View Full Version : After market heads
I have been a proponent of the after market cylinder heads as I have used a set on my own rig and have been involved with the use of a few other sets.
All have been fine.
There has now come to light some sad news that there may be some issues with these heads. One the folks here got ahold of a set of castings that seem to be trash and the company does not want to take care of the issue.
What I would like is to hear from anyone who has had anything to do with the heads from clearwater for the 6.5.
Please feel free to tell us about any and all experiences good or bad.
When purchased, how many miles of use ect.
If there seems to be a pattern of poor quaility emerging and or crappy service then I personally want to know it.
My experience with Clearwater was a good one as has been several I know of, buttttttttt things can and do change for many reasons.
Let us know
Robyn
john8662
12-19-2007, 23:10
Looks are one thing too, as we've recently found out. You basically have to take down a sample to examine it and see what you really have, carefully. I'm not convinced that the quality was ever there, just that they hadn't been caught for it much. Alright, I'll quiet down now, cuz I ain't bought no Clearwater Heads. Did have some ACH in my hands at one point, does that count?
And Hey! Your post count is catching me, I was getting all happy about 3k 'n stuff... ;)
John
Any and all pertinent information and discussion is certainly important here.
I have had good luck as have many others. My heads came with a 2 year warranty.
I have emailed clearwater and inquired as to the cost for and the warranty for Bare heads.
I can see that maybe they would be reluctant to warrant a casting that they have no control on the final assembly of.
I am waiting to see what they say. If I dont hear from them in a bit I am going to call them on the phone.
I have recommended their 6.5 heads to a lot of people and I am feeling a little uneasy now about continuing this practice.
The pictures that were posted in the other thread show some fairly shabby looking things that I did not see in my heads.
I pulled many of the valves out of my set and looked things over well visually as well as doing some checks for valve seating with "Blue" ect.
If the stuff is going to turn sour and the company get flakey I am not going to PIMP their stuff any more.
Not to worry, I am serious about getting the skinny on this stuff.
One of our members that lives close by bought a set of these heads and was raving about the quaility??????????
I will be in contact with him ASAP and see if I can look his set over if he has not installed them yet.
I want to hear every success story as well as every nightmare.
I thought I did my homework fairly well before buying these as all the reports I could get from various sources were good ones and the sources were from all over the country.
Nobody had anything negative to say AT ALL.
We shall see. :)
Robyn
Its 8:20 PST, I just got off the phone with the folks at Clearwater cylinder head.
The 6.5 head castings are available as bare machined units.
I asked for all the details about the heads.
I talked with Steve for about 10 minutes.
He was up front and very open about all aspects of their warranty and pricing.
The bare heads come with ZERO warranty due to the lack of control as to how they will be assembled.
Steve also told me that they dont really encourage folks to buy the bare heads as they will not warranty them.
I did not fish for this info, I simply asked for any and all details of their sales and warranty policy.
I represented myself by my own name under my own company.
The complete heads come with a 3 year unlimited mileage warranty.
I asked him what the instance of issues has been, his reply was that they had seen a recent batch that had a few heads that the injectors were tough or impossible to get threaded in.
The issue was rectified and the problem solved I am told.
The manner of conversation was polite and very helpful.
I certainly cant see anything wrong with a 3 year no mileage limit warranty.
That is better than most warranties on parts that you buy out there.
This is a workmanship and materials warranty.
This is the latest info I have gathered.
Best
Robyn
WhiteTruck
12-20-2007, 11:12
This was a friend of mines' experience with CCH this fall. He is a retired tool and die maker by trade, and has had a fair amount of experience rebuilding engines. He did all his own machining before retiring.
(Letter edited for length and personal details.)
New CCH head purchased. (complete) It has under 3000 miles since it was installed. The car is a 1994 Plymouth Sundance, 2.2 non-turbo.
Problem: Number three exhaust valve will not seat properly and the guide is quite sloppy. The valve seat appears to be egg shaped. The other exhaust valves are pitted and also have worn guides. CCH requested head returnd for inspection.
For what it’s worth; I don’t think the oil jet holes in the cam bearing caps are large enough to adequately lubricate the valves. The valve stems and guides are dry and not getting proper lubrication. As you will be able to see there is no wear on the cam or head bearing surfaces so it is getting sufficient oil this far. There are no flats on the cam bearing journals either. I am sending photo copies from the Chrysler manual to help clarify. The original head leaked coolant but the valves and seats were in excellent condition.
I understand problems happen but I’m a little upset, I’m out return shipping, several hours of labor and a set of Fel-Pro gaskets. I appreciate your help with this head and look forward to hearing from you as soon as possible.
The new head came today and I'm not impressed. It's not the same one I sent back. Again no flats on the cam (could be the one I sent back). There's flashing in the water passage where the thermostat sits. Enough that I'm sure it would restrict water flow. The head I sent back said Mexico on it, this one says nothing. Not sure if that's good or bad. I don't think the oil jet holes in the caps are big enough either.
I thought they might send some gaskets but they didn't. I'm not surprised but I was hoping. If this head turns out bad, I don't think there will be a third from CCH. I believe I'd try someone else.
Now I am assuming this little chrysler head was a rebuilt??
The thrust of this post is to glean information on the 6.5 heads that CCH is selling.
The example here is good information but the casting is probably one that was originally built by Mopar.
The issue I am trying to get info on is what sorts of experiences folks have had with the CCH 6.5 (new Heads)
Thanks
Robyn
More Power
12-20-2007, 13:43
I take a little different approach to recommending products than some. I've been at the receiving end of high repair bills and many hours of wrenching in the garage trying to solve diesel problems without mortgaging the farm. In my own work, I wanted the best information and best possible chance of a longterm effective repair. I don't want to do the same job twice, and I'm willing to spend a little more to get a better result. As a result, my recommendations are based on that principle.
So, the best advice is to suggest to people that they buy genuine castings and engine parts authorized and produced by the OEM's. There's just too much risk in suggesting untried and unproven engine parts - from untried and unproven manufacturers. I applaud others here who have taken the time to examine these Chinese castings in detail. What isn't known at this point in time is what alloys were used in the various components. We know Navistar was tasked with solving the cracking problem AMG inherited from GM. I haven't heard from a single individual who has the 2001+ castings and has reported a crack or has reported a manufacturing defect.
The best advice is to stay with OEM parts. JMHO ;)
Jim
john8662
12-20-2007, 14:20
The main point I'd like to make in regard to the after market heads is that they look great, until you put them under the magnifying glass and get down and examine them closely.
Of course any NEW head is going to look a lot better than the used cylinder heads removed from a 6.5.
It's not completely obvious at first that the pre-cups were machined, until looking at them. But they are all done this way, which is even a no-no on reman heads (although a very common practice).
The different material used with the pre-cups is troublesome, which was explained in the picture post about the heads. This is a very important detail, and it was proved, I wouldn't have thought to check that. The depth issue, that's very important as well.
I was considering purchasing a set of Diamond cups bare after market due to price, now I see what the true deal is on them is, not the right stuff. I'll be getting a set from GM, whatever it costs. Not worth the risk for the custom heads I'm building.
J
WhiteTruck
12-20-2007, 17:00
As I stated in my post, the Chrysler head was sold as NEW and complete. I did not indicate whether or not it was an OE or not, but to clarify, he was not sure if it was a Mopar casting. I realize the point of this post is to gain information regarding the 6.5 heads. However, I find it interesting that the 6.5 heads are not the only ones with issues.
My opinion is this.
If its being handled in the aftermarket regardless of if its new or a reman, there will sooner or later be problems with it.
The quality control is just a sorry mess with all but a few outfits.
My hat goes off to those who try hard to do it right.
A big thank you there too.
Robyn
The main point I'd like to make in regard to the after market heads is that they look great, until you put them under the magnifying glass and get down and examine them closely.
Of course any NEW head is going to look a lot better than the used cylinder heads removed from a 6.5.
It's not completely obvious at first that the pre-cups were machined, until looking at them. But they are all done this way, which is even a no-no on reman heads (although a very common practice).
The different material used with the pre-cups is troublesome, which was explained in the picture post about the heads. This is a very important detail, and it was proved, I wouldn't have thought to check that. The depth issue, that's very important as well.
I was considering purchasing a set of Diamond cups bare after market due to price, now I see what the true deal is on them is, not the right stuff. I'll be getting a set from GM, whatever it costs. Not worth the risk for the custom heads I'm building.
J
I just have a couple questions (call me the devil's advocate)...they LOOK inferior and yes the precups ARE a different alloy, but have there been lots of failures? Granted when you went to change the precups you uncovered a machining issue, but would anyone remove the precups before installing the heads normally? If you go looking for trouble you'll always find it. I personally wouldn't go with aftermarket heads. I actually don't use ANY aftermarket parts as they rarely hold up to OEM standards.
I take a little different approach to recommending products than some. I've been at the receiving end of high repair bills and many hours of wrenching in the garage trying to solve diesel problems without mortgaging the farm. In my own work, I wanted the best information and best possible chance of a longterm effective repair. I don't want to do the same job twice, and I'm willing to spend a little more to get a better result. As a result, my recommendations are based on that principle.
So, the best advice is to suggest to people that they buy genuine castings and engine parts authorized and produced by the OEM's. There's just too much risk in suggesting untried and unproven engine parts - from untried and unproven manufacturers. I applaud others here who have taken the time to examine these Chinese castings in detail. What isn't known at this point in time is what alloys were used in the various components. We know Navistar was tasked with solving the cracking problem AMG inherited from GM. I haven't heard from a single individual who has the 2001+ castings and has reported a crack or has reported a manufacturing defect.
The best advice is to stay with OEM parts. JMHO ;)
Jim
Actually, the GM heads aren't as bad as people make them out to be. Cracking is a very common problem on cast iron heads with induction hardened exhaust seats. The hardening process leaves residual stress in the metal, and when combined with high temperatures and being constantly hammered on by the valve a crack can form. On 6.5 heads the crack usually starts on the seat adjacent to the bridge between valves, which is where the seat runs hottest. 6.5 heads aren't alone - it is common to find cracks in gasser heads as well.
During development of the 6.9, International tried using induction hardened exhaust seats. They experienced the same cracking problem that 6.2/6.5 heads experience. They ended up going to seat inserts on the production engines (which were called out in the original design - the induction hardened exhaust seats were tried to cut costs). Obviously induction hardened exhaust seats can be made to work - most that crack aren't noticed until rebuild time. Metallurgy and even cooling around the seat can minimize the possibility of cracks - this seems to be what AMG has done to solve the problem. Cummins used induction hardened seats in the B seriesand others, and they occasionally crack as well.
The best defense are exhaust inserts. However, the cost of the insert and the machining adds quite a bit to the manufacturing cost, so they aren't normally used unless they are really needed...
The main point I'd like to make in regard to the after market heads is that they look great, until you put them under the magnifying glass and get down and examine them closely.
Of course any NEW head is going to look a lot better than the used cylinder heads removed from a 6.5.
The casting quality of these heads is noticeably inferior to the GM castings.
If you want to see a really nice casting go to the EngineQuest heads site and check out their CH318A head for the Chrysler 318/360. It is made in Australia, and having seen one in person I can tell you it is one of the nicest cast iron head castings I have seen. The machining is excellent as well, and they even come with hardened exhaust seat inserts. I wish they made a 6.5 head...
EDIT: that company makes a Vortec-style head for the SBC as well. Nice stuff - check it out: http://www.eqcylinderheads.com/performance.html
I just have a couple questions (call me the devil's advocate)...they LOOK inferior and yes the precups ARE a different alloy, but have there been lots of failures? Granted when you went to change the precups you uncovered a machining issue, but would anyone remove the precups before installing the heads normally? If you go looking for trouble you'll always find it. I personally wouldn't go with aftermarket heads. I actually don't use ANY aftermarket parts as they rarely hold up to OEM standards.
I haven't heard of any failures, but they may not fail catastrophically. If the throat simply eroded many drivers probably wouldn't notice the loss of performance or economy. Furthermore, if they do fail, how long will it take? These heads haven't been out there long enough to rack up a lot of combined hours. Finally, just because you haven't heard of any issues doesn't mean they don't exist. Nobody heard of any quality issues with them until I popped out a precup and found a mess.
To answer your other question, no most folks wouldn't normally pop out a precup. However, I'm not most folks - I am building an engine and I am critical of the parts I bolt onto it. The first thing I noticed was some cast iron chips in the prechambers, and that the precup castings looked a but rough. So, I decided to pop one out. On a properly machined and assembled head you can remove a precup and reinstall it in the same chamber and it will seat perfectly and still be flush with the deck. Not so with these...
Finally, you don't always find trouble when you look for it, but you certainly don't find it if you DON'T look. I would rather find it before it finds me by way of some very expensive engine damage...
john8662
12-20-2007, 21:38
Another log to the fire on cracking, maybe to disprove what Max said above.
Cracking on the cylinder heads is also due to unequal cooling. Upon talking to vendors who work on these heads day in day out, and have taken the time section heads. The majority of the problem areas where they crack is where the material is too thick. The uneven cooling causes an area in which to crack, so making places thicker to combat cracking (the ad campaign by the after market 6.5 head guys) will actually amplify the problem. But, the induction hardening could contribute as well (chewing on this one).
Gotta admit tho, a shiny surface to mount to the block, and nice painted black head do nicer than the 10+ year old 6.5 head a person would have removed. Just trying to figure out why all the Ooohhh and Awwe is about when looking at an aftermarket head. I agree that the casting doesn't look as neat on the after market head. The exact same can be said for the complete Chinese Cylinder block/case I saw pictures of, to me it looked a little too close to amateur workmanship for my tastes.
Another log to the fire on cracking, maybe to disprove what Max said above.
Cracking on the cylinder heads is also due to unequal cooling. Upon talking to vendors who work on these heads day in day out, and have taken the time section heads. The majority of the problem areas where they crack is where the material is too thick. The uneven cooling causes an area in which to crack, so making places thicker to combat cracking (the ad campaign by the after market 6.5 head guys) will actually amplify the problem. But, the induction hardening could contribute as well (chewing on this one).
Gotta admit tho, a shiny surface to mount to the block, and nice painted black head do nicer than the 10+ year old 6.5 head a person would have removed. Just trying to figure out why all the Ooohhh and Awwe is about when looking at an aftermarket head. I agree that the casting doesn't look as neat on the after market head. The exact same can be said for the complete Chinese Cylinder block/case I saw pictures of, to me it looked a little too close to amateur workmanship for my tastes.
Uneven temperature distribution is certainly a contributing cause to crack formation. And you are correct - increasing the material above the seat between the valves will slow the movement of heat from the seat to the coolant causing this area to run even hotter, increasing the odds of crack formation.
There is no single cause to the cracking - it is a combination of several things that lead to the problem. The common denominator is where the crack starts. Many gasser heads are prone to cracking on the induction hardened exhaust seat as well, but exhaust seat inserts practically eliminate the cracking issues.
More Power
12-21-2007, 11:42
Do head castings that use valve seat inserts need to be designed for inserts? I've wondered about the thinning of the valve seat area to allow using inserts, and whether that would present more of an opportunity for cracking. Thinner, 90 degree angles, sharp edges and all.... Just askin.... I don't know...
Jim
Many engines in the truck gasser variety over the years have used hardened seats in the heads and it never seemed to bother them any.
Also many times a head that has had a valve burn and messed up the seat will be repaired with a hard seat insert.
I certainly see where the question would come up as to the sharp corners.
Maybe a quiz of some of the big diesel shops would be in order to see what they do .
Robyn
Ok, the million dollar question.... Should I have my heads repaired or just replace them. Its not for a daily driver or hauler, and yes, money does matter.
I personally would not waste a dime on repairing a 6.5 heads.
If its nothing more than a valve grind and a resurface then thats different, go for it.
Robyn
More Power
12-21-2007, 17:22
Ok, the million dollar question.... Should I have my heads repaired or just replace them. Its not for a daily driver or hauler, and yes, money does matter.
If we're just talking about the hairline cracks between the valves, yes absolutely, I would repair them using the valve guide liner repair procedure published by the AERA for these cyl heads (and illustrated in the Member's Area). In fact, I have done this very thing without a problem... :)
Jim
Do head castings that use valve seat inserts need to be designed for inserts? I've wondered about the thinning of the valve seat area to allow using inserts, and whether that would present more of an opportunity for cracking. Thinner, 90 degree angles, sharp edges and all.... Just askin.... I don't know...
Jim
No, the heads don't have to be designed for inserts. Yes, metal has to be removed from the seat area to install the insert, but this isn't a problem. The problem is with the induction hardened seat. The valve is running red hot and it is sitting on that relatively narrow seat 75% of the time, pouring heat into it (2/3rd's of a valve's heat is transferred to the coolant through the seat). It is this high, uneven (due to the valve bridge) temperature gradient combined with the valve's incessant pounding on the metal that is the problem.
The exhaust inserts are made of a comparatively ductile high-nickel alloy, so they don't crack. They can tolerate the high temperatures and the pounding of the valves, and they spread the heat and stress over a much larger area in the head.
The ONLY reason induction hardened exhaust seats are used is cost. Inserts use expensive materials, require expensive precision grinding to make, and require time consuming close tolerance machining and careful installation in the head.
If we're just talking about the hairline cracks between the valves, yes absolutely, I would repair them using the valve guide liner repair procedure published by the AERA for these cyl heads (and illustrated in the Member's Area). In fact, I have done this very thing without a problem... :)
Jim
What he said ^^^
If you want or need a new head, spend the coin on a set of AMG heads. They will run you $500 each, fully assembled.
Unlike Robyn, I have no qualms about repairing a GM head, but I know the guy doing the repair (cough ME cough).
Shops capable of properly repairing iron heads are hit or miss, with probably more miss than hit :(. Ask how the shop repairs the crack. If they say Lock'n'stitch or pinning, you are probably OK. If they say they weld them, ask what process they use. If they say fusuion welding, and they mention heating the head to 1200 degrees or so, gas welding it with cast iron rod and flux, and letting it cool under sand or other insulation for 24 hours, then they probably know what they are doing. Some shops braze heads, but I would be worried about it's durability on a part that routinely heat cycles since the coefficient of expansion for bronze is much higher than gray iron. Still, I have heard of it being used with success since bronze has good ductility.
If they say they metal spray weld, I would be a bit worried. That process can make excellent, reliable repairs, but it takes a lot of skill to do right. I would probably not risk it.
If they say they arc weld with nickel rod, or any other type of rod, or any other type of electric welding process, walk away. It is possible to make a solid repair with the right filler material, but it takes a lot of knowledge and skill to get it right. Most electric weld repairs fail, and the failure is simply due to improper procedure. There are several procedures to do it right, but you have to strictly play by the rules and you can't be in a hurry. Otherwise you will end up with cracks, or extremely hard areas caused by formation of martensite in the heat-affected zone that will make machining very difficult and be prone to cracking in service.
Anyway, that is my spiel on head repair. FWIW shops that do a lot of (successful) repairs on big diesel heads are going to be the best, but many may not be willing to work on smaller "junk" diesel heads (if the "real" diesels are so reliable and trouble-free, why are they repairing heads, blocks, etc? :rolleyes:).
The last thing to keep in mind about head repairs is that, unless you can do most of the work yourself, it will probably end up costing nearly as much as new AMG heads.
micky_blue
12-21-2007, 21:57
Engine Quest does make a 6.5 head.
http://eqcylinderheads.com/stockreplace.html#stockchevy
its about half way down on the front page. the also sell a 6.5 block
https://parts.aaeq.net/IW_Products.m4p.pvx?;PRODUCTS_NO_TREE?company=AAM
if that link doesn't work you have to go to shop online and click new customer.
micky
I think the water passage repair with the bronze liner is a great fix and probably a good idea even if using heads that have no signs of leaks in the area.
Many times fixing problems before they start is a good idea.
***A note here*** I think the hardened seats are a great way to go if the iron is good in thehead. Another addition if they are available would be sodium filled exhaust valves to really get the heat out of the valve head. This practice has been used for many years on heavy service engine. There are some bad points to sodium filled valves but the issues are rare. (Valve heads snap off)
I am still firm in that I would not spend a plug nickel on any welding type repairs on one of these heads.
Any crack that goes through to water other than as mentioned above would see the head on the bone pile for Sandford and Son around here.
Too much good iron out there to risk the time $$$ and heartache if and when it fails.
I am not a glutton for punishment but would still opt for a fresh head (even the aftermarket ones) over a welded or otherwise repaired head)
******Except for the bronze sleave fix****** :D:):D Good stuff
One failure and slosh a load of glycol into the crankcase and make a mess and OH Sh** Frank, I dont think so.
***If I were faced with what MAX found on his new castings I would replace the precups with a good set (new or used) originals and lightly touch the decks with the surface grinder or the mill and get the puppies put together.****
I personally would feel very good about these and would not lose even one minutes sleep and I am very anal about how I build engines.
Just my 2 cents worth.
Been building engines since I was in High school and had very few failures.
I dont count the race engines that we scattered in the drag boats.
BBC chevies can and do come apart when you take them into the 8-10 grand RPM arena :eek: The last oops was a cam that I did not degree in and the gear was not indexed properly and the engine ran like crap. (My fault for not checking it)
This decision is one that the individual bankrolling the project has to feel warm and fuzzy with.
I will say this, I will never post to anyone that welding on the 6.2/6.5 heads is a good idea.
If you or your fav shop can do a repair and make it stick, Great, I am happy that you got it to fly. :)
I dont trust this stuff simply because I have seen too many failures and I know I am not capable of doing it.
Most mechanics (even those who make their living at it) are not even close to being skilled at doing such repairs.
I dont really think I can add any more pertinent info to this, but am still interested in any sucess or failure of the aftermarket heads/ blocks or any other parts that are being made for these engines.
Good luck to all
I will agree that, in general, welding up a head is a bad idea. Not because it can't be done right, but because it is VERY LIKELY to be done wrong. OTOH, I think a Lock'n'Stitch repair is a good way to go if you must repair the heads.
The only problem I see with the bronze sleeve repair is that, while it may keep water from leaking into the chamber it does not repair the seat. You don't dare put an insert in there for fear that the crack will spread and let the insert come loose, so that leaves you with keeping the integral cracked induction-hardened seat. :( This repair if fine if, say, you notice the crack while replacing a head gasket and you don't plan on doing a valve job. In that case, sleeve 'em and keep on running them ;)
I have considered putting my old cups in the Chinese heads, surfacing them, and running 'em. I'm just so PO''ed with these heads that I have a hard time convincing myself to do it :mad:
Yup
I have seen heads run with cracks in the seats for many K miles with no aparent effect.
I have seen a couple heads that the cracks had widened out and resulted in a burned Valve/seat.
I agree that if the crack allows the head to move then the retention of the hardened seat may me compromised.
These are all very reasonable situations that do and will present them selves to the techincian trying to repair the little beast.
These very situations are one my big reasons for looking at the replacement heads from the aftermarket.
As I have posted, when I needed a set of heads, GM did not have any available that I could find. The open market saw things on ebay but I was not willing to buy "NEW" castings that I could not prove were new or possibly just cleaned and fluffed up.
I have bought off ebay and had very good luck.
Only had one guy try to scam me but caught it in time and used paypal to pay for it and got my $$$ back.
MAX
I dont blame you for being a bit giddy about things. With the cost of a build and all the work, one hates to find out after the fact that the parts were junk or worse yet have it grenade on you.
After seeing the piles of Military stuff that had been removed from HMMWV's and being sold I really cant say much about any of the stuff thats used out there.
I went through a huge warehouse of blocks heads and cranks that had come from the military and after an hour of looking stuff over for usable parts I got tired and went home. Too much scrap iron to look through.
This was the largest amount of 6.2/6.5 parts I have ever seen in one place.
The private sector is even worse as the bone yards always sell the stuff as being good. Then just try to get them to adjust things if its junk.
For my dollars the new ready to bolt on head sure seemed and still does seem like a pretty good bang for the $$$$$
GM only offers 1 year on their replacement parts.
As I said, whoever is bankrolling the particular job has to make the decision and be happy with it.
If asked right here and right now, I would recommend as set of CCH heads over any of the remans out there.
One exception would be a set of heads that I had owned and had magged them myself and then done the machine work to do the valves and seats and decked them.
There is just too much junk iron out there that has been warmed over and sold to unsuspecting buyers.
Most folks would not spot any issues until the engine was fired up and then ultimately failed.
At this point I think we have aired almost all good arguements pro and con on the different ways to proceed.
Robyn
97-6.5TD-F
12-26-2007, 01:11
I bought a pair of DSG's new heads last june as my existing had a couple cracks in between the valves.
I splurged on the fully assembled units and they looked fantastic! Nice, clean castings, that now have 30k. So far so good! I am not sure if they cast them or if they farm out the foundry work, but the price was'nt bad, 400 a piece. Cant recall what kind of warranty though.
i have an engine quest heads on the 318 i have they are an excllent casting
The casting quality of these heads is noticeably inferior to the GM castings.
If you want to see a really nice casting go to the EngineQuest heads site and check out their CH318A head for the Chrysler 318/360. It is made in Australia, and having seen one in person I can tell you it is one of the nicest cast iron head castings I have seen. The machining is excellent as well, and they even come with hardened exhaust seat inserts. I wish they made a 6.5 head...
EDIT: that company makes a Vortec-style head for the SBC as well. Nice stuff - check it out: http://www.eqcylinderheads.com/performance.html
Well, my current plan is to stuff my slightly cracked 3-dot precups in the CCH heads, deck them, touch up the seats, and put them together.
I think I have been fair about my assessment of these heads. The cup material is inferior IMO, and the cups weren't machined for a proper fit. The casting is a bit rough as well. OTOH, there are no gross flaws in the casting, and the seat machining appears to be quite good. I threw an intake gasket on them today, and the ports actually match up as good as the GM heads. Also, closer inspection revealed that there IS more metal in the deck area. I still need to measure the guide clearance, but judging by the fit of the valve stems I think they are fine.
Make no mistake, I am still p****d off that I have to spend another couple hundred dollars to make these right, but I think they should give good service. We shall see...
One other thing. I had bead blasted my 3-dot cups and I was inspecting them when I noticed a cast-in circle on the side that had "N 80" cast into it. One material commonly used to make precombustion chambers is an alloy called "Nimonic 80", which is an alloy that is approx. 80% nickel, 20% chromium, with a small amount of titanium and aluminum. I wonder if the "N 80" means it is made from Nimonic 80... :confused:
I have not heard of the N80 but I did cruise through the heads that I have in the shop and all but one had none magnetic precups.
I am not sure of the origin of the one head that has magnetic precups but it came off of a running engine and it has GM cast into it in the top??????????????
Kepp us posted on the project
Robyn
Just wanted to voice my opinion and then I'm out of here.
If you buy the cheap Chinese knockoffs you deserve the consequences and yes I am quite certain that there will be...
I have not heard of the N80 but I did cruise through the heads that I have in the shop and all but one had none magnetic precups.
I am not sure of the origin of the one head that has magnetic precups but it came off of a running engine and it has GM cast into it in the top??????????????
Kepp us posted on the project
Robyn
I perused some of the GM technical books we have at work, and I found something interesting. According to the GM book I read the J-code 6.2's and all 6.5's have precups made from "super alloy", which is of course what the high-nickel, high-temp alloys are called. However, it said that C-code 6.2's used precups made from gray iron... I wonder if that is what the aftermarket cups are made of...
Just wanted to voice my opinion and then I'm out of here.
If you buy the cheap Chinese knockoffs you deserve the consequences and yes I am quite certain that there will be...
Do tell... what consequences would you be speaking of?
I hate to disagree here but there does not HAVE to be consequences.
The stuff that came from GM had consequences by the metric buttload.
One of our members bought a block from the Fritolay garage and there head mechanic has been using the CCH heads on the little delivery vans for a long time. To date he says they have had zero failures.
**** I earlier quoted this as Fedex,, Nope Fritolay ******
According to him the least time on any set of heads they have is 3 years and you know those little trucks get the crap run out of them and its all tough town stop and go driving with all sorts of different drivers running them.
If Frito will gamble on these then its a good bet that its cost effective.
Large fleet operators generally dont fool around. They cant afford to have trucks down all the time and if they are seeing failure after failure they will be doing something different and soon.
I hate seeing the Chinese stuff as much as the rest of you but I am not going to subscribe to a broad statement that because its made there that there will be consequences.
Just my 2 cents worth, Again :)
Nothing personal John, just how I see it.
GM has done us no favors so there is no love lost there.
Robyn
More Power
12-28-2007, 12:18
Do those vendors selling Chinese heads say they are not AMG heads in their ads, or would the average buyer assume they are AMG heads based on the wording in those ads? :rolleyes:
As long as the ads include all relavent info, then it is really about what the consumer wants. Do the Chinese heads or blocks contain a Navistar logo?
Jim
My experience with CCH has been a good one.
They were honest about the fact that the castings are from overseas.
There is no reference to GM/AMG/GEP anywhere in their ads.
The heads and blocks do NOT have any references to GM/GEP/AMG or Navistar on them.
The heads have a casrting number but no other logos or markings.
I can honestly say that when I bought these that I was totally aware of what I was buying, BUTTTTTTTT I ask questions and plenty of them.
The CCH sales page just lists the 6.5 heads with a number and what it fits.
They offer a reman head and then the other ones (new)
There is absolutely nothing to suggest either way as to what it is.
When one orders a 6.5 head from them you basically have to ask the service rep about the 6.5 heads and then it goes from there.
When I oirdered my set, I sked them to tell me about the new castings and the pacakge deal.
The rep explained that the castings were from off shore and that many of the other parts were reconditioned items or new depending on what they had at the time.
My heads had all new exhaust valves and the intakes were some of each.
The keepers apeared to be all new.
There was never a hit at trying to cover up anything. When I asked a question I got an answer right up front and no Hum Hawing.
They said who what where when and why.
Now I will agree that in due time when the market place is full of these there is going to be only one way to tell these from GM heads and that is going to be the fact that these heads do not have a GM cast into the head under the rocker shaft stands.
To settle a point, there seemed to be no effort to pass these off as GM/GEP or AMG stuff, none at all.
Just what I know from dealing with the outfit.
They are also very upfront with their warranty policy too.
Buy a complete head and it gets a 3 year unlimited mileage warranty for materials and workmanship.
My set cost me $670 to the door with a sticker to place on the boxes to ship my old units back at no cost to me.
They were boxed well with plenty of padding and sprayed with a no rust compound too.
I am still of the opinion that this is not a bad way to go.
I have asked for and do encourage anyone who has RUN a set of these on their 6.5 to chime in, with Pro or con comments.
If someone has an honest bitch about this product (as in it failed) please let us know here.
Speculation as to what MIGHT happen does not count. If they work and last thats great. If someone can say, Hey I bought a set and they failed at 50K miles in 2 years, then we need to know this.
With the Frito trucks using these I am betting they are not a bad jump for the BUCK
Best
Robyn
More Power
12-28-2007, 16:02
Would someone who doesn't read the forums assume CCH's 6.5 heads are aftermarket by what their online ads say? If not, their ads should say what they are so anyone buying their "6.5 heads" can make an informed decision. ;)
I just received a new Summit catalog a few days ago. Inside, is a big selection of aftermarket cylinder heads for all manner of gas engines. All of the individual listings are clearly worded to let the buyer know exactly who manufacturers them. That's how it should be done.
Jim
Just as an item to promote thought.
This afternoon I spoke with sales rep from the local Cummins outlet.
I asked him where the blocks for the different Cummins engines were cast.
The answer was "Cummins has plants world wide including China and Brazil that may supply materials for various engine assembly plants here in the States"
Take this however you like. I will bet that some of the Dodge pickups are running around with blocks that are cast in China.
I am not offering this as any excuse or justification of anything.
There are far too many outfits that have spent big $$$ setting up plants overseas so there does exist the possibility that many of these foundaries can handle far more work than they have to do and very well may be the source of the 6.5 blocks that are showing up.
Under the circumstances anyone with the $$$ could contract to have almost anything cast over there and shipped to the States to be machined in their own facility.
Just some speculation. If cummins has a plant there bet me that a whole lot of companies do too.
later
Robyn
More Power
12-28-2007, 16:17
If AMG/GEP had a plant in China that produced 6.5 heads/blocks, I doubt you'd be hearing the negative about the parts...... :)
Jim
So far the only real negative talk about this stuff is assumed problems and really nothing much to any great degree has surfaced.
I really would like someone to come and tell me a truely honest horror story about this stuff.
We have one member here that has found some minor issues but nothing that is curling my hair.
The biggest complaint so far seems to be, well "WHAT IF IT BREAKS"
So Far we have not heard one horror story, not that it cant happen, I just want to hear one before I condemn the product is all. :)
And as far a AMG/GEP having a plant over there. IF they did and word got out the trash would be called down by the bucket load me thinks and the dark clouds of condemnation would be a gathering on the horizon.
The stigma that if it comes from China is that it cant be any good.
Be aware I am playing both sides of the fence here. I hate seeing jobs going over seas as much as anyone else.
I also dont like seeing parts that are out of reach price wise for us poor folks.
I still think (althoughI can't prove it) that some good O'l boys here in the states are behind this whole thing and are cutting a fat hog.
Rich (RAT MAN) bought a set of these heads after considering his options.
We talked the other night to great length about these heads and he is totally happy with what came out of the box.
I would still like to hear from someone that can give us a real good writeup as to the faults and post some pictures of a Chinese cast head that has failed while in use.
If I see a good writeup of a head/heads from CCH that have failed due to workmanship or material defects I will be quite satisfied that maybe there is an issue here.
Until this happens I am still not going to throw too much trash their way.
best to all
Robyn
My biggest problem with Chinese stuff is that China is NOT a friend of the US. They peg their currency to ours, their trade policy is very one-sided, and they are using our dollars to fund the largest military in the world. Thus, I hate spending money on goods made there. I do think they can turn out quality stuff, especially something as low-tech as cast iron parts. I would simply prefer that my money stay here, or at the very least goes into the economy of a friendly nation.
For the most part, I try not to buy stuff that originates in China. However, I will acknowledge that there are times when one has little choice. Try buying a PC that isn't made, at least in part, in China. Same thing for most other consumer electronics. If I have a choice I will usually buy the non-Chinese item despite the higher price of the non-Chinese item. There are limits though - when I compare a $30 Chinese brake rotor to a $50 Canadian rotor, I will spend the extra $20 every time. However, when it comes down to the difference between $500 and $1100, well, $600 is a a good chunk of change to most of us.
In retrospect they weren't a great bargain, but even considering the money I will have to spend to have them resurfaced after I install the GM precups they are still going to be much less expensive than the next cheapest alternative, and far less than a set of AMG heads.
On the subject of the integrity of the Chinese castings I can say this: my machinist, who does mostly gasser stuff, has had plenty of customers use the Chinese Vortec-clone head on SBC's. They are coated with the same black paint as the 6.5 heads are, so I wonder if they originate from the same foundry. Anyway, he acknowledges that the casting isn't as nice and pretty as the GM head, and the machining can be rough on some of them. However, he also stated that he has never seen one crack, while the GM Vortec heads commonly crack in service. Hopefully these 6.5 heads hold up as well. We shall see...
redbird2
12-29-2007, 07:57
I have been using CCH for at least 4 years now one set is 5 years old was the test set we used that truck was still running strong when I sold the truck 2 months ago.
Robyn spoke of Frito Lay using these that is correct I was involved in the decision to try these heads and I was also the person that installed the first set we used in are area.
The truck we installed them on had 126k on it it had broken a belt and the driver drove it 15 miles or more on interstate and cooked the engine he only noticed there was a problem when he went to get on the ramp no power steering and then noticed temp was pegged when he stopped then the steam came out. I had reinstalled the belt and refilled with coolant the truck drank coolant driver called after 5 days told me he used 6 gallon of coolant in 5days. after test found what I figured was blowing head gasket (hope that was all) pull heads found bad head gasket, then flipped the heads over and the cracks in the heads looked like spider webs. You could easily tell these heads where trashed, I was out of stock on new GM/GEP heads.
I had seen an add for CCH so after calling them asking all the same question Robyn had asked and some finical question regarding there company, myself and 6 or 7 other company people had a conference call talked over the pro and cons and them being made in china did come up we decided to try a set on this truck as it would cost us less for 2 heads then one from GM and we where not sure if this engine was going to last along time anyway. So I ordered a set of heads they overnighted them to me at no extra charge (good sales tactic to get my large fleet business) was very impressed with what they sent me. Installed them truck never missed a beat the rest of its life, its even lost the belt again when alt locked up at 188K miles different drive he noticed only got to 260 that time replaced alternator new belt topped off coolant ran until 224K when I sold it.
Side note we have a buyer that is buying a large majority of are 6.5 powered trucks and pulling the engines and shipping container after container to Australia they want the engines.
I can not give you a total number of head we have purchased however I will tell you we buy them 8 sets at a time, I have seen a drastic drop in failed heads as most of are old gm engines are about gone and now the majority are a GEP produces engines
Robyn asked if anyone has ever had a failure to speak up. I can tell you I have NEVER had a single failure to date of heads from CCH.
I do not like buying made in China items however it all comes down to the all might dollar if I can buy US for few dollars more I will if it several hundred to thousand more I keeping my green backs.
Here is something to think about I have a friend in the scrap business I asked him few years back why scrap prices have soared ( I'm not complaining) the Chinese are buying everything they can get there hands on on world market driving the price. He went on to tell me that there is only a 2 or 3 day scrap supply on the world markets for certain types of metals mostly going to china.
Who do we have to thank for the loss of US jobs to foreign out sourcing the EPA they have made the regulation to cost prohibitive for are US companies to build new foundries.
Ok I'm done ranting now sorry
Thank you for this input.
I agree 100% about the outsourcing and keeping the $$$ in our pocket.
As long as our companies are strangled by overpowering EPA regs they are going to go where they can operate at a good profit.
I am still wanting to hear a nasty, sad and ugly story about a set of these heads.
Please someone share more info on this stuff.
Maybe someone has a story good or bad on the new blocks too.
Rat man got his new one after it had been through a truck wreck and was torn up during shipping and he sent it back.
More please.
Best to all and thanks to all who have offered input.
Robyn
More Power
12-29-2007, 20:55
I just visited the CCH web site, and saw that they list the manufacturer (http://www.cylinder-heads.com/details.cfm?itemid=1598) of both their 6.5 reman and new heads as "GM". :eek:
Like I've said before, people can spend their money how they wish, but I think they should know where the parts come from.
Jim
Jim I THINK? that "Mfg: GM" is the vehicle mfg, "model: TRUCK" etc (not the actual part mfg). Yeah part number is little misleading as well GM825 though? But at least they are not using the AC Delco or GM part number and adding a useless 9 to the tail of the number or other "trick". I agree actual part mfg and country of origin should be divulged. I think they probably have some liberty as it could be assembled here in the US or other loop hole.
Robyn you can bet the barn USA corporations are setting up plants in China and being quiet about it.
Sorry not a specific 6.5 head/block story but I use to work for a tool mfg that sold a fair bit of tooling shipping to China. Some through big USA tooling, machine, and line builders. One job was for a big diesel engine mfg and they were adamant about keeping thier name clean of "made in China" to the point of making all new blue prints with a fake or subsidiary company name in the title block for mfg part prints sent out for tooling quotes and orders. And IF the engine company's name was mentioned, leaked, or other in writing then the machine builder would be fined according to contract (never learned who it was). As typical start ups go several big orders for replacement tools were made until bugs and learing curve was up. Also as time went on yes I am sure they copied tools and out sourced to other tooling vendors (some of which is just typical tooling business).
More Power
12-31-2007, 12:54
Everything on the ad page linked above would lead people to assume CCH sells GM manufacturered 6.5L cylinder heads. It's misleading (trying to be polite)....
It would be far better to say: "Aftermarket cylinder heads for the GM 6.5L diesel engine". ;)
Jim
OK I give.
The ad is written in such a way that if one assumes they are GM heads then I guess it could be taken that way. I read it as being the model of vehicle and engine they fit and not who made the parts.
I asked right up front what they were and was told that they are overseas castings with MOSTLY US made valves springs and such that are RECON (USED)
CCH is right up front about it when asked, never so much as a stutter.
Robyn
Yukon6.2
01-01-2008, 11:50
Hi all
Robyn i'v had an idea floating around in my head for a while,lots of room for them,rarely do the hit anything important;)
Anyhow my question to you seeing how you have talked with CCH a fair bit is, Do they get raw castings and machine them inhouse? If not do they have thier own spec's that the castings get machined too?
Happy New Year
Thomas
Cant give you a 100% answer on that one. Sales says they do the machining and the installation of all components in house.
Now do they machine the deck and the valve seats ect. I dont know.
The way it was put to me It could be either way.
The set of heads I got had very good machine work on them. The guides were great as were the valve seats. Concentricity of the seat to the guide was very good. Stem to guide clearance was fine too.
The set I have had perfect machining on the decks and manifold surfaces.
The only issue I had was the threads for the Glowplugs.
I had to run a tap through them before the plugs would screw in the way I wanted them to.
I would check all threads that go into critical areas before ever installing any head due to the possibilities of having to yank one back off and losing a set of bolts plus the gasket.
All in all great machining on these.
I am thinking due to the comments that some have made about some rather shoddy looks to some heads that the castings may be coming in bare and unfinished and the finish work is being done here.
I would never buy a bare casting as the assembled ones come with the warranty and the bare ones dont.
Hope this helps
Robyn
moondoggie
01-02-2008, 12:04
Good Day!
I tend to agree that suppliers should be very clear about where their parts come from, or at least that they weren't made by the OEM. On the other hand, if I don't buy the part from a GM (or any OEM for that matter) outlet, I ASSUME that parts are NOT from the OEM - when I buy a lift pump from NAPA, I assume it was NOT made by GM, & would quite frankly be surprised if it had been.
Blessings!
More Power
01-02-2008, 12:16
I don't know how many are aware of this, but at least one of our longtime advertising vendors sell what I assume are the Chinese 6.5 heads. www.dieselservices.com (http://www.dieselservices.com/)
They advertise the lowest cost in North America for new bare or dressed 6.5 cylinder heads. Their ad says:
"DSG offers brand new Diesel Pro cylinder heads for all GM 6.5L pickup applications."
http://www.dieselservices.com/html/g..._bare_p421.cfm (http://www.dieselservices.com/html/gm_diesel/6_5_Turbo_Diesel/gm-diesel-special/65l_cylinder_heads__bare_p421.cfm)
Notice, they don't say "MFG: GM". Diesel Services put their own name on them... ;)
Jim
CLEARWATER CYLINDER HEAD INC IS SELLING THIS NEW 6.5 GM DIESEL CYLINDER HEAD. THIS HEAD IS COMPLETE WITH VALVES AND SPRINGS. THIS HEAD IS CASTING #567 AND COMES WITH A 2 YR UNLIMITED MILEAGE WARRANTY. THIS IS A AFTERMARKET CASTING AND IS MUCH THICKER AND STRONGER IN ALL THE CRITICAL AREAS THEN THE FACTORY HEAD.
The above is a quote from there ebay listing. Seem to me they are 100% honest in letting the you know it is aftermarket.
I think I will try a set. Good price. Good warranty. redbird2 gives a good testimony of the product.
While we are on the issue of heads, how about gaskets? Anyone try Cometic gaskets(MLS) for the 6.5? Price is about $100 a side. They also make ones for the duramax.
arveetek
01-03-2008, 10:39
I don't know how many are aware of this, but at least one of our longtime advertising vendors sell what I assume are the Chinese 6.5 heads. www.dieselservices.com (http://www.dieselservices.com/)
They advertise the lowest cost in North America for new bare or dressed 6.5 cylinder heads. Their ad says:
"DSG offers brand new Diesel Pro cylinder heads for all GM 6.5L pickup applications."
http://www.dieselservices.com/html/g..._bare_p421.cfm (http://www.dieselservices.com/html/gm_diesel/6_5_Turbo_Diesel/gm-diesel-special/65l_cylinder_heads__bare_p421.cfm)
Notice, they don't say "MFG: GM". Diesel Services put their own name on them... ;)
Jim
I contacted DSG to find out some more info on their heads and blocks. They offer two kinds of heads: remanufactured and new. The reman heads are genuine GM heads with all new hardware and liners in the coolant passages between the valves. The new heads, both bare and fully loaded, are "offshore" aftermarket heads.
They advertise a "new" 6.5L engine that they call the "Titan". They told me that this is the new AMG block and heads, with their goodies added onto it, such as the gear drive and stud girdle.
Casey
More Power
01-03-2008, 11:36
CLEARWATER CYLINDER HEAD INC IS SELLING THIS NEW 6.5 GM DIESEL CYLINDER HEAD. THIS HEAD IS COMPLETE WITH VALVES AND SPRINGS. THIS HEAD IS CASTING #567 AND COMES WITH A 2 YR UNLIMITED MILEAGE WARRANTY. THIS IS A AFTERMARKET CASTING AND IS MUCH THICKER AND STRONGER IN ALL THE CRITICAL AREAS THEN THE FACTORY HEAD.
The above is a quote from there ebay listing. Seem to me they are 100% honest in letting the you know it is aftermarket.
The eBay ad just means that vendors respect eBay's truth in advertising requirements - as well as buyer feedback. Why don't they say the same thing on their own web site? All they would have to do is change "MFG: GM" to "MFG: Aftermarket".;)
Jim
While we are on the issue of heads, how about gaskets? Anyone try Cometic gaskets(MLS) for the 6.5? Price is about $100 a side. They also make ones for the duramax.
I don't know of anyone who has. Quite a few of the Cummins guys have tried them, but they say they won't hold more than 60-70psi :D
Seriously, if all you need is a replacement for a stock thickness gasket or a .010" thicker gasket the Fel-Pro's seem to hold up fine. The nice thing about the Cometics is that you can get them much thicker than stock. A pair of .074" thick Cometics on a 21.3:1 engine should give you approximately 18:1 compression. It's a heck of a lot cheaper than a set of pistons ;) Assuming they hold up...
One thing to remember about Cometic gaskets is that they specify a finish of 50RA or better for their gaskets, which is a fairly smooth finish. Also, they don't have as much conformability as the Fel-Pro's or other stock-type gaskets, so the surfaces need to be quite flat. Just something to keep in mind...
Just a note here.
Although I have used CCH heads and still believe that they are a good choice for a rebuild when the big $$$$$ is an issue, the point of declaring the Mfg is a good point.
Jim has pointed out that DSG makes it clear that their heads are not OEM in origin and this is a good point.
DSG is also a supporting vendor of TDP and this is a good thing. :)
Supporting these vendors is also a very good thing. :D
I have emailed CCH and asked them about making a disclosure on their web site/ catalogue and as yet have not received an answer.
I may call them and speak with the manager and see if they are willing to make this adjustment.
Personally I still think that any time you buy a part that does not slide across the counter at the MA GENERAL store that it should be considered an aftermarket part and its up to you to ask questions if you feel the need to know more information.
I really would like to know what the origin of the aftermarket head and block castings is as far as who is behind them and actually is pulling the strings.
Seems to be a lot of companies selling replacement heads now and there can't be that many different outfits making the castings.
Best to all
Robyn
Just a note here.
Although I have used CCH heads and still believe that they are a good choice for a rebuild when the big $$$$$ is an issue, the point of declaring the Mfg is a good point.
Jim has pointed out that DSG makes it clear that their heads are not OEM in origin and this is a good point.
DSG is also a supporting vendor of TDP and this is a good thing. :)
Supporting these vendors is also a very good thing. :D
I have emailed CCH and asked them about making a disclosure on their web site/ catalogue and as yet have not received an answer.
I may call them and speak with the manager and see if they are willing to make this adjustment.
Personally I still think that any time you buy a part that does not slide across the counter at the MA GENERAL store that it should be considered an aftermarket part and its up to you to ask questions if you feel the need to know more information.
I really would like to know what the origin of the aftermarket head and block castings is as far as who is behind them and actually is pulling the strings.
Seems to be a lot of companies selling replacement heads now and there can't be that many different outfits making the castings.
Best to all
Robyn
OOOOOOOOOOOOOKKKKKKK
I just got off the phone with CCH
Talked with Bob about where their new 6.5 head castings are coming from.
The answer was "Australia". Hmmmm I asked him if that the supplier in Australia was a middleman on the way from China?
He said "I dont think so, BUTT it could be"
I asked him about placing a disclosure on their web site as to the Mfg.
He said he would do so, WE SHALL SEE.
I will keep an eye on their site and see how long it takes if it even happens.
Im sure that if their business is brisk that this is not going to be a real priority item.
Just so you know that I did follow up on this.
Robyn
john8662
01-05-2008, 15:22
Word on the street is that DSG did try a few of the copy blocks or "AMG Style" blocks in the beginning. It was told that there were issues with the blocks. The block had numerous issues with machining specifications, they had to check everything on each block, only to find issues. A few engines made it into service, some have run well, a few came back with extremely low oil pressure problems. The engines were taken apart and the normal causes were narrowed out of the investigation. The issue was likely a oil passage issue in the casting.
They are currently using AMG shortblocks now.
J
Robyn hit it on the head.........
DSG is also a supporting vendor of TDP and this is a good thing.
Supporting these vendors is also a very good thing.
Follow the money. DSG pays so they must be great & CCH must be trash because they aren't a supporting vendor.
This trashing of CCH beacause of how they advertise there heads reminds me of someone who sold glow plugs. No name on them(removed name from package). But he is a supporting vendor so it didnt matter.
You should base your descision to buy from CCH because of the product & price, not because of where they advertise.
Jim Faire
01-05-2008, 19:37
Robyn hit it on the head.........
DSG is also a supporting vendor of TDP and this is a good thing.
Supporting these vendors is also a very good thing.
So far, so good.
Follow the money. DSG pays so they must be great & CCH must be trash because they aren't a supporting vendor.
Uh-oh... mom, I'm getting scared.
This trashing of CCH beacause of how they advertise there heads reminds me of someone who sold glow plugs. No name on them(removed name from package). But he is a supporting vendor so it didnt matter.
You should base your descision to buy from CCH because of the product & price, not because of where they advertise.
The best reason to belong to one of these forums is to get the real facts, not the sales propaganda, from people who actually use the stuff. We debate, we argue, and usually, the truth bubbles to the surface. If we can't be honest in those debates, we just joined the Banana Republics.
Tell me it ain't so...
The comments about the AMG-style blocks are bery pertinent... lots of vendors are advertising AMG-style blocks, when (as far as I've been able to determine), AMG is only verified as selling to GM, penninsular, Kennedy, and Uncle Sam. A lot of these 'AMG-style' blocks are in fact offshore castings. They LOOK nice, but they're not really AMG.
For the price of parts, I think we can at least demand honesty, site vendor or not. Personally, I expect a higher standard from site vendors, and I'm most often rewarded. That's why I order from them.
But my past experience with RJ in Calgary with 'AMG-Style' blocks has made me wary, and this DSG thing doesn't reassure me, as DSG (Red Deer) was going to be my next choice.
This RJ-performance block:
http://www.dieselenginemotor.com/diesel/engines/image/629.html
used to get advertised as 'AMG-Style'... looks good, no? But it ain't AMG.
Forums are great places to get:
- Opinions from people who use the stuff
- information from people who have looked in places I haven't
- ideas about things best not overlooked
If forums are only for indiscriminate advertising, then I was wrong to bash Steaksauce for a year. That was HIS claim, and I never believed it.
Tell me it ain't so.
More Power
01-05-2008, 19:49
Robyn hit it on the head.........
DSG is also a supporting vendor of TDP and this is a good thing.
Supporting these vendors is also a very good thing.
Follow the money. DSG pays so they must be great & CCH must be trash because they aren't a supporting vendor.
This trashing of CCH beacause of how they advertise there heads reminds me of someone who sold glow plugs. No name on them(removed name from package). But he is a supporting vendor so it didnt matter.
You should base your descision to buy from CCH because of the product & price, not because of where they advertise.
If you believe I would not recommend the best vendor regardless of whether they advertise, you don't know me very well.
If any TDP advertiser is selling anything that isn't exactly what it is advertised to be or is not satisfying its customers, I want to know about it. I'll help them see the light or they won't advertise here. Just so you know, there are a few vendors who are not advertising here (they were turned away) because they don't/can't fullfill the above.
There's a lot more money in selling gizmos. If I were doing this for the money.... I'd be selling everything known to exist for these engines. This web site does not need a single advertiser.
Jim
Jim Faire
01-05-2008, 20:11
If you believe I would not recommend the best vendor regardless of whether they advertise, you don't know me very well.
If any TDP advertiser is selling anything that isn't exactly what it is advertised to be or is not satisfying its customers, I want to know about it. I'll help them see the light or they won't advertise here.
Jim
Okay, I'll buy that. I'm not doubting your integrity.
What I can't figure out was the response to Chrisk1500 (above). DSGs website says "Hummer-style" block. Like RJs website used to say "Optimax". Like Diesel-Direct produced 'AMG-style' blocks right from the boat docks.
In all these cases, one is left to draw the inference that the block is produced by AMG, and in at least two cases, that was proven to be a mistaken assumption.
Note that none of them are "selling anything that isn't exactly what it is advertised to be" (your words, not mine), but the buyer is, I believe, led to assume the block is AMG.
It seems to me that if it really WAS an AMG block, they would be proudly trumpeting that fact for all to hear. John does. So does Penninsular. To their benefit.
Missy is chasing after the same assurances from CCH. Just tell the truth, people.
Chinese-made blocks may indeed be just fine, don't get me wrong. All I want is clarity... if they ARE genuine AMG castings, then make that clear. If they're Hong-bo Engine Works castings, make that clear.
Let the buyers decide on their own. Open discussion greatly accelerates that process, and is perhaps the best incentive for site vendors to remain honest in theri claims... that honesty buys them a large volume of committed customers; dishonesty produces equally committed customers, if ya know what I mean.
john8662
01-05-2008, 20:32
If they're Hong-bo Engine Works
That's a good one, meaining, I found it funny! :D
The AMG-Style product is just because they mean that it's a copy of the block that AMG started producing after GM quit production.
Can this be mis-leading? Uh huh!
Hung-Bo Engine Foundary, copyin' heads n' blocks all day long...
Well now
Hmmmm we seem to agree to disagree in some instances.
My view is still, that its a great idea to support vendors that support this board.
This board and all that it entails is in and of itself a commercial venture.
This is a GREAT thing.
The help and service that this board has provided so many people over the years its been here is nothing short of a miracle.
All I can say for sure is that I have nothing bad to say about the service and product I got from CCH.
The practice of skewed advertising is pretty much a standard practice anymore.
A phrase using the word "Like" when describing a product is a dead giveaway that its not the real deal.
In my business I use the Wording AR-15 "TYPE" carbine. I dont want to get sued by Colt for using a copyrighted name.
My Model is a CM 1500
The product is called the 502 ThunderSabre. Its a 50 caliber carbine. The 502 is a trade name. ThunderSabre is a trade name.
The ATF requires that the thing have a model number, unique serial number (group) and the name and place of the Mfg.
As far as these engines and parts go, the govnt is not there making every tom dick and harry put their name on it.
Still though trade names are protected.
AMG cant stop folks from producing a V8 engine block that will work in place of their unit.
As long as its not being advertised as an "Optimizer" or has other trademarks on it that are owned by them the issue is pretty much a moot point.
I "do" think that the sellers would do themselves right to just say, "This is an aftermarket part" Nuff said.
As far as the other sellers, if they are having issues and are not selling what they say they are, this stuff will be self limiting and the jungle drum works well to sort out the "Good the bad and the ugly"
I personally am going to fly by the seat of my pants as I usually do and continue to ask questions as I go and not rely on advertising to make up my mind.
If its a major trade item "brand name" I read things like epinions and such to see who is talking about it and what sort of "smack" is coming down.
I recently bought a new DSLR camera and did read the on line opinions for about a month before making up my mind.
There were several factors that influenced my final decision.
IMHO here at TDP we need to pass along good experiences as well as bad.
If you have had good luck with a product, let us know, if you have a bad time, let us know.
All companies will have a bozo somewhere in the mix that may influence things badly with someone so we need to look at this too.
I try to overlook advertising and look directly at the product. Is it good? Does it work well? Is it cost effective? What is/was the company service like?
The best and most honest of advertising can make a real POS look great.
The most obscure and off the wall little company with no advertising or poor advertising just might have the best product for the best price.
I have looked at DSG's page and sorted through what they have to say.
Looks good but there are a few little anomalies there as there are over at CCH's page. Nothing bad but if you dig deep enough I think one can find these anywhere.
I myself try to keep my sources confidential, and I do this because I have done the research on the product that I am puting my name on (502 stuff) and there exists the real possibility that the machine shop may also make parts for others that have not done well and this stuff all slides back and can make things look bad.
The company that produces my parts does so for about a dozen other companies.
Unfortunately some of these companies have screwed folks over and I dont want to be connected in any way with that crap.
I pay to have my parts made to spec and it always is and I put my name on it.
Hmmmmmm If it works good and lasts a long time, who care where it came from. :rolleyes:
AS far as AMG/GEP these companies are there to service big contracts and take care of one job, MAKING $$$$$$
These companies did not set up to take care of the rag tag band of 6.5/6.2 diesel lovers that are still out there plying the highways with their 7- 25 year old GM trucks.
This is big business thats looking to the future and to large commercial/Govnt contracts and basically could care less about us.
The only connection they have to us is that they just happen to produce a product that will retrofit easily into our trucks.
My views here are not meant to be hurtful or in any way degrade the fine products that these companies produce.The fact is that they are not
required to take care of GM's customer base of the last many years.
The aftermarket, whoever and however they are will do that,and it seems that they are here and doing what they do best.
Just some thoughts. :)
Support our vendors and most of all be honest about your experiences good or bad :D
Hope this finds all of you well.
Robyn
It took me some time to read all the replies to this topic as I didn’t followed from scratch. Robyn’s original request was to reply on how many “BAD” heads from CCW and ..... was out there.
All the replies added a lot off good value to the forum but there wasn’t anyone who reported one that actually failed. Lots off reports on quality that’s not up to the known standards or OEM specification, that’s true.
Here in South Africa we salvage every part on a 6.2 no matter broken or not. Rather try and fix it than sit with nothing.
I replaced four GM heads that was cracked.
So my question: Was the heads manufactured by GM ever to their own specifications or did they battled to get it up to standard.
“WHAT IF IT BRAKES” and did it indeed brake?
The original heads had issues.
GM made some running changes in the design but the problem was never totally fixed.
The issue on this thread still seems to be that nobody should be marketing aftermarket heads without proper authorization and if they do they need to make it well known that they are copies.
My personal opinion is that if the stuff works and I can afford it, Im going to use it.
The factory stuff if you can get it is very spendy and it will suffer the same failure over time as the stuff that came on the engine originally.
Some of the aftermarket seelers are indeed marketing their product with their own name on it.
CCH is just marketing heads as either reman or new and they dont make any mention as to where the stuff comes from.
The new ones dont say GM on them.
In this day of spiralling prices the end user must do what they can to keep repair costs in check me thinks.
I have a set of CCH heads on a 94 Burb and they work fine. The long term reliability is still up for grabs.
The only feedback to speak of has been the issue of morality, legality ect.
All I want to hear about is some actual failures of these aftermarket heads and what actually happened.
I have seen a buttload of used up and cracked GM stuff so the story is pretty much there for all to see.
If there are failures then we can point the finger at the possible flaws.
Until we see some failures then the issue of whether the parts are good or not is just pure speculation.
Several major diesel engine manufactures such as Cummins to name one have plants in China and produce a ton of stuff there that I know good and well is being shipped all over the globe.
This issue will not die here I am sure. I really think that if we never hear or see one bad head from the aftermarket that there will still be many that will call trash on them just because they are not GM products.
The stuff from DSG is marketed under their own name and they are a supporter or TDP.
This is a good reason to support them me thinks. :)
As far as the other suppliers I think the probability is good that all these heads are coming from the same foundary and find their way into the US market from various points around the globe.
We shall see. I am still wanting to hear of one of these heads thats seen clock time and failed due to a fault in manufacture or materials.
The sets I have seen all seemed to be great stuff.
Later.
Robyn
More Power
01-15-2008, 11:48
Robyn, You said:
GM made some running changes in the design but the problem was never totally fixed.
The factory stuff if you can get it is very spendy and it will suffer the same failure over time as the stuff that came on the engine originally.
While what you say is mostly true for GM produced cylinder heads (I've seen used GM heads that were not cracked), it's not for those cast by Navistar since 11/01. Navistar was tasked with solving the cracking problem in both the blocks and the heads. Aside from a number of design changes, Nav also changed the cast-iron alloy to include more chromium. The end result was a new cylinder head that I've yet to hear have produced a crack. :)
The CCH web site ad for their aftermarket 6.5 heads says "GM Cylinder Heads" at the top and "MFG:GM" in the spec list. You and I, and everyone here know what the situation is, but most other 6.5 owners would likely assume their heads are made by GM.... On the other hand, their eBay ad clearly indicates they are aftermarket. If CCH added the word "aftermarket" to their web site ad, I'd be OK with it. ;)
Jim
Jim I called the folks at CCH on that very thing. Their opinion is that the ad is refering to the Engine being GM not the manufacture of the head that they are selling.
I asked them to include a truth in writing about the source but have yet to see them change it.
They probably wont either as as they put it, Nobody is complaining.
Just part of everyday life in the real world me thinks.
Jim Faire
01-15-2008, 22:26
The CCH web site ad for their aftermarket 6.5 heads says "GM Cylinder Heads" at the top and "MFG:GM" in the spec list. You and I, and everyone here know what the situation is, but most other 6.5 owners would likely assume their heads are made by GM.... On the other hand, their eBay ad clearly indicates they are aftermarket. If CCH added the word "aftermarket" to their web site ad, I'd be OK with it. ;)
Jim
Not to be a PITA, but their ad also says Model: Truck when it's fairly obvious that it's a cylinder head they're talking about, not a truck.
I really think you're splitting hairs on this one, Boss. From everything I can see, it's fairly obvious that these are aftermarket. I stand by my earlier comments, where customers can be misled by the phrase 'hummer-style' blocks. If CCH's MFG:GM is deemed to be misleading, I think 'Hummer-style' equally implies AMD.
Sorry... that's how I see it.
I certainly did not intend for us to fuss over such pissy little stuff like advertising but really just wanted to ferret out whether the product has seen any downfall.
I will agree with Jim that supporting a vendor who pays to be here is a good thing.
I have reached a point in my life that grumbling about something I cant change is just too much work.
I am still of the opinion that AMG/GEP and the rest of these folks really dont care a tinkers damn about the rag tag band of 6.5 lovers out here in the market place.
I will however give you this, if I see a nice writeup in a major publication that AMG/GEP is very concerned about the civilian market and really wants to support us and take care of us as customers I will trot right over and write out a detailed retraction to my previous statement :D and embellish it well with apologies.
I am not going to hold my breath though. :rolleyes:
I am still wanting to hear of some nasty failures of these flawed aftermarket heads. I want to see pictures with precups laying in pieces and nasty old cracks running all over the firedeck that look like a troop of spiders invaded the thing.
Just bring me one story that proves that these are indeed not worth the time to look at.
Just remember, I would love to buy US made stuff as many others want to. I just want the stuff at a price that I can afford.
$670 for a set of complete heads to my door is a bargain especially when they are not someone elses cast offs that may have been subjected to lord knows what..
I really dont wish to debate the moral or ethical issue in this thread.
If I have an engine that is down and I need the rig, I need parts that are going to fix the thing and get it back on the road and do a good job.
I have debated morals and ethics with many people over many issues and it never quits.
If the sellers are marketing junk then we need to make it known and I will be the first to howl if I find junk, but so far such has not been the case.
The reason for the influx of the clones is the lack of good customer support on the local (US) level.
Just cruising
Robyn
More Power
01-17-2008, 13:19
I just spoke to Trent Millard at DSG about 6.5 cylinder blocks, cylinder heads and their own web site advertising. I found it most enlightening.
Trent said that their Titan 6.5L engines are new units built with the latest AM General castings - both heads and blocks. I mentioned that saying "Hummer -Style" would not be as effective in an ad as saying "Genuine AM General castings". He said he'd change it.
They do not sell complete longblocks or drop-in engines with aftermarket heads, but they do sell aftermarket heads separately. I asked that they indicate "aftermarket" on the ad pages for the aftermarket heads. He said he would.
They do not sell aftermarket cylinder blocks for the 6.5. Trent said he looked at the imported blocks, and found them to be inferior pieces.
Trent said the first batch of imported 6.5 heads they acquired appeared to be quality units, and have had no customer complaints. The valve guides, for example, were steel inserts, instead of machined cast. The latest batch of imported heads they bought did not have the steel valve guide inserts and were rougher looking. They are in the process of evaluating them..... I also mentioned that a member here bought a set of aftermarket heads, and removed one of the precups, which had metal debris under the cup and that the cup was magnetic where the OEM cups are not magnetic. Trent thought that was interesting, and said he'd check that out as well. Trent said they won't sell problem parts.
Jim
JIm
This is interesting news. Good deal to know they are offering some top quality stuff and are willing to advertise just what they are selling.
I was chatting with the owner of a local shop here that has been bringing in the aftermarket castings. He is getting them bare and then installing the parts from GM heads that are cracked. He removes the precups that are good with no cracks as welll as the valves, springs and such. The heads are all refit to specs then decked lightly to assure a good final fit and finish.
He had been using one of the outfits that were selling the stuff complete but had a couple sets that were bad (Not CCH) He then brokered a deal to get bare castings.
I found out he has been doing this for about 3 years and to date has had zero issues.
He sells his stuff only out the door to customers that bring him a set of heads.
Its understood right up front that the castings are aftermarket and that most of the parts are used (remachined)
He also runs a tap through all the holes and makes sure the finished product is ready to go to work.
When he sendds them out they are painted and all spiffy.
He is not sure where the heads originate from but is like me and suspects china.
Good to hear that there are some folks trying to do a good job.
I have a date here soon to go look at a New China Block.
This same shop has one on order for a customer and they are going to build up a 6.5 to replkace one that has a broken main web. (Broke clean loose) The engine lost almost all oil pressure but still ran ok.
When the pulled it apart it was not immediately evident that the center main was broken clean loose.
It did not hit water but cracked all the way down and into the cam bearing area and allowed the oil pressure to leak badly.
I am supprised that it did not come apart.
Its was in a 97 Burb 2500 4x4.
They are using a lot of the original engine to build the new one.
The heads, cam and lifters,pistons, rods, pushrods, VC's Pan and the other incidentals.
They are still thinkiong about what to do for a crank. The crank that was in it is not broken and is not showing any cracks with a mag job.
I urged him to toss it. They may go with a Scat steel crank.
I am hoping to be able to see the new block before they stuff it all together.
Pete intends to check all the critical dims on the thing and run a bar through the mainline to see how good it is.
He also wants to check the cylinders to see if they are perpendicular to the crank and to make sure there are not any other issues.
This will be sweet to see first hand if this little creature measures up.
The original engine in that Burb had only 79800 miles on it so other than the broken main web it was like new inside
later
Robyn
Jim Faire
01-17-2008, 22:20
Thank you. (pass the salt... this crow isn't bad, but it could use a little catsup).
It's nice to know that these are indeed AMG blocks... there is just no way I would want to pay that much for a 'copy'. Like I said, advertising them as genuine AM General seems like a no-brainer idea, and one that would make the customer feel more secure.
Thanks again for following up on that.
Jim
I just spoke to Trent Millard at DSG about 6.5 cylinder blocks, cylinder heads and their own web site advertising. I found it most enlightening.
Trent said that their Titan 6.5L engines are new units built with the latest AM General castings - both heads and blocks. I mentioned that saying "Hummer -Style" would not be as effective in an ad as saying "Genuine AM General castings". He said he'd change it.
They do not sell complete longblocks or drop-in engines with aftermarket heads, but they do sell aftermarket heads separately. I asked that they indicate "aftermarket" on the ad pages for the aftermarket heads. He said he would.
They do not sell aftermarket cylinder blocks for the 6.5. Trent said he looked at the imported blocks, and found them to be inferior pieces.
Trent said the first batch of imported 6.5 heads they acquired appeared to be quality units, and have had no customer complaints. The valve guides, for example, were steel inserts, instead of machined cast. The latest batch of imported heads they bought did not have the steel valve guide inserts and were rougher looking. They are in the process of evaluating them..... I also mentioned that a member here bought a set of aftermarket heads, and removed one of the precups, which had metal debris under the cup and that the cup was magnetic where the OEM cups are not magnetic. Trent thought that was interesting, and said he'd check that out as well. Trent said they won't sell problem parts.
Jim
Jim Faire
01-25-2008, 11:09
Seems that DSG isn't the only ones with a claim to AMG blocks...
Reviva (and all the companies they supply to), 65DieselDirect, and RJPerformance also claim to be using genuine AMGeneral blocks.
So maybe it's not just Kennedy, GM, and Penninsular any more... this makes it a lot harder to tell what you're getting. (And more important to look, because there is several thousand dollars of price differential between those offerings.)
Amazing that hardly anybody's website says AMG blocks, but when you email them all, you get great descriptions and service.
And I thought AMG was pretty exclusive. I am so naive.
ThePIGSmith
02-13-2008, 12:15
Here is a posting about a 4.0L Jeep Cylinder modified for use on 258 block.
This modification was performed by Clearwater Cylinder Heads.
The poster reported the work performed was not done correctly.
"went to install the stainless valves only to discover that the guides were installed at all different heights and two were in upside down"
http://www.bulltear.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=8075
So, from the reports here on The Diesel Page about their 6.5 Heads and now this report, you can come to you own conclusions about the quality of work and products by Clearwater Cylinder Heads.
I have no dealings with them, so I will not comment, other than passing along information.
More Power
03-20-2008, 13:23
Just received a phone call from a member from Vernal, Utah who bought a new set of Chinese 6.5 heads from a local auto parts store. He had put a great deal of time, money and effort into his engine, beginning from the bottom up. One of the heads has a porosity leak from a water jacket into the cyl. It hydro-locked his newly rebuilt engine. He's not a happy camper.
Jim
Jim Faire
03-20-2008, 17:17
I just spoke to Trent Millard at DSG about 6.5 cylinder blocks, cylinder heads and their own web site advertising. I found it most enlightening.
Trent said that their Titan 6.5L engines are new units built with the latest AM General castings - both heads and blocks. I mentioned that saying "Hummer -Style" would not be as effective in an ad as saying "Genuine AM General castings". He said he'd change it.
They do not sell complete longblocks or drop-in engines with aftermarket heads, but they do sell aftermarket heads separately. I asked that they indicate "aftermarket" on the ad pages for the aftermarket heads. He said he would.
Jim
Not to be nit-picky, but neither of the two things Trent assured you would be done have happened.
The DSG website still lists brand-new "Hummer-Style" blocks. It also lists heads without the 'aftermarket' label.
Aside from the fact that Trent didn't follow-through on the assurances, they also list "the lowest price in North America on Bare heads". Not so... Ideal Cylinder head appears to have bare 6.5 TD heads for $218 with a 2-yr replacement warranty.
http://www.idealcylinderhead.com/gm-cylinder-heads/idl311-GM-cylinder-head.html
Now, that's only $23 less than DSG, but... since the topic is truth in advertising, I felt obliged to point that out.
I'm still busy eating my crow, by the way; it didn't go down all that well last time. Maybe Trent would like to split it with me.
I got a set of new heads I imported from china myself,including a block and crank. the heads look fine, and valves fit and plugs and injectors tread in OK, only thing I found was the precups are not stainless aloy.
But who is to say that is bad, after all the oem cups where all cracked on the heads i have seen sofar.
that must have been the reason the cups are of a different alloy. only way to find out is to bolt them on and put the miles on.
I have a set from Clearwater running on a 94 Burb and its been 24 months approx since they were put in service.
There are other good reports from a delivery company that has used many many sets of these and had Zero failures.
The only way to really know just what the full story is going to be is to wait and see what the long term spells out.
With so many sets running on little town delivery trucks that get the snot ran out of them, the prognosis is in my opinion fairly good.
Most probably the new AMG/GEP heads may be of better quality but the supply and the price are not really in the ball park for so many 6.5 owners.
My heads were $670 to my door with a return voucher for the old heads back to Florida.
The 94 has about 30K on it now and runs like a champ.
My feeling is that if they will run 100K without an issue then the stuff was worth using.
The truck had 237K when it failed and that was the original engine. The heads were junk with the valves well sunk into the heads and some cracking in the precup ports as well as the usual cracks between the valves.
The debate on any of these imported parts will rage on without end and the only way we will ever know the real story is to sit back and see how well it lasts.
For a later model truck that is in very nice shape and worthy of keeping the choice to use a new AMG engine would certainly be a good one.
Unfortunately so many of us cant afford to drop that sort of $$$$ into an engine.
My complete rebuild cost me an out of pocket of about $1800 total.
I dont count my own labor though as I can afford to do the work far more than I can come up with $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$.
I used all name brand internal parts (heads not counted) such as bearings and rings and such.
Many parts were scrounged off ebay and craigs list and other surplus sources.
The truck was down from April 28th until July 4th Roughly 2 months.
Had I been unable to do my own work the cost to have it done at a shop could have exceeded the value of the truck by a bunch$$$$$$$ :eek:
The repair costs that I incurred will easily be driven out over the next few years.
I paid $8000 for the rig in the winter of 04 and have no regrets so far.
Keep on a truckin
Robyn
More Power
03-27-2008, 10:52
Not to be nit-picky, but neither of the two things Trent assured you would be done have happened.
The DSG website still lists brand-new "Hummer-Style" blocks. It also lists heads without the 'aftermarket' label.
Aside from the fact that Trent didn't follow-through on the assurances, they also list "the lowest price in North America on Bare heads". Not so... Ideal Cylinder head appears to have bare 6.5 TD heads for $218 with a 2-yr replacement warranty.
http://www.idealcylinderhead.com/gm-cylinder-heads/idl311-GM-cylinder-head.html
Now, that's only $23 less than DSG, but... since the topic is truth in advertising, I felt obliged to point that out.
I'm still busy eating my crow, by the way; it didn't go down all that well last time. Maybe Trent would like to split it with me.
I'm not a baby sitter. I did my part. Maybe you or others can take it the rest of the way.... :D
DSG's ads mostly undersell their 6.5 engine products, as you pointed out in an earlier post. If I were selling genuine AMG longblocks, I'd sure as hell say it, cuz it is a big advantage. As far as lowest price in NA for heads, I'm quite sure they would meet or beat any legitimate advertised price (they have to with their ad saying what it does). Perhaps they're not updating their web pages as often as their competition does.... ;)
Jim
Jim Faire
09-19-2008, 17:19
Not to be nit-picky, but neither of the two things Trent assured you would be done have happened.
The DSG website still lists brand-new "Hummer-Style" blocks. It also lists heads without the 'aftermarket' label.
Aside from the fact that Trent didn't follow-through on the assurances, they also list "the lowest price in North America on Bare heads". Not so... Ideal Cylinder head appears to have bare 6.5 TD heads for $218 with a 2-yr replacement warranty.
http://www.idealcylinderhead.com/gm-cylinder-heads/idl311-GM-cylinder-head.html
Now, that's only $23 less than DSG, but... since the topic is truth in advertising, I felt obliged to point that out.
I'm still busy eating my crow, by the way; it didn't go down all that well last time. Maybe Trent would like to split it with me.
Our Titan Engines utilize a brand new high nickel hummer style block.
Meanwhile, back at the ranch, because I couldn't get a satisfactory answer from DSG, I bought the cheapie heads from Ideal, and they're going strong.
I'm really not trying to stir up anyhing, but since everybody jumped to DSG's defense so fast, I just sort of wonder why there hasn't been any follow-through from their end?
And they're a Canadian Company. It really sucks when us Canucks end up having to deal with US companies because the Canadian ones keep changing their story. RJ Performance out of Calgary claims to have AMG stuff, too, but always seems to disappear when proof gets mentioned.
I don't mind paying less for possibly Chinese parts. I just hate it when somebody tells me they have AMG stuff and it isn't... it isn't a matter of feeling ripped-off, just a matter of truth in advertising.
You know, all the things you jumped all over Robyn about, DSG just hasn't been able to follow through on. You might want to think about that.
I have a set of the Clearwater units on my 94 Burb and its running like a champ.
I am sure that one gets what they pay for and for $670 a set delivered to the door they were definately a bargain.
Good fit and finish and so far so good. 30K now on the engine.
Best
Robyn
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