tank PIC (http://onramp.uscom.com/~hoot/cars/duramax/gmc/propane/bigtank1.jpg)
Straight Piped PIC (http://uscom.com/~hoot/cars/duramax/gmc/exhaust/jvn03.jpg)
Allison Deep Pan, Transynd Syn ATF PIC (http://uscom.com/~hoot/cars/duramax/gmc/allison/allis10.jpg)
SPA DG-111 Boost/EGT, Nordskog Digital Fuel Level PIC (http://uscom.com/~hoot/cars/duramax/gmc/allison/allis11.jpg)
VentShades, Husky Mudflaps, 255/85-R16 Dunlop Radial Rover RV's
Headlight Booster Kit from Kennedy Diesel (http://www.kennedydiesel.com)
TRUCK PICTURES CLICK HERE (http://onramp.uscom.com/~hoot/cars/duramax/gmc)
1994 K1500 Blazer 350 Loaded, Flowmaster duals

[mdrag]

hoot,


I don't believe I have the prize, just one of the few that is getting a reading at the manifold and telling what it is.

...and gauges capable of recalling the the MAX EGT whenever it might occur... http://www.62-65-dieselpage.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

------------------

mdrag
========================
'01 3500 "BIG DOOLEY" DMAX/ALLISON PICTURES (http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/view?username=mdrag)<UL TYPE=SQUARE>
<LI>2001 3500 LT Crew Cab/LB7 DMAX 6600/M74 Allison 1000 Series/4x4 G80/Light Pewter/Tan Leather
<LI>12 Disc CD Changer/Escalade Steering Wheel Audio Controls/Pioneer TS-C1653 Component Speakers
<LI>Kennedy Diesel Headlight Harness with 4 Lamp Mode/Dual Alts with PowerMaster 200A
<LI>TransferFlow 56 gal tank w/Fast Fill fillneck/ROSTRA Obstacle Sensing System
<LI>Roll-N-Lock Retractable Bed Cover with Carbon Fiber Pattern/TracRac Sliding Rack System
<LI>Clifford AvantGaurd4 Alarm with Remote Start/SmartWindows4/Computer Interface for MS Windows/Turbo Timer Option
<LI>SPA DG-111 Digital Boost & EGT Gauge/PIAA Airdam/PIAA 80 Pro XT Driving & 959 Fog Lights
<LI>DTA Corp Running Boards & Mudflaps/Line-X/Invinca-Shield/Center Console Mods
<LI>Lucerix X-Mount Mirrors/Tekonsha Prodigy/Goodrich Velvet-Ride Shackles
<LI>Future Mods Include: Alcoas, Performance Module.... etc.
[/list]

[SoCalDMAX]

A64pilot,

I also have the SPA DG-111 as well as the DG-101 (oil temp and press.) I love the accuracy and resolution of the SPA gauges. As for mounting the EGT sensor, I mounted mine on the PS manifold, just 1/4" to the right of where Hoot mounted his.

After seeing his install and following his directions to run the engine to blow the chips out, it was a piece of cake. It took me longer to borrow the 1/8" NPT tap than it did to remove the wheel well liner, drill the hole and tap it.

I slid the compression fitting up the probe and put a gentle 90* bend in the probe so that it was fully inserted into the exhaust when tightened. I wanted the fastest/most accurate readings possible.

Highest EGT so far has been 1265* with Power plug on 80hp and pedal floored doing 95mph up a fairly steep hill (and everyone vanishing rapidly in the mirror.)

The boost sensor must be grounded with a wire if not installed into grounded metal. A lot of people cut the boost wastegate hose and install a tee. The cable is pretty long, so no need to run hose into the cab. Make sure to zero it in the menu upon first use.

The a-pillar cover can be removed by grasping it at the top and pulling outward and up, there is only one clip at the top, the bottom is just wedged between dashboard and windshield. The overhead console is held by one screw and pulls easily off of the 2 remaining clips. Use a fish tape or stiff wire to bring the cables from console to the a pillar, run the wires thru to under the dash down by the left side. I drilled a 1-1/4" hole (smaller would also work) in the firewall up and to the right of the gas pedal in a location where there is a hole in the insulation. Used a big grommet and neoprene pipe insulation to keep things watertight, etc.

I also took your advice and moved my oil temp/pressure sensors. Oil pressure is now teed off of the stock sender (and indicates 20psi higher than stock gauge when cold, 10psi lower than stock gauge when hot.) Oil temp is in the oil filter mount, much closer to oil flow than previously, now indicating 165-175*, much more believeable.

It's easy, took longer to type this than it wil take you to do it.

Regards, Steve

------------------
'02 2500HD 2WD LS, grey, CC, SB, D/A, locking diff., alloys, trailer and towing pkg. Delivered 11/09/01
So far:
Bully Dog Max Power Plug, pillar mounted SPA Boost/EGT/oil press./temp gauges, CD/MP3 player, 4-6.5" component speakers, 2-10" subs,1200W of Visonik audio power, Valentine One, Invinca-shield, Bed X-tender, Line-X, Lucerix mirrors, DeeZee running boards, PIAA headlights, Husky flaps, Fumoto valve and tinted windows
Up next:
PS2000 propane, 4" exhaust, 255/85 tires, high idle, Jordan 2020 Ultima brake controller, Power Tailgate Lock, Allison deep sump, tranny oil temp., rear diff. oil temp., Mag-Hytech diff. cover, Spare fuel tank?

[PEANUTGRWR]

A64PILOT, AFTER ALL OF THIS DISCUSSION AND WANTING MY AUTOMETER GUAGE POD THEN DECIDING YOU DONT THAT YOU ARE GLAD THAT YOU DECIDED ON THE SPA GUAGE??? http://www.62-65-dieselpage.com/ubb/smile.gif http://www.62-65-dieselpage.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

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'01 CHEVY D/A REG CAB 4X4 PROPANE INJ. KIX A$$ ON PSD'S 2- GMC '01'S D/A REG CABS 4X4'S

[a64pilot]

Everyone,
Thanks I will mount the probe where hoot advises. The pictures sure are nice, maybe someday the Wife will let me have a digital camera also.
Steve, in particular thanks for the knowledge on how to remove the A pillar and run the wires. I live in fear of busting something.
Peanut, the wife was the deciding factor of what gauge and where. The A pillar mount was just a little much for her. Also I believe that the SPA's ability to recall max values should relieve me (somewhat) of the need to watch the gauge when I do bomb the truck.

------------------
2001 C3500 LT Charcoal Grey
CC/Longbed Putco boss boards,
virtual grill,mudflaps,sill protectors Rhino liner,
bug deflector. Looking into Boost/EGT gague

[PEANUTGRWR]

A64, BELIVE ME I UNDERSTAND ON THE WIFE DEAL. I JUST GOT ONE AND DAMN SHE SURE HAS WRECKED MY QUALITY TIME WITH TINKERING WITH THE DMAX http://www.62-65-dieselpage.com/ubb/smile.gif

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'01 CHEVY D/A REG CAB 4X4 PROPANE INJ. KIX A$$ ON PSD'S 2- GMC '01'S D/A REG CABS 4X4'S

[TO THE MAX]

A64PILOT,

I mounted mine in the overhead console. First make sure your wires are long enough to reach that area. Second remove the console. Feed a coat hanger from the console opening the door area. Tape the wires to the hanger and slowly pull it to the door area. Remove the tape and tuck the wires in behind the pillar down the door frame. Remove the fuse box cover so you can reach the wires when they disappear behind the dash and continue to feed the wires to the firewall area. Drill your hole where everyone else has and feed the wires through their. Good luck and just take your time!!!


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GMC 3500 HD LT Pewter
Owens Running Boards, Covercraft truck cover,
K&N air Filter,
Zaino Bros Car Care,
GM Bed Cover,
Vinca-Shield Protectant,
Vent Shades,
ISSPro EGT and Boost
gauges,
picturetrail.com/tothemax (http://www.picturetrail.com/tothemax)

[IndigoDually]

During cooldown, does anybody think that the turbo is holding that much heat compared to the readings that you get from the manifold. With the liquid'cooled(I think) turbo I don't think that there is much of a temperature difference but if anyboby has two probes I would be interested in hearing about the difference.

Question for anybody with the Spa gauges, are the leads supplied with the gauge long enough to reach the overhead console or are they easily extended?



------------------
'02 GMC 3500 Crew/longbed 4x4 (Wife's daily driver)
Indigo blue/Graphite leather/all the toys(you only go around once!)
G/N,Rhino,Western 8 1/2 UltraMount
Kennedy Headlight Upgrade


My work truck:
'95 3500HD 15,000GVW
6.5 T/D 5 speed
chipped and exhaust mods
(with help of Kennedy)
10 1/2' Alum dumping flatbed
GN hitch

'94 K2500 EXT.Cab 6.5/Auto G/N hitch Farm Truck 20,000 mi.

Pictures
www.picturetrail.com/indigodually (http://www.picturetrail.com/indigodually)

[hoot]

I mounted my gauge on the pillar, put the thermocouple in the exhaust manifold on the opposite side of the engine and still had three feet extra lead. You should be more than fine.

------------------
Mike (dmax) DP Member #2429
2001 2500HD GMC Duramax/Allison Summit White CC/SB Loaded
Amsoil Air Filter, Straight Piped PIC (http://uscom.com/~hoot/cars/duramax/gmc/exhaust/jvn03.jpg)
PS2K Propane, 22 Gal. LP Tank PIC (http://onramp.uscom.com/~hoot/cars/duramax/gmc/propane/bigtank1.jpg)
Allison Deep Pan, Transynd Syn ATF PIC (http://uscom.com/~hoot/cars/duramax/gmc/allison/allis10.jpg)
SPA DG-111 Boost/EGT, Nordskog Digital Fuel Level PIC (http://uscom.com/~hoot/cars/duramax/gmc/allison/allis11.jpg)
VentShades, Husky Mudflaps, 255/85-R16 Dunlop Radial Rover RV's
Kennedy Headlight Booster Kit TRUCK PICTURES CLICK HERE (http://onramp.uscom.com/~hoot/cars/duramax/gmc)
1994 K1500 Blazer 350 Loaded, Flowmaster duals

[Nels]

Since indigo brought the point up, I'll tell you what I did. I swapped the EGT probe for another K-type thermocouple with a ring eye for a bolt in it. I mounted it against the casting on the exhaust side of the turbo, using an exsisting threaded hole. This way I am reading the actual temperature of the turbo housing. Temperatures run around 375* in normal driving, but will run over 400* when pulling hard. I have seen 450* on one trip. The resopnse is slower (much), but it serves the purpose I wanted. My main concern was the shutdown temperature of the turbo after working it hard. Once it gets to the 350-375 range I shut it off. It only takes a minute or so in most cases.

I know the bearings are liquid cooled and it may not make a difference, but it is piece of mind. The guage wired in this manner also gives a general indication of how hard I am working the engine when towing, although the response is slower. Since I have no intention of modifying this truck, this method works fine for my purposes. If I were to enter into the chip & bomb realm, I would probe the exaust stream at the manifold.

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Nels

2001 Chev 2500HD DMAX/Allison 4WD x-cab long box, LT trim (Forest green)
GM Fold-A-Cover & Line-X spray in liner, Autometer Boost & EGT, Tekonsha Prodigy controller

See it: My New Duramax HD (http://members.lsol.net/GOP4EVR/unlinked/fullview.jpg)

[Plasticfantastic]

Anybody know the part # for the A-pillar pod mount ?? Two 2 1/16 gauges.

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-------------------------
MEMBER #6086
2001 2500HD CC D/A Onyx/Tan
2001 Z06 Torch red (SOLD!)
2002 Z06 Torch red 405HP!

[2DAMAX]

Part # for the full pillar pod from autometer is #17104.They are on backorder as of 1-10-02.So I ordered mine from BD from Jeff In parts.He was the only one that had it in stock.

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2002 D/A CC S/B
1Pc Drivshaft
Pewter
Rhino lining
285/75/16
Roll-N-Lock Tonneau cover
34 FT Jayco 5th wheel
B D Dynamite box 70HP
Dual Alternator's 260amp

[REC06]

socaldmax,
What port or area did you install the oil temp probe into the oil filter housing

[SoCalDMAX]

REC06,

Welcome to the forum! I have pics of the location if you click on truck pics in the sig.

It's mounted where a 3/8" plug was on the bottom of the mount, very near the filter.

Regards, Steve

[KompressorMan]

&gt;&gt;&gt;maybe someday the Wife will let me have a digital camera also.&lt;&lt;&lt;

Jody,
What the heck's up with this stuff???? You go off and fight the bad guys in Q8 for 6 months and come home a henpecked wussy... Hey, you da man, lets show some spunk here.
Seriously, thanks for the job that you did. I'm sure speaking on behalf of everybody on the forum, we all appreciate you AND your wife for putting up with your sorry a$$ for running off.
My son Chris got home from there mid June and he's also glad to be back. Hey, tell us some war stories and none of that "well, I'd have to Kill you" stuff
Thanks
Herb

smile.gif