Fifth Wheel Towing, Question [Archive] - TheDieselPage.com Forums

shadowcruise

02-27-2003, 23:46

I am intending to purchase a 40' 5er with a 18,000lb GVWR and a dry weight of 12,700lbs the hitch weight is 2,800 lbs. I have been looking at both the HD2500s and 3500s for a tow vehicle. I know I'm pushing the limits and would appreciate any opinions the group might have.

FisHn2DMax

02-28-2003, 01:38

Your numbers indicate a 3500 HD dually if you want to play it safe! I would also highly suggest a rear air bag system to level your truck when you drop that 5'er on her. You might be able to do it with a 2500HD with a few suspension mod's, but you'd be pushing the Edge of it's capacity. Why push the envelope! Play it safe and go with the 3500. It is better suited to handle this kind of load!

Good Luck! smile.gif

DonG

02-28-2003, 02:08

shadowcruise,
Unless there is something SUPER LIGHT about your 5th wheel; A 40 foot RV 5th wheel weighing only 12,700 lbs. with a hitch weight of 2800 lbs. is extremely hard for me to believe.

Before you buy any truck I would weigh that RV and not believe your salesman for one second. Even the UVW posted in the RV is suspect since that only represents "typical" RV's, not your specific trailer with all its options.

I suspect you are beyond the capacity of even the 3500. You may be into a mid-sized truck.

IF I'm wrong, sorry I scared you. But it is better to know for sure.

Don

moisheh

02-28-2003, 07:06

Under no circimstances should you consider towing a 40 ft. 5'r with a 2500. Your rig loaded would be over the capacity of a 3500. Many peolple with 40 footers have gone to mid sized class 5 or 6 trucks: IH, Freightliner, or even the F--d 550.

NoMo

02-28-2003, 09:15

I wouldn't even begin to consider a 2500 for such a job. Heck, my 27' triple-slide fiver only weighs about 9500# dry and the pin weight is less than 2000#. This small trailer will cause my truck to "squat" a few inches and you can definitely tell it's back there when towing.

Do yourself (and everyone else) a big favor and get a medium-duty rig to pull your RV. It'll last longer, be more safe, and less stressful for you. smile.gif

DMAX4LIFE

02-28-2003, 10:18

Yeah you might should look into a 4500 at least. These trucks are pretty affordable and very roomy inside which is always a plus. The only drawback is if you like leather you can't get it from the factory, but there are conversion companies all over the US to do this for you.

-Corey

Colorado Kid

02-28-2003, 11:07

By itself the hitch weight will put any 2500 HD over GVWR. If you throw in 200# for the truck mounted hitch it will also put the rear axel and tires overweight.

I've never seen or heard of a 5th wheel that had 5300# of carrying capacity...I agree with Don G and suspect the 12,700# number is WAY too low.

I believe this rig would be very marginal with a 3500...perhaps a regular cab 2WD 3500 without any extended range tanks, toolboxes etc.

If you want a D-max the 4500 is a resonalble choice. 40' trailers as a rule are beyond the capabillity of any pickup.

Having said that, BROKER routinely runs slightly heavier than your proposed load behind his D-maxes (3500s) and F-350 PSDs, apparently without any major problems.

Heartbeat Hauler

02-28-2003, 14:43

I'm running a ext cab 3500 with a 9000lb 5vr with a pin weight of 1900lbs. I just looked on the inside of my door and the GVWR is 11400lbs. This is the max the truck and everything in it should weigh. The cargo weight rating (sticker in glove box) says 3821 lbs. The truck itself weighs about 7600lbs. I guess what I am gettin' at is if you add 2800lbs of pin weight that leaves only 1000lbs for you & passengers, gear, tools, fuel...etc. Cuttin' it kinda close.
No way on the 2500.
JP

Bobcat698

02-28-2003, 15:03

WE pull this rig:

http://www.bbar10.com/storefront.jpg

We weighed it on the scale in Tomah Wisconsin & the Truck & Trailer combined was a shade under 25,000lbs.
We had over 7000 on the trucks rear axle, we had several containers of gasoline & propane in there besides the weight of the gooseneck.
From the front of the gooseneck to the back of it is 38'.

The truck handled it VERY well & pulled it nicely.
Going down the mountains wasn't nerveracking either, very nice with the grade Braking.

Garrett

mowser

02-28-2003, 15:24

I have to agree with "Colorado Kid", and I would suggest that you either look at a 5th wheel in the 14,500 lb. GVWR range, or look at the Chevy/GMC 4500's with the D/A combination for a tow vehicle.
I have a 35' Prairie Schooner (14,500 GVWR) which I pull with a 2002 Chevy ExtCab 3500 4X4, and I'm very close to both the GVWR (11,400 lbs.)& the GCWR (22,000 lbs.) of the truck.
The manufacturer's weigh these 5th wheels without "options" and unless it is stated as "wet" weight, without water or propane, and that can add several hundred lbs.........So therefore I think that the best thing to do when looking for a tow vehicle, is to look at the Gross Vehicle Weight Rating, (18,000 lbs. in this case) of the 5th wheel, rather than at the "Dry Weight", (12,700 lbs. with a hitch weight of 2,800 lbs. for a total of 14,500 lbs.in this case).

mowser ;)

shadowcruise

02-28-2003, 16:39

I know what you mean about RV Dealers. I don't trust them either. I got my specs from the manufacturer and am assuming they aren't misprepresenting the the facts.

http://www.alfaleisure.com/2003_toy/toyfloor.asp

I'm getting the picture that a 2500HD is out of the question but I would like to avoid a 4500 if possible, insurance et.

:eek: :(

Viking

02-28-2003, 19:59

Garrett, I do not think you really understand what you are doing and how dangerous that combination is on the road!

Lone Eagle

02-28-2003, 20:39

NoMo, Have you weighed your trailer. A few inches is 3 or more. 2K pin weight = 2" on my 2500HD. Later! Lone Eagle

Bobcat698

02-28-2003, 23:37

Hey Viking, why is it so Bad?

The truck is rated for 22,000 GCVWR...

You can pretty much go safely 20% over what the truck is rated at...

We pulled this same trailer with a 2000 NON-HD 2500, we didn't have as much stuff, & we had a 6.0L manual.

The DURAMAX did great & we had no problem stopping the rig, hardly had to use the brakes at all in the mountains.

Believe it or not, the truck HELD overdrive almost all of the time...

Garrett

FisHn2DMax

03-01-2003, 00:13

Don G & Coloradokid,

I too was having trouble believing a 5300 lbs payload capacity of this trailer, until I looked at the link Shadowcruise posted of his trailer specs. It's a huge MEGA sized toy hauler! Now it makes total sense!

ShadowCruise:
WOW, that's one nice trailer! Since this 40' toy hauler has so much hitch weight, and you don't seem to want to go to the 4500, you may want to consider a < 35' toy hauler that has about the same toy capacity and could easily be towed with a 3500 and possibly a 2500HD? It's that hitch weight that concerns me on that big bad boy!

Good Luck!

;)

shadowcruise

03-01-2003, 00:21

Mowser,

How does your 5er tow? What has your experience been towing 14,500 GVW?

glamisboy

03-01-2003, 00:51

The mfg. said our 40' weighed 12,500 empty. I load 5 quads, 1 golf cart, 120 gallons fresh water, 56 gallons of gas & everything else needed to "ruff it". Our D'Max does an awesome job, and the brakes work outstanding. Never once have I felt we were un-safe with this combo.

I have not had the combo weighed yet, but I suspect were probably pushing GM's specs. I'd pull this rig all the time if work didn't get in the way !

shadowcruise

03-01-2003, 01:13

FisHn2DMax,

Whats interesting is that the smaller toy hauler has a heavier hit weight. I figured it was due to the fact that there is less trailer behind the Xs. I figured once I got my bike on board it would lower the hitch weight on both trailers but more so on the 40'as the garage is cantilievered further off the Xs.

Maverick

03-01-2003, 02:21

Shadow,

I am not real fond of an RV wanting to act like a trailer. If you want to haul your toys and have a place to stay, check these out. The are nice reals trailers acting like RV's. These are nice. You also have a "lower center of gravity" with everything and they come in gooseneck or bumper pull. I think these will stand up to the road abuse better than an RV acting like a trailer. These are probably alot cheaper too.

http://www.trailersforsale.com/Campmaster_MURT_Fifthwheel_Specs.htm

http://www.trailersforsale.com/Campmaster_2.html

http://www.trailersforsale.com/Campmaster_7.html

http://www.trailersforsale.com/Campmaster_5.html

http://www.trailersforsale.com/Campmaster_9.html

http://www.trailersforsale.com/Campmaster_17.html

Let me know what you think.

Viking

03-01-2003, 06:22

Bobcat698, the "over 7000# on the rear axel" on a 2500 set the alarm off for me.

Bobcat698

03-01-2003, 08:22

You do understand thats not 7,000lbs kingpin weight, that was the weight of the truck AND the trailer pushing on it....

I know its rated for 6,084 pounds & 20% over is 1200 pounds more, so we were about within spec.

AND, the truck is barely squatting so it isn't that bad...

mowser

03-01-2003, 11:58

shadowcruise,
I towed my 5th wheel through the Rocky Mountain passes to Vancouver BC and back, from my home ( close to Edmonton, AB) and the truck ran great (I was able to pass some cars and keep ahead of a semi that was trying hard to catch me smile.gif )

Going down the road my fiver weighs around 13,500 lbs.(water tank about 1/2 full and black/grey tanks empty),for a total (truck & Fiver) of around 21,500 lbs.....But the Gross Vehicle Weight Rating is "14,500 lbs." and the two axels are rated at 6,000 lbs. each.

mowser

yak ears

03-01-2003, 14:00

Here is a thought to consider, The pulling is the easy part, the stopping is the hard part. I tow a 32ft 5er. 12000lb max. with a 2002 2500HD Dura/M 4x4 crew cab. The advice to go bigger is one I think you should listen to. I know price is a real factor, In the end there is no price you can put on your loved ones or other people you may encounter on the road. I do not mean to preach just to give you more food for thought. Hope this all works out for you.

Mike

DonG

03-01-2003, 15:33

Bobcat698,

I am wondering where you obtained the the info that 20% over what GM has rated our truck for is "safe". GM rates our trucks for 22,000 lbs. plus 0.0 lbs. additional.

If you are over the manufacturers rated load, you are illegal. If you are illegal, then you are legally unsafe.

You can do what you choose with your truck, but you should not try to convince others that they will be "safe" violating legal limits.

I have seem too many stories on this subject after accidents have happened. Even if you were not the cause of the accident, if you are legally "unsafe", then you are considered to be a contributor to the accident.

Just my 0.02 cents.
Don

Redhawk

03-01-2003, 15:36

Just an example: my D\A 3500 pulls a 27 ft. fifth wheel with a CVW of 17,900 loaded with fuel, Propane, water, clothing, etc. and of course the rig pulls just fine configured as it is. While I do have some margin I don't think I would want to pull much more weight that, despite the fact that a lot of people are towing much more than I do without any trouble at all.

Husker Fan

03-01-2003, 19:04

Hey folks,

If someone is driving down the road with THAT much weight (like some have said they have), wouldn't the scale cops stop them?

Bush Pilot

03-01-2003, 20:09

YAK Ears

I think I have almost the identical setup. I would like to find out what your weight are and how it works. I haven't pulled my 5er yet.

NoMo

03-01-2003, 21:40

Lone Eagle-
I'm ashamed to say that I have not yet weighed the trailer and that I may have underestimated the actual pin-weight with the optional bedroom slide. McKenzie (Monaco) lists the "dry" pin weight as 1790 lbs.

I'd definitely say the truck drops more than 2" in the rear when the trailer is hitched. This really surprised me because this RV barely even "creaked" the springs on my previous SRW F350. Then again, thinking about the ride-quality difference between trucks, it's easy to see how the GM springs would be "softer". smile.gif

Maverick

03-01-2003, 23:37

Unrelated

Bush Pilot,
Know anyone looking for a nice 3500 Duramax plow truck?

shadowcruise

03-02-2003, 01:02

Maverick,

Thanks for the links, I'll check them out. Thanks everyone for your posts I need your opinions so that I can make an educated decision...

Shadowcruise

Bush Pilot

03-02-2003, 02:14

Maverick,

Looks like were neighbors. No I don,t not right off hand but will keep my ears open.

dmaxalliTech

03-04-2003, 20:33

I really hate to sound redundant, but i have to. I am looking to purchase 36' 5er with pin weight of 2100 and max gvw of 14000. I want to pull it with my short box CC. Any concerns? Best hitch to use?

DonG

03-04-2003, 22:44

dmaxalliTech,

The optimum pin weight for a fifth wheel trailer is 18-20% of the total weight of the trailer.

18-20% of 14,000 lbs. is 2500-2800 lbs. This puts a lot of weight on your truck? Make sure your truck is rated to carry it.

Of course you do not have to load the trailer to 14,000 lbs., but only you can judge what the trailer will weigh when loaded. Then you can calculate 20% of that weight for the best pin weight, and then determine if the tow vehicle is correct.

Good Luck, Don

PS... 2100 lbs sound very low for a 36 foot trailer.

dmaxster

03-04-2003, 23:05

I got the 2500HD.....and we have 7100 on rear axle with trailer with out trailer 2700 so if my math is correct that puts me at 4400 for hitch weight......it's 40 enclosed race car hauler.......never had a prob.....everything stock no mods on suspension....or airlifts....on it...nothing....all stock as mentioned....put 27000 miles on no probs...knock on wood....so it's up to you....Later

dmaxalliTech

03-05-2003, 07:48

Don, thanks for the info. I am getting the specs from brochure on trailer, who knows how accurate that is. I looked at the trailer yesterday and it looks like a big air dam. stands 12'6" at highest point and is 36' and change overall legth, salesman told me that people with lesser trucks pull these no problem. For what its worth, brochure says dry weight is 10,400lbs
reese 16k a good hitch?

wheeler

03-05-2003, 08:42

dmaxalliTech, by the way, in regards to hitch selection, since you're pulling with shortbox truck, you want to be sure you have sufficient clearance to turn sharply without the trailer hitting your truck's rear window. Many people say a sliding hitch isn't necessary but I like mine. I started with manual sliding Reese hitch and replaced that with automatic SuperGlide by PullRite. As this is getting off topic, if you want more info, email me. Good luck. --wheeler

NoMo

03-05-2003, 10:39

dmaxalliTech-
The RV salesman is there to sell you an RV. And it sounds like he'll lie to you (and others) to make that sale. :(

Get your hitch installed BEFORE you buy the trailer. Then, ask to take the trailer for a "spin" before purchasing it. Pull it to some scales and weigh it. I'd recommend not purchasing it if any of the weight limits of the truck are exceeded. However, that is your call. If the RV shop won't let you "test-drive" the trailer, go somewhere else to purchase.

As for hitch, the safe thing to do is buy a sliding one. Auto or manual- I hear both work OK. I still use the old fixed Reese 15K in my short-bed. Following installation instructions, I am still able to "jack-knife" the trailer without hitting the cab of the truck. My RV has an extended pinbox though.

BobNelson

03-05-2003, 11:34

ShadowCruiser...

I'm also thinking about a 5ver garage type toy box. The alpha rig is nice, but on the spendy side. Looking at the garage style because I don't want to sleep with the fuel fumes.

Take a look at the Artic Fox (northwood industries) in La Grande (just over the hill from you). While it is not up on the website, they are just about to push out a 38' garage TB.

I will call them this afternoon and see what the status is.

Maveric also gave a good link. He has a bunch of hauling exp, especially in back country. the campmaster site did not include a pic of the 5ver interior.

Mouser / Maveric... hope to see you this year at rv5. Really looking forward to some Moose Droul Beer.

[ 03-05-2003: Message edited by: BobNelson ]</p>

yak ears

03-05-2003, 11:50

Bush Pilot

Sorry I have not got back sooner. I have not had my 5er at scale yet, I have a model 2955Rl Montana dual slide, w/1238lb gross weight. w/add on weight approx.10,000lb dry. 12'6'' to top of a/c. I have pulled on several long hauls, And a lot of short ones less than 200mi. The combo pulls great the way I am set up as a matter of fact I have to watch my speed and usually set cruise control when it is possible. I have added a Banks exhuast brake and Monster exhuast every thing else is stock. I am very happy with my Max the only thing I will get now is a Transfer flow aftermarket fuel tank, 26gal on stock tank does not give me the range I want. Hope this answers some of your questions, Let me know if you need more info.

Mike

Bush Pilot

03-05-2003, 21:52

Yak Ears,

Thanks for responding. I too have a Montana 2955RL that I just bought and a 16K husky slider. I am planning to pull it with my 2003 D/A , CC, 4X4. When I started looking at the weight I though I might not have gotten enought truck but it sound like from your post that it works ok.