You won't believe this one, Help!

[Mudflap]

On the evening of Nov 22 I was going east on Ohio 5 about 6:30pm, it was snowing and raining and generally miserable. OH 5 is a 4 lane undivided road. Some nitwit going west dropped an engine off the back of a pick-up truck and he disappeared. Another driver in a Hyundai going about 45 hit the engine which destroyed his car and knocked the engine into my lane and into my truck like a bank shot. I didn't know what happened until I got out and saw this engine wedged under my left front suspension!!! It toasted the main cross member and the left front lower control arm along with the front differential and skid plates. The dealer says it needs a new frame. The Ins Co. says they will only pay to have the frame replaced from the factory weld forward a difference of about 4G's. I don't know what the good repair is here. Is it OK cut and weld a frame on this truck? The dealer says thay can get a half frame from a flood truck that was totalled and weld that in. This dealer has a good body shop and they do a lot of truck work but I would sure would appreciate some insight.

[ 12-05-2002: Message edited by: Mudflap ]</p>

[car of the week]

THE FRAMES ON THESE TRUCKS ARE MADE IN 3 SEPARATE PIECES FOR THAT REASON. THEY ARE HYDROFORMED FOR STRENGTH AND CAN BE PIECED TOGETHER TO SAVE YOU MONEY WITHOUT COMPRIMISING STRENGTH. I WOULD SAY LET THEM CUT IT IF YOU FEEL CONFEDENT IN THERE WORK. THE ONLY OTHER PROBLEM IS WHEN YOU TRY TO GET RID OF THAT TRUCK YOU MAY RUN INTO PEOPLE SAYING THAT THERE WAS FRAME DAMAGE AND IT COULD EFFECT THE VALUE OF YOUR TRUCK. ASK YOUR DEALER WHAT THEY WOULD DO IF WERE TO BE TRADED IN AND THEN GO BACK TO YOUR INSURANCE COMPANY AND SEE WHAT THEY HAVE TO SAY. FIGHT EM' TILL THE END. SORRY ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED, WRONG PLACE AT THE WRONG TIME. :confused:

RYAN

[62dog]

Mudflap
Just make sure you get an entire front modular component, not just the corner which is damaged. The front mod is welded to the midrail, the midrail is what determine reg cab, ext cab or crew cab. One thing I would be concerned about is the wax coating on the frame. After welding/grinding the corrossion protection would be compromised. Formet Industries(where they make the frame) dips the entire frame in a hot wax solution, as far as I know the only supplier/manufacturer to this process.
I would be curious as to the cost of an entire frame, you would be surprised how inexpensive GMs cost for the frames are.

[ 12-05-2002: Message edited by: 62dog ]</p>

[c5dura]

Interesting info on the wax coating. I recently blew power steering fluid all over the driver side front rail during an accident. After I got done power washing all the stuff off, I'm down to bare metal in large areas.

I told the body shop to re-paint those areas. Is this okay, or should they 'wax' instead?

(truck is back in the body shop at the moment for some additional paint work from the accident)

[ 12-05-2002: Message edited by: c5dura ]</p>

[Paintdude]

They will have to battle me in court before they weld on my frame of a 6500+ lbs truck..There is no way a body shop can do a approved weld on that frame, NO WAY..The only way that frame can or should ever be welded is by a "licensed certified welder", subcontactor...I would get ahold of the attorney general and tell them what the insurance company is doing to you..

It just makes me sick when insurance guys who have never worked on a car in thier life are telling you and the shop how to fix the truck..

You go by the shop recommendations and screw the insurance company...Have them put that flood truck frame under it THE WHOLE THING...DO NOT WELD ON THE FRAME!!!!!!

They are playing with your life here..don`t let them do it...

[lonestarduramax]

I would beg to differ on the fact a body shop can't weld together a frame. We shorten/lengthen frames on new medium and heavy duty trucks on a day to day basis. Most quality body shops from the commercial truck side do have the ability to to excellent frame work. It all depends on the quality and experience of the guys you have working for you.

[Paintdude]

You better be licensed and certified before you weld on mine and have good liability insurance..

How many certified welders do you have in your shop?

I have seen what uncertified welded frames do..They Crack and break..

[sdaver]

YOUR TRUCK IS WORTH LESS NOW EVEN WITH A PERFECT REPAIR.........ASK FOR DEMAND AND GET A DEPRECIATION SETTLEMENT.............MOST COMPANIES HAVE TO BE PUSHED.....I GOT 15% OF THE TOTAL COST OF THE REPAIR.........HEY GET A NEW FRAME..........DAVE

[waterlogged]

I have replaced many frames on these trucks and have done both complete and weld in sections, Either way will work but I would definetly prefer a complete frame. A body shop price for a new frame for your truck is about $1500.00. And the time to do either would be very similar, since most all the hard work involves the front suspension and engine/trans. Something to consider is that GM doesnt sell the front section for these trucks(or the middle either), only the rear half. Because of this it makes me wonder how an insurance company could require this proceedure. You would have to use a used frame to do this and will then have the wrong vin # stamped on it for ever.

[buelldude]

Hey,
So are all the frames like this? Sorry this might be a dumb question but I never knew it. Why can't they do a full frame(one complete frame)?

[lonestarduramax]

Our shop has 2 certified welders. And yes we have very good liablility insurance, that up til now I haven't touched, or lost sleep over anything going out of the shop. As for these these pick-up frames in question, we don't touch them, not part of the business we are in, but I wouldn't have a problem letting my body shop do the work on my D-max if I was in the same situation. With the one piece frames on the Mediums and Heavy trucks we work on, not only is the weld important, but also the geometry of the finished product. If everything isn't exactly in line, over time, especially in commercial applications, the strain on that area could cause serious problems. That's when you start to see cracks in the frame. We didn't spend 150 thousand dollars on a frame machine in our new facility because we do bad frame work. I agree you need to find a good shop with highly skilled welder. I just take offense to the fact body shops can't do frame work well.

[Paintdude]

lonestar, you guys are the exception to the rule then..There is always people out there that care and take pride in thier work..They are just very hard for the average guy to find, because they never get past the shop door from the office..

I have assisted on making Mack Semi trucks into tandem grain trucks.We would put new frame rails on both sides and splice-section them in at the cowl..This is the only way to let the frame flex and not break..Works excellent..If we just added to the rear of the frame they would break when dumping, some of the other guys have found that out the hard way.. :( I have redone P-30 frames after the big shops have welded them for FEDEX and they have broken.By using like kind material we have never had any kind of problems..Some are a bolt on fix, no welding required..

These new pickups have crush zones in the front that can be cut off and replaced, just the front 12" or so of the frame rail. The frame is in 3 sections, front mild steel,middle HSLA C-channel and rear section HSLA C-channel..Like watterlogged said the procedure is only for welding the rear section,like metals togeather ie:Mid and rear section, not the front and mid section..That must be why GM only offers the rear as a section replacment..and like you said, proper alignment is a must before welding....

The smaller vehilce line is where most of the liability is IMO. Commercial repairs are done for people in bussiness like you and I making the relationship better than just dealing with the general public, because they have more of a clue of how it is in bussiness..

Live long and prosper and thanks for being a repair shop that cares.. smile.gif

[62dog]

c5dura
I doubt that the body shop would be able to apply the wax at the same temp as Formet. Another interesting property of the wax is that they say it will flow. If the frame is scratched/nicked the wax will fill in the bare metal, it will only be a thin membrane but I think thats pretty cool stuff.

Ever look at how much welding there is on these frames. What do you think keeps the front mod and midrail together... :rolleyes:

Everything is engineered and tested to extremes. Exsample: In the midrail there is an oblong hole used for stacking or tying down the frames(I forget exactly which) This hole size was decreased by approx 5x10mm. Before GM approved the change in size a Hump Test was preformed. Esentially a crash test.....sound pretty bloody extreme.

[Mudflap]

UPDATE - Had a meeting with the dealer who called in a welding specialist to evaluate what the Ins Co wants. The welder agreed that he did not recommend the fix they wanted to do. It just doesn't make sense to cut one perfectly good frame to weld the cut section into a damaged frame when we can use the good frame to replace the bad one and be done with it.

The dealer contacted the Ins Co and said they were going to replace the frame not weld it. (I told the dealer that if I had to I would pay the difference), one way or the other we are going with the whole frame. Thanks for your help and input, you guys really helped me make up my mind in this case. The sad thing is that the s**thead that dropped the engine in the road, destroyed one vehicle and damaged another, got away. I hope he got his a** kicked when he got home and the engine he was sent to get wasn't there, that's about all the satisfaction I will get out of this - Dan

[ 12-07-2002: Message edited by: Mudflap ]</p>

[Paintdude]

Sure am glad you are getting it worked out..By doing the right procedure, they might to be able to put your truck back into good pre-accident condition.

Good Luck.. smile.gif