View Full Version : New Blocks and such from Diesel direct
Recently I was contacted by one of the folks over at the PLACE
He lives close by and has a 94 6.5 TD pickup.
The engine has many miles on it and had blown a head gasket.
I met with him and we looked things over and after the engine was completely out it was discovered that the fickle finger of fate had stroked the center main webs. :(
We discussed the options available to get the truck back under power again and as we all know once the block is toast its pretty much game over.
The pistons are marginal as are the heads so it was time to go looking.
The owner has given up on locating some used parts and has ordered a new overseas block and heads along with what is reportedly a forged crank. A master rebuild kit was also part of his order.
I will be getting a chance soon to look this stuff over very well.
We have been talking about shooting a how to video on doing a buildup on the 6.5
I am very currious about these blocks, heads and cranks.
As much as I find the overseas market a slap in the face to us it is a reality so I might as well avail myself the chance to get some first hand experience with the stuff.
I am told the raw castings are coming into the US and are being machined here on state of the art CNC's.
The pictures I have seen look wonderful, but pictures can make almost anything look great.
With the high cost of the GEP engines that are coming on line this may be a very viable option for the budgit builder.
I do hope that these Chinese blocks and heads dont turn out to be just an extension of all the other issues that the GM blocks had originally.
The main caps are 4 bolt just as original with the small outer bolts on the center 3 caps (No Splay) They do have oil spray though :rolleyes:
I have not seen a close enough view to be able to tell if any more material has been added in the web area though.
Time will tell.
The advertising hype all sounds great, but I am being guardedly optimistic about this.
As some of you have read in last summers posts I used a set of Clearwater heads on a 6.5. The engine is running fine and has about 20K on it now. Far too soon to really tell much as its been in very light service since the rebuild.
I am going to be involved to some degree in the build on this engine, how much remains to be seen.
I am grateful to get the chance and will assist as much as I can.
I do hope we can produce the assembly video as it will be good for any buildup on a 6.2/6.5 of any incarnation.
Its the plan to make this a good learning curve if at all possible.
I will keep you up to date as things play out.
Again, I want to thank the parties involved for asking for my help in this matter and I am looking forward to seeing this project through to a sucessful conclusion.
Robyn
john8662
04-26-2007, 09:37
See if you can find any identifying marking on the block in any way that might help identify one of these blocks, otherwise they are a copy on the "outside" but on the same on the inside (we're talking metal composition and placement of important details).
Personally, I hope it winds up as a pile of molten metal...
J
mkhagemann
04-26-2007, 10:20
if these blocks are being machined in the states, is it possible to delete the outer main cap bolt holes? this would allow a stronger splayed cap installation, since the practice seems to be plugging the outer bolt holes, which im not in favor of.
95 GMC C3500HD
Personally, I hope it winds up as a pile of molten metal...
J
Agreed, there are patent/copyright laws for good reason.....
Robyn, no offense toward you, please don't think that, but they are cheating. I'm die hard American and actions like these take our jobs IMO.
At least i'm assuming they are not officially liscensed to produce these?
More Power
04-26-2007, 10:42
Try to get a metal chip from the Chinese block. Then if someone can get me a chip from a Navistar block, I'll have them both analyzed for composition - comparing moly, among other elements. I still know some folks at an analytical lab... ;)
Jim
ronniejoe
04-26-2007, 10:47
It's really no different than aftermarket performance parts. There are no patents involved with the 6.5. If there were, they have long since expired, so that is not an issue.
The bottom line is that there is a market need and someone has stepped in to fill that need. Shame on GM, AMG and GEP for not filling the need.
For those who have suggested regulation...It's all about competition. Compete and be the best and you won't have to worry about regulations to protect your market. Actually, regulation is partly to blame for our inability to compete. We don't need more, we need less.
It's really no different than aftermarket performance parts. There are no patents involved with the 6.5. If there were, they have long since expired, so that is not an issue.
The bottom line is that there is a market need and someone has stepped in to fill that need. Shame on GM, AMG and GEP for not filling the need.
For those who have suggested regulation...It's all about competition. Compete and be the best and you won't have to worry about regulations to protect your market. Actually, regulation is partly to blame for our inability to compete. We don't need more, we need less.
If no patents, then carry on! Their history of simply ripping everyone off must have gotten the best of me!
Comparing competition from here to there is not apples to apples IMO.
If I were dictator; Nothing in, nothing out, and down with ALL unions......
No regulation simply caused price fixing! Although in general I agree with you..
OK, gotta run and put on my flame suit :D
john8662
04-26-2007, 13:31
IIRC, AMG (before it was GM owned) had to purchase the "rights" and plans to the 6.5L, no?
Why should anyone else be any different?
I'm not a big fan of reverse engineering, as is likely the case with the reproduction castings made overseas.
The product may look the same, and function similarly, but are they the same?
I'm betting no, it likely took GM several attemps in casting to get the block to do what they deemed acceptable?
Shame on GM and AMG! Afterall, they're still making an engine (and parts) for a product that was abandoned in 2000.
The price for an AMG engine isn't outrageous either, go price a new Dmax, Navistar, or Cummins engine...
Removal of Regulations? Let's face the facts, without regulating (aka rules) with people in general, things go badly. One over-used example, $3 diesel.
But, I won't explain the "conservative" lack of regulations here...
I'll be interested in seeing how this block stacks up though.
As for the heads, there hasn't been enough testing on the road to say either way.
From a machinists perspective, they don't machine the same.
A GM head (while resurfacing) is said to shave off in shiny filings, as you'd expect from a quality composition of alloy.
The Chinese heads will machine differently, the metal shaves off like gun-powder in a black substance.
Different? No, they "look the same"
So, I'll conclude by saying, is the Chinese engine a GM 6.5 or just a 6.5 Diesel engine?
hmmm..
J
ronniejoe
04-26-2007, 14:38
IIRC, AMG (before it was GM owned) had to purchase the "rights" and plans to the 6.5L, no?
They purchased all of GM's cummulative engineering knowledge and data files pertinent to the engine. That included drawings and other intellectual property.
Reverse engineering is what it is. Most of the aftermarket products that everyone cheers came about because of reverse engineering.
I'm not saying that I would run and out and use one of these blocks. What I am saying is that AMG has brought this on themselves by not making their new blocks available as bare blocks. That's a dumb business decision that just invites this type of stuff.
Do you complain about Donovon making aluminum SBC blocks with raised cam locations? Do you complain about the top fuel "hemi" engines based on the Chrysler product? These are examples of the same principal in operation.
In my opinion, I welcome the competition from oversees. We'll either get better or go out of business. My estimation is that we'll get better and beat them back. Several changes have to occur, though, for that to happen.
As for $3 fuel... The market is what is setting the price. Regulation will only make it worse. Government is the enemy here, not the savior.
Awesome Robyn,
Hope you and the Rat can show this is a good alternative to buying at the junk yard. I'm subscribed to this thread and to Rat's on dPlace to follow this story to the end. I'm all for doing the nasty polluting part off shore and doing the high tech part here. I hope y'all take up the offer to analyze sample chips from the casting.
john8662
04-26-2007, 15:52
Government is the enemy here, not the savior.
I'm not going to touch that one with a 20' pole.
...
As for the goods, I hope we get better, but I can't really see how, as there aren't many skilled people (or people that want to be skilled) in this type of work...
Now that we have completely Hijacked Robyn's thread, might as well toss this out:
Although I firmly believe in a minimal government, socialized meds, flat tax etc. I also believe 99.9999999999999999999999999% of the population is not mentally capable of making anything close to a good decision.
And while I'm still rambling:
No health insurance for lung cancer if you smoke
No health insurance if you bust yourself up without your seatbelt
Breaking your finger nail is not worth $100K when you slip at Menards
I could on forever! Rules why you don't deserve squat would make a great thread!
Let me make a few things reeeeeeeeel clear here.
First off I agree with almost everyone here, but as has been pointed out there are aftermarket blocks for almost every engine out there.
You can buy an aftermarket big bore Chevy rat motor block and they are absolutely wonderful, I have had two with 4.6" bores that made some GAWD AWEFUL power.
Anyway Im pro American made when I can get it.
As has been pointed out here the big boys shot them selves in the foot and abandoned the troops and now someone else is willing to make a go of it and fill the need.
I have no stake in this and am simply going to GO, LOOK, LISTEN, TAKE PICTURES, MEASURE and report what I find to the troops here.
If in my opinion its good stuff I am going to say so. Likewise if I feel after careful thought its junk I am going to say so.
I am not out on some damned fool crusade but just currious about the product.
OK That said now for some more news.
I just got off the phone with Brian over at SCAT Cranks.
They have a cast steel crank now available for the 6.5 TD
and the price is very right.
I have used this same crank material in their rat motor cranks and the last one I used went in a 500 cube beast thats towing some real heavy loads and works fine. Its been twisted upwards of 6000 RPM and just works great.
I have not a clue how this is going to be for the 6.5 TD but the extra strength cant hurt anything.
The stock GM noodle is 85000 PSI nodular iron.
The Scat steel crank is 105000 PSI steel.
This is a big change, unfortunately the dynamic in the diesel is so much different than the gassers that it may or may not be a blessing.
But, for whatever its worth I am going to try and get my hands on one asap and toss it in my 6.5 build.
Right now I am working on several projects and the $$$$ flow is not real high so we shall see.
My 6.2 J block and parts are supposed to be sold, if that happens I will order a crank and then I can give some first hand reports to Y'all
Later troops.
Robyn
dieseldummy
04-26-2007, 22:26
A point that no one has touched on yet (unless I missed it) is the mention of Diesel Direct. I have heard countless horror stories about these crooks! If this person has bought and paid for the motor make sure they get a tracking number or some sort of shipping conformation. Sure, Diesel Direct has great prices, but what good are they when you don't get the product?
Now assuming the engine is recieved in good shape and in a timely manner, I can't say that I'd shed a tear if it ended up in a molten puddle... I guess all those old farm implements and tractors we keep scraping out have to be made into something... I just wish it wasn't by the communist bastards in China!!!:mad:
JK offers a motor based off of the latest/greatest AMG block with a 12 month/unlimited mile warrenty for <$5000. Go price a reman Cummins, Dmax, or Powerstroke. Then think about if $5000 sounds like a steal. (does to me)
I know alot of people drive these rigs because they are cheap, but there comes a time when a line has to be drawn in the sand. If a person is going to buy a new block/motor to repower with it really should be a known good product made in the USA. If gambling with a cheaper block one might as well find a non cracked 6.2 and build it... At least we wouldn't be giving the enemy money.
BTW... Robin, how did you get a hold of Scat? I never could seem to be able to get in touch with them... A steel crank would be handy, IMO.
I went to Scats web site and called them on the phone.
From the time I looked up the web site untill I was talking to a person was no more than 5 minutes.
I have dealt with these folks before and had great service every time.
Now I am going to play the devils advocate here.
The reason we have blocks coming from china is not because the Chinese just happen to get a brain fart and decide to build them.
IMHO, some good O'll boys here went over and set this up to make themselves some $$$$$$$$$$
The castings are coming into this country and being machined here.
I know a little bit about foundry work and it seems to me that the castings can be made real good and fairly cheap when you dont have the likes of leaches like the EPA breathing down your shirt.
China has no such problems so undoubtedly their foundries are far more dirty than ours.
I also remember hearing that when the casting processes went away from the old technology we had up until the 70's or so and the new clean tech came in the costs went way up.
I am not sure about quality, whether this hurt that or not. The old iron we had in the 60's always seemed to be good??????
Any input here is welcome.
The secret is not if the castings are good but who set up the foundry and what sort of material are they pouring.
If I was to go to the trouble to go to a far off place and set up a foundry to pour castings for and engine block thats been out of general production since 2000 except for MIL stuff would I turn out crap????
I dont think so and here is why. The first few runs would get out and if the stuff is crap word would get around and that would be the end of it.
I have a feeling that whoever is behind this stuff is planning on making a product that will fill a need and sell a bunch.
Now for arguements sake it would be nice if the stuff was made here in the USA but that aint happening because the $$$ are not in it to do it here.
As I said I have no stake in this but am certainly going to give it a good look and report what I see.
To wish for these to turn out badly and be crap is well, HMMMMMMMMMMMM I find this to be a waste of time. You and I are not going to change the way big business thinks. The thing that changes big business is competition thats kicking there arse.
Bottom line, if the boys overseas can provide a good product at a very good price then the folks at AMG/GEP are going to lose a big slice of the pie.
Obviously they dont seem to want the civilian business as they are sure not making their prodcut easy for us to get our grubby little paws on it.
I would love a new AMG block but the price is out of line for my budgit.
The price I have heard for the Chinese block is $1400 ready to assemble.
This is well within reach of many folks who need a good block.
I am sad that our countrymen are selling this great country down the toilet but I cant stop them.
The whole system has slid in the ditch and is hopelessly mired in the mud.
Much of it is political and or power and they both go hand in hand.
Between the power brokers and the envirofreeks we will continue to see this trend.
For my limited dollars to spend on engines and parts to keep my non electronic dinosaurs running I will look at any and all options and certainly will not cut off my nose to spite my face.
The aftermarket is alive and well and with this venture some fat cat good O'll boys are getting rich, bet me :D
We shall see how this all turns out.
For now I will listen, watch and try to be objective..
Later troops
Snoop at large
Robyn
I just called up Scat to ask some questions. Here's the deal: their cast steel (it's really cast iron) 6.5 crank does NOT have rolled fillets like the GM and AMG cranks. They also don't appear to be nitrided. Fillet rolling more than doubles the fatigue strength of a crank, and nitriding improves it by around 20%. My opinion is that these cranks aren't going to be long lived in high output applications, but who knows. Someone (besides me :D ) needs to try one and see...
Robyn, how much did Scat say they wanted for the crank? Brand new AMG cranks are around $500, and I just picked up a NOS GM crank for $300. AMG is making forged cranks, but my understanding is that they are all going into motors right now. My guess is that when they get production ramped up enough to sell them they will be at least $100 more than the cast cranks. It appears the reason for their transition to forged steel isn't because the cast units are breaking right and left, but because they plan on pushing the HP up to alleviate sluggish performance on the uparmored HMMWV's. The forged cranks will give them the greater fatigue strength needed for the higher HP motors.
7.4 VORTEC
04-27-2007, 22:55
I think that Robyn and RJ on spot on. Shame on AMG (especially GM) for not providing blocks for what I consider a super loyal group. Regarding the costs of our blocks being less expensive than a Cummins, Powerstroke or Duramax, it better be. Our 6.5 suck when compared to the potential power of the other units, the longevity and cooling capacity from the factory. Hell, I'd bet our 6.5's wouldn't even be able to meet todays emissions if required with their old school heads and injector design. Try getting 350 reliable hp out of a 6.5 without spending "big bucks" to achieve it. I could spend double the dollars on a duramax vs a new AMG setup and still be dollars ahead because I wouldn't have to spend thousands to totally modify the 6.5 to compete and make it last.
The blocks out of China may be bad or they might be great. It all depends on the age of the foundry, their equipment, metal quality, etc. If they are built in a old 1960's low budget setup, then they will fail miserably because of low quality control. But, if its a new plant with the latest German designed equipment, I'd bet the quality might be better than the International Harvester foundry.
American plants often shoot themselves in the foot by "band-aide" repairs to their plants to keep them producing at low costs, high ROI and most important, keeping the stockholders happy. If the blocks out of China are decent, I'd take one of them over a stock reman or rebuild unit any day. The rebuild will only be as good as the guy (or gal) rebuilding it. Do you really think that a rebuilder is using highly trained and paid employees? Maybe yes, maybe no. Just compare a motor "built" by RJ vs a rebuilder...you get what you pay for.
I for one hope the Chinese block is a winner. We need more competition...sorry if it loses USA jobs but it's no ones fault but our own. I own a H1 Hummer with a 6.5 TD. In my opinion AMG doesn't really want to sell to you, Robyn, RJ or to me. They would rather just plug them into the Humvee for the military, much less hassle, much more profit. They sell to us because they have too. We are more of a pain in the ass to them.
Actually I'm pissed off at AMG for not spending the money and designing the 6.5 to run cool, have more power, etc. We have our USA troops overseas fighting valiantly for us, yet AMG gives them sub par motors that overheat and are under powered, etc. There has been documented cases where we've had US troops attacked due to Humvees breaking down (new trucks, not old units) due to overheating. Lets see, I'm sitting in a Humvee in a dangerous part of Bagdad and I'm not able to move.....and we wonder why we lose our precious boys and girls on a daily basis. About 6 months ago, 4 Wheel and Off Road Magazine had a 2-3 page article on how a soldier in Irag spent his time and effort buying a Flexilite type fan with a goverment credit card from Summit catalog and solved their failing Humvee situation. Flexilite actually designed a system for the Humvee and gave a part number to it and the military actually placed a large order for this "band-aide" which shouldn't have happened to begin with.
I'm all for big business and big profits...but don't come crying to me when some Chinese company kicks your ass because you didn't keep up with the market and its needs. (especially if your quality goes down) I'm surprised some Chinese manufacturer didn't pop up years ago when GM was marketing those fantastic 1996 through 1999 6.5's and give us a viable option.
Robyn, I hope your friends rebuild works out great for him, wether he goes Chinese or local.
Cheers,
George
Hello everyone. I'm the guy doing the buildup, and I'll use this as an opportunity to make my very first post here at "the page". I'm American as an American can get, -and have never owned a foreign car in my entire life, -ever.
I always buy American whenever I can afford to do so, -however, this time the situation is different. I'm without a truck, and without options. I have desperately looked for good core blocks, -but was unable to turn anything up other than used-up junk. I find it extremely disappointing and frustrating that us civilian 6.5'ers are unable to buy hard parts such as blocks and stuff. Sure, GEP/AMG is happy to sell us complete motors for an obscene amount of money, but I ain't got it, and I need the truck running.
Thanks to all the people looking at this objectively (robyn, ronniejoe, lifer, 7.4 vortec). I am also taking the time during this build to get it down to 18:1 with the Mahle pistons, -and using a forged crank, -not the SCAT cast steel one. The forged crank seemed like it was the best option, -and I didn't want to roll the dice on my 200k mile crank (any more than I already have).
Like Robyn has said, it is going to be an experience for all of us, -and I do plan on sharing the facts, -whether they're positive, -or negative. I am looking at this as an opportunity to share what I learn with the 6.5 community and to possibly help others in their quest to find decent build parts to keep their stuff running.
Like Robyn, I'm certainly no stranger to engine building. I used to build a LOT of motors for boats, street rods, and drag cars, -all makes and types. I am also a machinist by trade, -and will be giving these parts a very thorough checking over when they arrive. I also have a very trustworthy engine machinist that I have used and trusted for years and years, -and he too will be involved in checking everything out to the best of his abilities (short of checking the block with a CMM).
I'm out of options, ideas, and money all at the same time, -what else is a person to do? I was almost to the point of saying to heck with it, and building a damn rat motor and screwing that in the truck instead of dealing with the "6.5 nightmare". That's what it truly IS. When you can't get parts to keep your junk running because it's all used up, -and the suppliers want to bend you over, -well, you're where I'm at. :mad:
Hopefully Robyn and I can build a VIABLE 18:1 motor out of this stuff, -I'm pretty sure we can. I am honored to have Robyn on board with this build, and appreciate her willingness to be objective.
We should be getting the block and crank the end of next week. The inspection process will be lengthy, but we will definitely keep everyone in the loop as to what we find, -good or bad.
I just want the truck to run again, I miss having it.
Rich.
Well, I don't know what you mean by "obscene" amounts of money for an AMG motor. In the diesel world it is pretty reasonably priced. Also, good used 6.5 blocks are readily available - you just have to know where to look. Ditto for reasonably priced parts. It pays to shop around. I have found that some of the shops specializing in 6.5 stuff are pretty pricey, and many of the parts they sell can be found elsewhere for considerably less. Pistons are a good example: I have seen prices range from $350 to $1000 for the exact same Mahle pistons.
DennisG01
04-28-2007, 08:02
Hi Rich,
(I tried sending you a PM, but it wouldn't work - maybe becasue you're a "newbie"?)
I've been following this thread as I just started the process of having Ron Schoolcraft re-build my engine (and by the way, he has been absolutely wonderful to deal with!). If you don't mind me asking, where did you get your forged crank from and do you recall about how much it was? In the limited search I did, I came up with about $1,000. Also, IIRC, I seem to remember reading somewhere that someone said the China block costs about $1,500 to Canada - I could be mistaken - but about what was it to you? Forgive me if I'm being nosey - I just have a lot of questions when it comes to something as important as getting a strong, reliable engine. Obviously Ron will be checking my crank and block to see if they are in good condition, but my wife and I plan on keeping the Suburban for quite a while so I am not opposed to looking into options for reliablilty, longevity and, of course, more power handling:D !
Thank you for your time - I'm looking forward to seeing how this turns out for you!
Dennis
ronniejoe
04-28-2007, 08:50
Ratman...
Welcome aboard!
The thing that I am most interested in is the "forged crankshaft" as well.
My personal belief is that the factory cranks are pretty darn strong even though they are cast. I think most of the failures occur as the result of cracks in the center main webs that allow the cranks to flex more than they're supposed to resulting in breakage.
The crank in my engine has well over 200,000 miles on it. 158,000 in the warranty replacement engine that it came in and the rest in my "built" engine. Even before the project engine, I was running significantly higher than stock horsepower.
With that said, I'm always looking for ways to improve the margin. A forging, if done properly, will do just that. Therefore, I am extremely interested in what can be learned about this option.
As for the China business. Personally, I don't like doing business with them because I believe they are an enemy. However, I really do believe in the concept of free trade. I think we all win when capitalism is allowed to work. There are a lot of reasons why we don't compete effectively right now, but I don't wan to go into that again, it's not the purpose of this thread.
I will say this: I've worked for Caterpillar both directly and as a consultant. You might be surprised just how much of their content is made oversees. Caterpillar is heavily invested in China and so is John Deere. They're both deeply involved in Europe as well. You can't get any more American than these companies and significant percentages of the components in their products are produced over seas.
Howdy all
Well I could not put it better myself.
When the cost of replacing an engine far exceeds the value of the vehicle its going in, one has to pause and ask some really hard questions.
Now if the vehicle is one you are going to keep for an extended time period and can drive out the dollars spent then by all means its worth it.
I spent just under $2K on the rebuild of our 94 Burb engine last spring.
It was a patchup job with rings, bearings, seals, lifters, heads (overseas) injectors and a few external goodies.
I did not resize the rods or bore the block or install new pistons.
The prospects if building a "brand New" engine if you will for a very affordable price is inviting.
Even if the chinese blocks only last as good as many of the original GM ones did (200K) its a bargain.
One needs to remember here, and I will mention it again.
I dont believe this is a Chinese venture, American ambition took this project over to China and set it in motion.
Many seem to think its a Chinese action to take over our market place, I dont think this is the case at all.
The blocks are being machined here in the States with most likely overseas made CNC machines :eek: Hmmmmmm
Ever stop and think about all the factories here in the states and how much of the production machinery is or is not made here.
A goodly amount of the top end CNC stuff comes from over seas.
I looked high and low for a small Bridgeport mill and a small lathe for my shop.
No way could I find or afford them.
I own a Maxmill 9X42 and a Takisawa TSL 800 lathe.
The mill cost me $400 off ebay and its in like new condition.
The lathe came from an ebay auction for $1000 and its in great shape too. Locally I found one 9x42 Bridgport and the outfit wanted $7K and the thing was junk.
We are simply bound to live by what we can afford to spend.
If I had an unlimited supply of money I certainly would do things differently but I am not sure exactly how.
I would certainly not trot off to the car store to buy the overpriced products that they offer and I absolutely would not buy new.
I can identify with what Rich is going through.
Truck broken??? need engine, cost an issue, yessssss, what to do???
Go to TDP and ask for help.
Rich called me a couple weeks ago and asked me to come over to his house and look things over.
Well I did and we looked over all the options and what there was was not a great choice.
Around here 6.5 Blocks are a scarce item. The ones you do find mostly are completes and the bone yards want a fortune for a complete engine.
Once you get it home we all know what might be found lurking in dark places within the bowels of the little beast.
In looking for a 6.5 for myself a few months ago I found loads of scrap iron with big dollar price tags on it.
Took a while to finally find One good block.
At the time I bought mine I insisted the seller stamp the block with markings and gaurantee that the block was usable.
Many sellers wont gaurantee the blocks or they poo poo the idea that main web cracks are of any serious concern.
I got into a bunch of Military take out 6.5/6.2 blocks for $200 each.
I sorted through far too many to think about and to the last one all had serious issues that were too costly or too iffy to waste any $$$ on.
If you live in an area that you can find good cores, my recommendation is to buy every one you can and sit on them.
Rich and I are talking seriously about doing a DVD video production on the assembly of his new engine and covering all aspects of a buildup as well as a review of the new products.
One of my little businesses is "Cloud Mt. Productions"
I do small video jobs.
Doing this build on a nice video will be a snap and if all goes as planned we will make it available.
Keep you posted as things progress
Robyn
Just a side note on overseas prodcuts from CAT
I have had several Cat dozers here at the ranch in the last few years that I got from the rental yards to do projects with.
The last machine I rented was a CAT D5H LGP with a 6 way blade.
Tag on the machine says "made in Japan" I learned that all the smaller machines are made overseas anymore.
One thing about Cat though, you can buy repair parts for stuff that they made in the 40's
I had, up until a couple years ago a D2 5J dozer that was made in 1940 and I could buy almost anything I needed to fix it.
Not always cheaply but I could get parts for CAt for it.
Just a note
Robyn
ronniejoe
04-28-2007, 09:39
The D5H is an older machine (now replaced by the D6M) that should have been made in East Peoria. At that time they may have built a few in Japan (must have). Every "C" model track-type tractor is built in Japan at a joint venture operation. This includes all of the oval track tractors (D2C, D3C, D4C, D5C). What used to be a D4H is now a D5M. The D5M and D6M are now made in France at Grenoble (been in the factory there) The D6R and up are built at building SS in East Peoria.
For those interested in the forged crank, -that too is a diesel direct piece. I have spoken to Kris at diesel direct to great lengths regarding the block, crank, etc.
Supposedly made at the same forge that Cat and Cummins use over there. He said it's a very nice piece, and was designed/evaluated using the same software that Lotus in UK uses when designing crankshafts. Like Robyn and I were just discussing yesterday, -software this and that doesn't mean diddly squat to us, -what matters is real world testing. Kris at diesel direct has done just that, -with three engines. One is on a dyno, -the other two are in customer's engines, -which are accumulating miles as we are talking about this.
Diesel direct hasn't been difficult to deal with, -although they are sometimes hard to get a hold of. Kris informed me that they are right in the middle of building a new building, -and he's been tied up with contractors, inspections, etc.
And finally, for whatever it's worth, I did talk to Brian at SCAT about the cast steel piece they offer. Ya wanna know what Brian told me to do? BUY THE FORGED CRANK! -Yes, that is what he told me. He said that China is waaaay ahead of us in terms of casting and forging technology, -and that if you want the best, -that is where you have to go now. That's where all the money is going, -sad, but a harsh reality.
I see this country going broke, -really soon, due to corporate greed, goveronment, and laziness.
Being a working middle class person supporting both goveronment, and losers on welfare, -I'm getting damn tired of paddling the boat.
One reaches a point where you want to take your oar, and start knocking people out of the boat with it (figuratively speaking).
Not to get overly political here, -but, -revolution anyone?? ;)
Whats really sad is our own people are going over seas to put our technology to work without the hastle of EPA and other regulatory agencies here that are at the beck and call of the special interest Envirofreeks.
The technology is still here and it works wonderful its just too costly to do it here.
So we slowly slide into being a subservient nation of hasbeens. :(
One day in the not to far future you will find nothing hardly at all thats made here in this country.
Once our industrial might is totally imasculated then it will be very easy to just turn off the switch on us and be done with it.
I am too old to really be effective in any way to change this stuff and the young people are too brainwashed to know and or care.
That said lets talk about diesels.
Ron
The Cat I refered to definately had a large metal type tag on the inside rear of the ROPS with all the machines particulars such as Make Model and serial number. WAS made in japan
Was a beautiful machine.
I could do more work by accident with that thing than most guys could on purpose with some of the older stuff.
The last major work here was when I built the new arena and horse stable.
I had to back fill the arena that is 60 X 100 feet and it varied from 3-10 feet deep of fill.
The pole building was set up with the poles on hard clay at about 5 feet down and then the building set to grade on the upside.
I moved all the dirt from surrounding areas and pushed it into the arena with the D5H and then we spread it and compacted it.
That was absolutely the easiest dirt job I have ever done.
The extra super wide tracks on that thing made the side hill work a breeze too.
I would have one parked in the machine shed except for the price tag and for the most part no justifcation for such equipment.
The one we had was brand new when it arrived. I was the first rental on it.
I worked its butt off for two days.
I still dont like the decel pedal, I prefer a live throttle pedal instead like some other machines have.
The foot throttle makes it far easier IMHO to do fine grading work especially in close quarters
I have not driven the M series machines but Im sure they are just as sweet to operate.
I grew up on J and U series D2's and some older D4 and D6 stuff.
Iron monsters that you had to rule with an iron fist.
Neighbor had an ancient D7 that he got down in the bushes one winter and tossed a track off, Gawd what a job that was to get back on :eek:
Machine sideways on a slope with the downhill side track off and the machine about 20 feet from the track. Master pin had broken and then as the track came apart it tore the link all up.
We had to replace one link and the master pin. Of course it was all rusty and we did not have the trick tools to do it the easy way.
Two pickups with winches, snatch blocks, cable, much foul language and a day and a half later it was fixed.
My last machine had a rope start pony engine. (D2 5J number 2577)
That magneto on the pony was always a PITA.
Wet and foggy weather here wreaked havoc on winter reliability of the old pony start machines.
Dad had one that he had rigged with a hydraulic start system that he powered off a little gas engine to run the hydraulic pump.
Two quick connects to the power unit and zoom the cat was going.
kept the power unit in the warm garage during the winter months.
Old beasts without glow plugs and they were precup engines to boot.
Lots of Ma Startly in the cold weather.
Them was the GOOD OLD DAYS :rolleyes:
Robyn
For those interested in the forged crank, -that too is a diesel direct piece. I have spoken to Kris at diesel direct to great lengths regarding the block, crank, etc.
Supposedly made at the same forge that Cat and Cummins use over there. He said it's a very nice piece, and was designed/evaluated using the same software that Lotus in UK uses when designing crankshafts. Like Robyn and I were just discussing yesterday, -software this and that doesn't mean diddly squat to us, -what matters is real world testing. Kris at diesel direct has done just that, -with three engines. One is on a dyno, -the other two are in customer's engines, -which are accumulating miles as we are talking about this.
So, how much is the forged crank?
ronniejoe
04-28-2007, 15:30
I hate that decel pedal... I told them so loudly and clearly when I worked there. They said it differentiated them from the other brands. True, I pointed out, in a bad way.
I had the priveledge of working a prototype D6M direct drive back in 1998 at their proving grounds. It had the finger tip control, which is cool as beans after running my uncles's 1948 D4... I also spent a lot of time a 1958 D4 in my younger years. I was designing new steering clutches for the D5M/D6M to go with a new 5 speed counter shaft transmission. The project ended up being cancelled before it made it to production. I also ran a D8R while there with differential steer system. That is cool too.
MAXPF
$395 FOB Florida
Not even a bad price. eh? :D
Ron
I agree on the decel pedal.
Controls need to be standardized.
I always viewed the decel pedal as a safety hazard.
Too may other dozers all have the throttle pedal and then to get on a Cat and have it work backwards was anoying.
Like years ago when there were several different arrangements on the gear selectors for automatic trannies in cars.
Any similar equipment needs to be standardized as far as controls go.
Just makes good sense.
I want a new Dodge Pickup with a throttle that you push on to slow down :eek: OMG :D
Or maybe you push on the pedal so your Ford burns the paint off the little sports car along side.????????:rolleyes:
One thing that would be very handy on the new Cats would be WARP DRIVE. When I was doing the barn project I rooted out a nest of yellow jackets, Damn that Cat was slow to get me out of the area.
Got the crap stung out of me too while I was trying to cover the nest up with a blade full of dirt.
Ended up going back after dark and giving the nest some diesel treatment :D
Problem solved.
Interesting to hear about the cool stuff.
I really enjoyed the ergonomic improvements that have come about. The single stick controls on the 6 way blade is sooooooooooooooo nice.
Almost an extension of your hand the way that blade responds.
Just sit back relax and become one with the machine and let it be an extension of your mind.
I had that 5H in places that I really shouldn't have taken it but it did fine.
Very steep side slopes make me jittery but I had to get the job done.
The rental folks probably would have been pissed if I had rolled it over on its lid. :eek:
One spot I got into I had the machine nose up almost straight up and down. Obviously thats not possible but it was very very steep and I had serious case of pucker factor going. (yes my seat belt was on and tight)
One push I had to take the machine up and over the break and onto a ledge that was just long enough to get it on and turned sideways.
Cat does make a fine machine for sure.
Still not sure about the electronics wizardry they have bolted on them though.
I suspect time will tell just how rugged and dependable it is.
Robyn
Ron
Has anyone done a large crawler with hydrostatic drive and a swash pump for each track similar to how the skid steer loaders work??
I have seen some little crawlers done this way. (Rubber treaded units)
The local farm equipment yard here has a cute little Yanmar crawler and I think it was done that way.
Very cute little toy, probably do a lot of work too.
Robyn
This thread has gotten a little off the original subject here so I will steer it back on.
I can say with certainty that none of us are real happy about the way things are going in this country as far as manufacturing and we all love our GM trucks and diesels.
Unfortunately you and I are not going to make it all change so we might as well enjoy anything good that comes down the pike.
If these imported blocks turn out to be a good deal I for one am going to enjoy what comes of it.
I see no point in sitting back griping about this or that and crying cause it was not made by good O'll MA GM.
These are the folks that took our money and gave us junk and fought us every step of the way and in some cases refused to take care of legitemate warranty claims.
My faith and loyalty to these folks is definately in question.
They are all the same any more so its really a moot point.
Lets give all this new stuff a good careful lookover and test as much of it as possible and see how it shakes out.
Who knows it might just be really good stuff.
Robyn
ronniejoe
04-28-2007, 18:40
Ron
Has anyone done a large crawler with hydrostatic drive and a swash pump for each track similar to how the skid steer loaders work??
Not that I'm aware of. Too many losses for the high power stuff. In the late 90's, Cat was looking at making their oval track stuff (the small track-type tractors) with hydrostatics, but I'm not sure if they ever did or not. Haven't been around one of the little ones in a long time.
Cat's hydraulic excavators (crawler hoes) (better watch out, don't want to end up like Imus:D ) are hydrostatic and so are their new skid steers.
John Deere used hydrostatic drive as an option on their combines back in the 70's and 80's (may still, I'm not sure). My uncle had a JD 6600 that was hydrostatic drive. That thing was sweet in the field.
As long as the system is built big enough and can get rid of the waste heat they will work fine.
A friend of my dads built a 8 wheel drive articulated off road explorer vehicle for roving in the mountains doing prospecting for gold. The thing twisted in the middle as well as the articulation and the wheels were in pairs mounted on bogies to further give the thiing the ability to handle rough terrain.
He had a 265 cu in chevy V8 coupled to some big hydraulic pumps that were in turn coupled to two very large swash pumps that ran the 4 hydraulic drive motors.
The system could be powered so all wheels turned the same or they could be powered up individually (each Bogie) and or run in selected directions.
The idea was to be able to free it from a bad spot if need be.
It would make about 15-20 MPH wide loose ( governed speed)
Looked like something off of star wars. Had a flying bridge as he called it where the visibility was good in all directions and all the controls were located.
I wish I had a pix of it, that thing was a hoot.
He had two large engine driven water pumps on board too to provide water for his sluice boxes at the dig.
Thing just needed a set of 50 cals on top to look like something real bad ass.
The guy was an inventor extrordinair and would build stuff from all sorts of cast off parts and bits he got his hands on.
He used that contraption (as he called it) for many years on his gold dig.
Not sure what ever became of it.
We have a Scat Track skid steer here at the ranch, made in 96 and has been absolutely wonderful little tool.
Kubota 4 cylinder power.
Mid engine longitudinal mount with the swash pump near the front and the engine under your butt.
Very good on climbing and does not tend to roll over backward like the Bob Cat will with its rear engine.
Also has exemplary access to all the mechanical stuff.
Robyn
MAXPF
$395 FOB Florida
Not even a bad price. eh? :D
Well, it's cheaper than an AMG cast crank, but more than I paid for an NOS GM crank. :D Hopefully it's a non-twist forging made of good steel and has induction hardened journals like the Cat/Cummins/Detroit/Isuzu/etc. stuff, otherwise it's fatigue lifetime could end up being less than the cast cranks. Just because it is forged steel doesn't automatically guarantee superior performance. It needs to be a suitable alloy and have the right heat treatment(s) in order to have better properties than our current rolled fillet nodular cranks.
Well, it's cheaper than an AMG cast crank, but more than I paid for an NOS GM crank. :D Hopefully it's a non-twist forging made of good steel and has induction hardened journals like the Cat/Cummins/Detroit/Isuzu/etc. stuff, otherwise it's fatigue lifetime could end up being less than the cast cranks. Just because it is forged steel doesn't automatically guarantee superior performance. It needs to be a suitable alloy and have the right heat treatment(s) in order to have better properties than our current rolled fillet nodular cranks.
Well, certainly you bring up some good points, however, I would bet my money on the forged piece versus the cast piece anytime. While it is imperative that the nodular pieces have generous fillet radii in order to reduce stress risers, the forging has the clear advantage of a packed grain structure, -something that cannot be achieved in any casting due to the natural shrinkage that takes place as the metal cools. That is why riser placement is so critical when casting parts (to compensate for shrinkage).
Like I said, you do bring up some valid points. I seriously doubt it is a non-twisted forging, -but even so, it is still leaps and bounds above a cast piece in my opinion. As far as heat treatment goes, it is either induction hardened, -or nitrided. Kris wasn't sure, but it is definitely one or the other. Nitriding typically cost more, so it is probably induction hardened. It has been my experience that induction hardeneing causes the metal to "gray", wheras nitriding can produce various other "coloring" of the surface (depending on the alloy and the amount of carbon present at the surface). We should be able to tell one way or the other.
The choice I made to buy the crank wasn't limited to cost (as I was ready to spend $755 for a brand new GM crank), but rather my experience with forged versus cast.
The proof will be in the pudding when Robyn and I get it running and head into town looking for some PSD's to stomp on! :D
In all seriousness though, hopefully it works good enough to get the job done.
Rich.
dieseldummy
04-29-2007, 00:34
So let me get this straight. Your willing to spend $1400 for a chinese block, $400 for a crank, $700 for a set of pistons, $200?? for rods, a set of chinese heads will run around $650, $80 for lifters, $150 for gaskets/head bolts, and $50 for consumables. Total of: $3630+/- with no warrenty, and no labor cost figured in. These are all just estimates of qoutes and prices I've been given over the years.
For a savings of around $1400 is it really worth it?
If you figure your time is worth something ($20/hr) and taking your time building it (10 hrs) thats another $200. (Which is very conservative of what it would take to have a motor built IMO.) That would take the total up to $3800 and make the difference $1200.
I know aftermarket warrenties can be purchased for less than $1200, but are they going to cover chinese parts? Is the piece of mind an AMG motor would provide worth $1200? To me it would, but I guess not to a few of you...
Of course I might never know since I tire easily and single posts that last pages on thier own are hard to sift through... Ms. Moderator.:eek:
I hope it works out as well. I would probably have gone that route if I hadn't scored a brand new GM crank for $300 http://defiant.blogdns.com:5002/emoticons/deal.gif Still, I don't have the same trepidation about using a nodular iron crank as many others do. Most never break, and most of the ones that do can be traced to a cause other than the crank.
BTW, anyone want to guess what motor this crank is in?
http://defiant.blogdns.com:5002/pics/73crank.jpg
So let me get this straight. Your willing to spend $1400 for a chinese block, $400 for a crank, $700 for a set of pistons, $200?? for rods, a set of chinese heads will run around $650, $80 for lifters, $150 for gaskets/head bolts, and $50 for consumables. Total of: $3630+/- with no warrenty, and no labor cost figured in. These are all just estimates of qoutes and prices I've been given over the years.
For a savings of around $1400 is it really worth it?
If you figure your time is worth something ($20/hr) and taking your time building it (10 hrs) thats another $200. (Which is very conservative of what it would take to have a motor built IMO.) That would take the total up to $3800 and make the difference $1200.
I know aftermarket warrenties can be purchased for less than $1200, but are they going to cover chinese parts? Is the piece of mind an AMG motor would provide worth $1200? To me it would, but I guess not to a few of you...
Of course I might never know since I tire easily and single posts that last pages on thier own are hard to sift through... Ms. Moderator.:eek:
I was sorta thinking the same thing. The AMG motors seem to be holding up fine in 300HP marine apps, cast crank and all. I would rather spend the extra dough and get something with a warranty and lots of operational history rather than a bunch of unknown quality parts. A GM 8.1L gasser longblock lists for $5400 at Pace. A 502 short block will run $4600, and you would still need heads. The AMG 6.5 is comparable in price to these gassers. For a new diesel, it's a bargain.
diesel dummy
My posts are just like me, I get verbose and thats just the way I am.
I try not to leave half an idea in a post..
The issue here is still linked directly to, not is the product from or not from the USA.
The cost is certainly reasonable as compared to the brand new stuff coming up.
If you can buy new old stock GM stuff at right prices its definately worth looking at.
Some places in the country seem to have an abundance of used 6.5 stuff available.
I will venture a guess that in areas that use a lot of salt on the road will see far more used engines available for sale.
Here in the pacific northwest we regularly see rigs from the 60's still in everyday service.
50's rigs are not all that uncommon but certainly far less in number.
I sold a 95 Burb to a fellow in the east a couple years ago and he was delighted to get a 95 with 200K on the clock.
Ratman and I are going to follow this chinese engine parts thing through to its logical conclusion and report what we find.
The market place can't continue to function on the fast dwindling supply of used GM 6.5 stuff.
Here there are more 6.2 engines now than 6.5 stuff.
Its a simple case of supply being overun by demand and someone is going to fill the void.
Nuff said.
Be aware that if the conclusion of this buildup yields unfavorable results or opinions I will post it in all its dirty liitle particulars.
Later
Robyn :D
To those questioning the cost, -yes, admittedly, it has spiraled just a tad, -but even so, it is still looking very favorable. In regards to the nodular crank, -I just couldn't see using one that has 200k on it.
First off, the $4600 (or so) is still a good deal considering it will be entirely brand new (except for the resized rods and cam).
And, to second what Robyn said, -the 6.5 parts in our area are non existent. I didn't find a SINGLE block that wasn't cracked. When I called the local core supplier that a few machine shops told me to call, -the guy laughed on the other end of the phone when I told him I was looking for a block. He said he gets on average 4-5 calls a DAY asking about 6.5 blocks, -and that 7 out of 10 that they do get, -are broken, -that's not good folks.
Say what you will, but sooner or later, someone has to check into this new aftermarket stuff, -may as well be me.
I am one of the many who are pissed at GM/GEP/AMG, -and quite honestly, -I'd rather give my dollar to the aftermarket guy at this point.
I think it's going to end up being just fine. Can't be any worse than the junk we've been getting from the GM boys.
Just a note
The idea was mentioned of needing to buy rods and such for a build.
The 6.5 rods have never seen any issues I am aware of.
Just had a set of 200K milers looked at and the big ends were within .0002"
Good enough fo my money. Cams can easily run way past 200K.
Issue in point is a lot of good 6.5 parts can be used to build up a nice engine.
I would not hesitate to use a set of good used standard pistons if they are in good shape.
These pistons can easily run 400K miles
A goodly portion of the parts from a 6.5 can be transfered to the new block and crank assembly.
The foundation is the biggy.
As far as warranty goes, when I build an engine I guess I am my own warranty.
If you are buying a unit from a shop, then by all means be sure to get something to cover it for a reasonable time frame.
As usual, still stirring the pot
Robyn
As far as warranty goes, when I build an engine I guess I am my own warranty.
If you are buying a unit from a shop, then by all means be sure to get something to cover it for a reasonable time frame.
As usual, still stirring the pot, Robyn
There ya go, -you've done it again, -ya got me smiling and nodding again!
I was gonna fly over this morning, but it's gettin' windy already.
Rich.
When it comes to warranty I have a fairly cinical outlook.
I know the vendors that market their products here do a good job of standing behind what they sell/build.
When a company makes a big to do about their warranty I sort of get the idea that they are trying to get your mind off the idea that maybe the product just might not be so good.
I have built loads of engines in my career as well as auto trannies and other automobile stuff.
I can only remember one rig that came back and that was for a ignition module that quit shortly after the rig left my shop.
Well to make a long story short I did not touch the module during a routine tune up but I took care of the thing and sent the customer on their happy way.
Speaking of warranties. My 1997 Powerstroke made it 12 miles from the dealership and the sucker went all over the street.
Dealer had the truck for 2 months before I got it back and it was a hastle all the way.
Now keep in mind this was a brand spanky new truck too.
The warranties dont impress me one little bit.
What will get my attention faster than anything is people who make a good product, sell it for a reasonable price and dont make a big fuss about it all.
If and when you have an issue they just take care of it and dont try spoon feeding you a buttload of excuses as to what you did wrong that caused it all.
Now many of you know Im in the gun business, I am also a manufacture and we hold a firearms manufactures license and also and SOT that entitles us to build full auto stuff.
Now I also do commercial reloading too. A while back I broke a small part on my big Dillon Press. I called Dillon and told them what I needed and what had happened. It was my fault that the little part broke totally.
I got the new part the next morning and they did not even charge me for it.
Now thats service.
Try expecting that from your favorite car dealer, aint gonna happen friend.
Worry worry worry.
I buy used rigs off of ebay and have never had one gripe at all about not having a warranty.
Do it right and ya dont really need one.
For those here that do your own work you are the reason its gonna be just fine.
You have assembled your engine correctly and done the second guessing and thats all thats needed.
If you are buying your stuff out then you need to know the seller intimately and feel real warm and fuzzy about their performance record.
Just some ramblings.
Robyn
john8662
04-30-2007, 01:00
ramblings indeed.
A warranty is a promise to the buyer that the seller strongly believes in the product that they are selling.
No warranty = no confidence.
In general though, what is the brand of this block? Seriously!
A central Branding is in order for their aftermarket block, like the rest of the aftermarket block casters (as prev mentioned for gassers).
It's probably not Diesel Direct or RJ_performance (in Canada).
A brand name is more than just a name. I can't count the times that I've unwrapped a new tool, part, etc. and it has no name stamped on it. So that later, when the packaging is all gone, and the parts and or tool fails, then you won't even know who to go though for replacement, or "man, that part was crap, what was it so I don't buy that again..."
I see this even in PC computer components, sad sad, so they don't have to provide after sale support (like software drivers, etc.).
Just more to chew on.
Now, with that said. I, like everyone else on this board am willing to see how this turns out, good or bad.
Thanks for the read, I hope it's not too long ;)
John :D
Yes I know what you are saying, I guess I am just reacting to all the sour input and we have not even seen the iron yet.
To really do the evaluation justice I am thinking Rich and I will do it all on video and then Burn it on a DVD.
This will give some "hopefully good pictures" as well as loads of dialogue.
In this format everyone can see what we see and then actually have a better idea of what we are talking about.
I think that this video will be a seperate video from the one we are going to do on the buildup and will be available free to the subscribers of the page ????????
Not sure yet, just thinking out loud.
The forum is just to confining to really let me get down and dirty and touch on all the nitty gritty.
I want to really let it rip when we do this and be objective.
A am not looking to be "FAIR" I am serious about reporting just what I see. If its good Im gonna say so and if not I gonna say so.
The fit, finish and dimentions are going to be scrutinized carefully.
Also if this turns out to be good stuff there may be a possibility that this might become available through some of us up here in the Northwest.
I am talking with Rich about such a venture but its far too early to say much more.
As far as the computer stuff goes,all computer components have a number stamped on them somewhere that tells what it is and who made it.
For example, a Mother board that is a basic no name or as you said, the paperwork got lost, can be traced easily on line and drivers found or whatever.
I have only found one item that I could not find drivers for or identify and it was because the number tag was partially missing and so it made it difficult.
Later
Robyn
John, thanks for the support.
Believe me, -I'm still trying to "get over" the whole thing, -but it still manages to give me a stomache ache.
Hopefully I don't get burned, -and hopefully the parts look "equal to" or "better than" what we've been able to get our paws on. It'll sure be nice if this all pans out. Hopefully we can all learn something here at my expense.
Life's a chance, -ain't it?
Sometimes ya gotta take chances to make progress, -even if ya gotta take several steps back once in a while.
I can't wait to see it when it gets here. I will admit, -I had a bad dream the other night that the block showed up all rusty, -and when I called diesel direct, the number was disconnected!
Pretty bad when I'm already having bad dreams about it. Maybe I need to drink more Jack before bedtime?? ;)
john8662
04-30-2007, 10:27
No Jack needed to sleep, you're just anxious, but I totally understand.
You're welcome for the support, I thank you for being the guinea! :D
As far as fit and finish as Robyn mentions, check it all, with GM parts and aftermarket, to see if there are any differences.
Your old block cleaned up would make a great mock-up for comparison for fit. I know a current AMG block for comparison isn't in the picture currently though.
I like the idea of posting some of the information via a video, but that would be too large and take up more time than the engine build.
Pictures would be great. Some of the pictures can be posted and organized in the Photo Album (to keep them from being stolen by another un-named site).
Or upload them to a website, I can help with that as well.
J
Hi all
I have, as of this morning got some new and interesting information about this project.
I am going to keep it off the board until I can verify the validity of this information.
We have beat this to death over the last few days and I really dont want to keep flogging this critter unless I can offer something constructive.
Please keep an eye on this thread as I will be updating things as soon as I can do so with reliable information
Thanks troops
Robyn
Would weighing the new block give any idea of material added when compared to an older one
Would weighing the new block give any idea of material added when compared to an older one
Yeah, -we'll do that for sure, -but where the material is added is the key.
Kinda like porting iron SBC/BBC heads. I had an old-timer teach me how to do it years ago, -and he always said "it's not how much material you can remove, -but where you remove it from"
Words of wisdom right there.
The same applies to this block, -except in a reverse sorta way.
We'll post-up when we know more.
Rich.
Weighing is definately a yesssssssssssss
Also one of the key tests is going to be obtaining a small sample of material from a place that wont botther and sending it off to a test lab for analysis.
We will most likely use a drill bit 1/8-3/16 and drill a little divit in a spot on the rear flange area that is superfluous.
Jim has access to the test lab and we will get the materials to him.
Would be sweet if we could coerce some small chips from a new AMG/GEP block to compare.
My guess is the overall added weight is going to be very little.
The key to success here is to reinforce a few critical areas and to remove some stress risers in those areas as well and a slight modification to the metal composition ( Molly , Chrome, nickel ????????)
Ratman and I were discussing the whole issue of the block cracking and I have also discussed this with RJ.
In looking at the whole package, a survey that RJ did a while back seems to point the fickle finger of fate at heavy towing as the one commonality that leads to broken main webs.
Last night Ratman and I were going over some of the possibilities and if you look at the overall mounting on the engine, the motor mounts are right in the middle and then the back mount is all the way in the back.
Under heavy use the reaction torque is literally trying to twist that engine into a pretzel.
The idea that the new blocks should have been designed with a deep skirt has been beaten around too.
In talking with RJ he brought up a good point and that is the cost to totally retool to build basically what would be an all new block.
The cost to AMG/GEP would have been big $$$$$$$$$$$ and probably not worth doing.
The situation is this, simple redesigns that can live within the exisitng envelope and not require an all new casting or tooling is whats going on.
As was shown by JIM in those wonderful pictures, a fancy heavy duty girdle to shore up the lower end and most likely a steel crank.
As far as what can be done for the older iron that most of us own????????
RJ and JK have some of the most promising solutions available at this time.
I think that the small steel strap type girdles are not going to do much as they are simply not anchoring things the way they need to be to stop the block from tweeking under torque.
We shall continue this as we get more info on the new parts.
Thanks all for participating
Robyn
TurboDiverArt
05-02-2007, 09:23
Hi All,
I keep hearing that one of the most common reasons given for block failures is heavy towing. Can someone define heavy towing? Is it using the engine to tow all the time? Is it towing when you have a heavy foot and pushing the motor? Is it towing in around town driving (lots of stops and starts) or is it highway towing (long 65MPH pulls)? Is it purely based on overall weight? The reason I ask is this. I use my Suburban daily to get to work and it
More Power
05-02-2007, 10:01
Crankshaft harmonics probably have more to do with failures than anything else. You have first order harmonics, second order harmonics and so on. If your use (gearing, speed - utlimately rpm) of a diesel engine puts the rpm right on top of a harmonic, it could fail sooner - in an engine destined to fail. That failure could manifest itself as either a cracked block, or a broken crank and block...
Crankshaft loading due to the power stroke has much less effect on the crankshaft than the dynamic loading due to centrifugal force at higher rpms. If it takes 300 lb-ft of engine torque to tow a heavy load down the highway, each cylinder is only contributing a fraction of that torque. If engine torque was a major contributor to crank/block failures, it would seem logical to assume the failures would appear near the back half of the crank. In reality, crank failures appear more often at the #1/2 crank throw.
As has been written in the various diesel engine books I have that discuss the engineering principles of engine operation, literally tons of torque (twisting force) can appear momentarily in a crankshaft not properly damped - due to harmonics.
Just about anyone who has driven or towed with a diesel pickup for any length of time can tell you what engine rpm the engine seems happiest. Some of this is due to power and/or torque curves, and some is due to harmonics (or rather a lack of crank harmonics at specific rpms). For example, several years ago a longtime 6.5 owner who drove a 1994 K3500 dually with 4.10 gears and a 4L80-E auto told me 2150 rpm was the sweet spot for towing. Not 2100 or 2200, but 2150...
Jim
PS. I visited the Fluid Damper booth while at SEMA last fall. I talked at length with one of their guys about dampers. I learned that repeated engine & chassis dyno tests have proven a better damper can help produce more engine power/torque at the rear wheels. In their case, a Fluid Damper is said to add as much power/tq to the rear wheels as what a performance exhaust system does. Crankshaft harmonics....
ronniejoe
05-02-2007, 12:18
I don't believe that crankshaft dynamics play much of a role in block breakage, personally. Crank dynamics could be a major contributor to crank failures, but I don't think crank failures, as the primary failed item, are all that common.
My favorite scenario is that the main webs crack from block flexing when worked hard. This allows significantly more bending in the crankshaft than should be there which causes crank failures.
In order to revisit the crack poll data from two years ago, I did some digging. The poll was taken with the old forum software and was a multi-part poll. The new software doesn't seem to recognize that, so the poll results are not viewable. Here's a link to the poll thread so that you can see the comments: http://thedieselpageforums.com/tdpforum/showthread.php?t=5287&highlight=crack+poll
I have the results in PDF form available here: http://www.schoolcraftpowertrain.com/Documents/CrackPoll.pdf
Jim,
When you said "centrifugal force loading" is more than "loading due to the power stroke", I think you miss-understood what was being said. If centrifugal force loading is more than power stroke loading, one would expect connecting rods to get longer over time from the stretching taking place. In reality, data from GM's Electromotive Division, that I had access to when I worked for GM, shows that they get shorter.
I think what you meant to say is that dynamic loading in the crank can be higher than power stroke loading. This is definitely true, especially if the crank isn't supported properly. This is due to operation near modes (or harmonics) which amplify the applied load many times.
More Power
05-02-2007, 13:33
I think it's a bad idea to put a "the 6.5 crank/block will likely break if you tow" idea in the minds of 6.5 owners. There are just too many examples of that not being the case. :)
ronniejoe
05-02-2007, 13:52
I think it's a bad idea to put a "the 6.5 crank/block will likely break if you tow" idea in the minds of 6.5 owners. There are just too many examples of that not being the case. :)
I never said that...
In fact, I think these cranks are really pretty good. Could they be better, probably. I certainly do not think that they are the weak link in the 6.5 engine...as some have indicated.
As for the blocks... Far too large a percantage of the total population has cracked. Mine (a 2000 506 block) did after 158,000 miles. I have a 92 599 block on hand with main web cracks. The data from the poll is what it is.
I think it's a bad idea to tell people that their crank will fail if the crank pulley goes bad. I ran mine for 20,000 miles before I figured out what was making the noise. That crank is still going strong in my new engine right now (and just recently survived a failure of both the flex plate and the torsional damper). We've argued over that in the past, as you recall.
If you look at the poll results, the highest incidence of failure was for trucks with over 100,000 total miles and used to tow. Take it from there.
More Power
05-02-2007, 14:12
I don't sell crank pulleys, dampers or engines..... ;) There's nothing in it for me to push one failure analysis over another. My motivation is to help people succeed in their ownership of these engines.
http://www.thedieselpageforums.com/photopost/data/500/crank1.jpg
Here's a failed crank pulley and a broken crank. A reasonable person would suggest that people should check the condition of the crank pulley ocasionally as a way to "possibly" prevent more engine damage. I've got a couple more photos of bad pulleys that were removed from engines with broken cranks. To my way of thinking, running a pulley with diagonal stress cracks in the rubber is akin to running a tire with an odd bulge. Might be fine for another 50K, or it might not. Why not just change it?
Jim
ronniejoe
05-02-2007, 14:26
That's my motivation. If you want to read something else into it, that's your prerogative; however, it isn't true. My position on this subject hasn't changed since early 2005...long before I ever tried to help people by building better engines. Since my input seems to be "tainted", I won't comment in this thread any more...
john8662
05-02-2007, 15:37
Although this isn't a crank breaking thread... :rolleyes:
I would have to agree that the pictured crank above most likely failed due to the crank pulley being bad.
One would also listen to reason and form the theory that bad pulleys can cause a crankshaft failure.
Look at what journal failed?
Isn't this the common failed journal?
Bad haromincs do cause failures.
nuff said...
J
I am still somewhat concerned about the use of my forged crank (mainly due to harmonics).
Since the natural frequency of the forging is obviously going to be slightly different from the nodular piece, -it kinda makes a person wonder if it will survive in this application.
I'm probably overengineering the whole scenario (make no mistake, -I'm not an engineer, -just a redneck with a few wrenches who makes chips in a machine shop) ;)
In theory, if the thing operates at or near it's resonant frequency at an RPM or power scenario that the engine spends a great deal of time at, the chance of a catostrophic failure will be greatly increased (or nearly guaranteed).
Please keep this going guys, -it's all good food for thought, -and does pertain to the original thread (indirectly).
I'm enjoying reading all of this, -stuff that makes you think is good!
Rich.
More Power
05-02-2007, 16:15
I won!!!:eek: Seriously, RJ, we're all working toward the same goal, and that is to push 6.5 development forward and improve reliability. Your work with engine mods and turbochargers is/will be a boon to the 6.5 enthusiast out there. I'm convinced of that. Everyone wins...
Jim
A simple demonstration
Take a little shoe box and remove the lid.
Turn it upside down and grab one end and then twist the other, what happens???
The box tweeks and elongates diagonally.
Try the same thing with the lid taped on, its stiff and can't move.
The engine block is doing the same thing and the main webs get in the road of the block trying to equalize due to the torque and they breaK.
Once they crack the stress level in the block is less due the fact that now it can move and give with the applied torque.
Unfortunately this flexing also tweeks the crankshaft too.
These engines are a literal piece of taffy and they are moving.
I have seen TH400 trannies behind 454's in duallies crack the bellhousing around from the pan rail at the dip stick up and over the top just ahead of the pump area.
GM installed the steel strut bars and the long rod on the right side that ties the tranny and T case together to help stop this issue.
The 6.5 block simply does not posess the structural integrity to resist the twisitng moment that is being applied during use.
A simple test could be done with a used block with a crank in it.
Fasten the block via the motor mounts and then with a bell housing bolted to the back mount a large handle or bar to the rear oif the bell housing.
Now this engine block needs to be upside down and fastened down to something real solid
Im talking about maybe a 6-8 foot long bar.
Now set up a dial indicator along the pan rail so its mounted to one side and can read on the opposite side.
Set the indicator to "0" and have someone reef on the bar as to try and twist the block.
Im willing to bet this will open some eyes as to what is going on .
I believe the results will be very obvious that the suckers are moving around a bunch.
I have a used block and possibly Rich and I could do a little test.
Sort of like MYTH BUSTERS.
HMMMMMMMMMMMMmm :eek:
I have a used block and possibly Rich and I could do a little test.
Sort of like MYTH BUSTERS.
HMMMMMMMMMMMMmm :eek:
Robyn, -sounds great!
To hold true to the Mythbusters methodology, let's fill all the cooling passages with AMFO and bolt the heads on and let 'er rip. Surely we'll be able to spot the weakest parts in the casting:D
Sorry, -couldn't resist!
I have an obsession with destroying stuff, -just ask my friends.
A simple demonstration
Take a little shoe box and remove the lid.
Turn it upside down and grab one end and then twist the other, what happens???
The box tweeks and elongates diagonally.
Try the same thing with the lid taped on, its stiff and can't move.
The engine block is doing the same thing and the main webs get in the road of the block trying to equalize due to the torque and they breaK.
Once they crack the stress level in the block is less due the fact that now it can move and give with the applied torque.
Unfortunately this flexing also tweeks the crankshaft too.
These engines are a literal piece of taffy and they are moving.
I have seen TH400 trannies behind 454's in duallies crack the bellhousing around from the pan rail at the dip stick up and over the top just ahead of the pump area.
GM installed the steel strut bars and the long rod on the right side that ties the tranny and T case together to help stop this issue.
The 6.5 block simply does not posess the structural integrity to resist the twisitng moment that is being applied during use.
A simple test could be done with a used block with a crank in it.
Fasten the block via the motor mounts and then with a bell housing bolted to the back mount a large handle or bar to the rear oif the bell housing.
Now this engine block needs to be upside down and fastened down to something real solid
Im talking about maybe a 6-8 foot long bar.
Now set up a dial indicator along the pan rail so its mounted to one side and can read on the opposite side.
Set the indicator to "0" and have someone reef on the bar as to try and twist the block.
Im willing to bet this will open some eyes as to what is going on .
I believe the results will be very obvious that the suckers are moving around a bunch.
I have a used block and possibly Rich and I could do a little test.
Sort of like MYTH BUSTERS.
HMMMMMMMMMMMMmm :eek:
Yea bring it on
I bet you wont be able to twist that block , a strait 6 maybe , but not very likely. you will rip the bellhousing apart but you won't twist that block , not even with a 20' snipe, and 10 people hanging on it. It aint a shoebox.
If you can , I stand to be corrected.
BRING IT ON
You might be supprised what 400 Ft Lbs can do.
If we can get even a couple thousands of deflection under very crude test conditions this would be enough to suggest that the theory at least warrants consideration.
Robyn
Well folks, the saga continues with Diesel Direct. Kris at DD has been difficult to reach by phone, -and when I am able to reach him, there always seems to be an excuse why he wasn't able to provide me with a PRO number for my block and crank (that supposedly shipped almost two weeks ago).
I was certain that I had been burned, and even contacted my credit card company the other day (in preparation for action).
I was finally able to get a hold of Kris yesterday (5-10), and get a PRO number for my pallet. I contacted the carrier only to find out that the stuff just left his dock on 5-10-07 (yesterday). The expected delivery date is 5-17 (as reported by the carrier).
Needless to say, I am very disappointed that I was not told the truth from the beginning.
I can only HOPE at this point that when the stuff eventually DOES get here, it will be right. The worst case scenario is that the pallet will have rocks on it. :rolleyes:
I can only imagine the minimal amount of recourse I will have if there's anything wrong with the stuff.
I'm a very tolerant and understanding person, and if I would have been told the truth instead of being lied to, I would have understood. But there are two things I don't take very well, -and that is being lied to or being stolen from, -those two things just FRY me.
It is unfortunate, because even if the stuff turns out to be good stuff, -this guy is still a pain in the neck to deal with. Please take this as a word of warning to ALL here at The Page, use extreme caution when dealing with Kris at Diesel Direct.
Sorry to report bad news, but I don't want anyone else to have to go through what I've had to go through with this outfit.
Rich.
Unfortunately the business world is chocked full of people just like this fellow that will tell you whatever they feel you need to hear.
THE CHECK IS IN THE MAIL :eek: Sure it is :D
I will say this and maybe I just got lucky. The folks over at Clearwater were right on and the stuff was shipped the day they said it would be and arrived at my door when it was supposed to.
I find this issue with this block very interesting.
Why would a company thats selling a supposedly great product (Yet to be seen) be so difficult to deal with.
When a customer of mine calls and want something I ship that sucker just as fast as I can get it boxed and out the door.
A lousy record for service is a quick way to ruin any reputation.
Even if these blocks turn out to absolutely wonderful, folks are going to be very skitish about ordering one if the seller takes his sweet time about shipping and or plays games.
I just wonder if these guys are the sole source for this stuff and possibly did not have it in stock when the promissed it would ship.
I have seen a lot of that crap go on where the sales folks tell the customer anything needed to get the sale then sandbag when the customer calls asking where their stuff is.
Hmmmmmmmmm :eek:
Well Rich I am getting excited to see this hunk of iron.. :D
I do know by all the banter here that there are certainly unfavorable opinions of this stuff even before any of us have seen it so I do hope we can report something good.
I also think we need to do some research and find out a little more about this DD company and if they are the sole source for these blocks.
If they are just an outlet then there might be someone else that has a better work ethic and is willing to take care of business promptly.
later
Robyn
7.4 VORTEC
05-12-2007, 09:12
Besides this guy being a lying #@%hole, he is doing what many businesses that are sub-par do....he takes your money and then orders something he didn't have....waits for it to arrive and then gets around to shipping it, once he pays his deliquent account to the shipping company. With this type of customer service, he is on the typical downward spiral and won't be around in 18 months. Again, if a guy doesn't have pallets of goods sitting that he is actually supposed to be in the business of selling (he's supposed to be a distributor, right?) he probably has crappy credit and his suppliers keep him on COD.
It would be interesting to see what else he sells, call those vendors and do a credit check as if he is trying to open an account with you. This will often tell you what kind of person you're dealing with.
I hope your pallet arrives perfect and that your motor is what it is advertised to be.
Cheers,
George
Vortec
Very good point indeed :D
Robyn
Vortec, -the scenario you presented is very likely the case. He is probably a small-time operation, -which I have nothing against, -in fact, I like giving support to the smaller operations.
Case in point, Robyn and I have been using a machinist way out in the sticks (who is a smalltime operation). I got my rods back from him, -and I have to say that Robyn was right, -this guy takes a lot of pride in his work, and seemed willing to go above and beyond, -and was always there at the phone when I called.
Like I said in one of the previous posts, I am a pretty patient and understanding person, -especially if someone is up front and honest with me. That is how I am with people, -up front. I'm not always the most liked, or the most popular, -but whatcha see is whatcha get, -ya never gotta wonder.
If Kris would have told me up front that he didn't stock the block, -and that he was a small operation doing his best to get established as a good company, I would have even been more inclined to place the order with him and wait the extra time it would have taken.
Since he fed me a line of BS saying he had everything in stock and would ship immediately, -then I find out otherwise, it makes me very upset. Why some people don't understand that it is much easier to "take the hit" up front with people rather than later on down the line is beyond me. Surely he had to wonder if making me wait for two extra weeks wouldn't make me upset and start asking questions.
I do plan on getting a hold of him and asking him why he didn't just tell me the truth up front. I typically wouldn't bother doing such a thing, but during various conversations I had with the guy, he didn't seem like he would ever do anything malicious. I would like to let the guy know that as consumers, we generally like to be told the truth. Doing business and lying to your customers will surely seal your fate, -we all know that, -and he NEEDS to know that as well. In case he hasn't heard of it, I'm going to let him know about this thing called the internet nowadays, and if you don't take care of your customers, word can travel at the speed of a slow typist (me). If it ain't in stock, -TELL ME IT AIN'T IN STOCK, -no problem! One other thing that sugar-coated the whole waiting-game on the block was that my Mahle pistons and Clevite bearings were drop-shipped directly to me from Mahle/Clevite within the first week of me placing the order with Kris, -so it was obvious that he did in fact do SOMETHING, -and the ball was at least "rolling" on my order. And I have to admit, drooling all over those sweeet Mahle trick pistons that I had in my hot little paws was making me forget about the fact that I still didn't have a PRO number for my block and crank, but eventually, I ran out of drool! :eek:
I haven't lost hope yet. Without sounding too much like a (insert expletive here), -I'm glad he ain't the guy that actually MAKES the stuff, -then I'd be extremely nervous right now.
I'm looking forward to building the motor. I really can't wait to see the forged crank, -and inspect it. I'll be able to check it for offset, straightness, and journal diameters, but won't be able to check phase angles.
There still could be a very happy ending to this lengthy story. I sure hope there is a good ending. I gotta tell ya, dealing with all of this has stressed me out, -I'm already exhausted, -and I haven't even began building the motor yet. I sorta feel like a one-legged cat tryin' to bury it's terd on a frozen pond.
Rich.
Rich
I agree 100% about the way this went down. :D
However, (OH BOY HERE IT COMES) rather than confront Kris with the idea that maybe his sales pitch is less than honest, why not do an end run on him and do some snooping around to see what else can be found out about his little company.
We are only seeing one end of a phone conversation here and we have to fill in the blanks.
Being the caustic bunch of wrench monkeys that we are and having been burned more than once in our life we tend to shoot first and ask questions later. :eek:
Why not find out for sure if Kris is the sole distributor for this stuff and if he is just a flunky, maybe we can ferret out the real kingpin and get the business going and sell them suckers out of this area and do it the right way.
I agree that taking care of the little folks is a good thing but the only way folks will trust you is as you said, Be Up Front with them.
"Northwest Diesel Rats" Hmmmmmmm :eek:
I smell oportunity
Cash and carry, bare blocks on a skid or ????? :D
later
Robyn
7.4 VORTEC
05-13-2007, 10:01
Robyn,
I can promise you that if you find the Chinese source, they would be willing to have a "Northwest Distributor", especially if you place a stocking order with them. One downfall the Chinese have is lack of loyalty to their supply chain. Its not that they are back stabbers....its just their culture and style of doing business. If you really wanted the blocks and they had an exclusive agreement with Kris, they would consider changing the color, stamping a label, etc on the block and in their mind it is "different" than the units Kris is selling so its ok to sell them to you. For the next 50 years or so this is the one thing that will never allow the Chinese to take over the world in manufacturing. Its just known by major players that if you want protection, you go to China and sorta become an "investor" in the factory so you can control were the goods are going. For a communist country they are the most capitalistic (and corrupt) I've ever seen. Eventually the old guys will die off and they will change.
If you placed a stocking order of 10 blocks, I'd bet they'd welcome you with open arms. How about this for a business opportunity. Start a company that sells 6.5 blocks, parts, etc. Sell shares in the comany for say $2500.00 each to diesel page members (or whoever else wants to invest). The first 20 investors would also have the rights to purchase a block at a discounted price (or at cost). This would give you the capital for the initial investment, help serious 6.5 lovers and show the manufacturer that you're a much bigger player than Kris.
You would be successful because there are a lot of 6.5's needed for replacements and as many have found....the "cores" are cores for a reason. Nobody sends in a core unless it needed replacement so you're already dealing with a block that has suffered some sort of failure. David Kennedy from Diesel Power Magazine told me he was shocked at how much response his 6.5 (or 6.2) buildup had in his mag. The demand is there, but its dying off since there is no real good supply of "rebuildable block" that isn't a crapshoot.
By the way..What is Kris's comany name and do they have a website? Where are they located. Is this the same as RJ Performance?....I just had never heard of either of them until this subject.
Good Luck,
George
By the way..What is Kris's comany name and do they have a website? Where are they located. Is this the same as RJ Performance?....I just had never heard of either of them until this subject. Good Luck,
George
Company name is Diesel Direct (aka Florida Diesel).
To my knowledge, -not affiliated with RJ Perf
On the web at diesel-direct.com.
-Rich.
Rich, being the caustic bunch of wrench monkeys that we are and having been burned more than once in our life we tend to shoot first and ask questions later. :eek:
I thought that was why we all got along so well? :D
Why not find out for sure if Kris is the sole distributor for this stuff and if he is just a flunky, maybe we can ferret out the real kingpin and get the business going and sell them suckers out of this area and do it the right way.
Your point is taken. With the high demand there is for this stuff, -particularly in our area, there's no shortage of opportunity, that's for sure.
-Rich.
I checked out the web site and they don't list a block, short block, long block or complete for the 6.5 in their catalog. Also, checked their ebay listings: zero.
They must have backed off from selling these blocks after problems getting Ratman's order right. More reason to search for another supplier .:(
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