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Dimsdale
10-06-2003, 09:32
(this is also posted in the Members forum)

For the past couple of mornings (about freezing temps) I have had some odd symptoms that I am hoping someone may have input on.

When the "wait to start" light goes out, I start the vehicle normally, and it catches almost immediately, but there is very little clatter and some significant white smoke. Then the clatter suddenly starts, and the smoke goes away.

When driving away after 5 minutes or so of warm up, the response to the accelerator pedal was not normal; it would go up to maybe 1500 rpm, but the rpms would drop, particularly if I applied more "gas." This stumbling action went on for about a mile, then cleared up and the truck ran normally for my 50 mile commute. The idle was normal, and I could hear the turbocharger whistling normally (I assume).

First thoughts are glow plugs followed by the controller or relay (this is a 99 L65 Suburban with the 4L80E), but that should not affect the running after some warmup. That leaves the electronic controls for the pump, which the lack of advance on startup would support. I am sure that I have to check, clean and grease up all the connections, which I have neglected since the pump was replaced (along with the engine and turbo and lift pump!) back in December-January. It almost seems like something is just wet, then dries out and functions normally. I would suspect the filter, but since it cleared after warming, it would have to be due to waxing, and I use additive all year round, and it really wasn't that cold. I will definitely check the pump too.

No SES, and all guages are reading normally. The only thing I didn't check this morning was the after glow cycle, which I will check this afternoon after work. Probably though, sitting in the sun all day, nice and warm, all will be just fine.

Any thoughts?

Thanks in advance.

ucdavis
10-06-2003, 13:50
Were glow plugs & relay replaced w/engine? If not, maybe time.
Grounds are a problem that seems to come up more in the northern climes, maybe cuz of salt preps on the roads? Read moondoggie's DTC 35- Help thread for his effects from grounds.
You can buy an OBD2 code reader now for about $100 at most parts stores; BillH just did @ Kragen. This can give you valuable help here from TDP junkies by knowing you have particular codes or that you have none.

pannhead
10-06-2003, 15:32
you mentioned freezing temps....possibly a fuel heater problem ?

Dimsdale
10-06-2003, 16:17
Yeah, I was thinking along the same lines. I think the did reuse most of the electronics when they put in the new long block. I guess I should order a set of glow plugs from Kenney Diesel. I will check the connections etc. this weekend. I will try to feel the filter housing and see if it warms perceptibly. I can always use the block heater to help things along if necessary.

No problem starting or driving at any time this afternoon, air temp cool, maybe in the high 50s or low 60s.

Dimsdale
10-08-2003, 06:14
Naturally, it has been starting normally the past few mornings, and driveability has been perfect. The problem occurred after sitting all weekend on a dirt driveway, which is known for giving up lots of moisture.

I will keep you all posted.

tom.mcinerney
10-08-2003, 06:31
You mentioned engine grounds, which could slow lift pump. Might do check of fuel connections to filter assy; see if assy leaking, on older units the oring for heater may stop sealing and allow air in. Old glow controller maybe culprit for initial start, but fuel connection allowing air in more likely problem after warmup. Poor engine ground would affect both.

triggerman
10-08-2003, 20:04
Dimsdale,
Next time your try starting it cold , pull the water temp sensor off the top of the goose neck. It is this sender that advances the I pump (rattle) for cold starts. Kennedy once mentioned if you pull that plug off before you start it, The PCM will think it is super cold outside, there for it gives the I pump full addvance with full fuel charge.If that doesn't make it rattle, something else is wrong. Hopefully it's just that sensor . Once the engine actualy fires up, glow plug circuit is a non issue providing you have good compression in all cylinders.Good Luck

triggerman
10-08-2003, 20:07
Oh, one other thing, could also be a week battery or a week starter.

kowsoc
10-09-2003, 03:41
My .02,
I also would suspect the coolant sensor giving false signals to the PCM. Try unplugging it before starting and leave it off for the first part of your commute to see if the symtoms disappear.

Dimsdale
10-10-2003, 08:11
I will see what I can do. I do have the Autotap OBD2 reader setup, so I should be able to read the output of the water temp sensor and some other things.

I am beginning to think it is a wetness issue. The short lag between the engine firing and the clatter increasing is very short, and does not prevent the engine from starting in any way. The driveability issue has not resurfaced, even though it has been foggy as all get out the past few days. I will be checking all the connectors for good clean connections, and applying dielectric grease to all.

I will keep you posted! Thanks for the advice!

triggerman
10-10-2003, 20:50
Just a point of interest, In damp conditions you will be surprised to know the amount of water the CDR valve puts into the turbo from the block. I made up a separator loop with a drain and average about a shot glass of water drained for every 100 miles driven. Whether this slows cold fireing is a good question.

Dimsdale
10-14-2003, 11:57
Did it again. Truck started just fine on Saturday (driven on Friday), but left to sit over a rainy Sunday, it exhibited the same symptoms on Monday morning. Has to be a wetness issue.

I am starting to agree with triggerman about the possibility that the temp sensor may be contributing to this problem, as it is a little balky (stumbly, and won't take accelerator pedal input, but idle is fine, both high and low) until it warms up. I agree that the glow plug system is not likely to be at fault.

I will be digging in with the Autotap this weekend or sooner (had to do wife's truck's brakes this weekend). Going to pour over the service manuals tonight.

charliepeterson
10-14-2003, 18:58
At 40* you should get a fast idle untill the engine warms up. No pedal responce is strange though. Take a look at the small ground wire on top of the I/P for the PMD as well as the plug connection going to the Driver.

Dimsdale
10-15-2003, 06:50
Will do, Charlie! Thanks!

Rained like the dickens last night, but no problem starting or running this morning. Looks like it could be a condensation problem over a certain minimum time period. Sitting on a dirt driveway connot be helping this problem!

I will keep you posted.....