View Full Version : MegaFilter Question
I have had a JK MF kit sitting on my shelf for several weeks while I have been following the forum discussions. I hesitate making the post OEM filter installation if it will cause more problems than it will cure. I sure hate to think I'll be getting stalls and needing to bleed air every few hundred miles. Any post MF users having second thoughts?
Smitty
I have the post OEM Mega filter installed and had lots of stall problems. Not really what I expected when I bought the filter to get cleaner fuel. One ongoing experiment with a lift pump seems to resolve the air issue, but will not allow you to get the vehicle back to OEM configuration. This is what the add-on filter concept was based on. I don't want to give the dealer the opportunity to point the finger and void a possible costly warranty claim in the future. Thus I'm waiting to see if JK's experiments on a modified filter head or setup can resolve the issue. Without the filter installed yet, I would wait, until a simple solution is found. If the filter set up only works with the use of a lift pump, I'll return it and go back to stock.
We have seen air in fuel issues with about every different filter configuration from bone stock to the Mega kit. Some have had no air one day and tons the next. Some have had massive air from the start, and whittled it down to very little/none. Just because some haven't encountered the presence of air does NOT mean that it is not there. It is likely just passing through the system. I think we're back to a term I applied to the Dmax early on: "individualistic."
If the suction point and the return point are below fluid level, there are really only 2 ways for air to get into (or out of) the fuel. Either by leakage or outgassing of dissolved air. Could also be both. It could be the push lock fittings, a leak at either filter base/plumbing, OR even from the injection system and it's return lines. I don't think that it is going to be consistent from truck to truck.
I had little/no air to begin with, and now have mild amounts. I have had mine on for in excess of 8,000 miles. I've gone 1000+ miles without bleeding. Last I bled was Friday PM. Ran 360 miles on Saturday, and about 100 on Tuesday. Have yet to have a stall at startup or other.
The lift pump idea is looking more and more like a reality. I'll go on the record here and state that I have no intention of offering a Dmax specific lift pump kit as I really do not want to bear the liability consequences. I will however, be entertaining the possibility of offering a generic lift pump kit with some special fittings to allow a bypass loop like Abear did only with less parts.
BTW, the hose from the tank outlet to the steel line behind the cooler looks like as good a place as any for a lift pump install, and is easily reversible. Just replace the hose ;)
I too wasn't expecting the added filter to get as interesting as it has. However, I'm glad I installed it since it has revealed the air that was in my system. Is this a problem? I think so. I'm (95%) convinced (at least on my truck) that the air is coming from the fuel and not an external leak (although it wont be the first time - or last - I've been wrong). The puzzling thing is that not everyone gets air. Tommy's (a bear) very thorough pressure and vacuum tests at the tank sender connections verified no leaks, yet he still collected air. Chris's tests with clear tubing before he installed his filter revealed air. Blake's vacuum tests of the OEM and MegaFilter connections passed, yet he still collects air. John's tests with his tank removed revealed air. Tommy and Blake also observed out gassing after shutting down the engine. Why do some get air and some do not?
:confused: Seems like this is the $64,000 question.
As for me, I've decided to follow in Tommy's footsteps and install a pressure regulated lift pump set for zero psi at the Schrader valve test port. I'm planning to include a 10 or 30 micron pre-filter in front of the lift pump and the whole setup will be plumbed between the tank sender and the steel fuel line - making it reversible.
smile.gif
[ 05-28-2003: Message edited by: jbplock ]</p>
The filter has only been in use for the past few cool months. I think the air/outgassing issue is somehow connected to temperature. Having followed the installation procedure provided for the relatively simple set-up, it appears that I experienced here in CA more problems, where we had midday desert temperatures just below 100F in the shade, with nights in the 60th. Whatever the solution to the problem, it should provide a fix for the worst temperature scenario, which still ahead of us.
a64pilot
05-28-2003, 10:54
Manfred,
I'd bet money you are right. The higher the temp gets the less "air" the fuel will be able to hold in solution. I just don't think that it is a problem unless it is allowed to accumulate and form a large bubble that is passed on to the fuel pumps etc.
If it is a problem then every diesel fuel system that is not gravity fed or has a boost,(lift), pump has the problem.
Then we have to assume that every manufacturer of diesel fuel systems that use a vacuum to pull fuel through the fuel filter have not discovered that they have a problem while the members of this BB have.
I don't believe anybody using a Racor setup has any stalling or air induced problems, pre or post OEM.
If you want a trouble free setup, go with the Racor. I like using the same manufacturer as the OEM as it is. I do not sell anything nor do I have any vendor preference. Not out to discredit J/K, just laying out the facts.
Maybe J/K should switch to the Racor. .... I mean, why not. We've done all the R&D at no charge! ;)
[ 05-28-2003: Message edited by: hoot ]</p>
SoMnDMAX
05-28-2003, 11:33
I second what jbplock said- I too collect air with a leak free system. So far it hasn't posed a problem. I've been bleeding the filter every two weeks, regardless of miles or amount of fuel used, and get the same amount of air out each time. The problem is not the filter, it's the fuel- as it has been discussed before, the filter must be removing the air from the fuel (out gassing). Five minutes every two weeks to bleed the filter is nothing compared to the time I'll have to spend working to pay for ONE injector.
Now- the $65,000 question- since the 2 micron KD Mega traps air, why doesn't the added Racor 2 micron trap air? Is it that the Racor doesn't filter as fine or as efficiently? Since the factory filter is a 2 micron Racor, why do we need to add a second filter? Hmmm... I personally question the effectiveness of any Racor product. tongue.gif
Flame suit on... :D
HoustonDMax
05-28-2003, 11:41
Short nipple on Mega filter has been giving me a stall right at 175 miles. 40+ pumps before I see fuel using the Mega bleeder. Only took 50+ pumps with the standard length nipple. On my truck at least, something else in the design is trapping air. Other than one stall a year ago when I let the truck sit overnight after running well below the low fuel light level, was not having stalls prior to adding Mega. Have reinstalled all Mega connections, so I feel confident I have added no other air leak sources.
JK, where do you think I could be trapping that large a volume, considering I am now using the short nipple?
I do see quite a bit of air exiting the EDU towards the OEM filter when I pump the bleeder. This tells me the air is entering prior to the post OEM installed Mega. Don't really see a lot of air when the truck is idling, though.
Have not had a chance to try to track down. Heading out of town for 3 weeks, so I will remove the Mega. Will put back after I return and have some time, and will then try to track down the air source.
JK, would you call my work or cell number to discuss further?
Hopefully, will find air source and not have to go with some type of lift pump. Don't want to do anything that can not easily be returned to stock.
Has anyone checked the application on the Mega filter element whether it is suitable for a vacuum application ?? All I've seen is it is used in heavy equipment mining apparatus ....I would think there would be a difference in actual media used ....
Has this ever been posted ??
=>http://www.baldwinfilter.com/engineer/tsb_94-6r.html
Am I playing catch up and all this is old news ?? Sorry if so ....
Mac :confused:
SoMnDMAX,
You run yours and I'll run mine. Don't touch a thing. Call me when you need a tow.
Now what filter system is defective. ;)
Seriously folks, Racor makes quality filters. Show us something that says otherwise. They're a division of Parker/Hannifin which is a world class hydraulics component manufacturer. I don't think they got there selling junk.
I wonder if the OEM filter was spec'd by GM? My generic Racor fuel filter was designed specifically for the gsa/diesel aftermarket and has specific application data and performance specs.
[ 05-28-2003: Message edited by: hoot ]</p>
If Racor was as good as they claim, we wouldn't be adding filters would we now? :rolleyes:
Who spec'd the OEM Racor ?? Bosch,Isuzu or GM ?? Wouldn't you assume Racor was given a spec and objective to fill a window to work in size and location being the biggest obstacles??
Mac
;)
[ 05-28-2003: Message edited by: mackin ]</p>
I don't think that's Racor's fault, do you John?
We seem to have come to the conclusion that a true ablsolute 2 micron filter would clog prematurely. So if the OEM was absolute, it would clog much sooner than 15,000 miles, don't you agree?
I think GM and Racor specifically engineered this filter for the Duramax to be a sad medium between absolute and not clogging. I also think they misjudged the effect it has on the injectors which brings us to this point. Wonder why no other filter fits? Not just that they want the aftermarket $$ but they also don't want people messing with it.
In conclusion....... ;)
We are adding an extra filter to compensate for a possible engineering oversite.
The add on Racor is not a specifically engineered product.
BTW: I trust Racor more than I do you when it comes to understanding fuel systems and I don't take that personally.
[ 05-28-2003: Message edited by: hoot ]</p>
a64pilot
05-28-2003, 13:13
mackin,
If it's old news then I didn't know about it, very informative.
JK, if you don't mind me asking, is the filter head you are using specificially a fuel filter head, or is it a lube or possibly a hydraulic filter head?
Yes. I believe that we would be installing additional filtration if we were filtering down to two microns by any manufacturer. I believe both Cat and Racor recommend against trying to filter to two microns in one filter.
As to Racor being junk, Don't try to sell that to the marine industry and their multi-million dollar yachts or the commercial fisherman either, they won't buy it. Wanna bet that a boat in the ocean and buying fuel from a fuel dock get's dirtier fuel and more water than we do. Don't think those high dollar high performance Cat engines have low tech low pressure injection systems either. Racor is considered to be among the best, many people in the marine field pay a considerable amount of extra money to add Racor filters, they wouldn't do that if they were junk.
And speaking of filter quality, let's not bring up the Baldwin oil filter problems back when we first got our trucks. I remember a comment from a highly respected moderator here that J/K speaks to "almost every day" that basically said no to Baldwin filters.
Houston Dmax, I agree with you, an improved filtering process should not require another slew of electro-mechanical devices and a pressure gauge to verify the lift pump pressure settings.
hoot - If the airlock issues with the Mega filter can not be remedied, I'll be looking at the Racor set-up. Please keep us posted on the performance of your rig.
I have an add-on Racor filter on the F..D and pretty well a similar Racor pre-filter set-up on the boat. Each have performed in So. Cal. and hotter temperatures in Mexico without a problem for years. Even both of the Mercedes diesels have small pre-filters and no lift pump. All four other diesel vehicles I run, I never experienced such airlock problems as with this set-up. That does not mean that the Mega filter set-up is not well made. I don't see anything wrong with it, except that it creates vapor locks, which are not overcome by shortening the nipple as one test shows. Is the size perhaps the problem? The Racor filters I have are much smaller. Grant you, one likely has to change them out more frequently but so what? At about $8 a pop and a selection of filter elements from 2 up to 30 microns, it's not a big deal. Most of us are still on our first Mega filter, I have on mine so far under 1K miles.
I too, have the MF kit sitting on a shelf waiting for a fix. I don't have a problem dealing with the air, but my wife would, don't really want her stuck in some dark parking lot trying to prime this thing.
I am not to keen on the lift pump idea either, I have a lot of warranty miles left. The filter I could probably get by with at the dealer, but an additional pump. I was hoping the short nipple would solve the problem.
In July I will make a decision, short of a miracle, I am leaning to Hoot's setup, so any additional info on that set up would be appreciated. What I have so far with Hoot's set up, is that aren't any issues.
Manfred,
Since your truck is already plumbed, if you invest
less than a $100 bucks you can be doing what
you intended to do...... That is filtering your
fuel down to an absolute 2 micron level.
It is easly to put on that Racor or Cat assembly under
the airbox! None of us who have used the
Racor as secondary filtration have had air problems. I also think the
guys experimenting with CAT as secondary filtration have resolved
any of their air problems.
[ 05-28-2003: Message edited by: 56Nomad ]</p>
If you're thinking a new install for Racor, I'd personally take a good look at Lone Eagle's setup. Having the filter easily accessible makes a change easy for us folks in the colder climates. Before I get flamed, I know the wheel liner is easy to get out, but when its darn cold out and sloppy, I'd rather be standing up and swapping a filter right next to the AC compressor. Just my 2 cents.
After cutting open the stock Racor filter it looks like they sent a baby to do a mans job.
Pictures alone don't show how small the element really is but it looks to be about half the length of the can.
The issue here is not so much a lack of quality but a lack of quantity.
Blake
FirstDiesel
05-28-2003, 18:30
Has anyone thought about the fact that these other filter setups with no air are just letting it pass through just like the OEM system is doing??
If that's the case, it's great that Hoot has no air to bleed but his system is still floating all that air around in there. Is this really the problem some of us are making it out to be?? I don't know, I'm not the diesel expert but it doesn't make me happy to think about it in there.
Not trying to start a filter war here but before I would endorse ANY filter I would have the results of the job the filter is suppose to be doing. I'd like to propose a challenge for the folks who are using the various brand filters to prove the filtration quality by obtaining a fuel analysis from a single non biased DP vender that would perform these. I mean isn't the objective here cleaner fuel. How can someone honestly claim they have the best when they don't know what the fuel looks like coming out the other side. Without facts it becomes nothing more than a childish argument. I can run my fuel through a tin can that would not catch air and say it's not causing problems, but does it provide quality fuel?? The reason I personally did not go with the Racor is because I feel they are trying to get by on name alone while not meeting the fuel quality as specs state. Based on fuel analysis and their filters having literally fallen apart I have lost all faith here as I have for Fram, and yes I have seen several fuel analysis results from these filters. As far as the stanadyne filters that TraceF and Todd are using I cannot comment. Maybe Todd can post the results of the fuel analysis he ran. Remember these are the facts and any thing else falls short. To date there are two filter brands that have desirable particle counts. They just happen to be the ones that are catching the air. I just can't see installing a filter which adds additional vac to the system which is promoting more outgassing in the first place and not know what the measurable benefits are. This is just my opinion based on the facts only so fire away.
56Nomad,
If Racor is claiming a 2 micron absolute rating on your element wouldn't that mean anything larger than 2 microns would not leave the filter.
This is the kind of claims we have seen from Racor in the past. What about that Racor 2 micron OEM? It ain't even close.
I believe "Racor" the forum poster indicated the OEM was a 4 micron (98% efficiency?) filter (2 micron nominal - 50% efficient). If you evaluate the filter test data provided by Avlube for Kennedy and others, it would not appear to meet those specs. Maybe 65 - 70% efficient at 5 micron.
Having said that, Greg L from Lubespecialist has filter test data on the Racor R645 2 micron element (a different fuel filter element than our OEM but similar to Hoot, 56 Nomad, and others). Greg's tests results showed a filter efficiency of 94% on some really dirty diesel fuel. So in a sample of one, it works.
What I have seen posted for the Kennedy mega filter, it along with the OEM provide around a 98% overall filter efficiency. Again, in a sample case of one, it works.
I have seen data posted on the TDIclub page for the CAT filter. A forum member here also has data on his website. The CAT filter has test data showing it provides an efficiency approaching 98%. There are several threads over at tdiclub.com, everyone can evaluate for themselves. So in a couple of test cases, it works.
I have seen no supporting data for the Stanadyne. There were several attempts by a person on this forum to take measurements, but in one case the filter was defective and in another case the sampling technique was in question (?). There still needs to be supporting data for this filter (probably out there somewhere).
So, I would have to say that the Baldwin (Kennedy), Racor (400/600 series filter) and Cat filters all have supporting test data (however crude it might be). These three filters in the test cases do an adequate job of filtering the diesel fuel to the ISO levels mentioned by George Morrison. In the environment used (our trucks), the measurement data for the OEM Racor fuel filter does not support the advertised specs (by poster "Racor") nor filter to the required ISO levels that support long injector life. The performance of the Stanadyne filter is unknown until test data can be supplied.
As for the air in the fuel situation, I'll leave that up to further debate...
[ 05-29-2003: Message edited by: OC_DMAX ]</p>
As far as air is concerned, lets not use a fuel filter as an air "cleaner".
For anybody with real air in fuel problems, that needs to be diagnosed seperately.
For anybody that wants to pull air out of solution and remove it.... I believe that requires a different and much better method that some of the experiments that are going on here.
[ 05-28-2003: Message edited by: hoot ]</p>
Hi Guys,
Hoot you talking about me? If so, the "No to Baldwin" was not because Baldwin made bad filters..
I was speaking about Transmission filters if I'm not mistaken.. Allison has a spec (like all other companies) for each transmission filter.. What was happening was Allison had a spec of say (Don't know the actual spec) of 10 Microns.. Baldwin and others were going to 2 Microns filtration which was cutting the amount of oil to the transmission and would cavitate the pump, and at the very least collapse the filters and the trans would stop... Lower micron is not always better when it comes to filtration..
Racor>> They make some of the VERY best filters on the market today.. If the stock fuel filter on our trucks is inferior, then it's GM/Isuzu Fault.. GM & Isuzu wrote and approved the spec.....
Steve Overcash
"GM & Isuzu wrote and approved the spec"
Thank you ..
Mac
Thats why I feel that each individual case should run an analysis for his/her setup conditions because vibrations,pulse frequency,location,Vac, no vac among others all play a part. I'm not going to buy into a lab conducted test result that was ran under ideal conditions by people that was trying to get the best possible grade for their product and accept the resulting sales pitch. With the money I have spent on this modification I can sure poke out another 25 bucks to see if I am getting the results I desire or if I'm just adding a wide spot in the line. I also agree the air issue should be dealt with separately. Air or no air does not make the element.
SteveO,
Thanks for elaborating on that. You know as well as I do that that was a long time ago and very few here would have remembered that post.
There also was an issue with their oil filters if I remember correctly. I believe a bunch got recalled.
Not that I'm on a mission to discredit Baldwin, I just remember a few negative issues with respect to our trucks. I do see a lot of Baldwin filters on big rigs.
[ 05-28-2003: Message edited by: hoot ]</p>
Well i've put about 1000 miles on my CAT pre-OEM filter with no air problems. if you guys really want to do some analysis results of the various filters, i'll step up and throw my money down to test the CAT. just let me know where we're all going to send it and what to do....
I've been curious about its real-world efficiency anyways.. :D :D :D
"Thats why I feel that each individual case should run an analysis for his/her setup conditions because vibrations,pulse frequency,location,Vac, no vac among others all play a part".
With respect to "vibrations" and "pulse frequency" (of the high pressure injectors, I assume), it has been discussed in numerous threads. Has anyone on this forum actually taken filtration measurements on any of the filter set-ups with the engine running (vibration and injectors working) ?
SoMnDMAX
05-29-2003, 01:41
Hoot, will do. When the truck goes down, you get the call, and I expect you to be here within the hour. tongue.gif With respect to Racor, my intention was not to dog the company as a whole- I agree, Parker/Hannifin/Racor make some excellent products. No doubt. What I do doubt is the factory setup's ability to do it's job, whether that's a GM thing or a Racor thing remains to be seen. One thing that has been proven is the factory filter's inability to filter the fuel properly. As far as I'm concerned, all the factory element can do effectively is provide a place to mount the W.I.F. sensor- and even that's questionable sometimes. :eek: I also think the guys who are having the major stalling problems had a pre-existing condition, which upon installation of the filter brought the problems to light. As you've stated, those need to be diagnosed separately, and cannot be blamed on one specific "cause". I also question the bleeding of the fuel systems at installation time- one time bleeding after the installation isn't enough. For my truck it took two or three bleedings to get the air to stabilize.
Air and hydraulics do not mix. Proven fact. Diesel injection systems are a hydraulic system, and if we're taking the air out of the fuel, it can only be a good thing- even if it causes some inconvenience. In 5,000 miles, I have not had a air related stall condition. Since my fuel system is functioning properly, I do not expect to ever have on road problems related to airlock. JMHO. Like I said before, five minutes of "inconvenience" to bleed air sure beats having to work 20+ hours to afford to replace ONE injector after warranty is up.
To each their own- Racor, Cat, Baldwin, etc- whatever floats your boat. I will keep running what I've got. smile.gif
[ 05-29-2003: Message edited by: SoMnDMAX ]</p>
SoMnDMAX,
You said:
==================================================
Air and hydraulics do not mix. Proven fact. Diesel injection systems are a hydraulic system, and if we're taking the air out of the fuel, it can only be a good thing- even if it causes some inconvenience. In 5,000 miles, I have not had a air related stall condition. Since my fuel system is functioning properly, I do not expect to ever have on road problems related to airlock. JMHO. Like I said before, five minutes of "inconvenience" to bleed air sure beats having to work 20+ hours to afford to replace ONE injector after warranty is up.
==================================================
I assume you are using the Mega Filter. How do you know when you should bleed it? Just before it stalls? Does it give you a sign? Rough idle?
I think you'll find that you can tell who is using the Mega..... the ones that are justifying the bleeding. I simply think it's bs that some of you guys have been convinced that trapping air in a fuel filter is a good thing. How bleeding regularly, was written into the instructions after the problem came to light.
True about air not being good but you'll never convince me that collecting and sending gulps through is better than leaving it in solution.
And there is no data confirming that any of this is giving the Duramax longer injector life although I think we can all pretty much agree that removing foreign substances down to 2 microns will. If there is a weakness in the injector design unrelated to dirt, the failures will continue albiet with less frequency. Your statement about losing an injector and warranty being out does not mean a thing if air is not a REAL issue in this system. Explain to me how air looks in fuel at 23,000 psi. Remember, the fuel is pressurized from the hp pump all the way to the tip of the injector.
Bleed on. ;)
[ 05-29-2003: Message edited by: hoot ]</p>
FirstDiesel
05-29-2003, 04:41
Mine is installed post oem and I have air in the filter. I have had no problems like stalling etc. I feel much better with the filter on catching the air and the fuel dirt than I did before. Would I prefer if there was no air in my system, YES. Can I live with the filter catching it and bleeding it out now and then, YES.
a64pilot
05-29-2003, 06:24
Guy's if your really upset about the air the only way you are going to realistically get rid of it is to pressurize the system. The air will still be there of course, just in solution. Read the link that mackin posted, it makes alot of sense. I still think that if a slight vacuum will release the air then 20,000+ PSI will darn sure put it back in in a double quick hurry. I am also sure that large gulps of air cannot be put back into solution and maybe harmful.
I'll ask something again, maybe it was missed. Is the filter head on the Mega Filter specifically a fuel filter head? or is it a lube filter head that was adapted for use as a fuel filter.
The filter head on the Mega filter is a custom billet of aluminum.
The re-bleed was written into the original instructions when posted. The FAQ section was the only thing added. I haven't even added the oring under the nipple to the instructions. Hoot, please do not make insinuations you know nothing about.
FWIW, I was speaking with a guy (well known here) who wanted to see my Mega filter ASAP. He said that a rep from GM was musing about adding a lift pump that would cycle with the glow plugs so as to prime the OE system. Wonder why...
Adding to the billet mount statement, it has large, free flowing entry/exit ports, and the fuel enters (on production units) inside a channnel that is cut in the underside of the head. This channel "ramps" to the bleeder ensuring a very thorough bleeding can be accomplished.
a64pilot
05-29-2003, 08:06
John,
Custom, I understand. If you don't mind me asking, why the long nipple?
As to priming during start, interesting, I didn't want to draw any analogies, but the Apache had air in fuel issues in the beginning. The fuel in hose is positioned close to the fuel out hose and during hot refueling air would be sucked in causing flame outs etc on take off. Has nothing to due with our trucks except it has a suction fuel system also except during engine starts. During engine starts a complex system of valves and boost pump is engaged to pressurize the fuel system.
chuntag95
05-29-2003, 08:10
Just a quick statement about air. I have a post Mega air trap. It finally caught some air Tues. It looks like between 200-250 miles, the Mega filled up and passed some gas. redface.gif I only found out about it when I raised the hood. I had no idle problems, no stalling, just air in my trap. I repurged the system and will watch to see if that mileage is repeatable. Since I have no problems, I have to raise the hood periodically (when I think of it) and check my trap. I try and check after every trip, but sometimes that's not possible. Thanks for reading and have a nice day. :D
==================quote=========================== =
I think you'll find that you can tell who is using the Mega..... the ones that are justifying the bleeding. I simply think it's bs that some of you guys have been convinced that trapping air in a fuel filter is a good thing. How bleeding regularly, was written into the instructions after the problem came to light.
================================================== =
That is not an insinuation.
Are you trying to say since the original instructions were written with re-bleeding, the Mega Filter was designed to trap air and be re-bled periodocally?
Or you didn't write the instructions until after you found out?
I'll accept any answer and be done with it.
BTW: Who designed this custom head?
[ 05-29-2003: Message edited by: hoot ]</p>
Unless GM actually come up with a recall and a retrofitted lift pump, I have to deal with what GM provided me in the first place, as long as I want warranty coverage. The Mega filter sold me on the basis of very good filtration results of the fuel (without a lift pump) and the good reputation JK has on this forum and from my own experience. JK was clear that he did not want to make recommendations on the installation pre- or post- OEM. No mentioning of trapping vapors, air or gases. The only puging in the instructions was after the initial installation. I feel if this goal can not be achieved, I'll have to part with the filter. I think the vapor issue in the low pressure segment of the fuel supply is something the OEM design allowed for and any related damage to the system is fully covered under warranty.
Warranty issue aside, I think that one will be able to get better filtration by pressurizing the system as a64pilot remarked, since concerns of filter pressure drop/vacuum can be overcome. This however is no option to me now, unless GM underwrites the use of a lift pump.
dieselburb
05-29-2003, 11:16
A64pilot, the long nipple is for the integral post seal inside the filter. I machined my own fittings for my own housings and made them about 2 inches long to seal on the posts of the filters I'm using.
On a different post from you earlier, I'll put my fuel dock diesel to the test. If you think the fuel coming out of land stations is cleaner than on the water, please check again. Just ask your land station if their filters BLOCK water and what their micron rating is. Mine do and are rated at 12 micron absolute (Baldwin BF1239).
The racors on boats are there to separate any water from the fuel. They do a great job for PRIMARY filtration and water separation, but not elemination. They will allow water to pass through the filter media and on to the injectors if unchecked. As for their absolute micron claims, I don't run racor on my truck as a secondary just for that reason.
Again, use what you want, just know what you're using.
I too, have just donned my flame suit :rolleyes:
First you say the Racors on boats are there to remove water than you say Racor filters allow water to pass.
Which is it?
Water in larger quantities being heavier than fuel drops to the bowl. Our Racor offers an Aquabloc filter media that is "engineered to repel water and remove solid contaminants before they can damage precision engine components. Aquabloc media is a blend of high grade cellulose compounded with resins and a special chemical treatment. Water won't cling to the element. Aquabloc repels it."
Also from Racor...
"High capacity, on-engine primary or secondary filtration"
http://www.parker.com/racor/cat/english/images/dsl_sp/spin_pop.gif
[ 05-29-2003: Message edited by: hoot ]</p>
pinehill
05-29-2003, 11:39
Seemed quite clear to me: The OEM Racor on the boat is intended to remove all water, but allows some to pass.
I felt the insinuation was this statement:
"How bleeding regularly, was written into the instructions after the problem came to light."
The install overview was posted prior to release of the product. The rebleeding was in the original instructions. The FAQ was added because the same questions were being asked over and over.
As for the mount:
The mount concept is mine. The rough design was by a DP member. I massaged some dimensions and handed off to several machinists who made prototype units. The machinist (another DP member) who took the initiative to alter the general shape, add the ramped up groove, and give it the general "sex appeal" got the job.
The nipple is long because there is a seal inside the filter to which the nipple extends.
The nipple engages this rubber BEFORE the threads engage keeping any microscopic filings out of the clean side fuel.
The base is anodized to "tie up" or burn off any remnants of the machining process, and to improve appearance and corrosion resistance.
The nipple is a REAL stainless steel, and is electropolished. This again is to knock off any remnants of the machining process.
The suction point is approximately 2" below the surface of the filter head. This, along with the long "residence time" of slow moving fuel in the filter plus the tight filter media, the free air in the incoming fuel will tend to seperate and hang out on the outside of the element at the top of the filter head.
Simple case of "back woods hick" over engineering... :D
Any other questions?
pinehill,
Previous posts have stated all of our after market filtration systems are over 90% effective at their advertised rating. I think that's plenty.
Water.... are we having water issues? I'm not. Both of my filters have water bowls and my Racor 690R2 uses the Aquabloc filter media.
In case anybody hadn't noticed, Racor also offers a vacuum sensor for filter change indication.
J/K.
Sorry for insinuating. I'm getting a little ahead of myself here.
I give you credit on building a brick poophouse but even they don't trap air ;)
[ 05-29-2003: Message edited by: hoot ]</p>
dieselburb
05-29-2003, 12:38
Sorry guys, got off topic with the racor and boat thing. Primary racor systems we see SEPARATE water from the fuel (not remove) using the flow characteristics of the filter housings. This works up until the water level exceeds the fuel level, i.e. drain the bowl if you see water or it will pass. No we don't have a water issue with our trucks, I was trying to clarify for A64pilot about the fuel dock issue (completely off topic).
ndamico,
I think it would be a great idea to run the samples on the various filters. I was thinking a good person for this would be George Morrison.
Looks like we have two volunteers to obtain the facts. Baldwin and Cat. Any other takers from Racor, Stanadyne or others would be appreciated.
You all are invited to put your cards on the table. Please don't post tech. data that your filter manufacterer has provided for THEIR filters or mention filter recommended applications. Were here to test fuel not hot air. :rolleyes:
I now have over 1,000 miles on my Mega Filter. I have bled it once just out of curosity to see if there was any air in the system. I had to pump about seven or eight times and did bleed just a little air (it was very hard to even hear it escaping from around the bleed screw) from the top of the MF mount. I did that over 700 miles ago.
I have not touched it since and I have NO problems. Based on my prior experience with the Mega Filter, I am begining to think I could run the thing forever and not bleed it and not have any problems. BTW, it is installed Post OEM.
However, I am NOT much of a mechanic and I could be mistaken.
I am going to run my truck with no bleeds until it stalls or fails to start, just to see if it will EVER stall or fail to start. I'll post again if and when it does.
[ 05-29-2003: Message edited by: felpa41 ]</p>
a bear,
i'm still down for it and using George's services sound like a fine idea to me. let me know if we're going to do it. fwiw- i think we should all try and take our samples in the same manner to try and have as many constants as possible.
nick
JK - I have a pre Production unit. Is there any other difference on the filterhead than what you stated before in...
"Adding to the billet mount statement, it has large, free flowing entry/exit ports, and the fuel enters (on production units) inside a channnel that is cut in the underside of the head. This channel "ramps" to the bleeder ensuring a very thorough bleeding can be accomplished."
My set-up does not have this ramp.
felpa41 - Give me the secret on how to make this filter work! Most folks have stalls long before you. What are your driving distances? How many days do you drive on a tank? Temperatures?
a64pilot
05-29-2003, 15:00
To whom it may concern,
The statement about the fuel dock was made to show that Racor dosen't make junk. While your's may have very clean fuel the ones around Panacea, Appalachola and Carrabelle Fla. Don't. These I have experience with. As to Racor dosen't block water, I've had boat filters fill with water to the point that the engine starves for fuel and shuts down and no water entered the injection system. No we aren't having a water problem (thank God), I include it again to illustrate that Racor dosen't make junk and their filters do what they claim. Filters that they market under their name for their filter heads etc.
The reason I questioned what the nipple was for was because I figured it had a reason and by removing it to fix an air entrapment problem maybe you would cause a worse problem.
BTW I don't have thin skin so fire away if you want.
I have enough sense not to be badmouthing something I have no personal experience with, I.E. the Mega. I like others am trying to figure out why it traps air while others allow it to pass. I think we are way beyond anyone thinking it causes air and am now wodering why it traps it.
Have to go back to work now will check back tommorrow
To those talking about head to head filter comparisions. IMHO it will be a good start to have different members submit samples to the same facility to try the different setups. We can over look the air issue because that hopefully is independant of filtering ability. The biggest inconsistancy will be pump fuel quality. You can play an averages or percentile game on the results to get close but I don't believe it will meet the standards this forum seems to demand.
I propose if those of you who are attending the Rendezvous with different setups are willing to do the sampling you can eliminate one big variable by filling up at the same station the same day. Maybe even during the course of the weekend enough miles can be driven to get a good sample and sample everyone's vehicle the same way. That way everyone will know the testing was done as fair as possible.
sdaver
Is that reference to this being a ticking bomb thread or are you timing a paddle lock ...??
Mac
;) tongue.gif
felpa41 - Give me the secret on how to make this filter work! Most folks have stalls long before you. What are your driving distances? How many days do you drive on a tank? Temperatures?
I had the kit installed by a local independent mechanic here in town.
I normally drive only 15 to 50 miles at a time. I have a 56 gal Transfer flow fuel tank. I have filled the tank twice since installing the filter.
I only let the tank get to the 3/4 mark the first two times. Now, I have let it run down to less than the 1/4 tank mark.
Not even a hint of any problem (other than a little air that I bled from the system once). Soon after I bled the air out, the pump on top of the OEM filter was soft again. I think it operates in that condition all the time so I assume that there is always a little air in my Mega filter mount. It just doesn't seem to cause any problems so I just let it be.
It starts and runs as well as it ever did but I think (it's too early to know for sure) I am getting better fuel mileage after the filter installation.
Sometimes the truck will sit for three or more days without being run. Temperatures are in the high 60's to high 90's this time of the year. It seem to make no difference how long the truck sits or how hot or cold the temperature is.
[ 05-29-2003: Message edited by: felpa41 ]</p>
svpdiesel
05-29-2003, 16:19
First, let me state that John Kennedy is a business customer of mine, and I have a high opinion of him, but I will try and keep my feelings out of this discussion. So here are the facts I have been able to come up with, and I know you all will correct me if I am wrong...
As I recall, the original reason for adding another filter to the system was; the stock filter was tested and found to be only about 65% efficient at the 2-micron level, and in some cases, made the fuel dirtier by disintegrating in use. It would seem obvious that a filter should be added post-oem to protect the fuel system from contamination missed, and/or caused by the stock filter.
JK's filter is made by Baldwin and was tested and found to be 98% efficient at the 2-micron level. The fact that it traps air that gets by the stock filter is actually beneficial, and no other filter arrangement seems to be capable of this. How often it needs to be bled seems to vary from truck to truck. Letting the air pass through the system is not good, if it makes it into the main pressure pump. Yes, at 23 ksi, the air will be re-compressed into the fuel, UNTIL it reaches the open fuel injector, at which point it will come out of there like popping the cork on champagne. This happens right at the tip, which is where the sealing surfaces are. This will eventually result in leaking injectors. So will passing particles in the 2-5 micron range. Logic seems to dictate that a system which eliminates both contaminants is a good thing, and the stock system is NOT doing the job. Other types of filter systems- Racor, Stanadyne, Cat, etc., may remove the dirt, but none I have heard of also remove air. Kennedy's does.
I plan to keep my truck longer than the warranty will last, so I'm doing everything I can to stop premature failures. JK's Megafilter is one of them. I can live with bleeding it every now and then till we figure out a way to eliminate that as well.
Does anyone know if the Racor or Baldwin filters in question are hydrophylic or hydrophobic?
On another note, the ability to filter air out of a fluid is not a function of a particle filter. Air (or a gas) is assumed to be much less viscous than a fluid (certainly diesel fuel) and will easily pass through a filter element. The only thing that can stop this is an air trap, where the flow and turbulence of the liquid does allow a purge of trapped gas.
A new look at the filter housing orientation may allow trapped air (gases) to flow through, and then keep the system purged.
If there is entrained gas in the fuel, nothing can be done about that other than time or a high vac source to boil the gases out. I would think that keeping the gas in solution as much as possible may be the best effort thereafter.
Any thoughts?
:cool:
a64pilot
05-29-2003, 18:34
madmax7,
The Racor has to be hydrophobic as it "repels" water. I do not know about the Baldwin. I believe repel is the word the Racor add uses. On the head trapping air, I agree, anything that will allow a liquid to pass surely will pass a gas, that is the reason I was asking about the source of the filter head on the Mega. I was trying to figure out what's different about it other than the long nipple. I believe someone has tried a filter head with the nipple cut off and it didn't help. So what's different? By different I DO NOT MEAN TO INFER INFERIOR, just different. As you state the only way to pratically keep the gases in solution is by preventing pressures less than atmospheric.
So as far as I can see we are back to either allowing the gases to pass through as they do in apparently all other vacuum fed diesel fuel systems regradless of make, or pressurizing the fuel system like in the 6.5 for example.
dieselburb
05-29-2003, 19:02
A64, sorry, I'm off my soapbox now and promise only to ask questions and respond without so much technical whoo-hoo. I respect you guys a lot and don't intend to crash the party.
I actually thought about using a nipple which extended almost to the bottom of the filter, but if the air was still coming in, this would only make the filter a larger trap.
Madmax, depends on the filter being used, different media with each separate application.
Again, sorry about my outgassing earlier, wrong place to purge.
LanduytG
05-29-2003, 19:29
Location loaction location. Change the location so the mega is not the low point. I know that I was flamed earlier for saying this but the thing is acting like a p trap. Also I have been thinking if the channel in the head is very large that might trap air where if you had just enough of a channel to pass only the fuel needed it might not trap air because it would not be lingering in the channel. These are as good of ideas of any that have come up.
Greg
Lone Eagle
05-29-2003, 19:53
Dito Greg! You will not get any flaming from me. I know where air goes in all fluid systems. Later! Lone Eagle ;)
a64pilot
05-30-2003, 07:06
Greg,
The air would go to the high point wouldn't it? The Mega is down low.
BieselBurb,
No insult meant and none taken I assure you.
Maybe Diesel burb is onto something with orientation, of course this would allow the air to pass through if it worked and not eliminate any.
So far I believe that a bear has the only workable solution for air in the Mega and I believe the only workable solution for eliminating air in any type of filter including bone stock. FWIW
a64,
Does a bear's system eliminate air? I guess it does, in front of it by pressurizing the system.
It also helps keep it in solution.
But then again, by turning the system in front of the pump to a pressurized one, any previous possible air leaks would turn into positive fuel line leaks, thus finding the original source of air intrusion.
a bear has developed a leak detection device!
[ 05-30-2003, 07:44 AM: Message edited by: hoot ]
Greg/Lone Eagle, I support the location issue versus air in filter from experience with my F..D installation of the Racor filter/water separator. It is located near the fire wall on the drivers side, with the filter top just under the hood. To replace the filter cartridge, all one has to do is to unsrew the lid nut and lift the lid to for access. On several occasions I found the fuel level up to an inch below the rim, may be, because the filter was creating too much of a vacuum due to contamination and outgassing occurred. In all cases, I could not notice any fuel supply problems.
In over 130K milesI had two occasions of fuel starvation to the engine, due to bad diesel fuel and a heavy load. In one case I prevented engine stall in a tricky road situation by using my after marked primer pump, operated with a toggle switch from under the dash. In the second case I actually stalled and I removed the plugged Racor cartridge and let the OEM filter take the hit of remaining rust in fuel. It got me out of a jam, 'til I could get new filters.
I think a higher location may be the key to eliminate the problem. Has anyone found or tried a location similar to Lone Eagle with the Mega kit?
Manfred, If it fits I want to put the Cat setup where Lone Eagle did. I figure if air does exist and cause problems a post oem system can be removed and the post filter lines replaced to factory condition easily. Bad thing is I'm all tied up this month. I'll be lucky to get my oe filter replaced much less anything else done before July 4th.
a64pilot
05-30-2003, 09:59
Hoot,
I hate to speak for someone else. I have not seen a bear's system, but I think I grasp what he has done. Some what elegant handywork from the pictures. That is meant as a compliment, very airworthy workmanship ;) . Any way I believe he is keeping his fuel at atmospheric pressure thereby not allowing any air to come out of solution, if this is true he is not eliminating any air, just keeping it in solution. The only way to eliminate air IMHO would be to hold the fuel under a hard vacuum until all outgassing stopped. Then you would not be able to allow an air/fuel interface to exist, like a fuel bladder tank with no air space etc. NOT a workable solution of course.
He should not have a leak detection device as it is at atmospheric pressure, 0psig, It would only leak if it had a hole in a line or something as the fuel in the line and the place it would leak to are at the same pressure.
I still believe that for those that are worried about air in fuel his solution is the most workable answer.
LanduytG
05-30-2003, 10:05
Often times air will hang in the lower part of a loop and still let fluid through. I have seen this many times in different types of equipment that I have worked with. Right now I have and air pocket that will not move in the VW TDI unless I arrange the line differently. Also if you don't have enough flow you can cause air to pocket.
Greg
a64,
I agree. a bear's setup is really sweet. I guess I wasn't paying attention but the control loop with the bypass valve is pretty trick.
http://community.webshots.com/sym/image3/2/52/57/73925257MUzsWR_ph.jpg
SoCalDMAX
05-30-2003, 11:00
Here's my take on secondary fuel filters.
There are 3 things that concern me about the fuel system. My goals include longer fuel pump and injector life, better performance and more reliability.
1. Air in the fuel. There are 2 possible sources of air: leakage from poor sealing and entrained air that is always in solution in the fuel, it is always present and can be released by cavitation or high vacuum. I still believe that air, even in fine bubbles, alters the hydraulic properties of the fuel and retards timing, decreasing power and fuel efficiency.
2. "Dirty fuel". I don't know what these particles are, but if they're being forced against the pump and injectors at 23,000psi, it is most certainly damaging. The factory filter is not removing enough nor as fine of particles as required by the extreme pressures involved.
3. Fuel system damage. I'm not going to assume that the pump and injectors are perfectly engineered and will last a lifetime or perform at peak levels forever. One may get a defective or marginal injector, or it may get damaged by large particles of rust or gradually worn out by cavitation or abrasion. As things wear, performance will suffer. I do believe that IF the fuel is clean enough and free of bubbles, the system will last a very long time.
I think the air in fuel filter phenomena is a function of filtration level. The tighter the filter media, the greater vacuum is created, the more air is pulled out of solution in the filter. This may actually be a case of too good of filtration. I still think the correct approach is to add a lift pump, NOT removing the filter.
I think these issues are at work on the other brands of diesels as well, based on posts on other forums. Take a look at the Preporator for an example of how another company percieved the problem on big rigs and how they went about solving it. It pressurizes, filters and removes the air from the fuel system. It's only $1,000 :eek: , so you see why I didn't go that route. The economics are a bit different for an over the road trucker, so that's the customer they targeted with that product.
I look forward to seeing fuel test results from the different brands of filters. I think it will reinforce my beliefs that similar rated filters from different mfrs. will perfrom essentially the same.
Regards, Steve
hoot,
Regarding your comment, "But then again, by turning the system in front of the pump to a pressurized one, any previous possible air leaks would turn into positive fuel line leaks, thus finding the original source of air intrusion.”
Tommy’s LPG pressure test and vacuum test at the tank sender connections proved he had no (static) leaks in his system. If there were no external leaks, his gas had to come from inside the system (from the fuel). The only other explanation would be that the leak only occurs when the engine is running and is due to some other dynamic phenomena.
Is it impossible for air to get churned in, in the tank, and get sucked up? Especially during a near empty condition?
SoCalDMAX and everybody else,
Should we start a new "Air in Fuel" topic :eek:
maybe titled...
"Controlled Aftermarket Filter Fuel Sample Results"
Within this topic we would agree on one testing lab and use identical sampling methods including pre-cleaning of the sample exit point.
a64pilot
05-30-2003, 11:22
This has nothing to do with the Mega, but with the fuel system we have.
We have two pumps, essentually a low pressure and a high pressure one. Is there a fuel return point from the low pressure pump? Or is all the fuel returned from the engine being returned from the injectors?
Have you ever noticed how hot the return line is back on the frame rail?
Was under the rig last night and was surprised to feel how warm it really gets.
Makes me wonder if some of our trucks are running higher fuel temps than others.
Anybody ever checked how warm the fuel actually gets? smile.gif
a64pilot
05-30-2003, 13:44
One of the parameters Auto tap gives you is fuel temp, IIRC it wasw in the 120+ range but I was not checking for that at the time, I was resetting the DTC my K+N aircharger gives me. I think that I finally have that beat now, fingers crossed.
Dave Lewis
05-30-2003, 14:05
I wonder where the sensor is for that reading, on the infeed or return line. Could be the sensor to activate the fuel heater??
predator will show that temp also..........20k psi heats things up a bit :D dave
I'll bet the 90v drivers in the FICM used to pop the injectors generate significant amounts of heat too. If I remember correctly, Chris, in his pre-mega air tests, saw bubbles coming out of the FICM and entering the OE filter. Could the FICM be "boiling" the fuel?
smile.gif
[ 05-31-2003, 05:15 AM: Message edited by: jbplock ]
Well JB I was thinking the same thing.
I still have the clear line intalled between the FICM and the stock filter and there is always some bubbles hanging around there.
As I've said before I tested the feed line in front of the tank all the way to the outlet side of the FICM.It held 20" of vac for over 90 minutes with no loss so I'm satisfied there are no leaks.120 deg sounds preety hot to me.
At what temp does the fuel start to outgas?
I think Chris was doing the hairdryer to bottle test and was getting some air that way but I never heard the conclusion.
Blake
Why are you guys fighting this new found source of out gassing,A source of clean filtered air .....
Why not piggy back a quick disconnect for an air line therefore you can blow up your sunning rafts at the beach when you arrive ..... Save room for more food and BEER in the picnic basket Boo Bo ....
Mac http://www.turbodieselregister.com/ubb/hihi.gif http://www.turbodieselregister.com/ubb/hihi.gif http://www.turbodieselregister.com/ubb/hihi.gif
GMCTRUCK
05-31-2003, 13:22
ROTFLMAO!! :D :D :D
Hey Mac,King D has a free box for ya so get back to work. :D :D smile.gif smile.gif ;)
- Or just route it back thru the intake and go faster! that was easy. Thanks Mack!
one thing I been thinking about- like SoCal said- is the Mega doing too good of a job? what happens if a bigger micron (ie-10 micron) filter is used ?
Looks like we lost JK- he said he was getting sick of this.
zip
chuntag95
05-31-2003, 16:26
I did do the hair dryer test. It showed that you could get the fuel to outgas. I didn't take pre and post temps, but it wasn't a large shift and it wasn't even close to 120. Another thing that I noticed is that very little of the air has gone back into the fuel. When I shake it that helps it go back into solution. I wish I had a better setup to truely "control" the experiment.
I can say that I am positive the fuel will outgas and that it will go back into solution, but only with help. Cooling back down did not reduce the amount of air. So, if the air comes out when the engine and system are hot, cooling off will not do anything with the air. Shaking, or flowing might, but the WHOLE reason for having a MEGA filter was to slow down the flow through the media. I think the slow flow is why it does not pull the air through (surface tension of the bubbles) and it collects in the top. It does not "need" to go through the filter for the system to have enough flow. Now, you have the top full of air and you stop. You get the fuel to cool down and that air is now a larger volume. The air moves across to the clean side an forms a slug of air below the nipple. Air rises in the nipple and moves up through the system. It stops where ever the friction and fluid dynamics desire. You crank your truck and WHAM! it dies. (Remember the guy with the 7 second lug of the engine?) Maybe a vapor lock situation is formed on some trucks and they have to be purged. Some trucks, like mine, choke it down and keep going.
Here would be a good test. If any of the other makers have a filter as large as the Mega, put it on and see if it collects air. What if the issue here is the large size and slow flow through the media and not the nipple. Houston saw no change with the short nipple. Maybe this is why. Here is a hypothesis: He collects enough air in the filter that when he stops and it collects and littlbe bubbles form a big bubble. Once large enough, the bubble will be below the nipple and go through the filter. There is the air that causes his no start.
Okay, I put on my Nomex undies, FIRE AWAY! :D
Chris,
I also found out the Mega element is a 1 micron. This would mean it could trap particles 1/2 the size of the standard filters. Now that the elements are fluid packed and all the media is being utilizing I will be sending a sample in to AVLube. Just ordered the kit today. One thing for sure, I am definitely seeing better mileage. I wasn't buying in to the better mileage thing but now I'm becoming convinced. :cool:
Dave Lewis
05-31-2003, 18:11
Hey Chris. Which pump are you using for your bleeder? Are you still using it or have you switched to the lift pump?
Chris, a bear, NWDmax,
I have been following these posts on air issues with great interests and one question comes to mind.
What if after you have eliminated the real AIR leaks, the remaining bubbles are not air at all, but are diesel fuel vapor? Diesel Fuel is a mixture of heavier and lighter components and with heat, the lighter components come out of solution. If that is the case, there will always be fuel vapor with the heat so close to a hot engine.
Have you considered cleaning your fuel cooler to insure it is working its best, and what if you installed a piece of insulation between the mega-filter and the engine to ward off that source of heat??? Especially important right after shutdown.
There may not be any value to this idea, but I thought I would ask.
Don
Don,
Interesting that you mentioned this. It could very well be light ends flashing off with the vac and temp change once leaks are eliminated. If this is the case it would definitely explain my increase in fuel mileage since removing the vac with the lift pump. Light ends are considered to be the best part of a hydrocarbon and are the first part to come out of solution. Without testing there would be no way to figure the liquid equivalent but every little bit would help. As far as the heat, my fuel stays rather cool as long as the fuel is moving however I do conduct a little heat at the OIM after the engine is shut down.
chuntag95
05-31-2003, 22:37
I am still using by bleeder pump. I am stongly considering the lift pump. As a matter of fact, I was rolling around in bed thinking about if I should plump a return line from the bleeder or change to a lift. The bleeder is cheaper, but the lift is looking more promissing from a reliability standpoint. I got my first bubble in my post Mega air trap tonight at 175 miles. (Took the kids to find Nemo.) I am planning on a run to KC in about a month and a half, so I would like to be in final config by then.
Heat seems to play a very important roll in the amount of air/vapor. I was over 200 before I caught a bubble, but it was 10 degrees cooler. I saw the same type results with my 4' clear hose on top of the mega. Cool equals less air.
I am not sure if insulation will keep the filter cool. My engine compartment is pretty toasty when it hits 100 here in rush hour. The air scoop does seem to help my Allison stay below 200.
If I go with the lift pump, I have to get my courage up to tell the wife I am going to buy a $100 pump and then probably spend that again with fittings, etc. because I catch air in my $200 filter. I have not slowed down on the playing around like I thought I would. :rolleyes: She wants to do some things around the house. Hey, JK, do you have a prototype kit you need someone to try out? ;) I'm your man any you have my address! :D
I installed my Mega filter a month ago and purposely waited for a no start before bleeding the air. It went 1,200 miles and then this morning after sitting overnight it started and then died. Had to pump about 20 times or more to get fuel out the bleeder.
Here is a question--what would happen if you ran a line off the bleeder valve and teed into the fuel line feeding the engine? Seems to me that might let the air pass through and solve the air trapping problem.
What do you think?
Finished today installing my lift pump ala Abear.
I've only driven about 10 miles after pumping a pint of fuel out through my clear 2' bleeder line.
Still getting bubbles and have a foot of air in the bleeder line.I'll give it a couple of days before I draw any more conclusions.
Still have to check my pump pressure as so far I'm just making sure I have outflow at the bleeder line.No leaks but still seeing bubbles at the FICM. :confused:
An interesting question, TC.
I guess it would depend on whether the vapor you found is air or fuel vapor. If it is fuel vapor, because you have insured there are no air leaks, then sending it to the engine might be just fine if the flow is small bubbles that do not get too large.
I am curious on your difficulties after 1200 miles. Was the day hotter than before? Did you fill up at a different than normal fuel station? Anything else different???
Don
On Edit: Is the vapor being trapped on the dirty side of the Mega-Filter??? If so, you may risk allowing dirty fuel into the engine...
[ 06-02-2003, 12:54 AM: Message edited by: Don G ]
NWDmax,
You mentioned you are currently setting the pressure on your lift pump by making sure you have outflow at the bleeder. Is this with the engine running?
I only saw one post directed towards me, so pardon me if I missed anyone. Manfred, the filter heads are all the same spec, the new generation just have some added pizzaz!
Been out in the yard all weekend, and likely most evenings this week cleaning up after the excavator. I kept him digging/hauling for about 10 hrs to give you an idea of the magnitude...
Yes JB that was with the engine idling.
Kennedy, It wasn't directed at you but chuntag95
asked if a different mfg filter will fit the Mega to see if it traps air too. I suggested the same thing a while back. That would be an easy test to help pin point if it's the filter or the head or???
NWDmax,
Keep us posted on your lift pump progress. I’m still getting all the parts together and will hopefully be installing mine within the next week or so. Did you use the same AC Delco pump (for a 6.5) that Tommy used? Since you are setting the regulator with the bleeder open, I wonder if your actual pressure is less once you close the bleeder (?). Do you also plan to a add vac/pressure gauge to the bleeder like Tommy did? I’ll be using my GM gauge that fits the Schrader valve but I think I may still add the permanent gauge to make it easier to monitor. smile.gif
Yeah I used the AC Delco pump and I plan to hook up a vac/pressure gauge to the bleeder line to verify my pressure there.
I'll post later what my results are.
Blake
I can't see the original application for the Mega requiring the unit to be shut down every n-hours to purge the air. In the original application is there a purge or something else that we are missing? Since some have air and some don't it looks like the issue is real air leaks. If it's out gassing, is this really an "air" issue. The out gassed fuel should return to solution under pressure.
JakeG: The stock system allows the air to pass through the filter head because there is no room for it to collect.
I'm just one of many whose truck seems to produce and/or trap this air.
I've vac tested everything but the outflow line from the tank to the quick disconnect fitting by the fuel cooler.
So if I'm getting air from somewhere other than outgassing its coming from the tank connection or the pickup.
OK, an update on my air problems. Yesterday I posted my first no start at 1,200 miles after an overnight sit. The only difference is the temperature has been at or above 100 degrees for the past 3 or 4 days.
Well after bleeding it yesterday and running all day, the same thing happened again this morning. Probably only 150 miles since the last time. I cannot understand how it went for a whole month and then lasted only a day until the next stall.
Don G. you raised an interesting question. Is the fuel from the bleeder valve filtered fuel or is it dirty fuel just entering the filter? This would make my idea of teeing off the bleeder valve into the engine supply line a bad idea!
Any input or other ideas?
Any input or other ideas? TC......
Yes, take the MEGA off and replace it with
something that will not trap air.
56Nomad,
We appreciate all your friendly reminders that YOUR filter is the BEST :rolleyes: ...We’re also glad your filter set-up is working so good and you are passing all your gas. :D
TC,
The bleeder is on the “dirty” side of the Mega (clean side of the OEM) so connecting a line from the bleeder to a Tee in the input to the LP pump would bypass the mega.
I have also noticed that the amount of air trapped will vary with mileage. I had been bleeding at every fill-up with out any no-starts. Then I installed my bleeder pump and ran with out bleeding to see how far it would go. I had a no start at about 350 miles. After that I went back to bleeding at each fill-up with the pump-bleeder and over the weekend I had another no-start at about 200miles. I have also done a variety of vacuum and pressure tests on my system and I’m confident (95%) that there are no leaks. So, I’m proceeding with the regulated lift pump like Tommy’s (with a another filter in front). I’m becoming convinced the air is coming out of solution from heat and vacuum and that it exists to some degree in all our trucks. Why it’s more in some and not others is still somewhat of a mystery. I could be totally wrong (it won’t be the first or the last time) and would be happy to have someone prove it to me.
smile.gif
Originally posted by 56Nomad:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Any input or other ideas? TC......
Yes, take the MEGA off and replace it with
something that will not trap air. </font>[/QUOTE]I think these guys are in denial that diesel fuel is saturated with air .... When I fill my truck and watch the flow, it looks like a well shaken keg of beer, frothing over .....
Change the element to a different rating like say a simple 2 micron see if problem goes away ..... Or bleed on ..... In 6 months when the air finally settles, pun intended, there will be some "I told you so's" forth coming ....
Mac
:rolleyes: http://forums.thedieselstop.com/ubbthreads/images/icons/blush.gif
:rolleyes:
Three's a charm ;)
If you guys don't like bleeding and are concerned about sending pockets of air through the injection system (something the stock system most likely does not do) either remove the thing you added that created the problem or put a fuel filter on that only does what it was intended to do.
Nomad is not bragging, he's just telling some of you guys what you don't want to hear.
It's called common sense guys. For some reason, removing the Mega and shipping it back from wence it came is taboo? Open your eyes dudes. The head was backwoods engineered. It looks good, made well but it has an inherent design flaw with no fixes as of yet.
Sometimes the truth hurts.
I have the exact filter setup as Nomad except I believe I'm using the next larger filter element. There is an even larger one available as well as choices in micron size. Bled it when I installed it. No stalls, no air entrapment, over 3000 miles so far. The head is designed by Parker/Racor one of the leaders in diesel filter design. It has a see through bowl and is capable of fuel heating, water sensing and vacuum indication as options. Replacement cartridges are $20 or less. Total cost of parts approx $130.
The best part is I can now move on to other things in life :eek:
Flame on. :D :D
PS..... Like I said.... tip toeing around here is not my forte.
[ 06-03-2003, 06:48 AM: Message edited by: hoot ]
chuntag95
06-03-2003, 08:22
TC,
I too have seen the air jump up in just the last 2 days. A Texas thing? I ran for 200+ miles without passing any, then 175 and this time I didn't make 100. The one change? TEMPERATURE! Or I have sprung a leak somewhere. I need to get some 7/16" fuel line and rid myself of those darn QDs.
Hoot,
I promise, if I could identify a design flaw, I would a. send it back or b. help fix it. I got my degree in backwoods (Southern, Aggie, Mechanical) engineering from Texas A&M. I have the background education for just this type of stuff. I have not found a "flaw" that needs to be fixed as of yet. If I do, you will be the third one to know. I will give JK second as a common courtesy. smile.gif
The second person who installed the lift pump, are you still seeing air or have you purged it all out now?
Originally posted by hoot:
Three's a charm ;)
If you guys don't like bleeding and are concerned about sending pockets of air through the injection system (something the stock system most likely does not do) either remove the thing you added that created the problem or put a fuel filter on that only does what it was intended to do.
Nomad is not bragging, he's just telling some of you guys what you don't want to hear.
It's called common sense guys. For some reason, removing the Mega and shipping it back from wence it came is taboo? Open your eyes dudes. The head was backwoods engineered. It looks good, made well but it has an inherent design flaw with no fixes as of yet.
Sometimes the truth hurts.
I have the exact filter setup as Nomad except I believe I'm using the next larger filter element. There is an even larger one available as well as choices in micron size. Bled it when I installed it. No stalls, no air entrapment, over 3000 miles so far. The head is designed by Parker/Racor one of the leaders in diesel filter design. It has a see through bowl and is capable of fuel heating, water sensing and vacuum indication as options. Replacement cartridges are $20 or less. Total cost of parts approx $130.
The best part is I can now move on to other things in life :eek:
Flame on. :D :D
PS..... Like I said.... tip toeing around here is not my forte. Some of the best products known to man were invented by "Backwoods Engineers"
http://home.wanadoo.nl/mlublink/hdstuff/pic6.jpg
SoMnDMAX
06-03-2003, 08:35
Originally posted by hoot:
The best part is I can now move on to other things in life :eek:
Flame on. :D :D
For some reason I doubt you will. http://zrxoa.org/forums/images/smilies/pokeit.gif http://zrxoa.org/forums/images/smilies/kick.gif
Originally posted by SoMnDMAX:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by hoot:
The best part is I can now move on to other things in life :eek:
Flame on. :D :D
For some reason I doubt you will. http://zrxoa.org/forums/images/smilies/pokeit.gif http://zrxoa.org/forums/images/smilies/kick.gif </font>[/QUOTE]I don't mean here on the forum ;) . I mean off the computer, I'm not doing anything lately but driving it. I know some of you guys are having fun figuring these things out and "backwoods" engineering. Right now lately all I have time for is to jump in and go. Unfortunately for you guys, I have a job with my fingers on the computer all day.
JK in his younger years......
http://www.uscom.com/~hoot/cars/duramax/kennedybabyphoto.jpg
[ 06-03-2003, 09:00 AM: Message edited by: hoot ]
SoMnDMAX
06-03-2003, 09:00
Originally posted by hoot:
Unfortunately for you guys, I have a job with my fingers on the computer all day. Isn't that the truth. :rolleyes:
Hoot/Nomad-
If your filter set-up does work trouble free post OEM, I'd like to know if anyone has actually tested a switch from a Mega filter installation with gas lock problems to a Racor set-up? No lift pump or other gas extraction/condenser devices. All that's needed is the filter hardware, the hoses are already in place, same location. Racor guy's would of course guarantee sucessful results??
Could you shoot me an e-mail, since I do have a couple of questions, if it's worth to do the test.
aistrichm@mta.net
Originally posted by Manfred:
Hoot/Nomad-
If your filter set-up does work trouble free post OEM, I'd like to know if anyone has actually tested a switch from a Mega filter installation with gas lock problems to a Racor set-up? No lift pump or other gas extraction/condenser devices. All that's needed is the filter hardware, the hoses are already in place, same location. Racor guy's would of course guarantee sucessful results??
Could you shoot me an e-mail, since I do have a couple of questions, if it's worth to do the test.
aistrichm@mta.net That would be something the Mega guys might want to try. My email is at the end of my signature page Manfred.
hoot you should change you avatar to this http://rubens.anu.edu.au/student.projects/tools/axgri.html
:D :D :D
Originally posted by sdaver:
hoot you should change you avatar to this http://rubens.anu.edu.au/student.projects/tools/axgri.html
:D :D :D I'm looking for a good picture of a nightmare Rube Goldberg plumbing fiasco for my avatar ;)
My comment on the Mega guys trying the other filters was not meant to be a smart arse answer. It was sincere. Why should those not having issues be doing R&D for
[ 06-03-2003, 09:46 AM: Message edited by: AXE GRINDER ]
Manfred,
I'm at quailman@cruzio.com
I believe most any filter in the Cat lineup that has 1-3/8" threads should screw onto my mount. No guarrantees/promises here.
We have a 6" extension currently being tested, but again, I'd rather keep it all or as close to all liquid myself...
Chuntag:Still getting air but have not finished testing yet.Seems to be accumulating less than before but will be installing a gauge to make sure what my pressure actually is.
BTW,where did you pull power from for the pump?I used a power window terminal but the pump runs for awhile after turning off the key or till I open the door!My truck is an extra cab so its an unused spot anyway.
I did install a 5 amp inline fuse too and so far no probs there.
I know I know but the oil pressure activated switch is a future deal when I get more time to work on this. :D :D
Blake
Blake,
I've been working on a restriction/pressure gauge similar to the GM tool, and should have a sample in MT for the Rendezvous. My only hangup has been waiting to find a 15"hg and 7psi gauge vs the std 30/15 stuff commonly available. Just wanting to spread the numbers for better resolution. I found a mfr for the gauge, but will only have 30/15 samples for now...
Yeah I'm seeing 7.5 psi at the bleeder when not running with the needle valve closed.Running it drops a little so now I've got it set at 3 psi running.
Whats the pressure diff from the bleeder to schrader valve position?
Also I'm going from positive pressure back to 1 in. hg of vac within 10 minutes of shutting down.Any clue why that is?
Blake
chuntag95
06-03-2003, 17:57
NWDmax,
You are not alone. I pump up my system and purge the air out of my traps. If I leave and check later, the clear line will suck itself flat. I too have to be going from pressure to vacuum like you are seeing. I can't explain it either. :confused:
For the power, I hooked straight to the back of the alt. post. My bleeder is powered all the time, but if I do the lift, it will be oil pressure like Tommy's.
I FINALLY found some 7/16" fuel hose tonight. 8 parts stores all over the place. I bought all 19' just so I would have it. Now I just need to start replacing QDs. :rolleyes:
Dave Lewis
06-03-2003, 19:26
Does anybody know where I could get an inexpensive pressure / vacuum transducer to monitor the pressure in the fuel line? I have found some but they are in the $300.00 range which doesn't include the display.
Dave,
If anyone finds one I too would be interested.
chuntag95, NWDmax,
A suggestion on why you go from pressure to a vacuum shortly after shutdown:
I think your system is air tight without any leaks, and as your warm fuel cools down, it will contract slightly in volume. And #2: Any fuel vapor that is present will cool down and slowly go back to a liquid.
Don
Lone Eagle
06-03-2003, 22:02
The fuel in the lines is higher than the tank. It wants to run back to the tank but can't unless you have a leak. Thus the small vacuum. Later! Lone Eagle ;)
Chris,
You indicated your bleeder is powered all the time. So are you running the bleeder when the engine is running and pumping fuel to the return?
Dave,
Hobbs makes a vacuum switch that looks identical to their pressure switch. One would think the Hobbs (http://content.honeywell.com/sensing/hss/hobbscorp/catswitch6.asp) vacuum switch should cost about the same as the pressure switch ($20-30). In lieu of a gauge in the cab (which would be better) I'm thinking of using the switch to turn on some kind of indicator in the cab to, indicate if lift pump has failed or filter(s) have plugged. Hobbs also makes a nice cover for their pressure (and vacuum) switches so I’m looking for a supplier to purchase from. I’ll post a source if I find one. Any one know of a Hobbs supplier?
Don, Lone Eagle,
Your explanation of the vacuum after shut down makes sense. I see this behavior with the GM gauge connected to the schrader-valve test port.
smile.gif
[ 06-04-2003, 05:30 AM: Message edited by: jbplock ]
Dave Lewis
06-04-2003, 06:12
Thanks for the info Bill, but I'm looking for a transducer so I can see what is going on. Much like a oil pressure gauge but with a smaller range. Do you know if they have something like that??
I haven't tried it yet, but I am told that the SPA digital transducer will do both. Only problem I see is it will likely read negative psi vs "hg.
chuntag95
06-04-2003, 08:27
No, my bleeder does not run all the time. What I meant was it is not controlled via the ignition. The power is always on at the push button switch, not the pump is always running. Sorry to confuse.
JK,
I think the SPA is in Hg when negative. I believe I saw an Hg show up when I had a negative 1. What about putting a gauge isolator on it and a valve so you could switch back and forth from boost to fuel pressure?
Dave Lewis
06-04-2003, 08:37
Would the transducer be compatible with diesel fuel? I have found inxpensive transducers but the were all rated for air and non corrosive gases.
I want one! I want one! Me too! Me too!
Dave Lewis
06-04-2003, 11:35
I spoke to ISSPRO and was told that they do not have a transducer that is compatible with diesel fuel. They have a mechanical gauge but you would have to route a line inside the cab :eek: .
I have access to a gauge isolator that eliminates diesel fuel in the line. Problem is the feed line has to be filled with a fluid usually trans fluid so it doesn't really solve the problem. I also have sources for transducers and am investigating. I'm leaving for the next two weeks on business and will visit some of them. I'll see if there is a low cost way of doing this.
chuntag95
06-04-2003, 12:54
Jelisfc,
Thanks! I too have been looking for a while. I would like one too.
JK,
As far as the SPA, they use the same sensor on their fuel pressure gauge. The response I got from them was the diesel fuel was no problem, but their gauge will read negative psi. :( I guess if you baseline that way, it shouldn't be a problem and if you add a lift pump, your cool. I was thinking about the 212 which has oil temperature with the fuel pressure. I would actually like oil pressure, oil temperature, fuel pressure and voltage but I only have one spot left in the overhead. Unless I rig up some switches to change sensors and then I could get all but the voltage.
Dave Lewis
06-04-2003, 15:37
Good work Chris. I did find a supplier of transducers that would work with diesel fuel and you can get them in a variety of ranges (vacuum to pressure) but the transducer alone costs either 195 or 225 depending on the output. You still have to get a display for it though. I think the SPA gauges would work fine if you can get the correct combination you want.
chuntag95
06-09-2003, 07:45
Okay, I ran 15-16 foot of 7/16" hose from the tank to the engine. I still see some air, but it does seem to be a little less. No matter, I will just cut off the last QD and put the hard line back in. I went ahead and replaced the line from the cooler to the tank on the return side while I had the tank dropped down.
I found a $10 30"Hg - 15 PSI gauge and put it where my post Mega trap used to be. Filled it with glycerin (it said you could) and I still see around 4" Hg just like when I put the Mega on. I'll post some pictures when I get some time.
NWMax,
How is your lift pump doing, still seeing gas?
Bill,
Did you get yours in? How did the filter work?
Tommy,
Are you still gas free?
Later,
Chris
Chris,
I haven't yet installed the lift pump and (3rd) 30 micron pre-filter. I'm waiting for the last few parts, but I hope to start this weekend. At the moment, I'm planning to mount the whole filter/pump assy on a plate that will in-turn mount to the frame rail with two standoffs. The in/out from the pump/filter plate assy will exit toward the back so it can be connected between the tank and steel line (without cutting the OE tube). I'm thinking this will make it easy two remove if, 1: I take it to the dealer for warranty work or, 2: it doesn't work :eek: . With the onset of summer, time to work on the truck is getting scarce. May take me a week or two to finish it. In the mean time I'm using the bleeder pump. I plan to fully document the install and post in the forum when complete (if it works
chuntag95
06-09-2003, 09:11
I have ordered most of my parts and will install Sunday if 1. the weather is good 2. they all get here 3. the wife lets me.
I still use my bleeder too. I am still considering running a line from the mega to the return so I can bleed mess free. I might just run the line back to the cooler and leave the engine compartment QD alone. Then again, it might look better to have both be a hose instead of one QD line and one hose. I did think about stealing the outer casing and slipping over the hose to camoflage it a bit. :D
Chris:The last 3 days or so my vapor/air/gases have dropped to nil.
Can't explain why I was getting a lot at first after installing the lift pump but now all is good. :D
I did increase presure a bit to 4 psi idling as measured at the Mega bleeder port so maybe that did it.
I'll continue to monitor and report my findings later in the week.
Good luck with your project! :cool:
NWDmax,
I'm glad to here the good news.
You probably had residual gas working out. My best guess is that you would probably be OK if you decided to drop the pressure some. It would probably add to your lift pump life and help with a larger flow port should the pump ever quit. The filter efficiency should also be greatly improved now that they are fluid packed. I figured it would come around. :D :D
I got some info on the fuel temps but will post it on the other thread.
Chris,
Still no air. :D :D
abear:Whats the difference reading off the Mega bleeder port as opposed to the schrader valve?
I'm still waiting for JK's gauge adapter thingy so I can read off the valve locale.
I'm thinking I'm getting a higher reading since its before the filter media.
Blake
Some food for thought:
Just got a call from a customer from NC who has 23k on his Mega filter as a primary installation. He also has a buddy up in CT? who installed one as a primary. Neither have any stalling.
As a primary, it is tougher to bleed, and in reality, a pre-fill through the bleeder port may be best.
I should note that the one with 23k has a 70 gallon in bed tank so suction head is likely minimal on his setup. I hope to get one of these guys up here to post soon...
John,
Along the same line of thought, I've thought about bypassing the OE filter to see if it reduced and/or eliminated the gas. Has anyone tried this?
JK wrote in part:
As a primary, it is tougher to bleed, and in reality, a pre-fill through the bleeder port may be best. After reading that CAT strongly advises against pre-filling
filters, I did the following when I could not prime my
pre-filter.
When I had my primary filter set up before the
OEM without benefit of a primer, I drilled an old
gas cap and stuck in a long stem tire valve to move
fuel from the tank to prime the filter. A bit
of silicone sealed around the brass stem made
it air tight.
I used a bike pump to push air. It worked like
a charm. It did not take long to fill the filter
and have diesel flowing from the bleeder. It is
not advised to use your air compressor, so
the bike pump was simple solution.
http://members.cruzio.com/~quailman/gascap.jpg
[ 06-10-2003, 12:54 PM: Message edited by: 56Nomad ]
For those NOT familiar with my system, pre filling the housing is not the same as pre filling the filter. Filling through the bleeder is no different than having a second point of entry to the dirty side of the element...
56 Nomad,
I understand and agree with CAT's position on NOT prefilling the fuel filters - but in the situation where you were using the CAT as a primary filter, even if you prefilled the CAT primary - the OEM Racor as a secondary filter should catch any contaminants introduced as a result of the prefill (as long as the particles are >5 microns ;) tongue.gif ).
The air valve in the old filler cap is a slick idea though - great thinking.
mdrag
chuntag95
06-10-2003, 15:32
I didn't have a spare cap, so I used a red shop rag and a compressor. Most of the air came back out, but it did get the job done. I have my bleeder pump installed now, but that will probably change before I ever get to use it on a filter change. :rolleyes: This is the last mod for a while unless a cool fuel cooler comes out. tongue.gif
NWDmax,
The vac gauge on the filter bleeder reads a little higher than it would at the schrader. I still plan on using the JK gauge when it's ready so I can check the Mega filter restriction and check downstream pressures. I have 0 PSI at the Mega bleeder so the pressure between the mega and the LP pump should be about .75 - 1"HG vac. I presently have about 8300 miles on the Mega and see no noticable restriction increase since the filter was new. I think this filter will run a
L-o-n-g time. :D John ?
a bear(finally got it right) smile.gif
I will dial it down a bit and see what happens.
I appreciate everyones help on this!!
JK:when might I expect the schrader adapter/gauge package?
My cousin got his Hot juice today and thanks for taking care of him.
I think I'm as excited as he is! :D :D
Blake
I'm at 9k now with mine. Ordinarily, I'd change both filters with the Rendezvous trip coming up along with the Pull Off, but I just did the OE spin on. Couldn't see running that one past 9k although it seemed OK on the restriction.
If Ray can run 23k (primary installation) on his filter toting RV's for a living (read as lots of gallons of throughput) and running truck stop fuel, I think I underestimated the service interval as a secondary...
What to do, what to do????? I posted about 10 days ago about my no start problems. Basically it went 1,200 miles from first installation (post OEM) to the first no start. Since then, I have had 5 or more no starts per tank of fuel, or about 350 miles.
I have narrowed it down to the first start in early morning after a night temperature of about 25 degrees cooler than the daytime high. With temperatures of 90 to 100 degrees, it seems to be worse.
Should I by pass the Mega filter for now or is there some other low cost fix. I just cannot depend on the truck to start every time. It is getting old bleeding the truck in my suit every other morning and even one day at noon at a restaurant.
Help please. I like the filter but I cannot live with this!!!
Clear hose from EDU to the OEM filter is the best starting point. Something must have changed to allow air in. Mdrag was telling me that if he hadn't heard about air in the filter, he'd never have known as he had never checked prior to hearing of this...
TC,
My personal feeling is that I wouldn't be
putting up with stalls and bleeding. Not all the
MEGA owners are having this problem, but those
who are experiencing air issues, it must be
frustrating.
A good option for those who want to keep their
MEGA filters but are not inclined to add further
modifications to the fuel system......
Move the MEGA to a pre-OEM location so it will
function as the primary filter. I am not aware of
anyone who is having air problems with the
MEGA installed as a primary filter. JK just reported that
he has some customers who are over 20,000 miles
on their MEGA's installed as primary filters. That's
excellent news.
Because of stalls and air, Manfred (Member # 8303)
has decided to remove his post OEM MEGA and replace
it with a Racor Assembly to see if that solves his problems.
The experiments continue............. :D :D :D
[ 06-11-2003, 07:33 AM: Message edited by: 56Nomad ]
TC:I had the same experience as you did at 5 to 600 miles after the initial Mega install.I don't know if the filter media goes through some kind of "break in" or what but after installing the lift pump my trapped gases/air/outgassing problems have stopped.When I first intalled the lift pump I was still getting air but no more no starts and/or stalls after start up.In the last 3 or 4 days I no longer see any air in my clear Mega bleeder hose and no more bubbles at the EDU/FICM outlet.I don't know why it would take days to get all trapped air out but I only drive short distances so maybe that has something to do with it.I opted to buy the lift pump instead of settling for a filterhead and filter combo that lets the air by.Its a peace of mind thing to me and no air can't be a bad thing imho.
One thing we can all agree on is that the additional filtration no matter where or what kind it is can only be good for our engines. smile.gif
svpdiesel
06-11-2003, 14:42
Changing from the Mega to something else does not solve the air problem- it just lets the air go through the filter and into the injection system. That's what the stock filter is doing right now. Same result if you make the Mega a pre-oem setup. Plus, if the stock filter starts disintegrating, there's nothing downstream to catch it.
Passing gas eliminates any inconvinience right now, but if the air is gradually eating up the injectors and pump, the inconvenience will turn out to be much more signifigant...
svpdiesel,
I agree. And the vapors will probably be increased and larger with the additional vac/outgassing from the Pre OEM filter adding more restriction. :eek:
svpdiesel
06-11-2003, 15:43
A Bear- good point, now that you mention it... just adds more incentive to go "post-al"
Ok, has it been fully determined if the gasses being collected are "Air" or "Fuel Vapor". I don't even pretend to know what the impact of "Air" on the system would be. However, if the gasses are "Fuel Vapor" I don't see what the issue is. Under pressure the "Fuel Vapor" will return into solution. Fuel vapor is a non issue other than it's causing a stall/non-start.
Plus, if the stock filter starts disintegrating, there's nothing downstream to catch it. :eek: :eek: :eek:
Holy cow....... now beside air we have to start
worrying about disintegrating RACOR filters...
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
JakeG,
Dave Lewis
The air may not be damaging the portion of the injector that goes into the cylinder but what about the part of it that bleeds the pressure off of the servo piston? The air could come out of solution when the ball lifts off of its seat damaging it at this point. I believe the pressure at this point would be roughly atmospheric??? Having the ball damaged would allow the injector to return fuel causing the servo piston to open.
Vapors will not go into solution near as readily as it comes out of solution. Especially with the higher heat and less retention time at the injection rails. It MAY compress the bubbles somewhat but what about the inpact of the sudden release. Shouldn't be no need to worry with a fluid packed system as liquid will not compress to a smaller volume.
JakeG and all,
Other than outlining theories, no one on this forum has been able to prove that
this naturally occuring air or vapors in our fuel is doing any damage to the injectors
or is a significant problem.
Engine stalling and passing gas by having to bleeding it, is not a desirable
option for most folks. Changing from the MEGA to another filter system, or
moving the MEGA to a pre-filter is one way to eliminate the stalls and
air bleeding problems. Other clever folks are attemping to fix the MEGA
air/vapor trapping issue and their solutions are pretty interesting, but time
consuming.
In my humble opinion, the ONLY reason I can see adding an other fuel filter to
our trucks is to better filter the fuel.
Now a big question for the guys who have
the MEGA filters intalled Post OEM and are
NOT trapping air/vapors. Are you concerned
about that? You're in the same boat as us
Racor guys that let the air/vapors pass through
the system :eek:
Let the experiments go on.............................
[ 06-11-2003, 05:27 PM: Message edited by: 56Nomad ]
JakeG,
Dave Lewis
The air may not be damaging the portion of the injector that goes into the cylinder but what about the part of it that bleeds the pressure off of the servo piston? The air could come out of solution when the ball lifts off of its seat damaging it at this point. I believe the pressure at this point would be roughly atmospheric??? Having the ball damaged would allow the injector to return fuel causing the servo piston to open.
Vapors will not go into solution near as readily as it comes out of solution. Especially with the higher heat and less retention time at the injection rails. It MAY compress the bubbles somewhat but what about the inpact of the sudden release. Shouldn't be no need to worry with a fluid packed system as liquid will not compress to a smaller volume. While our system may be OK by design. (Which I would need to here from GM) I'm not willing to take that gamble. While no vapor can't hurt we are still unclear as to will vapor pose a long term problem.
Again, We are not in the same boat. The Racor doesn't stop free vapors and just lets them through by head DESIGN. Good or bad ? No body knows.
If the Mega is not trapping free vapors post OEM it is because there is none.......Due to head DESIGN.
I find it hard to believe anything survives out of solution at 23,000 psi. Remember "states" in chemistry? Gas.... liquid....solid. Compress a gas and it goes into liquid. How do you think my liquid propane stays liquid in my tank? Doesn't take a whole lot of pressure to do it. Look at a bottle of carbonated water or soda. Not a whole lot of pressure there holding the gas in solution either.
The point is, I don't think air or vapors in natural quantities are an issue. The compression deals with it well before getting even close to the injectors.
I do not like sending gulps through the high pressure pump more than necessary though. That's why I think we should get off the trapping and removing air kick and continue keeping it flowing in natural quantities like all other diesels in this world do.
Constant beeding is worse than stock non bleeding IMHO cause you are playing with trapped air and air pockets all the time.
Think us Racor guys need a Mega as a post Racor filter to catch the pieces? ;)
Posted by 56 Nomad:
Holy cow....... now beside air we have to start worrying about disintegrating RACOR filters...
I experienced a failure of the OEM Racor where the metal end cap separated from the filter media and the media was completely distorted and torn. I alluded to a 'safety net' feature months ago in my reasons for going with a post OEM Mega install:
Racor,
Thanks for your thorough explanation on the Dmax fuel filtering system. I'm sorry to say that as a 'real world' user, I do not share the same confidence in the ability of the OEM fuel filtering system since I experienced a significant fuel filter problem on my Dmax.
Being a 5 percenter, I decided to add a second fuel filter to minimize the chances of this happening again. Kennedy's MegaFilter/Baldwin arrived Friday and was installed this past weekend as a post OEM fuel filter. I plan to change the OEM/Megafilter based on fuel filter restriction measurements using the OEM port at the front of the engine.
Why did I choose post OEM instead of pre OEM?
1) The 2001-2003 2500HD/3500 Dmax fuel filtering system was DESIGNED AND SOLD with ONE fuel filter. From this, GM and/or Bosch and/or Racor must feel that the Racor single fuel filter is adequate and could do the job with ALL PARTICLE SIZES for 15K miles (the GM recommended change interval). So why not use the Racor as a very good pre-filter, and add a second higher efficiency filter after the OEM?
2) If you want to filter down to (2) microns, the Racor OEM apparently isn't capable of this level of performance. It has already been shown by a few forum members (and warnings from filter manufacturers) that a 2 micron primary fuel filter installed pre OEM clogs too early, so a post OEM 2 micron filter is the logical remaining choice.
3) Regarding warranty concerns: I'd rather take my chance arguing that extra fuel filtration DID NOT cause a problem...
4) The primary OEM should start to clog/restrict sooner than the secondary MegaFilter due to the smaller filter media area and exposure to larger particles. This assumption relies on the OEM being an efficient filter and little should get by to the MegaFilter. The much larger MegaFilter would function as a true 'safety net' in the event that the OEM failed. mdrag post 2/3 down the page (http://forum.thedieselpage.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=005391#000026)
I have about 1.5K on the post OEM Mega and have not had a single hiccup. If it wasn't for the multiple posts on the air in fuel subject, I would never have checked - and yes, I do get some 'air' each time I've checked.
Mdrag stated...
I experienced a failure of the OEM Racor where the metal end cap separated from the filter media and the media was completely distorted and torn.How could that have happened? Nothing I can think of that occurs in the filter could cause such a thing.
I'm thinking two things,
It was made that way (factory defect)
It came apart when you opened it?
You know there is an issue with the inner plastic insert that sometimes slips and allows the housing to spin without the center turning. Is it possible that tore the inside up when you initially removed it?
This just doesn't sound like something that would happen just sitting there with fuel running through it.
And the caption should read ???
=> http://borgman.enquirer.com/img/daily/1999/08/080999borgman_150x92.jpg
Mac :D :D :D
uh MAC... I can't read it. smile.gif
IIRC BROKERS used a pre-filter and kept the OEM as final filter. He would be "passing gas" also in this setup, and his fuel system has gone well over 400,000 miles in his 01 DMAX while replacing 1 injector.
Putting a vapor in solution is completely different than keeping one in solution. Separating gas properties and turning gas into a liquid requires the use of a cryogenics and SUSTAINED high pressure. Something we don't have in our systems. Although some vapor would return to solution given our pressure conditions dew points on gas can be lowered to levels as low as 1/2 #/MCF and you would still have vapor. How much is really hard to tell. On a separate note I would not even try to guess the bubble size going to the injection pump but if they are large leaving the EDU ? The thing about it is no one knows for sure but no air can't be bad. I also agree that continous bleeding can be frustrating which is why I decided on the lift pump. I feel like the recent threads have been very educating and usefull to all. But untill someone comes up with more information we are doing just what Mackin said. Beating a dead horse. I think I will be hanging up my whip now. :D :D
chuntag95
06-12-2003, 07:47
Wait, I got it! :D We just drop a couple of Gas-X tablets in the tank when we fill up! :eek: It works for me. tongue.gif
http://members.cruzio.com/~quailman/Beat.jpg
Entrained air escaping out the bleeder port! :D :D :D
How often do you have to beat on it?
Originally posted by 56Nomad:
http://members.cruzio.com/~quailman/Beat.jpg Oh ya that is funn'ie ......
Mac :D :D :D
SoMnDMAX
06-12-2003, 11:57
Hoot, give it up already. Sheesh. http://zrxoa.org/forums/images/smilies/pokeit.gif :rolleyes:
Can't help myself. ;)
Hey, you're running one. No wonder you're all over me.
I knew that there are connoisseurs involved in our gas/filter issue. As stated above,
"On a separate note I would not even try to guess the bubble size....."
I can tell you that a good champagne has manny small bubbles and the cheaper ones have larger ones. I didn't have the patiens to riddle the wine bottles daily for a year or so during a secondary fermentation process and chose to inject CO2 into the wine using equipment of my own design. Result: My bubbly tasted good, but had large bubbles.
I second any statement here, that small bubbles are good and if they won't stall my truck, I'll have a blast!
May be the Mega filter could give me smaller bubbles in the bubbly?
Hoot you remind me of a washing machine.
You agitate! :D :D tongue.gif tongue.gif
Its all in fun dude.
Besides I like Banjo's
No "air" here.
Your just po'ed cause you got the wrong one and now you are justifying why you bought it.
My filter is better than yours!!!! tongue.gif tongue.gif
We shall see :D
Sample taken..... out tommorrow.
What's a good reading so I know what to post? tongue.gif
A lot of 5 mic particles would be good! tongue.gif
pinehill
06-12-2003, 18:17
I'd bet that hoot still remembers the scolding he got from his kindergarten teacher, and that he sends her nasty letters every so often. tongue.gif
Play fair now pinehill. I don't see Mega in your signature tongue.gif
1300 + miles to Missoula in 21hrs, no bleeding, 2 fuel stops and low fuel light on 10 miles before Missoula. Bet I started/stopped my truck 6 times at the campground showing stuff...
Cracker Barrel is calling for brefus...
Hey! Wha's the deal? We thought MORE POWER was cookin those brats for Breafus!HA!
zip
No, Howie's the chef. Denny fills in as backup.
Howie did pretty good as he cooked up 5 dozen or so, and only lost the hair on the back of one hand :eek:
I talked to a fellow this weekend that is pretty schooled in fluid dymamics and chemistry.
He says the vacuum and added heat definately can lead to air/gas issues. He does some experimemnts where vapor lock is a big problem and the way they get around it is to "push" the specimen through the filter media rather than "pull" it.
I think removing the vacuum and possibly better fuel cooling is a very good thing. Even with a setup that doesn't trap vapors, I don't think the fuel level inside the filter canisters are close to the top.
So Hoot- does that suggest a lift pump?
zip
Originally posted by zip:
So Hoot- does that suggest a lift pump?
zip Yes it does and I think the guys doing the lift pump exercises here are not waisting their time.
I agree. But don't the systs with lift pumps usually install a water separator filter in front of the lift pump, and then the primary, smaller micron filter just before the injectors?
( I guess I'm thinking about marine diesels, but a diesel fuel delivery system shouldn't differ too much, should it?)
zip
I just got back from a 200 mile fishing trip and have not a trace of air.
Non in the FICM to Stock filter and non in the clear Mega bleeder line.
FWIW the lift pump was the only thing that really had any effect on the amount of vapor/gases/whatever I was trapping.
Now just need to swap out the clear diagnostic lines and on to the next thing! :D
Blake,
That's great news!! I'm just about done with my lift pump install. I cant't wait to be gas free. smile.gif
jb:Dialed my pressure back to to 1 psi as measured at the Mega bleeder port and still no build up after a 100 mile drive yesterday.
Needless to say I'm totally satisfied! :D :D
Blake
chuntag95
06-16-2003, 18:49
I have completed the fab of my box and the filter/lift pump assembly. My pressure switch arrived in the big brown truck (the last part I needed, YEA! :D ), so all I have left is powder coat the box (no rusting allowed), wire up the power and hook up the fuel lines. All in a days work, right. smile.gif No Air, HERE I COME! :D :D
Go Chris!
Happy trails. :D :D
chuntag95
06-16-2003, 21:51
Hey,
Check out the latest rev of my filter/lift pump assembly. I have pics of the backplate, cover, etc. I am going to powder coat or use the rubber undercoating on it tomorrow so I can get it installed. Pictures of lift pump and filter assembly (http://community.webshots.com/album/76860708jBGVyT)
I will take some pictures of it then as well. I almost want to take off work tomorrow to finish this and be DONE. :D
Looks Good Chris...Nice Work! :D
Awesome,you'll get'ter working no matter what !!!!! :rolleyes:
http://asktheplumber.co.uk/images/bootsdowntoilet-small.jpg
Mac :D :D :D
chuntag95
06-17-2003, 09:13
You got that right Mac! :D As Hank Williams Jr. said, "I never give up and I love a good challenge!" Of course, he was talking about women. ;) I saw a picture you would like about making it work. Had one forklift with a part on it at max height, being lifted by a second forklift that was also at max height. I wouldn't want to be the driver of the one in the middle. :eek:
We have a couple of things in the works now. The long nipple only extends the intervals for those with problems, so that seems to be out.
We are investigating some form of a check valve. This would not cure the presence of gasses, but may eliminate the no starts.
I think that in reality, we will be seeing a lift pump in our future as the fuel system vacuum appears to be approaching 1/2 atmosphere in certain conditions.
Anyhow, 21 hrs to Missoula, 12 hrs to Denver, and 15 hrs back to Loyal, and not one no-start and I never touched my bleeder the whole 3300+ miles...
maxamillion
06-22-2003, 13:49
Smitty31 Installed mega filter at 106,000 miles as primary filter oem secondary ran 25,000 miles no air problems.I changed filter to secondary position oem primary,replaced with new baldwin,now have 7900 miles on it. NO AIR PROBLEMS. Put it on your truck follow instructions carefully.
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