Billet & Forged Crankshafts

[More Power]

Can anyone tell me the difference in strength & durability between billet & forged?

Thanks,

Jim

[gmctd]

Forged cranks, having the general shape of the finished product, need centering, cross drilling, do the hubs, snouts, crankpins and mains journals, and you're done, maybe some tuftriding and polishing

Billet cranks are labor intensive, being totally machined from a round bar , or billet blank, the diameter of which must be greater than the throws\counterbalances.

Would be my guess.

Now, about those billet door knobs, steering wheels and columns, mufflers, brake pedals, license plate brackets, etc...............

[Robyn]

The forging starts with an almost white hot chunk of metal and they stuff it into the forging die and the giant drop hammer comes down and smashes the metal into its finished shape.

Big, heavy and monsterous machines to do this.
The advantage is there are few stress risers left after the process.

With a billet it is as has been mentioned cut from a large chunk of round stock.
After the initial machining the unground crank needs to be stress releived in an oven at temps just almost red hot and then cooled.
This will allow the thing to settle into whatever shape it needs to be and not have any internal stresses left in it.
Once the crank is just about done the journals are nitrided and then they are done.
The nitriding /tufdriding (GM) gives the bearing surface a nice hard wear surface a couple thou thick..

We used to hard chrome the journals and grind back to spec.
If done right its tougher than the hubs of hell and will really make a nice crank.
If done wrong it peels and your toast.
Last crank we hard chromed was a 454 gasser and we underground it .005 and chomed it back .007 and then ground it to standard spec.

It ran 5 seasons in the race boat and then ended up in a pickup. Have not a clue as to where it is now.

Too many folks are using the term "Billet" for everything from door knobs to rocker arms.
Its sounds way kewl so they use it as a selling point.

I asked one of the crank companies a while back to quote me on a billet crank for the 6.5. $2600.00 plus freight to get it here.

Ballanced and ready to go as long as I sent them the goodies such as rods, pistons, ballancer and such.

Robyn

Truth is its highly over used

[ronniejoe]

The major difference is in the strength. The forging process yields preferential grain flow which improves strength (in one direction). As was mentioned, you start with a hot chunk of metal and progressively form it with dies until it is close to the final shape.

Billet (a fancy way to say machined from solid) parts are just machined from a chunk of metal. The material is homogeneous. The machining will cut across the grain, interrupting the pattern.

Depending upon how the initial chunk or material was formed, a machined from solid piece may be stronger than a cast piece, but a properly forged piece will be stronger than either.

[gmctd]

The billet piece has an added advantage - any weak points in the forged piece can be strengthened in the billet piece by leaving extra stock - this is easily seen in the aftermarket transmission shafts, where the shaft diameter is increased in critical areas, and splined areas are lengthened for more 'bite', or spline length is reduced for increased strength in the uncut diameter.

And often the billet piece is 'tempered', where the forged piece is not, or is to a lesser degree

GM offered forged crank blanks, totally un-machined, to be cut and finished by those with facilities to improve the piece, or alter stroke somewhat - also offered semi-finished pieces for minor alteration.

Be neat if the 454 blank could be machined for the 6.5, requiring also an altered camshaft.

What's the thought(s) behind your question?

[ronniejoe]

The billet piece has an added advantage - any weak points in the forged piece can be strengthened in the billet piece by leaving extra stock - this is easily seen in the aftermarket transmission shafts, where the shaft diameter is increased in critical areas, and splined areas are lengthened for more 'bite', or spline length is reduced for increased strength in the uncut diameter.

And often the billet piece is 'tempered', where the forged piece is not, or is to a lesser degree

The only reason people advertise "billet" parts is to sucker gullible folks into thinking they're getting something that they aren't. The word actually comes from the fact that large chunks of raw material are called billet...hence, "machined from billet" which has been shortened to "billet" for advertising purposes. By making a redesigned piece from solid stock (billet), one can alter sizes and gain some strength in some areas. If one were to design and make a new forging that incorporated the increased section sizes and make a part from that, it would be by far stronger.

The reason that new forgings are rarely made by the aftermarket folks who really like to use the "billet" advertising advantage is because a forging is expensive and their small production runs cannot justify it economically. In this case, a "billet" piece becomes a reasonable compromise, but it is a compromise none the less. To sell their parts, they crow about it being a "billet" piece that is "stronger than a forging" and leave the impression that forged pieces are somehow inferior. This is completely not the case.

For the subject at hand, I would be very skeptical if someone claimed that a "billet" crankshaft for the 6.5 was very much stronger than the current cast cranks that we are using.

As for your comments about tempering... What is your source for information here?

[grape]

we use cola, crower, callies, and bryant in the race stuff, they are machined from a billet and are $3800 for a v-8 or a straight 4.............

[ronniejoe]

we use cola, crower, callies, and bryant in the race stuff, they are machined from a billet and are $3800 for a v-8 or a straight 4.............

Again, that's because they can't justify the cost of producing new forgings for such small numbers. If you think that price is high, try amortizing the cost of a forging over the same number of pieces. In reality, the same thing is true for castings.

The "billet" pieces are the only economical way to get some of these low quantity parts. They've just spun the marketing angle so that gullible people think they're getting something better.

[gmctd]

I agree - you'll never see a billet down-pipe on my truck, or billet brake hose, or billet fuel-level float - even tho they are cheaper than the forged versions.

Have been considerin' one o' them billet radar detectors, tho, and a forged Rolex ain't too bad, fer the price.

But, I digress - I agree - I'd rather have the forged tuf-trided piece, maybe with a different firing order.

The ease of making design changes in the billet piece is another strength over forged.

But I 'spect the question is which will survive better than the cast-piece now in use.

[ronniejoe]

I agree - you'll never see a billet down-pipe on my truck, or billet brake hose, or billet fuel-level float - even tho they are cheaper than the forged versions.

Have been considerin' one o' them billet radar detectors, tho, and a forged Rolex ain't too bad, fer the price.

So, you're shown to be blowing smoke and you start mocking... I tried to be gentle.


The ease of making design changes in the billet piece is another strength over forged.


This is it's only advantage...not "another" one...as I already stated in my earlier post.

I've attached an image of a section of a crankshaft forging for your viewing enjoyment. Notice how the grain follows the contour of the shape. This is what makes a forging stronger than a "billet" piece or a cast piece. This is called "preferential grain flow".

Even if you cold work the piece of billet stock or even if you forge the billet stock into it's bar shape, the machining operations to get the shape of the crank will cut through the grain so that the grain pattern is interrupted. This yields a loss of strength in the finished part.

Bottom line: Make two identically shaped parts (in this case crankshafts), one from a forging and the other from "billet". The forged one will be stronger every time. End of story.

[More Power]

Let's not get testy... I just asked a simple (in retrospect maybe not all that simple...) question that I needed more info on.... :confused:

I'm surprised someone didn't ask why I posted this in the "6.5L Turbo Diesel Forum". ;)

I'm in the process of gathering more information... I received a couple of really cool photos (which I'll share soon), and I asked a few folks what they all meant. Aside from a factory girdle, billet cranks came up in the conversation (I had heard last year they would be forged - more later).... :) I still need to talk to a few who really have the scoop on what I saw...

Jim

PS... Did I mention an electric fan clutch?

[gmctd]

Just as I suspected - those things have changed hardly at all since back in the late '50's- early 60's, when I first saw several comparisons for cast, forged, and 'cut', or totally machined from 4130 or some such steel, cranks.

Odd how those 'cut' cranks could survive <1500hp for ~4secs in a motor that consumed 1.5gals fuel per second

Nice pic, ronniejoe, very informative - got one with similar slice thru a billet version?

Also be interested in seeing sliced inductive hardening, carburizing, and also nitriding examples - notice how I separated 'tempering' examples from nitriding.

Then there's tempering by 'quenching', but that's very smokey - as is burning weeds........:eek:

[bcbigfoot]

Billet parts have become popular in recent years due to CNC machines that throw alot of metal chips in a hurry with a minimum of supervision/cost.

I agree that a forged crank is likely to be better than a billet crank as long as the metal used in the two processes are of equal quality/design for the job at hand. I suspect the material used in the billet cranks that Grapes speaks of is of a superior quality than what GM uses in thier forged cranks. So it is very possible to have a superior billit crank to that of a forged crank.

Other issues to consider when assessing the durability of a crank is surface finish, and the size of radius corners. Smoother the surface, and larger radius corners, better the durability.

[ronniejoe]

Let's not get testy... I just asked a simple (in retrospect maybe not all that simple...) question that I needed more info on.... :confused:

I'm surprised someone didn't ask why I posted this in the "6.5L Turbo Diesel Forum". ;)

I'm in the process of gathering more information... I received a couple of really cool photos (which I'll share soon), and I asked a few folks what they all meant. Aside from a factory girdle, billet cranks came up in the conversation (I had heard last year they would be forged - more later).... :) I still need to talk to a few who really have the scoop on what I saw...

Jim

PS... Did I mention an electric fan clutch?

I apologize for getting "testy"...

I've explained the differences and provided justification for the technical content of my comments. You choose who to believe.

It seems to be a safe assumption that GEP is developing some new stuff. Their choice of "billet" over forged is nothing more than an economic choice. They will probably be able to engineer a machined from solid piece that will out perform the cast pieces presently used. However, their decision mirrors that of GM in the first place when the decision was made to use cast cranks in these engines.

As for the electric fan clutch... I saw such a device on pre-production prototype gas pusher motorhome chassis using Chevy 8.1 liter engines last year. I thought then that this could easily be adapted to the 6.5. At that time, I was not allowed to speak about what they were doing for competitive reasons.

As for sections with carburize etc., look them up in your engineering texts. This stuff is usually covered in second year engineering classes. I've posted photomicrographs of nitrided surfaces in the past. That generated more questions than it answered.

Briefly, carburizing, nitriding, induction hardening, "tuftriding", nitrocarburizing, etc. are processes that increase the surface hardness of a part while leaving the core in a softer state. This increases the fatigue resistance of cyclically loaded parts because of the residual compressive stresses produced near the surface. This is due to the change of phase of the material from the hardening process (reference your metallurgical texts for a discussion of the phase diagrams for various materials) that increases the volume of the material at the surface.

These hardening processes all have advantages and disadvantages that must be carefully considered. Esentially, materials that are used with nitriding are different from materials that are used with carburizing and are different from materials used with induction hardening. The processes are not interchangeable.

The "best" process, from a strength standpoint, is carburizing. However, there are many other considerations that dictate the use of the other processes in many situations. These other considerations make the other processes "better" in those circumstances.

This discussion, though, is off the topic of this thread.

4130 steel was mentioned in a previous post. Can anyone explain what the numbers in the designation mean? How about 9310 steel or 1010 steel or 8620 steel or 5150 steel? What are each of these materials commonly used for? Which heat treat process or processes should be used with each?

[Hubert]

Here is some info on steel numbers

http://shopswarf.orcon.net.nz/sae.html

I can't regurgitate it very well. I use to work in the tooling business and selection of material is a whole host of compromises of economics, supply, bar stock size, machineability, processibility, compatibility, strenght/hardness/toughness etc etc.

If you don't have a great memory and I don't I generally have to look up specific properties each and everytime dang it.

[ronniejoe]

Thanks Hubert.

That link does a good job of explaining the designation system. I actually asked the question in a rhetorical sense to be a bit of a smart alec...please forgive me.;)

[bcbigfoot]

Can anyone tell me the difference in strength & durability between billet & forged?

Thanks,

Jim


I suspect GEP or who ever will have a HP/service life number in mind and will engineer a crank around that number. If GEP were to make a forged crank they would use a cheaper metal, if they build a billet crank it will have better metal in it to meet the engineered service requirements.

Fordged or billet isn't the issue service life is and the number that was decided on for this crank. Lets hope it is high and affordible.

[Robyn]

I agree with the materials as posted so far.

The cost of the machinery to forge crankshafts has got to be pretty hefty and unless the production runs are going to be in the 7 figure numbers it may well be more cost effective to use a billet piece.
And has been mentioned with the new CNC machines they can chew up steel in a hurry and poop out cranks pretty fast with minimal effort once the machines are set up.

Even with the high cost of materials the scrap is not going to be staggering compared to amortizing a drop forge.

I have seen and run cast iron, cast steel, forged steel and billet steel shafts.
I have personaly seen iron go away and do so in pieces.
The steel shafts I have owned (all types) have done well.
Now I must admit these were all in chevy big blocks from 396-500+ Cu in engines which have a fabulous reputation for durability and longevity.

I have seen 4130 cranks and have seen some billet cranks made from 8620
The 8620 will surface harden well and still retain a very tough core.
We have used 8620 for track roller shafts on Cat dozers.

Whatever product that comes down the pike for the 6.5 almost has to be better than the taffy shafts that we have now.

I personaly would like to see a forged shaft available .

One thing for sure, unless these are mass produced the price is bound to be a bit spendy.

I dont see these engines ever being used in a mass produced products slated for public consumption as was the case with pickups,SUVs ect by GM.

The military simply cant suck up enough of this stuff I dont think.

Possibly if these engines find there way into enough other high sales uses the costs might be palatable.

This has been an interesting thread though.

In getting back to the use of the term Billet.
Still highly overused me thinks
My son inlaw gets all these catalogs for dirt bike goodies and everything is a billet something.
Billet chain guides, billet fork covers, billet, billet billet AAAAAACK


I want a set of billet seat covers

OH on a serious Note


RJ
Please enjoy our humor, its the only way some of us can stay sane!! ;0)

Nobody is mocking or making fun, its just to bring a smile and give us all a bit of relief from the crap we all have to endure every day.

OH BTW if you find smiles and giggles in short supply, I have a unopened package of "Billet smiles" I'll send over..

Love ya guys

best to ya

Robyn

[Robyn]

Just a passing thought
Overall the serviceability on the 6.5 has not been all that bad.
The addition of just a little more durability in the block and the crank will most likely put the 6.5 over the top and make it a very dependable piece of equipment.

The only issue I see coming into play is all of "US" folks who like to see just how much more boost we can add or how much heavier a load we can pull.

The design will be put to the ultimate test no matter what is done to it by the wild ones.
If used as designed is the issue! The rest of us crazies are going to push the limits to the edge and beyond and then sweep up the pieces and go again.

No matter if its a little scooter or a heavy duty off road truck, someone is going to take it all the way to its point of failure and then complain that it did not hold up.


Where does it all stop????

Robyn

[john8662]

Glad that this tread was created, finally settled some underlying questions I've had about the new rumored cranks and a custom one.

More good stuff to chat with the gear heads about here locally!

Humor is good, but stabs are not...

Testing shall continue!

J

[grape]

i think our race stuff starts life as a 10" diameter forged billet.............kinda heavy

[gmctd]

Think I'd like to try some of that billet cola, even better if they had it in 'pepper............

[More Power]

Member Hans Hauschild recently sent me the following photos of GEP's new 6.5. You can see the GEP banner behind the engine.

http://www.thedieselpageforums.com/photopost/data/500/hansGEP65-01.jpg

http://www.thedieselpageforums.com/photopost/data/500/hansGEP65-02.jpg

I was told last summer that GEP was planning to increase power from 205 to 235. Hans indicated to me that GEP is now saying 250! :)

Part of what I heard last summer involved forged steel crankshafts, a block girdle, cooling system mods and fuel system upgrades.

A asked an independent OEM yesterday about the new engine and the billet crankshafts. I was told "Crankshafts are being stockpiled - approx 400 to 500. The machining takes longer because of the material. The first ones are made from billet steel to run tests."

It appears from the above images that the girdle is sectioned a bit (notched) on each side to show its design.

Notice what looks like an electric fan-clutch.... :)

It's interesting that they used 1989-95 accessory drive components, though the belt tensioner is in a non-stock location.

Some have theorized that the compression ratio has been reduced to accomodate the 250 hp rating.

More news when it becomes available....

Jim

[ronniejoe]

Using machined from solid (billet) components for testing is very common, even in the aerospace world. Large scale production usually would wind up being made from forgings.

That girdle looks very similar to the one that Andrew Ashwill made for his engine project. His was "billet", this one is cast.

[john8662]

Check out the t-stat housing, looks like it'll better accomodate DB2-type MFI injection pump, it's wide enough in appearance to hold dual stats.

Hmm...

Thanks for the pics Jim.

Pron for us Diesel heads...

J

[More Power]

Looks like intercooler plumbing on top of the engine as well... :)

Jim

[JoeyD]

I am glad they are still working the 6.5 but why go with a girdle when they could just design a deep skirt block?

[JohnC]

I like the polished billet oil filter...

[Hubert]

Cool!!! Glad to see new stuff and development for the future.

Just day dreaming really but I had pondered some thoughts about some type of REALLY BEEFY oil pan in conjunction with main girdle for a bolt on way of helping stiffen up things on bottom. That girdle looks pretty good. Also new pan to increase oil capacity.

I wonder if they incorporated any more or better oil cooling and or oil capacity with new bottom end "extension" ????

[john8662]

I like the polished billet oil filter...

Prolly Chrome ;)

[More Power]

I've wondered what the angled forms indicate in this image. Any ideas?

http://www.thedieselpageforums.com/photopost/data/500/hansGEP65-03.jpg

[EWC]

Clearance for a stroker crank :D

[ronniejoe]

Cast stiffening ribs for strength.

[simon]

What about meat for splayed main bolts?

[Robyn]

I too am currious as to why they did not cast the new blocks with a deep skirt and use cross bolted mains as was done in the Ford 427 Y blocks.

Far better design.

May have something to do with exisitng equipment and the overall cost to redesign the beast.

Probably more cost effective to just beef up the trouble areas and add the girdle instead.

The T stat area does not supprise me at all. The military is still using the DB2 pumps and probably always will to keep away from the nightmare of the electronics.

The DS4 would be a poor choice for a rig going into battle.

The Hummers are simple trucks that have simple mechanics that can be worked on under the poorest of conditions.
To bolt on the complexities of the DS4 would be foolish me thinks.

The DS4 was not done to the civilian rigs to make our life any better, it was to meet the EPA BS that is being shoved down our throat.

I can see though that this new engine should be a nice retrofit into our trucks.

With that big girdel on the bottom I wonder if there is enough room to fit it all into a pickup or Burb without issues with the front axle????????? Just a thought.

Robyn

[Robyn]

Just another thought.
After looking at the nice pix Jim posted, I think that big spacer/girdle is made of aluminum.

Same color as the front cover and such and if it was iron they probably would have painted it.
Unless its painted silver to just look kewl. ???????????

I would like to get a close look at that engine, as in touchy feely ;0)
I am also suspicious that those large stiffener bulges on the sides may have bolts going through them possibly counter bored into the lower rail area.

Get us a piccy of the inside of this beastie ;0)
Robyn

[a5150nut]

Whats with the crank case vent hose. Does it run back into the filler neck or is that a second one into a "Y" going to the turbo? And with the center mounted turbo, will it fit in Pick Up's? Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...........:rolleyes:

[gmctd]

Where you guys (and gal) seeing all this detail - all I ever get is great blank spaces with really huge letters to the effect of www.TheDieselPage.com (http://www.TheDieselPage.com)

i think this computer hates me...............:confused:

[DmaxMaverick]

Where you guys (and gal) seeing all this detail - all I ever get is great blank spaces with really huge letters to the effect of www.TheDieselPage.com (http://www.TheDieselPage.com)

i think this computer hates me...............:confused:


If you are seeing that image, you are either not logged in, or are logged in using the incorrect URL/IP.

Log off.
Click www.thedieselpageforums.com/tdpforum and log in w/ your user/pass.

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If you still can't get it, send me an email.

[More Power]

robyn said: I too am currious as to why they did not cast the new blocks with a deep skirt and use cross bolted mains

I've wondered the same thing. :confused:

Here's a photo I took while visiting DMAX in 2001, showing the deep skirt design used in the Duramax 6600. Side captured main caps would be nice for the 6.5... Jim

http://www.thedieselpageforums.com/photopost/data/500/deepskirt.jpg

[Robyn]

Jim
Very nice pix of the D Max

I have owned two 427 Ford Side oilers in the 67 vintage and one 427 Cammer of the same erra.

The side bolts have little spacers that are custom ground to fit exactly into a particular spot and are marked so they cant be mixed up. 2R- 2L 3R-3L and so on

I have never seen the breakdown on the D MAX but I ussume they do something similar.
With the crank all buttoned up with a deep skirt and tied into the rail its really tough to break them short of a catastrophic Kaboom.

High nickel iron block thats cast plenty heavy.

OMG we need to get the truck down to the spring shop and get the front end lifted out of the dirt.

I would like to know more about the new block you have pictured though.
I would bet the particulars are pretty well guarded right now too.


Robyn

[a5150nut]

Where you guys (and gal) seeing all this detail - all I ever get is great blank spaces with really huge letters to the effect of www.TheDieselPage.com (http://www.TheDieselPage.com)

i think this computer hates me...............:confused:

Somebody spiked our cool aid. Aint nothin there. We're just foolin with everyone! ;)

Or mabe your computer is playing games on you too! :eek:

[Robyn]

Play games, Us??? why we would never do that!

OH BTW I see a lot of posts with the extra little imodicons after a sentence or paragraph.
I hate to ask but how is this done?? I dont see any offering in my posting window other than adding one to the post in the reply listing??????????????????????


Robyn

[ronniejoe]

You need to use the enhanced editor. The settings are in the User CP.

[Robyn]

Thanks Ron
After I asked the question I went poking around in the User CP and turned it on.

Things are not safe now:p

[DmaxMaverick]

OH NOOOOO!!!

Missy Goodwench found the emoticons.......Lock the doors....Hide the women and children.....Abandon sh.......

[gmctd]

"Or mabe your computer is playing games on you too! :eek:"

:) Wouldn't be much of a challenge, if it was - I was an easy mark, even for MsPacman. :confused:

[Robyn]

Try poking around over in the USER CP section and make sure you have all the goodies turned on.
Your puter may be set so the pix wont show.

Check your browser settings.

What browser are you using?? Navigator or Explorer ???

Many times just a little tweek here or there will fix things up sweet.:)

[Robyn]

Jim
Will you see if you can get some piccy's of the 6500 upside down and showing that girdle looking thing from the inside out.

This would be way kewl!!!:D

[DmaxMaverick]

Try poking around over in the USER CP section and make sure you have all the goodies turned on.
Your puter may be set so the pix wont show.

Check your browser settings.

What browser are you using?? Navigator or Explorer ???

Many times just a little tweek here or there will fix things up sweet.:)



Adjusting CP settings won't help in this case. The "www.thedieselpage.com" image he is seeing is a replacement image. Without proper permissions, images in the photo album can't be viewed, so all you will see is the replacement image. This helps prevent bandwidth theft, hot linking, and copyright infringement. You must be logged in correctly here, or you won't have permission to view the images, even if they are linked to another website. If you can't view images while in the Photo Album (http://www.thedieselpageforums.com/photopost), you won't be able to view them when linked into web pages or this forum. Almost all the time this happens, users aren't logged into the forum correctly. If you enter this site by any means other than the alpha URL or a link from the subscriber site, you WILL have problems sooner or later. If your Bookmarks or Favorites URL contains an IP #, you will have issues. www.thedieselpageforums.com/tdpforum is the correct login address for the forums. Anything else will likely cause problems.

If anyone has issues with the website function, please direct them to me or Jim. We are aware of the issues that come up, and have simple solutions for most of them.

[gmctd]

Ok - I'm in - you're right, DmM - the DP url in my fav's had adopted some numbers - clicked on your link to find a totally different url, used it and voila! home free.

tnx

[DmaxMaverick]

Ok - I'm in - you're right, DmM - the DP url in my fav's had adopted some numbers - clicked on your link to find a totally different url, used it and voila! home free.

tnx

Excellent!

BTW....
The URL that got you fixed up is also known as the Billet URL. So it should be superior in every way. It'll cost you more, though. I'll bill you.

Brunch was so good this morning, I think I'll call it my Billet Brunch (I was the cook).

Sorry. Tryin' to get'er back on topic........

[Robyn]

OK that makes sense.
I have my computer set up to automatically log me in once the page opens.

[gmctd]

That billet dipstick tube is absolutely the cat's meow.......

If that 'girdle' is aluminum, looks like a fancy schmancy spacer to get around the real business at hand, across the mains-webbing inside, maybe with splayed outer bolts to get into the pan rails

(Those angled areas appear to be within the arc of the rod-cap nuts, and would be necessary if that girdle extended inward of the oem pan-rails)

They've plumbed the CDR back around to the oil fill tube, where there's less likely chance to pull raw oil thru at high cfm\Boost pressures - be an excellent arrangement for the current crop of 18:1 hi-po engines, or any performance upgrade, rather than have it plumbed to the street, as is common practice.

That does indeed look like an electric fan clutch setup, and I like the dual t-stat rearrangement to afford more space for IP operations - but, it's prolly only to save money on that long upper rad hose.

But, that's prolly also why they went back to the earlier accessory-mounting package - wouldn't have been room to move the t-stats forward with the late mounting arrangement.

IMO, of course..............

[Robyn]

I would really like to get my tools on one of those engines and tear it down all the way.
Fat chance of that happening in this lifetime me thinks ;)

I agree with you GMCTD on the nicks, bumps and bulges on that spacer under the block. There is definately something serious going on there.
That little jewel did not come cheap and is certainly there for a good reason.

Those angled areas very well may house a clearance slot for the rod nuts to swing through. Sure would like to see inside one. :D

[a5150nut]

I would really like to get my tools on one of those engines and tear it down all the way.
Fat chance of that happening in this lifetime me thinks ;)

I agree with you GMCTD on the nicks, bumps and bulges on that spacer under the block. There is definately something serious going on there.
That little jewel did not come cheap and is certainly there for a good reason.

Those angled areas very well may house a clearance slot for the rod nuts to swing through. Sure would like to see inside one. :D



OMG, Robyn did you forget your WD40 and the sun came out? Looks like sunburn to me! Oh, I forgot you found the trick tools................

I would like to see the inside of that motor too. But on my finances it would have to be here on this site.:mad:

[Robyn]

Yup me too.
My budgit allows for ebay junk and garage sale goodies.
Oh and dont foget craigs list crap too

My 91 Burb came off craigs list as did the Banks turbo setup and a few other piles of goodies I have stacked up.

As far as the trick tools go. YESSSSSSSSSSSSS.
Once the newness wears off though it will all be old hat and boring accept the smiles :) They are always good :D

Robyn

[moondoggie]

Good Day!

"Thanks Ron
After I asked the question I went poking around in the User CP and turned it on.

Things are not safe now:p" Now if we can just get her to hit two spaces between sentences in the same paragraph, instead of "Enter"...

Blessings! :D

[CareyWeber]

I would really like to get my tools on one of those engines and tear it down all the way.
Fat chance of that happening in this lifetime me thinks ;)

I agree with you GMCTD on the nicks, bumps and bulges on that spacer under the block. There is definately something serious going on there.
That little jewel did not come cheap and is certainly there for a good reason.

Those angled areas very well may house a clearance slot for the rod nuts to swing through. Sure would like to see inside one. :D



Get real I want it in my truck running!!!!;) :p :D

Carey

[john8662]

They've plumbed the CDR back around to the oil fill tube, where there's less likely chance to pull raw oil thru at high cfm\Boost pressures - be an excellent arrangement for the current crop of 18:1 hi-po engines, or any performance upgrade, rather than have it plumbed to the street, as is common practice.

Back to 6.2, amazing.

But... I like my non-epa friendly CDR vent (does one even need a CDR like this?).



I like the dual t-stat rearrangement to afford more space for IP operations - but, it's prolly only to save money on that long upper rad hose.

But, that's prolly also why they went back to the earlier accessory-mounting package - wouldn't have been room to move the t-stats forward with the late mounting arrangement.

IMO, of course..............

Glad you noticed too, guess I better get ready to polish another one...

[gmctd]

Well - dogs like to 'mark' their territory every where they go - don't see much point in doing that with the 6.5, but if you like leaving spots every where over several hundred-k miles, then you prolly won't need the CDR system, with it's added weight and hi-maintenance aggravation, to prevent main-seal leaks, eh?:eek:

[john8662]

Well - dogs like to 'mark' their territory every where they go - don't see much point in doing that with the 6.5, but if you like leaving spots every where over several hundred-k miles, then you prolly won't need the CDR system, with it's added weight and hi-maintenance aggravation, to prevent main-seal leaks, eh?:eek:

It has stayed...

The track owner might not appreciate my marking, actually already got in trouble for that once (diesel) :rolleyes:

[JoeyD]

I have the hose from the CDR going under the truck and not in the intake like it was stock. It does not drip on the ground though. It leaves a little coating on the bottom of the truck but it's to prevent rust

[moondoggie]

Good Day!

I was kinda hoping we'd get an update: http://www.thedieselpageforums.com/tdpforum/showthread.php?t=25237&highlight=condense

Blessings!

[moondoggie]

Good Day!

Back to the subject - my neighbor probably wishes there was a good forged crank for his 300" alcohol dragster - just paid $3000 for a billet one (last season's had a 3" crack, but didn't grenade - whew!).

Maybe his daughter goes > 200 mph this weekend at Cedar Falls. :eek: She made it to 192 mph when she was 16. The boys probably have a hard time impressing her with their rides, waddayathink? ;)


Blessings!
(signature in previous post)

[Robyn]

Gonna take a metric buttload of anything to impress that little girl.
Wow 192 at 16.
By the time she is 21 she'll be making warp speed :D

[Hubert]

So was this in fact an engine going into production anytime soon or just a concept or prototype for show sizzle?

Are they going to market it like the Optimizer? I did not see anything new on the GEP website I could find. In fact did not see info on the Optimizer either???

[More Power]

The engine changes will likely be announced on http://www.optimizer6500.com/ once they're ready.... ;)

Jim

[tommac95]

{ i penned this after only reading the first page of the thread ... sorry }

Metallic properties are determined by various means: alloy composition, heat treatments, and physically distorting/forming the grain structure.

I would agree with R.J. that (for the same/comparable) composition alloy, forged pieces are far superior due to the fact that the grain structure follows the shape .

R.J. is also clearly correct that for small runs {especially small shops} a forging process is unmanageable expensive (particularly large item like a crank).

I will unequivocally assert that the increasing prominence [to current dominance] of so-called "billet" manufactured articles represents the wide acceptance of CNC or computer-controlled tooling and cheap computers and software . The software program is much easier to pay off than a forging mechanism, and the tooling+software are more versatile to apply to form many different products.

Enter the variable of composition.... Being mindful that most pure metals have extremely limited applications [as gold and copper for electrical conductors] , and that most metal components are employed in the form of engineering alloys [as 14-Carat gold for strong jewelry, or silicon-bronze for corrosion-resistance]... note that there are whole classes of alloys [ie, commercially proven (initially proprietary) admixtures of metals] which can be cast , but are not capable of being forged , or cold-worked.

There are some heat-resistant alloys [also corrosion-resistant , etc] which cannot be forged/hotworked/coldworked ... yet have very, very fine mechanical (or other) properties in the AS CAST condition. It is quite possible that niche manufacturers can use CNC/billet fabricating techniques to create small production runs of very high-quality crankshafts {possibly superior to production forged cranks incorporating cheap commercial alloys} . These would command the $3000 price (or whatever).

Automobile manufacturers can only sell competitively-priced articles in the mass-markets. Thus the first (proven) cranks were forged ... then creative/experimental research developed cast steel cranks , now cast iron cranks are adequate for many purposes {and use only CHEAP cast iron (with appropriate heat treatment) instead of the superior alloys in the forged cranks ... or the even more dear admixtures in the quality billet cranks}.

And soooooo ..... One cannot a crankshaft properly classify , by production process alone. Composition matters .

I always wanted to have stainless alloy wire welded onto production (forged) cranks prior regrinding , for corrosion-resistance , but ... never got that far!

[moondoggie]

"Gonna take a metric buttload of anything to impress that little girl. Wow 192 at 16. By the time she is 21 she'll be making warp speed :D" She went 6.61 @ 204 last weekend.

[Peter J. Bierman]

That "electric"clutch in the picture is not electric but pneumatic.
This is an unlock clutch, part of the deepwater kit for the
humvee, you know, with the high intake and exhaust.
If they get to cross deep water they can disable the fan to prevent dammage to it.

I have one on the shelf, it has a cone shaped clutch wich disengage with airpressure.

So thats not realy new I guess:(

Peter

[opto]

Peter do you know where to get one of those??

[Robyn]

You can adapt the electric clutch from the T444E (Powerstroke) that is an aftermarket item from Horton.

It requires replacing the 4 bolt flange on the water pump with the threaded flange from the T444E/PS pump

They share a shaft size so the job is not a great one.
This also requires modifying the serp belt pulley to allow the threaded hub to pass through the pulley.
The bolt circle is the same for the pulley to bolt on to the flange.
The rest is some easy electrical wiring to get the unit working.
The controls are either auto from a temp switch in the head or manually with a dash switch.

I have a setup like this ready to go on my 95 dually.

The Horton unit is available through most Horton dealers.
Its about $600 USD and this is for the Horton parts.
The HO water pump must be purchased seperate and the PS flange scrounged up and swapped out.

Robyn

[Peter J. Bierman]

Opto,

Try your local CUCV dealer, most of them can get a hold of Humvee parts.

Peter