Kent: Splayed Main Caps, Machine shop information needed! [Archive]

john8662

06-14-2005, 10:48

Kent,

I'm running into problems getting my block modified to accept the splayed main caps and I'm out 3 months on this project now. Could you please respond with the contact information for your machine shop that modified your block? I'm in need of information to get two machinists together to collaborate on how-to's and answer some questions about the operation.

You can also contact me via email at awesomechevyman at yahoo.com

To exhange #'s and such.

Thanks!

roclongrider

06-14-2005, 14:05

john8662,
I'd be interested in that info as well. I'm getting ready to have some machine work done on my 6.5 and my shop is pretty green on these engines.
Barry.

Kent

06-14-2005, 23:01

John, you"ve got mail.
Cameron Racing Engines. Ask for Jim Cameron, he is the owner and the one that will do the work. He's not much on small talk though. Their no is 816-632-2233 Tell him that Kent refered you to him. He is a hell of a machinist.

Kent

Chuck1

06-15-2005, 15:34

Would anyone out there have a picture of what the splayed mains look like.I,ve never seen that done before.I guess it,s a racing thing?

Billman

06-15-2005, 16:27

Try John Kennedy's site.

Kent

06-15-2005, 22:15

I've got a disk full of assy pics i will post up soon.

Kent

Kennedy

06-16-2005, 06:46

Here's a pic:

http://www.kennedydiesel.com/images/Splayed-caps-Installed.gif

While not a difficult install by any means, the job does require a better than average background in machining. The "registers" get milled much wider and to a point where they are just under (about .005" interference fit) the length of the caps. The caps need to be reasonably centered on the block so that the line bore will clean them up. We have undersized the bore diameter on the caps to help in this area.

A lot of details about this procedure will come to "print" in the not too distant future...

Note: This is NOT your typical slap a boring bar on the deck and bore type of operation. The block must be fastened to the table and leveled using a dial indicator to the best average of the register surface of the #2 and #4 web. I'll see if I can get RJ to post a pic of the operation.

grape

06-16-2005, 07:22

JK try to send me an email, Let me know if you think it would be cheaper to waterjet your main caps instead of machining them. I've got a buddy down hear that can cut 6" stainless with his waterjet machine. Only thing that would have to be machined, just for ease, would be the main bolt holes, and the center main thrust reliefs.

Kennedy

06-16-2005, 08:04

I'm a bit confused. I don't see how a water jet could provide the same level of presision as a mill.

ronniejoe

06-16-2005, 08:43

As Kennedy said, I am presently working on a write-up to cover much of this subject. Here is a primer, though.

This first picture shows the set-up process using a dial indicator to level the main cap mounting surface.

http://www.schoolcraftpowertrain.com/MainCaps/P3240800.JPG

The next picture shows the milling operation to widen the registers. The width is determined by measuring the main cap, dividing by two and then come off the centerline of the block to that distance minus about .0025". As a double check, the main cap was first placed on the block with the center two bolts snugged so that a line could be scribed in machine blue on the rail.

http://www.schoolcraftpowertrain.com/MainCaps/P3240807.JPG

In this photo, the caps are in place with the two center bolts. The outer holes are used as a guide to machine the counter bore in the register.

http://www.schoolcraftpowertrain.com/MainCaps/P3240814.JPG

The minor diameter of the threaded hole is machined next.

http://www.schoolcraftpowertrain.com/MainCaps/P3240815.JPG

Followed by the threading operation.

http://www.schoolcraftpowertrain.com/MainCaps/P3240816.JPG

After this is complete, the align boring and align honing operations finish the install.

Edited to correct spelling errors and typos!

[ 06-17-2005, 05:07 AM: Message edited by: ronniejoe ]

Chuck1

06-16-2005, 21:02

Man when I asked for pictures I whould have never thought .This page is a real class act.Just 3 more questions. How much stronger will it be .Can it break.Is it stronger than the new AG blocks.

ronniejoe

06-17-2005, 04:10

Unfortunately, at this time there is no definitive answer to these questions. No one that I know of has done any analysis of this application. The experience in the racing world with small block and big block Chevy gassers is very good. The concept is sound.

My intuition tells me this should be very strong and should cure the cracking problems.

Kennedy

06-17-2005, 05:31

Mark Bajus has these on his 93 with my first 18:1 pistons etc. He had this done in 2001? I believe, and this was on a block that had already formed a crack. The crack was repaired with some form of seam stitch method, and lives on...

CareyWeber

06-17-2005, 07:39

Ron,

Is this block a squirter or a nonsquirter?

Carey

john8662

06-17-2005, 08:39

Carey,

You can tell from the pictures that it's a squirter. It has 3 holes on the area where the bearing goes. Normally (non spray block) there is only one hole in the center.

RonnieJoe,

Thanks for the pictures of your splayed main block work. It's refreshing to see whats going on there. I was trying to visualize it all mentally as I didn't get to see my caps or anything before they were shipped off to be used.

Everyone,

I spoke to Kent on the phone and he relayed a TON of information about the Splayed Main Work. He was VERY helpfull with the information to get me going and the shop doing the work going. Excellent member!

ronniejoe

06-17-2005, 09:41

As John8662 said, it's a squirter.

Cowracer

06-17-2005, 10:04

RJ and I are on basically parallel rebuilds. The only real difference is that he is taking care to optimize all tolerances and he is going with a splayed block.

My rebuild is more "mainstream" (I did not have my crank indexed and whatnot) and I am using a stud girdle on a seasoned 599 block.

It would be intersting to see which way (splayed or girdled) provides more real-world benefits, but that means one of us would have to loose another motor in the process. <shudder> Hopefully we never find out.

How current are those pics RonnieJoe?

Tim

CareyWeber

06-17-2005, 13:30

Originally posted by ronniejoe:
As John8662 said, it's a squirter. Ron,

Is it a small hole squirter or a big hole squirter?

Carey

ronniejoe

06-17-2005, 14:06

Late March.

Small.

[ 06-17-2005, 03:14 PM: Message edited by: ronniejoe ]

Kent

06-17-2005, 18:22

John8662, It was nice talking with you, thanks for the fine words, your a really cool member yourself, glad to have helped you.

RJ, so like, ya know, where ya at now on your project? Fill us in.

Kent

Kent

06-17-2005, 18:55

6.5 assy (http://community.webshots.com/user/eracers999)

For pics try this.

Kent

(Edited to fix pic link - ToddMeister)

[ 06-24-2005, 02:40 AM: Message edited by: ToddMeister ]

CareyWeber

06-18-2005, 03:26

Originally posted by ronniejoe:
As Kennedy said, I am presently working on a write-up to cover much of this subject. Here is a primer, though.

This first picture shows the set-up process using a dial indicator to level the main cap mounting surface.
In this photo, the caps are in place with the two center bolts. The outer holes are used as a guide to machine the counter bore in the register.

http://www.schoolcraftpowertrain.com/MainCaps/P3240814.JPG Ron,

In this pic is the block cracked on the end that is facing us? If not what is the line that goes down at about 45

ronniejoe

06-18-2005, 04:59

That's a cast relief. If you look closely, you can see the other side of it.

Kennedy

06-18-2005, 05:01

I tried to give RJ a heart attack over that pic. Just casting flash...

As a side note for Cowracer, not to try to scare you, but I did this same project like RJ is doing TWICE. First was with a 599 block and non splayed caps. 5,800 miles later...

john8662

06-18-2005, 08:41

JK,

But... Did you use a stud girdle kit or not?

ronniejoe

06-18-2005, 08:54

I went down to look at my broken block...

Each cam bore has lines like that seen in the photo. When pooring large, complex castings, removeable pieces in the pattern are often required to enable certain types geometry. The line that you see is a parting line between the removable piece and the rest of the pattern. There are symmetrical lines on each side of the vertical plane and each side of the web.

Kennedy

06-19-2005, 07:10

Originally posted by john8662:
JK,

But... Did you use a stud girdle kit or not? No girdle on any of my builds.

CareyWeber

06-19-2005, 09:31

Originally posted by ronniejoe:
I went down to look at my broken block...

Each cam bore has lines like that seen in the photo. When pooring large, complex castings, removeable pieces in the pattern are often required to enable certain types geometry. The line that you see is a parting line between the removable piece and the rest of the pattern. There are symmetrical lines on each side of the vertical plane and each side of the web. I was just messing with you Ron. :D

Carey

DmaxMaverick

06-19-2005, 09:43

Originally posted by CareyWeber:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by ronniejoe:
I went down to look at my broken block...

Each cam bore has lines like that seen in the photo. When pooring large, complex castings, removeable pieces in the pattern are often required to enable certain types geometry. The line that you see is a parting line between the removable piece and the rest of the pattern. There are symmetrical lines on each side of the vertical plane and each side of the web. I was just messing with you Ron. :D

Carey </font>[/QUOTE]Rotten trick. But you sure made 'em look!

ronniejoe

06-19-2005, 11:43

Kennedy pulled the same thing by e-mail. :D

It did make me curious, though, so...

Cowracer

06-20-2005, 04:19

Originally posted by kennedy:
As a side note for Cowracer, not to try to scare you, but I did this same project like RJ is doing TWICE. First was with a 599 block and non splayed caps. 5,800 miles later... Yeah, I know John... I lost a lot of sleep thinking that one over, and I might live to regret it, but then again, it may hold up too.

Tim

john8662

06-20-2005, 05:18

Cowracer,

I doubt you'll have the problems Kennedy did. For one, I don't think that you'll be running over 20+psi of boost of the engine for a sustained amount of time.

And, I'm of the impression that dropping the C/R of these engines will help reduce the forces on the bottom end, especialy at idle when they clack the most.

ronniejoe

06-20-2005, 05:40

For what it's worth...

Most of the respondents to the crack poll have indicated stock configuration. The Block cracking is not really related to power output. Higher output will speed up the rate of propagation, but does not seem to affect the likelihood of crack formation.

From what I've seen of the girdle kit, it doesn't look to me like it will do much. The only girdle I've seen that looks to make a difference is the custom one done by Andrew Ashwill in the Power by Design article now in the 2002 Feature Articles volume.

Cowracer

06-20-2005, 05:52

You are probably right RJ, but once I realized that Slayed Caps were not in the picture for me, I figured the girdle would be better than nothing.

For the record, I am not advocating girdle over splayed. If you have the time, cash, and access to a good machine shop, then by all means go with the splayed. I really wish my situation would have allowed it.

Tim

dieseldummy

06-20-2005, 19:18

Looking at all these picks makes me wish I could have used my 506 block with splayed caps... I envy you that have the opportunity to try such a thing.

Kennedy

06-21-2005, 05:23

Originally posted by john8662:
Cowracer,

I doubt you'll have the problems Kennedy did. For one, I don't think that you'll be running over 20+psi of boost of the engine for a sustained amount of time.

And, I'm of the impression that dropping the C/R of these engines will help reduce the forces on the bottom end, especialy at idle when they clack the most. My 599 block was run at 18:1 with the GM-5 turbo. While it cruised with 10-12psi on the highway, it didn't have the beans in the upper rpm.

FYI, Ron's rods are being set up for length correcttion so I need to split and take some pics...

jspringator

06-21-2005, 08:19

What about using a military 6.2 block for the build up? I suppose you would have to keep the 6.2 displacement, but you would have the higher nickle content block. One of my clients is a humvee mechanic for the Army and he says he has never heard of a cracked block. Could you compensate for the lower displacement?

john8662

06-21-2005, 11:58

James,

As far as I know the Military blocks may or may not have any higher nickel content than any of the other casts, the '82 6.2 were high nickel content for sure, but I've seen them cracked. The problem with these blocks lies in their design IMHO, just look at the pics of the block above and see where the cylinder bore takes part of the main web, thats where these engines crack. It's more a design characteristic of GM engines, small blocks and big block chevy's. Kennedy refers to it as a "shallow skirt" design and I can sure see it (I hope I got that right).

I thought and thought about what to do about this cracking, and I've come to the same conclusion that the splayed main caps were the best solution. It basically uses a stronger part of the block to help tie down the cap, not the weakest part as GM did. These engines obviously do need to be a 4 bolt main, mainly to keep the crank from flexing (and breaking in our case).

Kent

06-23-2005, 17:43

John8662

Amen to that! Blocks in general that wouldent take 400hp can now go over 1000 with splayed mains.

Kent

trbankii

08-01-2005, 12:22

So, how is this article coming. Can we expect to see it in the near future? The "short version" has definitely whetted my appetite!

john8662

08-01-2005, 12:42

Funny to see this post back at the top again.

Fortunatly, there is some good news, the block is now splayed, and is on it's way back to the Diesel Depot for further work.

I'm excited, it's now a matter of weeks (not months) before some smoke!

BiggR

08-01-2005, 12:57

Ron, Was the work done on your block done on a Bridgeport mill or something larger? You know I got a buddy here in town with a real nice one and was wondering if it would accomodate the 6.5.....Just thinkin'!!!!!

ronniejoe

08-01-2005, 16:18

Here's a picture of the Hartford mill (and Tom Waldhart of Pro Craft):

http://www.schoolcraftpowertrain.com/MainCaps/IM000822.JPG

I would think a Bridgeport could handle the job quite well...

The article has been submitted. I think Jim will have it up with the August updates.

[ 08-01-2005, 07:35 PM: Message edited by: ronniejoe ]

BiggR

08-01-2005, 17:41

That's nearly identical to a bridgeport!!!
Thanks!!!

Bigg R

Kennedy

08-02-2005, 05:12

Originally posted by john8662:
Funny to see this post back at the top again.

Fortunatly, there is some good news, the block is now splayed, and is on it's way back to the Diesel Depot for further work.

I'm excited, it's now a matter of weeks (not months) before some smoke! While I know some people may not like them, I'll suggest to you as I did to RJ that you drop a couple of GM "Cadillac" coolant seal tabs inside the block before you seal it up. Just an insurance policy in case there is a leak. You can always do a system flush and filter later if you are afraid of the debris, but I've never had a problem with this.