Towing Laws!

[fourtenposi]

Does anybody know what the laws are for towing reqarding a cdl. The reason I ask is because I read an article that said if you race for money(drag racing) that you are considered commercial and that you would be required to have a cdl. I know that if you have a combined weight of 26000 pound(truck and trailer) or that you pull a trailer over 10000 pounds that you need a cdl and that you would be required to carry a log. Here is a link to the website.

http://www.dragracingonline.com/deadon/vii_7-1.html

Any inputs?

[CaptainSir]

Welcome to the hassles of the commercial vehicle world. You're correct about the CDL requirements for single or combination units over 26,000 lbs gvw. Lots of additional requirements besides just getting the CDL such as: drug testing; annual DOT inspections of truck & trailer; medical certificate every 2 years, etc. For more info you can check the Federal Motor Carrier web site, "fmcsa.dot.gov" and go to "rules & regulations". (Good luck making any sense of these). You can also check with your State Patrol. They should be able to give you a comprehensive and easier to understand list of rules & regs that apply to you. Some state are much pickier than others about enforcement and many people don't go through the trouble to be technically legal, plus, I'm sure a lot of people probably don't know they're required to have a CDL. That's fine if you never get caught or get involved in an accident while operating as a commercial vehicle but you can be in for some major hassles and fines if you do get caught.

[Craig M]

There are lots of federal regulations for "commercial" carriers. Most hobbiests or RV'ers do not qualify as commercial. Am not familiar with drag vehicles. Getting the appropriate CDL is not to hard and is sometimes a good idea. Less arguing with the authorities on that issue. Save the arguing for weather you are a "commercial" vehicle or not. Written and drive test for the CDL are not that bad. Study the book, and do a little practice on the skills and most people will be ok. Having a CDL does not mean that you are considering yourself a commercial carrier. Do all you can to keep out of that catagory. A private citizen with a CDL can haul 80,000# on the road with out being considered a commercial carrier.

[CaptainSir]

Craig M is correct about hobbyists and RVers not being classified as commercial carriers. RVers are exempt from the CLD requirements as long as the units that they are driving/towing are registered as Recreational Vehicles. However, the minute you get involved in doing anything that you are doing to earn money, your vehicle becomes a "commercial vehicle". In "interstate commerce" (traveling across state lines), you are driving a commercial vehicle (assuming your doing any kind of business activity) if the vehicle is over 10,000 lbs! You don't need a CDL until you hit 26,001 GVW but you do need a DOT number and have to have the name of your business or your name on your vehicle.

Here in Minnesota, I know of State Troopers who have stopped and tagged drivers from out of state driving 1 ton duallys (over 10k gvw) hauling snowmobile trailers going to snowmobile races (for profit) because they didn't have DOT numbers or their business name on the truck. Sounds kind of petty but it happens. The rules may be different if you stay within your state boundries. Again, I'd check with your State Patrol for the most accurate info for your particular situation.

[letsgo]

Only in Canada.

I just found out that if your trailer, commercial or NON commercial or RV is over 4,600Kg or 10,120Lb you require an class "A" drivers licence which is for tractor trailers or the 18 wheelers, also your trailer requires a yearly inspection plus as a bonus you are required to pull in at all weigh stations.

The DOT has not enforced this standing law.

So what do you think about those apples.

good luck and drive safe

[OC_DMAX]

In California, a "Class A" license is required for any Trailer that is over 10,000 pound GVWR. There are two types of "Class A" licenses. One for Commercial drivers and one for Non-Commercial drivers.

If you have a 5th Wheel Trailer, there is small exception to the above. You can get an endorsement for the normal Class C dirvers license if you are over 10,000 pounds but under 15,001 pounds (GVWR).

Without a doubt, the vast majority of the people pulling a recreational trailer (normal or 5th wheel) in CA, that are over 10K pounds GVWR, do not have the correct drivers license. I know a lot of people who are pulling large recreational trailers and not one of them have the correct license.

[JD Diesel]

OC If this is true where do I go to take care of this. Cause I dont want to be a law breaker. YAA NOOO. JD ;)

[OC_DMAX]

OC If this is true where do I go to take care of this.

The wonderful DMV of course!!

Depending on the GVWR and type of your trailer (not the actual load but yes the GVWR), you may need to upgrade your license.

Follow this thread to a webpage on the CA DMV website that outlines the classes:

http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/dl648/dl648pt2.htm

I personally own a 5th Wheel with a GVWR of about 11K pounds (bought it used several months ago - prior to that owned a smaller 6K GVWR travel trailer). I was surprised to learn about the licensing requirements (stumbled onto it by accident), since no one has ever mentioned going to the DMV to take the tests (and I know a lot of people who have large/heavy toy hauler trailers). So I personally needed an endorsement to my Class C license and I took the test several weeks ago at the DMV office in Santa Ana.

What is the GVWR of your trailer and what type is it? (5th wheel or travel trailer)

[JD Diesel]

If my memory serves right it is 12500 pds fifth wheel. well have to check this out. What was test like and or about. :D JD

[JD Diesel]

Just looked at that site boy is that confusing. :confused: JD

[BozDMAX]

I read it this way:

If you are non-commercial, then you can tow a 5th wheel up to 15K or a regular trailer up to 10K on a standard Class-C license so long as your tow vehicle is at least 4K lbs.

Exceed those trailer limits and you will need a Non-commercial Class A if you are "not for hire".

So long as a person has an out of state license and plates and is non-commercial, I don't think they would need to worry about it. But it might be wise to actually obey the speed limits smile.gif

Somthing about watching a 18K lb. trailer moving down the road at 85 MPG might tempt a patrolman to "pile on" a few questionable charges just to raise the hassel factor. I probably would if I were the patrolman!

[OC_DMAX]

JD Diesel -

It took me several readings to get to the bottom of what is required. If your 5th Wheel has a GVWR of 12.5K pounds, then you will need to get the Recreational Endorsement to your current Class C license.


BozDMAX -

The way I understand the laws (and it is limited!), as long as you are not commercial, if you travel across state boundaries then whatever is required by your home state is acceptable in the state you are traveling in. So I need to follow CA licensing requirements while you need to follow those in NY. If you are commercial, supposedly those requirements have been standardized by the states.

For California, you almost have it correct, but you missed the small word at the end of the phrase which is "endorsement" for 5th wheels above 10K but less than 15K. From the CA DMV website "with a vehicle weighing 4,000 lbs. or more unladen, a 5th wheel travel trailer exceeding 10,000 lbs. but under 15,000 lbs. GVWR, when towing is not compensation and with endorsement" . If you don't have the endorsement, then you can tow up to 10K pounds GVWR.

Its confusing at best. Also, when I went down to the DMV to get the endorsement, the employees were lost too. Eventually, I worked my way up to a supervisor at the facility who knew what was required and everything smoothly from that point.


Regards,
Alan

[BozDMAX]

OC - Guess you are right, but when I search the CA DMV website none of the endorsements they list show anything to do with an RV over 10K.

http://www.dmv.ca.gov/dl/driversafety/scertend_guideline.htm#2_1

1) So, what endorsement did they give you on your license, and

2) Did you have to take a test or anything to get it?

John

[OC_DMAX]

BozDMAX:

On my CA License, I have Classes C and M1 (motorcycle) stamped on the front side. Recently added to the front side of my license were the words "Restriction 41". On the back side of the license it says " 41. May Tow Fifth Wheel Recreational Trailer Between 10,001 and 15,000 Pounds GVWR". Per the DMV office supervisor, without this on the license one is limited to a trailer (travel or 5th Wheel) of up to 10,000 GVWR max with a Class C license.

For the upgrade to my Class C license, I had to take a written test of about 25 questions with regard to trailering laws, safety and general common sense items. In addition, I had to re-take the written Class C (standard license) laws test.

All study guides for CA DMV tests are located here:

http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/pubs.htm

The one in particular that applies to the Class A Non-Commercial and the 5th Wheel Endorsement is located within the list above and the link is:

http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/dl648/dl648toc.htm


For the specific requirements for what is required for the 5th Wheel endorsement you can review this page:

http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/dl648/dl648pt5.htm


Like you found out the language is a little vague. I spent several days and a number of telephone calls researching this. As I mentioned early, the common "behind the counter" DMV employee did not have the correct answers. But after talking to a California Highway Patrol Commercial Enforcement officer and the DMV Supervisor, I got consistent answers on what was required. Plus there was a test in place to take along with language that eventually appeared on my drivers license.

What I have noticed in CA is the people that are really at risk (or violation of the DMV licensing laws) are the people pulling the large toy hauler trailers (not 5th Wheels). The majority of these large toy haulers are over 10,000 pound GVWR and to legally tow those trailers requires a minimum of a Non-Commercial Class A license. The vast majority of the people I know do not have this license. I would not want to be involved in an accident (with injury) and then have it surface I was driving with the wrong license (lawyers would love that one).

Regards,
Alan

[ 07-19-2005, 07:41 AM: Message edited by: OC_DMAX ]

[moondoggie]

Good Day!

I think fourtenposi's issue might be that most DOT's don't distinguish between a guy hauling commercial (who probably should meet all these requirements), a guy hauling a multi-million dollar top fuel dragster (who probably should meet all these requirements), & a guy who races a door-slammer most weekends, trying to win a couple hundred dollars to help cover his hobby's cost (who argueable shouldn't need to meet all these requirements).

What's happened in the last decade or so is that lots of normal folks are pulling trailers that are WAY bigger than before. States are just starting to try to figure out who they want to regulate & how heavily they want to regulate them.

Keep in mind, too, the DOT folks aren't always being given clear direction. It's the state legislatures that write the rules, & they often aren't very clear. :(

An unpopular point to ponder: My neighbor races is 300" alcohol dragster as many weekends as he can afford to (which is darn few, unfortunately). He pulls a 48' gooseneck enclosed trailer with a '91 7.3 PS. He's as long as lots of tractor-trailers on the road. Is it completely absurd to suggest that someone probably ought to make sure he's physically able to drive this rig, & his equipment is safe? My neighbor is one of the good guys, but it's an unfortunate fact of life that there are many who are not.

I think the easy & maybe best answer to this is to look at stats. These really big privately-owned trailers have been on the road long enough by now to have accident data. As far as I'm concerned, if folks pulling big trailers don't cause many wrecks and deaths, we should NOT regulate them in any way. In fact, if this is so, we should be requiring our legislatures to CLEARLY inform DOT folks, so they don't waste our time.

Please accept in the spirit given - free, open debate about an important issue of the day. :D

Blessings!

[OC_DMAX]

Moondoggie:

Not sure about other states, but CA at least has set the bar at 10,000 pounds GVWR. You go above that, you need to do something special (extra licensing) depending on trailer type. This seems like a reasonable approach.

Regards,
Alan

[letsgo]

to go one step futher

In BC or British Columbia, if you get stopped by the police and they find that the trailer weight exceeds the GVW of the truck you will be towed out of the province by an independent brocker at your cost.

good luck.

[dcalex]

This is a confusing subject that comes up every so often....I think it keeps coming up because it is confusing....terminology in the different states are different as well as the regs. This thread had come as close as any I've seen to boiling it all down.....good work guys. Of course the thrust of it pertained to Calif. I'm sure there's gonna be differences in the other states and provinces. This is just operator licensing....if you want to open an unsolvable thread, take on the different requirements for licensing the trailer itself and then taking it through the country.......YIKES :eek:

[6APPEAL]

Ok, I have a stupid question. I've check the requirements here in MS. I am not required to have a CDL. I plan on avoiding the obvious signs, such as sponsor stickers all over the race car or trailer (which was specifically mentioned in the article). Can I get a ticket or be harassed in another state for not having a CDL based on the laws in that state?

[CaptainSir]

Once you cross the state line, you are operating under Federal Interstate Commerce rules as opposed to Intrastate if you stay within the boundries of your own state. If your combined gross weight is 26,000 lbs or less you probably don't need a CDL but if your weight is over 10,000 you do need a US DOT number and are subject to the rules that pertain to how long you can drive without a break.

[6APPEAL]

Geeez, my 1/2 ton, trailer and car weighed over 10k. I never got harassed in LA, AL, TN, GA or KY with it. I step up to a bigger truck because I got tired of white knuckling the steering wheel. Now I'm going to run the possibilty of being harassed by every DOT officer that passes me :mad: ! I say this because 2 of my friends have now been pulled over by DOT while they were pulling their solid white, no stickers, enclosed car trailers. Here in the south you don't see DOT pulling over Grandpa driving the CC Dually pulling a 36 ft camper or Jim Bob pulling a tractor or dozer that weighs well over 10k (and I mean INTER or INTRA stat).

[cowboywildbill]

MD. PA. and Va. are screwing with all towed vehicles, and MD gets real POed when we have our trailers tagged in Maine "which is perfectly leagal". They are stopping lawn care utility type trailers, campers and horse trailers. They are checking for the tagged GVCW on the registrations. If you aren't tagged heavy enough you get a big fine (trailer tags come with different wieghts lbs. and it cost more the heavier the rating). I was told that I have to pull through the scales even when towing our fifth wheel camper. And my truck and trailers are non-comercial. Maryland say's it's just been a courtesy that they have been extending to Non-comecial vehicles and RV's until recently and now all must go through scales. I do save a lot of Money and hassel's by tagging our trailers in Maine and running Maine plates. That's why the big rigs do it. This crack down on the campers and little guy's is just a revenue process. The state and local govt's get Fed tax dollars for doing DOT enforcment. It's just another form of taxes. Drive safe.

[jaw111]

Will Bill here in md on my regerstation card for both my dully and trailer it has 00n/a for gvw,what the hell does that mean,and can you register your trailer for a lower weight so you don;t have to fool with dot,i have a 1 ton dully and a 42' goose neck car trailer that has 18000 on the sticker on the trailer,but i want to register it at 14500 to stay under the 26000 thanks

[cowboywildbill]

You can put whatever weight rating on your trailer and truck registration that you want. However if your trailer weighs 6,000 lbs and you tag it for 4,000 or less and get weighed, they will fine you for being overweight. And remember you should tag it for the empty weight plus the heaviest loaded weight total it will weigh GVW (Gross Veh Weight). I have my all trailers registered at the minimum weight 3,000 lbs. and my truck is registered for a GVCW (Gross Veh Combination Weight) of 21,000 lbs. I save a lot of money because I have three trailers. And the truck GVCW registration covers the weight of the truck plus the loaded weight of the trailer it is pulling. That way you aren't paying for the trailer tag every year $180.00 for 18,000lbs. each. If you only have one trailer it might not save you any money. I hope I didn't confuse you. But basicaly the registration's for the truck and trailer must have enough GVW between them for what ever your total weight is for both truck and trailer.