Just where do our parts come from

[Robyn]

With all the banter going on about the merits or lack there of depending on your persuation of the aftermarket heads and blocks I have been thinking again, and this is dangerous!! :eek:

In the years I have built engines I have seen many many neat little boxes with new replacement parts in them grace the many work benches I have had the privledge of calling my own.

I have seen Sealed Power, Perfect Circle, Cleavite, Delco, GM, Ford Autolight, Mopar, Felpro, National, and this list just goes on and on.

As of the last couple engine rebuilds I have taken to using a supplier here in the metro area that sells to the rebuilders and the parts are all
"White Box or in some cases "Brown Box" stuff.
The parts all come in bulk packs and are stuffed into a build kits in the quantity needed.
The list in the main box tells who the maker was and the country of origin.

Many of the names I recognise as my old standby's but in a lot of cases the country of origin is no longer USA.

I have seen Mahle Pistons in these kits as well as Sealed Power and also Silvalite. Depends on what they get for the right price.
The rings are all over the sky as to who's name was on them.

Recently I helped haul down a 6.5 from a 98 Burb. The engine was factory as the owner bought it new.

We found two different brands of bearings in the beast and there were two cylinders that had slightly different oil rings than the other six. HMMMMM.

I wonder just how much stuff that the factories use on the assembly line is really all that much better than the stuff we can buy at the parts store or the rebuilders warehouse.

So much of the OEM stuff was made by folks like TRW and so on originally.

Now how many boxes do you get at the Ma General store that says Made in Mexico on them or possibly other places on the planet.

The discord over the Chinese made heads seems to be a focal point here at TDP and I can understand many folks having issues with a lot of the stuff that is sold.
Do we really know where many of the parts in our beloved 6.5 Td's came from originally.

Just because it has GM cast into the thing does not mean that it came from the good O'l USA or was made by American workers.

Just thinking about how much real worry it is worth fussing over where the replacement part came from.
Now I know I am going to hear about this but the truth is one big bunch of our parts and the originals come from overseas in the first place.


I am sad to see names that I have associated with salt of the earth American companies now on boxes that say Made in China, Made in Mexico, Made in Tiawan. Awe Sh** Frank do we make anything here any more?? :eek:

I am just asking the question, are we over reacting to where one replacement part is being made and overlooking the bulk of the other parts we happily bolt onto our trucks.

How many water pumps have any of you looked at recently to see where they are made.

Buy a Delco starter for your truck, made in the USA?? Probably remanufactured south of the Border.
Very little electrical parts like starters are available new now except for new rigs being assembled.

Recently rented a D5M Cat Dozer to do some dirt work here at the Ranch.
The sticker on the lovely little toy says "Made In Japan" :( Hmmm
I associate Cat with Peoria Illinois. Long way from there to Japan me thinks.

Just some food for thought before we bash everything on the marketplace that is being sold to us.

I did not say that you had to like it, just that its there, think about it.:eek:

I will admit that there is some real junk out there and we all need to be careful when buying.
There is one HELLUVA Lot of junk being rebuilt here and sold as top quaility. HMMMMM I'll pass on a lot of it.

Just sitting here thinking.


Best

Robyn

[john8662]

Why we have a problem with Chinese stuff…

Primarily because we can all relate to the "made in China" phenomenon.

We can all see it's negative effects, for the economy, etc. One of the number one things we've always associated with Chinese made stuff is that it's always the cheap alternative to the part we really wanted.

So anything that comes out of there, we hold that same grudge to, just another bunch of "b" product, cheap stuff, probably junk.

That's one of the issues we hold against the Chinese heads. It's not that we're all against foreign made stuff.

The second, and most important issue that we hold against the Chinese goods is that most of them are ripped off. They are made without regard to copyright and the original designer in mind. This point has been made my Jim concerning the blocks and the heads, and I totally agree.

These parts are “copies” externally. They look similar, but are they really correct? Do they have the correct metallurgy, correct sized ports in the castings? No, because they were built by the method of reverse engineering, take one apart and copy it. If they were done correctly, with rights, they’d be made of the right components, and have the engineering data associated with the first heads to work with. On something that is copied, there is some guesswork that goes into it, maybe a hit, likely a miss.

So, are the parts worth trying or any good?

Maybe, but it's not morally correct that they even exist.

[Hubert]

Several years back I had the privilage to work for an OEM to Ford, GM, and Chrysler.

As time goes on and cars and trucks change production older parts are called service parts. Contracts are awarded to different companies to supply the company / dealer stock. Supply is more batch oriented depending on demand. Contracts were swapped periodically as business price, quality, and delivery were all up for grabs.

I visited Ford's parts redisbribution center once. And as part of the process trucks delivered brown boxes from all sorts of suppliers and they went down a conveyor to workstation that reboxed them into Ford brand Autolite boxes iirc. Quality was a random check for most things. I personally saw different color body side molding (were suppose to be the same part) from different vendors mixed together in the same bin for distribution to the dealers. Since parts were for models about 10 years old: masters and specifications were muddied due to contract negotiations and individual mfg liberties. Its really hard for any company to guarantee perfect quality when tooling is swapped around "masters", guaging, prints, etc are lost and replaced for older parts.

I guess my eyes were opened and nievity lost and now am not impressed with "Factory" parts for most older parts out of current production. Its best IMHO to evaluate parts on an individual basis. The 6.5 is slightly different since its still in production for the Military. So I do respect major engine components a little more from authorized sources but no I don't hold GM/Ford/Chyrsler on a pedestal for all the other more generic truck parts.

[Robyn]

John

:DYou are now preaching to the choir :D
I fully understand the feelings that you are talking about.
The one issue that I am getting to here is that a whole lot of the stuff that we take for granted is made abroad and is its quality good or ??????????

I still believe the china stuff we are seeing for the 6.5 is the result of some US based good O'l boys contracting this stuff to fill a need in the market place.

Is it morally right???, I am not really sure there exists that condition in the marketplace any more, or even if it ever existed.
Corporate espionage has existed since the times of Henry Ford and before.
The reverse engineering of stuff and copying has been going on since stuff has been made.

Is it right?? but it goes on all the time and it is never going to stop.

Are the big boys actively engaged in the process of copying ech others technologies, yup, every day.

At this point in the process I am not so worried about morality as I am about whether the part I am looking at is any good.

For aguements sake if a box of pistons said, Made in China. The consensus seems to be, OHHHH Junk, No thanks.
Now if the box of pistons says, Germany, Austria, New Zealand then it would be OK??

I am of the opinion that a great percentage of the stuff coming from China is made in US company set up factories with US dollars bank rolling it.

I hate seeing jobs going out the country as much as the next person but this whole process is the result of greed on the part of a lot of people.

THE EPA can be thanked for a lot of this. So many manufacturing laws governing processes and emissions and such make doing business too costly here so the companies go where they can cut a fat hog and pay little.
Simple economics and bottom line.

I hear the concerns and I the understand the frustration but I think many are missing the big picture.

As far as morality goes, Life is not fair, its a bitch and its not going to change anytime soon.

This issue has no solutions as the folks pulling the strings will figure a way to make the big picture work to their advantage every time.

This still does not mean we have to like it.

Dont missunderstand me, I would much rather the box say MADE IN THE USA on it every time I look.
You wont find a much more red blooded (RED NECKED) American girl than me.

I have no answers to the issues at hand. The large corporate empire is not in our corner and they could care less about you, me or anyone else any more.

Chevrolet is not about Baseball, Mom and Apple pie, never has been.
Its not Like A Rock either.
Its BIG $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ in someones pocket and those folks could care less about you and me as long as we spend our hard earned $$$$

Next time you see a box of engine parts that says Made in China on it,
please dont cuss the Chinese as the reason that part cames from China is because of some Fat cat here that is making $$$$ hand over fist by making the stuff there instead of here.

One of my Customers owns a trailer manufacturing shop, he contracted to have his trailers made in China and even with shipping he saves over half of what its cost to do it here.

The stuff is nice but I look at the jobs that went away here because he is outsourcing.

Just my thoughts, not that I like what I see but this is how I see it and I am not the only one seeing it either.

There are no morals in the world of big business, yup look at Enron.

I digress

best

Robyn

[More Power]

I don't have a serious problem with "made in China", consumers are entitled to make that choice, and there are a few reasons for buying consumer products made in China.

However, I can arrive at my own opinion when those parts are produced without the approval or quality control of the company that owns the rights to their production. Throw in some inferior or questionable qualities in those products, and the case against them becomes compelling. In the end, other than the people who pay attention to these boards, no one will know they are not getting the genuine articles.... I think the US & Canadian companies selling these Chinese knock-offs should provide full disclosure in their advertising.


Jim

[john8662]

It also makes me uneasy about the Chinese reproduction heads that there is no company logo or identification on them. They are being sold as though they're the genuine article. That's another thing wrong with them.

If they're aftermarket, fine, but the aftermarket company producing them should mark them with their company logo, instead of passing them off as, "yeah, they're GM heads"

So, when it fails down the line, and the truck (back to the heads) is in another owners posession. They're going to remove those heads, find the problem and just write it off to "another 6.5 with busted heads."

That's all there is to say...

J

[76m880]

i have a replacement 27mt starter that was made in taiwan that destroyed one of my flywheels

[convert2diesel]

I have no idea what the laws are now as they pertain to disclosure of "country of origin" in the United States but back in the late eighties, I owned an automotive manufacturing facility up here in Canada and had to clearly label all parts "Made in Canada" before I was allowed to ship them to the US. Has this law changed or does it just apply to Canada?

I personally have little problem with the Chinese manufactured parts as long as they are labeled as such and they have been manufactured using industry standard QC guidelines and procedures. The Chinese have a 1,000 year head start on us as far as metallurgy is concerned and still have vast resources of the raw materials required. For the most part if the source is well known and trusted then the problems are non-existant. The problems occur with the level two production facilities in that country that will do anything it takes to feed product into the North American, or for that matter, the worldwide marketplace.

China's manufacturing industry is going through the same growing pains that were experienced by Japan and other Aisian countries with the exception that the Chinese Government has pulled out all the stops as far as financing only the very best process equipment, labour education and materials for this sector. In other words, they not only have the capabilities to meet, but in most cases they can and do exceed the manufacturing quality of product built elsewhere. They have the expertise, the newest equipment and a cheap, capable and willing labour force. They do have to weed out the bad apples but that will come with time and experience.

The downside is that everytime a North American company moves their production off-shore, they are removing those jobs from their own economy, effectively removing the ability of these individuals to buy the product being manufactured. This is pure and simple greed oriented with no consideration of the effects of that decision. While we are lucky on both sides of the border in that we still have a significant surplus of natural resources, the fact remains that manufacturing is the fuel that drives the middle class. The middle class drives the economy, buys the goods and pays the taxes. If you remove the middle class you are left with nothing. You can't run your economy on paper pushers and store clerks. You need to build something.

End of rant.

Bill

[a5150nut]

I have no idea what the laws are now as they pertain to disclosure of "country of origin" in the United States but back in the late eighties, I owned an automotive manufacturing facility up here in Canada and had to clearly label all parts "Made in Canada" before I was allowed to ship them to the US. Has this law changed or does it just apply to Canada?l

You left out "Proudly labeled them Made in Canada".

[convert2diesel]

You left out "Proudly labeled them Made in Canada".

That goes without saying

Bill

[Robyn]

One thing we have here in the States is a powerful entity called EPA.
This agency can and will snuff out most all plans to build new foundaries and industrial plants.\
They do this simply through such stiff regulations that the companies look elsewhere to build.
China welcomes them with open arms, Yes, come, bring your ideas and build your plant here and put our people to work.

Our situation isjust the oposite, take your ideas and go away, we dont want your plant here, its not what we want "IN OUR BACK YARD"

I hate it to the point of just wanting to scream and throttle some little enviro puke.

Having a clean environment is a good thing. Having the poeple working and making $$$$ for themselves as well as building products that sell and keep the country running is a better thing.

A soft based economy with nothing but office workers and software designers will not keep this country healthy.

We need a strong industrial base that can build anything from nothing.

Not that long ago here up Portland way we had heavy foundaries and big machine shops that could turn out almost any sort of heavy equipment and do so in quantity.
No longer, we now are a software and computer based economy.
There are some heavy industrial sites here but nothing like there used to be.

I view it this way. I cant afford to pay for the enviroment driven costs to produce the stuff I need.
My budgit is only capable of handling sop much.
If the good O'l boys want to build it over seas and sell it here at a price we can afford, I simply have no choice but to live within the budgit.

The AMG stuff I am sure is pretty good stuff, but comes at a back breaking price.

I completed an overhaul that I would say was top notch for under $2500 and to have bought stuff that was made here would have doubled the cost.

$5000 for an engine to put in a then 12 year old rig with 200+ K miles is hard to justify.

I agree that the stuff made in China can be great stuff, but if the QC is not rode on hard it can be crap too.

I dont see these issues going away in my lifetime so I am going to make do with what I can afford.

If you cant afford something then it might as well not exist cause the end result is the same.


Later troops