After cooler

[Robyn]

As many of you know I am in the process od building a turbo engine for my 91 Burb 4X4

I have enough iron now to put together either a nice .030 over 6.2 on a 1994 599 6.2 MIL block or a 506 non spray 6.5 block.

Thinking seriously about the MIL block.
I have a nice Banks turbo setup now and I know I am going to want to push this thing some.I am already looking to find the 6.9/7.3 banks turbo to stuff on this to give me some greater boost.

Anyway, the need for an aftercooler come right to the forefront with the idea of more boost.
I found a cute little aftercooler off a Thunderbird super coupe.
Not too big but I am looking at this because of its size and the probability that it will fit up front without needing to carve the truck all up to get it in.

Not sure if the size of the cooler is adequate to pass the needed air but thought I would toss this idea out and see what shakes out..


Any thoughts folks???


Robyn

[gmctd]

That charge-air cooler, called inter-cooler on the street, is for a 140cuin 2.3L 4-cylinder, almost 3x smaller than the 6.5 - that 'cooler went in a little niche in the T-Bird hood

The Mistubishi Starion\Chrysler Conquest 'cooler is more suitable, being over-sized for their 190hp 2.6.

The Isuzu 5.9L 6-cylinder 'cooler is even better, as is one of the Saab 'coolers, and Renault, and Volvo

Banks offered a wastegated upgrade to the standard 6.2\6.9 offerings, the TE06H, made by Mistubishi - a little larger than the GM-8, good for off-idle spoolup, right where you need extra torque.

[More Power]

I talked to a guy a couple of days ago who bought a like new Dodge Cummins IC off eBay for $75.

If you have access to a TIG welder and some 1/8" aluminum, you could cut the DC IC down a bit in core width (if necessary) and make new in/outlets. Then, visit www.intakehoses.com (http://www.intakehoses.com) for the bits-n-pieces to make it all work in your application... :)

Jim

[Robyn]

Thanks folks

I am seriously in the gathering mode right now.

I will keep my eye out for a suitable unit. I dont mid a little welding and such.
I bought a reeeeeeealy lovely Tig unit about 2 years ago and have never used it.
Got it off ebay also. The fellow spent a buttload on it and then decided he was not cut out to be a welder and practically gave the thing away.

Its a middle of the road Miller unit and will do these little aluminum jobs real nice.

I want to keep from having to chop the truck all up.

I am thinking that exhaust tubing will make sweet connection line for the system.

I am getting excited about this.

Working now on a gauge pod that mounts on the hump next to the 4x4 shifter and stands up within easy sight and reach. I am including a switch for the tranny lockup clutch.
I hate the way the standard setup is constantly in out in out in out.
Its no wonder the clutches give up.

Around town they are simply a nuisance

Thanks again

Robyn

[Robyn]

I located an intercooler from a Saab 9000.
Looks to be in great shape.
Fair size inlets and outlets too.

Should be easily installed in the area behind the GMC grill too.

Any input on this choice??
The Saab unit has a cast end with cast in fittings too.

[rustyk]

I would just wonder about the difference in airflow between a charge cooler designed for a 6.5L TD and one for a gasser of half the displacement. While the turbo could probably force the air through, I don't know if the air would slow down enough to give up much heat.

And with higher airspeed comes a bigger pressure drop. There's one way to find out if it would work...

[DmaxMaverick]

I would just wonder about the difference in airflow between a charge cooler designed for a 6.5L TD and one for a gasser of half the displacement....

That's not the problem. In fact, it's a moot point. Although the gasser is ~1/2 the displacement, the RPM's of the 6.5L is ~1/2, as well. The actual dynamic displacement at the power peaks will be very similar.

[gmctd]

Robyn, if you can get a second front bulkhead for the '82 -'91 series, cut the side pieces off, leaving the wide u-shaped channel the radiator fits into.

Weld that piece in behind the one in your Sub, move the radiator into that one, leaving the original channel for the Dodge\similar 'cooler, and you won't have to mess up any front sheet metal or the grille support for the installation.

Use the HD aluminum 6.5 radiator from the later trucks to get max coolant flow capability over the 4-core 6.2 radiators.

Shorten the radiator shroud correspondingly, use the '97 cooling upgrade pieces incl the Dmax fan and you'll have plenty room with upgraded 6.5 cooling capability - and a more than suitably-sized charge-air cooler.

Imo, of course..............

[Robyn]

Sounds very interesting.

I can most likely scrounge up a core support from a 82-91 burb and do just what you are talking about.

The later radiators also have some other attributes such as the remote coolant tank setup.

I will start looking for some of these goodies,

Thanks for the tech tips.

Lets see what sort of a cooler comes down the trail.

[gmctd]

The bulkhead is same in Blazers, trucks, and Subs, but could be some differences in pre-'88 pieces, other than the obvious headlite mounting schemes.

Also, I've never had my hands on one, but the '01 DMax 'cooler could be just the ticket, as it fits around the late radiator end-tanks.

[JeepSJ]

Banks offered a wastegated upgrade to the standard 6.2\6.9 offerings, the TE06H, made by Mistubishi - a little larger than the GM-8, good for off-idle spoolup, right where you need extra torque.

The MHI TE06H was never offered for the 6.2/6.5 from Banks. It is the turbo they use in their early Ford 7.3 kits. When I was getting some parts for mine, the guy at Banks thought I was crazy for wanting to put it onto a 6.5.

[Yukon6.2]

Hi
I'v got an aftercooler about 85% done.I used a used cooler from a dodge01'i placed it right in front of the rad.I had to do aa little work on the rad support but the cooler fit into the area like it was mad for it.I had to modify the outlet on the cooler to get around the rad but it looks nice.The changes i made to the rad suport actually opens up the sq inches of rad exposed to air flow,the air will be heated now so i hope the cancell each other out.
I wanted a stock looking truck,when it is installed yopu wouln't be able to tell there is turbo or aftercooler till you open the hood,even looking thru the grill it will look stock.
If you would like some pic's to see what i have done just let me know.
Have fun

[reiswigt]

I would love to see pictures. I just purchased a used Banks kit and have access to a Dodge chargecooler and thought that would be a grea idea. Having someone else figure out most of the bugs would be great.

Todd

[More Power]

Here are a couple of shots of the 2002 Dodge charge air cooler I installed in Lil Red. Works well! ;)

http://www.thedieselpageforums.com/photopost/data/500/lilredintercooler01.jpg

Here's with the modified A/C condensor and hood latch bracket in place.

http://www.thedieselpageforums.com/photopost/data/500/lilredintercooler02.jpg

[Robyn]

Jeep
I talked with one of the reps from Banks a while back and he acknowledged that the 6.9/7.3 gated turbo would work fine on the 6.5 but also cautioned that with a heavy boot and little knowledge of what is going on with all this stuff that one could find ones self in the "CRISPY ZONE" easily.

For those of us that understand the ins and out of things the Ford application huffer would be the sweet ticket.

For now I am going to use the Banks unit that came with the kit I bought recently.
I want to get everything up and running smooth and then worry about going for the gusto.

Once my project gets going I am looking at a tranny swap too.
I kept the trick 700R I built for my Blazer when I sold it.
I let the fellow drive the truck home and then we pulled the box out at his house.

Figured it would be a great time to update the gearbox when the engine was out.

Going to change the lockup controls over to hydraulic control plus a manual switch in the cab to select if I want the thing to work or not.

Currently the lockup is on the little Computer and it sucks.
Just barely touch the throttle and its out then in then out again.

With the hydraulic valving in place in the valve body it engages the lockup at light throttle above 35mph and will allow compression braking in all 2-3-4 down to 25 mph.

I have been thinking about using a speedo cable control unit from B&M and installing it in the speedo drive area that is not used in the tranny. (4X4 uses the t case location for the electric sender)

Anyway got some building to do to get an engine ready.

Looks now like the 599 6.2 block is going to get the green light. Going to bore it .75mm and drop a good 6.5 crank I have in it.

Got a good set of 6.5 rods recently to use with the new sealed power pistons.
Going to use the heads that came with the 6.2.

I have a 4911 IP from a 6.5 that was recently gone through and supposedly "turned up to the nuts" as the fellow I got it from said.

Its in the shop now being checked out.

This package should result in a nice sweet little powerpack for my old 91 Burb

Robyn

[Robyn]

Jim
nice pix of the install.
Im still in the dark as to what I want to do.
Probably going to wait until summer and I get to work on the truck and see just what sort of room I have to work with.

There are so many different aftercoolers out there that will do the job.

With what I want to end up with I am not real sure yet on anything.
We shall take it one step at a time.

The aftercooler will be a snap.
I am more worried about the exhaust system at the present.

I want to end up with a dual 4" setup just to be different.
Planning on a 3" down pipe as per Banks and then upsizing to a 4" as soon as I can do it without interference issues and then split the system with a Y back of the T case and then dualling it out the back with 4" and tipping it with chrome 5" for the last 18" or so.

Not sure if I am even going to use a muffler.
May stuff in a resonator in the 3" somewhere I just dont know yet.

Need to get under the truck and have a good look see.

As high up as this truck is there is a Buttload of room that a stock height truck just does not afford.

One thing I have decided on is to build an adapter for the banks turbo that will allow the use of the V band clamp instead of needing to unbolt those 6 bolts to get things apart.

Had a bit of a time getting the down pipe loose from the Banks turbo.

Just a nice piece of steel and a little lathe time and will produce a real nice adapter.
Planning on coming off the turbo and turning to the fender (Right side) and going down through into the wheel well and then back under the egine and over the top of the front axle.
I have so much room there that this would ease the constraints on the pipe size and location.
Having the V band clamp setup will also take some stress off the turbo as it will allow some flex.

Time will tell for sure.

Later

Robyn

[OzzieGM]

Have you guys considered using a water to air aftercooler. I have recently installed one to a mate's cars and it works great. Because you have very little pipe work from the turbo through the after cooler and into the engine you don't get much turbo lag. (Was very noticeable after install) You also get a very constant intake temp. Also they are very easy to install. The only downside is the extra weight you get with the water.

[Robyn]

How do you cool the water in that system??
After a while it will get hot???

[OzzieGM]

How do you cool the water in that system??
After a while it will get hot???

I thought the same eventually the water will get hot. You have to run a small water cooler (Radiator) usually mounted in front of radiator and then a 12v water pumps circulates the water. Works really well. After I installed it to my mates car we went for a big drive to see how well it works. After 2 hrs of hard driving on a 40 deg c day (Cars is making over 450hp and around 17psi boost) we still had a 35deg C temp drop over the cooler. Got to be happy with that. Another advantage it is you get that temp difference even if the car is stationary, and as I said before reduced the turbo lag alot, and this thing is a lag monster, has a huge turbo on a small engine. They also say you get less than a 1 psi pressure drop over the cooler.

[john8662]

Currently the lockup is on the little Computer and it sucks.
Just barely touch the throttle and its out then in then out again.



Just adjust the TPS on the IP, you'll likely find one of two things...

1. The sensor is mis-adjusted or..

2. It's binding and not functioning correctly, needing replacement.

My current '91 Chev wasn't adjusted correctly (pump had been off by prev owner). My past '91 GMC had a bad sensor that would decide to unlock at times going down the highway and sometimes not lock back up. The in-town driving was also wishy washy.

J

[rustyk]

Jeez, Robyn, aren't you done with that thing with the Saab charge air cooler yet...we're awaiting yer sucess!

[Craig M]

I have talked to the Banks reps at several diesel outings. They do not see the need for an intercooler in conjunction with their 6.2 units. The boost pressure is relatively low in the Banks unit. The intercooler cannot hurt, but they would not recomment it. If one is to go to the higher boost turbos then the lower compression pistons are usually recomended.

[GSE2SCHMIDT]

I would have to agree with the air/water cooling method. I've owned a couple 2.3 ford turbo coupes, and a couple 2.2 turbo dodge daytonas.

you would think the difference with the 2 engines only being 0.1 they would drive the same but not so.

The 2.2 dodge had the intake and exaust on the same side of the engine....short route what turbo lag.....very zippy and only ran about 7 pounds of boost, played around and upgraded to pull 10 pounds of boost...3 psig really made a difference, the problem is to go higher you need and intercooler or things get....crispy. One morning driving to work at about 0 degree F out I put my foot in it to go on the freeway, the car pulled real hard until it "sneezed". I looked at my boost gauge and it would peg the needle. Some moisture had gotten in the vacuum boost control line and frozen so I played with it on the way to work and realized that boost is not really an issue to produce, I'm sure the thing would put out 30psi no problem but it would detonate way before then.

The 2.3 ford had a bigger turbo....don't remember the dodge was like a t03 and the ford a t04 or something. It would run 10-15 psi all day long but it was one of those put your foot in it and wait a few seconds, the boost would spool up and the engine would "pull" hard, harder than dodge but not zippy. I had a 2.3 with an intercooler from a SVO mustang which now put it in the wooping V8s mode. The advantage of the SVO intercooler is the short run that it has basically replacing the turbo to throttle plate foot long tube. The turbo lag seemed less and the sky was the limit.

Still I remember the smaller turbo on the dodge as working as part of the engine and it acting like a V6 or small V8...kinda like the 6.5 diesel, and the ford acting like an engine with a turbo.....(lag).

Dodge had picked to go with a smaller(almost undersized) turbo and spin it up quicker and faster not so much because it was the next size smaller but because of it's intake/exaust ratio. And Ford went the route that I think someone did the math and said you could run a single ford turbo feeding a 5.0 with a little room to spare.

Many of the SVO guys would try to hop up an already good thing. A SVO was something like 215 HP and the 5.0 was something like 205 HP. So getting an extra 10 to 20% along with the 300 pound lighter engine was impressive for spanking the 5.0 guys...until they got into supercharging...but that's another story.

Anyway the SVO guys ran into a wall with trying to improve intercooling without adding lag, because even doubling the size of the intercooler volume basically doubled lag.....the solution some guys would run water spray on the stock intercooler, then finally some just went to a water heat exchanger and the air/air guys couldn't touch the air/water cooling.

Anyway there is a give and take with intercooling the Buick Grand National guys always seemed to be buying ice, setting the ice on the intakes.

When I first looked at a 6.5 diesel turbo after owning several production gasoline turbos was....holy crap an air cooled bearing on the turbo....like the 79-81 fords had on my 84 turbo coupe they had air fins on the housing and my 86 turbo coupe had a liquid cooled bearing...like dodge ran from day one.

I also looked at the intake and thought look at all that aluminum. Put 3 bags of Ice on it double the boost and away to go.........

I would not worry about pressure drop across the cooler that much. If you had a 1 psi drop it can easily be compensated for by measuring pressure after not before the intercooler. I don't think the turbo cares if there is a 10psi drop across the intercooler, except for every PSI there is a direct increase in temperature....more to cool....give and take....but if you double the volume of the intake system you double the lag.

If I was "going for it" I think I would replace the lower intake manifold with like a F style(blocked off egr) or whatever has the coolest runners and less volume, bigger isn't better and totally replace the upper manifold with some kind of liquid cooling arrangement. Even if some kind of water jacket was welded on the outside of the upper manifold and you could.

I've often wondered if you took an air cooler and welded a box around it and flowed water thru it how it would work. I know air to air works best with air but to the best of my knowledge not many people make liquid intercoolers that are cheap.

Well the detroit diesel 16V149TIC(V16, 149cu in per cyl, Turbocharged, InterCooled) engine we had in the navy had saltwater cooling intercooler, but blocked them off because one sprung a leak and it became a salt water injected diesel.......not for too long.

[gmctd]

Dude -

the Daytona was the VW-derived 2.2 front-wheel-drive on the Rabbit-derived Omni\Horizon platform, or the small Mitsubishi coupe, much much lighter than -

the heavier T-Bird Turbo-coupe, with it's Pinto cross-flow 2.3, liquid-cooled turbo, small charge-air cooler in a hood-vent, and rear-wheel drive, a big plus in power development and application - had the SVO 4w disk brakes, to boot.

Not much comparison, there, as far as oem performance - the lighter Daytona would have felt more 'zippy' - but the T-bird had greater possibilities, and it was also the better-lookin' car, imo............

[GSE2SCHMIDT]

I agree basically what I am saying is the 6.5 turbo diesel is a pretty ideal combination as a package together. I would compare it to the Buick grand national.

Now you come down to a fork in the road, which path to take

Look under the hood of a gm diesel then look at the components on a dodge or ford....massive....not always the better way to go

No sense introducing lag for a better top end with a huge intercooler or adding 4 cubic feet of volume in tubing like the ford's huge piping

but if you don't cool the intake charge you'll be entering the "crispy" zone.

I think the 6.5 and it's turbo are pretty on the mark as far as turbo's and engines go.

[gmctd]

I don't get any turbo-lag in my home-brew installation, 'cooler mounted in the winch-area of the front bumper, but that's 'cause the turbo is specifically sized for off-idle response, and my 6.5 drives an automatic trans.

Most below-the-bumper installations, such as the units JK sells, don't cause any perceptible lag with the GM-X series turbos - the denser air is the offsetting factor in a Diesel.

The 6.5 is a medium rpm engine - about 3500rpm max - where the gassers not only require higher rpm to develop any power - 5k to 6k rpm - but the stoked mix is dependent on the throttle plate angle.

Diesels can develop max torque at ~2000rpm because any quantity of fuel can be injected at the top of the compression stroke - just needs more air than n\a to make it work.

The oem gasser turbo is sized for higher rpm requirements, so has much lag at off-idle rpm, where the a\f mix is limited and exhaust energy is low.

Up-size the 6.5 turbo and you get better upper-rpm response and efficiency, but off-idle suffers - lag.

And, all turbo-engines 'work' better with the auto trans, as the TC provides the constant loading required to 'stage' the turbo - the manual trans version is unloaded at any rpm until the clutch is dumped, which causes some lag compared to the auto..

So, if the thought of a 'cooler for your truck has crossed your mind, there's a bunch of us that can heartily recommend installing one for greatly improved driveability.

Add the 'chip', and people will begin to talk behind your back - because you can't wipe that big grin off your face...............

[GSE2SCHMIDT]

I wasn't sure about the 6.5 being sized for off throttle response but it makes sense, also torque off the line vs a gasser which has to be spun up to make horsepower.

Another thing that just occured to me is that the RPM's being much lower effectively make the intercooler "bigger". if you have an engine turning half the speed it has twice the capacity. So Robyn's 2.3 liter (gas) engine intercooler would be an accepable size for say a 4.6 liter (diesel) because the diesel is turning half the rpm's, still a far cry from 6.5 but if the engineers oversized the intercooler by say 50% that would be good for a 4.6 x 150% = 6.9 diesel.

Still surprised you don't have more lag. Bottom end torque covers a multitude of sins doesn't it.

If I remember correctly....and I might not but Dodge used computer controlled boost and would actually sneak in a couple extra psi until things would start to heat up then it backed off a few pounds, some guys would install orfices to trick the computer sensor to overboost and then back down at a slower rate.

I think my ford's basically used the diaphram connected to the intake manifold, so basically all exaust would be routed to the turbo until a pressure was reached and then the wastegate just bled off energy to maintain boost at a conservative non-detonating level.

So our 6.5's are computer controlled turbo's, and just don't react to boost level, schedule and they control it. Much smoother acceleration and more emission friendly.

If you put on a mechanical wastegate boost is actually controlled by backpressure, more conservative than controlling by manifold pressure. The fuel is scheduled by manifold boost pressure.

Wouldn't it make more sense to use a spring loaded mechanism to keep the wastegate closed at all times but have a diaphram measure intake pressure and just start backing off when the manifold got too high of a boost.....basically keeping the wastegate shut at all times except for when it starts to overboost.