LED light replacement and electrical issue [Archive]

JFerg65

02-24-2008, 13:54

I am in the process of switching out some of the lights to LED's in my 1996 2500 suburban. I have replaced the interior ones with no issues. I have replaced the back up lights with some monster leds and no issues.

Here is where I'm running into problems. When I install the rear turn / brake and running lights - total two bulbs on each side. I get them to light up when just the turn signal is on and when I hit the brake. When I go and turn on the running lights only... the fuse blows. I put the filiament bulbs back in and change the fuse out and I'm good to go again.

I do have the hyper blinking, but that is due to the flasher unit. I have an electronic LED compatible one ready to put in if and when I get all the turn signal lights switched out.

Here is what I'm thinking at this point.
1. Since I only have the leds in some of the running light sockets it is creating some sort of imbalance that leads to the fuse going.

OK so I've only got one theory at this point......

If I can't come up with an easy fix I have some red 57 LEDS for sale (RED) :D

Any help would be appreciated

trbankii

02-25-2008, 18:09

Definitely need the LED flasher unit to have it flash properly, but all I've ever encountered is the fast flash rate - not blowing fuses... The LEDs use significantly less power, so there should be less draw and less likelihood of blowing a fuse...

Unless the flasher is going so fast it is shorting out and blowing the fuse?

In any case, I'd replace the flasher unit now. The LED flasher is supposed to work with LEDs or regular bulbs.

JFerg65

02-25-2008, 19:07

That was the answer I was looking for!!! Outstanding! That will be my next step. I'll throw in the new flasher and try again. Thanks

BamaChief600

02-25-2008, 21:03

So how did it go? I love LED's as a trucker we love chicken lights!!!
When we got our new Fire engine built we had all LED turns and stops and the new rescue truck we have being built will have all LEDs and LED light bar and emergency lighting.

DA BIG ONE

02-26-2008, 04:22

JFerg65

02-26-2008, 05:20

Got home too late and this morning we are in the beginnings of a winter storm, not sure when I will get to it.

I'm more excited about the interior LED's going in. I'll have better all around lighting and have less draw.

I have plans for a set of LED work lights on my rear load bar on top of my Suburban. That will turn night into day when I'm unloading all my waterfowling gear at 4:30 in the morning.

The whole LED process has been a learning experience in regard to what types of bulbs / applications are out there. Needless to say there is some real crap as well as some real nice products out there.

My advice to anyone doing this is, do your home work! Make certain the LED light (cluster) will fit into the existing housing such as a taillight.

cwillis

02-28-2008, 03:10

pictures????????

JFerg65

02-29-2008, 14:50

Are you serious?? What do you want pictures of?? My truck is presently under two feet of snow. But once it melts... hopefully by the end of the weekend, I could try.

JFerg65

03-16-2008, 07:30

Well the snow melted enough an the temp was over thirty so back to work I went on the suburban. I have all the interior lights, including map lights, dome, and door panel lights swapped out. In the map lights I installed a red led bulb in the left hand side map light and a white one in the right side. I did this on all three sets of map lights. I also put one in the glove box light.

I was most concerned with the interior lights since those are the ones that are always on when I've got the doors open unloading gear.

On the outside, I was able to install a pair for my back up lights. This seems to be a marked improvement over stock. It was a tight fit due to the (something like 57 leds on the unit!

I also a have a pair of amber ones on the side marker / turns. I installed a LED compatible flasher unit. They now flash in sync with the other standard bulbs.

Here is where the project has come to a complete stand still. I have tried to install LED's in the stop /turn in the rear. Everytime I do this the fuse blows when I turn on the running lights. I am assuming it is due to too much current but not certain. This happened with or without the heavy duty flasher unit.

At this point I'm guessing I would have to solder in resistors in line to balance out the current. NOT GOING to happen.

If anybody has any other suggestions / fixes, I am open for ideas.

I will have 4 brand new 57 LED SUPERBRIGHT lights in red for sale. Let me know if anybody may be interested.

Up next will be the pair of rear facing LED work lights mounted on my rear load bar.

Jeff

HillBilly2

03-18-2008, 04:54

You've got two separate circuits, one for the brake/turn signals and one for the running lights. brake/signals are OK. LED's are not gonna draw enough to blow fuses. Enough of a current thru them would blow them and open the circuit before the fuse would blow. It has to be something shorting with the bulbs. I know they are only supposed to be able to go in one way, but some socket/bulb combinations will allow it, not knowing how they are wired internally this might be an issue, check to verify. Only put in one side and test, then go to other side, see if you can isolate it to one side having the problem. It might be a defective bulb assy. Just some thoughts.

JFerg65

03-18-2008, 16:26

Thanks, I'll have to buy a boat load of fuses for the attempt. I'll take your advice and just install one bulb at a time so I can make sure it is in correctly and powering up. It may take a while but it just might work. Thanks again for the suggestion.

JohnC

03-19-2008, 08:19

Replace the fuse with a test light. If the light gets real bright the circuit is shorted.

cwillis

03-19-2008, 15:29

Everytime I do this the fuse blows when I turn on the running lights. I am assuming it is due to too much current but not certain. This happened with or without the heavy duty flasher unit.

At this point I'm guessing I would have to solder in resistors in line to balance out the current. NOT GOING to happen.
Jeff

There is no way that they draw more current than the incandescents do.

check out ohms law to figure it out.

i would take an ohmmeter to your wires without power to them and look for shorts.

JFerg65

03-19-2008, 17:38

I guess I wasn't so clear on that. I realize the LEDS draw significantly less power than the incandescents do. I don't blow fuses with the standard bulbs in, just when the LEDS are in. I'm going to go bulb by bulb, since they only will power up if in the correct way. (some sort of protection for the LEDS), I hoping that when in wrong it is / acts as a short and blows the fuse. Since there is no way to tell the correct way to install, you have a 50 /50 shot at it. This is why I'm going to buy a bunch of fuses and go one at a time to see if I can get these to work.

Thanks for the help I appreciate it.

DmaxMaverick

03-19-2008, 18:15

cwillis

03-20-2008, 01:59

Know why they only work with the correct polarity? Don't forget the "D" part of LED. The D is for Diode. A Diode is an electrical "check valve". You can either have a defective assembly (LED's installed backward), or the assembly has been installed incorrectly. A "backward" LED will act like a closed circuit (short). That's is it's function.

Many "cheaper" LED's, and some application specific LED's are resistor-compensated to work as a direct replacement for the incandescents. The LED's use significantly less amperage, but the method of their compatibility may exceed the amperage of the incandescent counterpart. You could also have the wrong LED for that circuit compatibility. Unfortunately, if they are resistor-compensated, they will use the same amperage as the OEM's (or should, if they are properly compensated). Then, the only difference left is the "cool factor", on/off speed, and illumination output. The longevity is still questionable. LED's should last forever, but it's usually the CB and circuitry that fails quickly (poor design).

ahh, outstanding point indeed. heres what i would do. ( i am no electrical engineer either, but alot of jeep guy had this problem and this is what we did)

if your LEDs have resistors, make sure they are installed correctly. you can try to find some without them or buy some LED's on a circuit board and mount those in your lights.

install in all or some of your lights.

replace flasher with an Electronic, Variable load unit. they have them at advanced auto parts for $9

These units are not thermally actuated. the old ones work like an automatic resetting curcuit breaker.

then you should be good.

Chris

JFerg65

03-20-2008, 03:52

I've got the electronic flasher unit, so I'm good to go there. The learning curve being what it is, I already have the rear led's (with the built in resistors). I don't have any problems with the two type 194 amber bulbs in my front corners. So I am really thinking when the leds are in backwards they are acting as a short. Like you, I'm no electrical engineer. I'll let you know what happens this weekend.

Thanks for the advice

JohnC

03-20-2008, 07:51

LED's in backwards will not conduct at all. In addition, there must be current limiting resistors in the assemblies or they would blow fuses all the time. LED's only drop about 1 volt, so you need something ( a resistor) to handle the other 12-13 volts.

DmaxMaverick

03-20-2008, 08:49

You're right, John. Open with reverse polarity.

HillBilly2

03-21-2008, 03:29

Actually I was thinking more of a short in the socket kinda thing if installed backward. Your right, LED's will do nothing if backward. A lot of these LED assemblys are made in series so no resistors are used. When they are used it is to limit voltage, not amperage. There is no way LED's will carry enough amperage to blow a fuse. It has to be a short, It just has to be. Right????

Something else I would probably do would be to get a couple of jumper wires, wire in a fuse, connect to the battery and just start connecting them to the bulb and see what happens. Verify that they work properly outside of the socket.

JFerg65

03-21-2008, 05:10

Hillbilly2, I'm in total agreement with you in regard to it just having to be a short of some sort. It certainly acts like a short. I will let everyone know in the next day or so what I can determine.

At this point there are only two variables;
1. led bulbs in place of the incandesents
2. The LED's may be in backwards (off 180 degrees)

The back of the package does indicate if the led does not light put it in the other way due to specific polarity.

It also indicates guaranteed lighting from 10.5 volts to 15.8volts.

It does appear to have some sort of resistor in line.

cwillis

03-21-2008, 05:50

did you try hitting them with an ohmeter to see whats going on? there could have been a careless piece of solder than occured when the child laborer in china sneezed, causing a short.

hit it with an ohmeter if it is something like .1-1 ohm something is up. also try making a simplified isolated circuit. like a fuse holder straight to the pos batt terminal, then to a .5 or 1 amp fuse, then your led, then ground. these things will start to isolate where your problem is.

after that i would turn your multimeter to the audible ohmeter function and put one lead on the positive wire in question (say brake light positive) and the other lead on a known good ground (with the brake light disconnected)

if it beeps it means you have a direct short in that circuit. keep on with the above meathod until you can isolate the problem to one component.

now that i think about it- it could be shoddy soldering in one unit causing a short when you switch to all LEDs. or multiple bad soldering jobs. are you sure these are for 12V DC negative ground?

JFerg65

03-21-2008, 07:16

I know the bulbs are correct for the application. I never thought about the poor soldering work by the nine year olds in china. (wow, that is sad)

Any how, that is a great set of suggestions and I will get on that today. Will check back in tonight.

I do have to say that once again, everybody on this site is great! I really do appreciate the help.

JohnC

03-21-2008, 14:52

HillBilly2

03-22-2008, 08:46

A diode will appear as a short when it is forward biased, but will produce a predictable voltage drop, usually on the order of 1 volt. No matter what resistor you put in series, the voltage on the diode will not change (within reason). Only the current changes. The power dissipated by the diode is the voltage drop multiplied by the current. Without a resistor the current will not be limited and the diode will blow. 12 diodes in series will drop (roughly) 12 volts but the current will still be unlimited.

Thats correct, but the diode will only draw the amount of current that it uses. If you were to connect them in series so they all got the proper voltage they would run without a resistor without a problem. About 30 years an old ham told me to think of electricity as water. The voltage is the pressure and the amperage is the flow. A resistor acts as a pressure regulator, in this case the LED acts as a valve. Clear as muddy water? lol

JFerg65

03-22-2008, 13:54

OK people here is the current deal after 11 20 amp fuses.

1. I was able to get four bulbs in and glowing with the running lights on.

2. Here is the current problem however. I was not able to get the brake lights to fire without blowing a fuse (brake circuit)or the turn signals to go without blowing a fuse (turn circuit).

3. What I am left with is the standard incandescent bulb in the brake socket and the LED in the runnning light socket.

4. I did find if the running light ones were in backwards, they blew the fuse. I went one at a time. If you looked carefully at the contacts in socket itself you could figure it out.... or else I just got really lucky... LOL

5. I do know these bulbs are supposed to work in the brake socket. I will check with a guy who carries another brand who has been real helpful to this point with some other 194 bulbs I purchased.

So now it is back to you fine people for some feedback. I think I would be content with the current set up but now it's a challenge to get this worked out. So any help would be appreciated once again.

Jeff

cwillis

03-24-2008, 04:31

did you take ohmmeter to them yet?

set your multimeter to ohms (the omega symbol) and touch the two contacts, repeat and see if all of the assemblies are identical. this is more than likely your porblem.

JohnC

03-24-2008, 10:33

Thats correct, but the diode will only draw the amount of current that it uses.

That is not correct. You can drop 12 volts across a starter motor or across a 1 watt lightbulb. the current is radically different, though. Both the starter and the bulb have resistance and the the magnitude is what makes the difference. Diodes do not have resistance as such when forward biased. No current limiting reisitor, no current limit, fried diodes every time.

To put it another way, if you put a single LED across a 1.5 volt battery, it'll get real bright for a very short time period.

cwillis

03-24-2008, 17:29

for us to help anymore you have to give us some measurements. pull out the multimeter man. . . this has all turned to total theory and guesses.
start measuring and posting.

JFerg65

03-25-2008, 14:25

OK CWillis, I finally got around to using the multimeter....

Here is what I got. by playing around a bit and moving the probes from contact to contact I was able to get consistent readings of 1.6 - 1.8 on both sides. This was only done on the brake / turn light, (middle of three bulbs.).

The regular incandescents work as they should no issues with turn or brake lights signals.

I ran some pig tails off a 12 volt source on the led lights them selves and was able to get them to light off of both sets of contacts.

Still waiting to hear back for the other LED guy I know.

cwillis

03-26-2008, 02:11

well you werent very specific but here is what i am guessing.

1.6-1.8 is ohms
and you did this by taking out the bulb in question and touching the probes to the light bulb (led unit) and then reversing the polarity of the leads.

if the above is true than you certainly have a bad led. Diodes are supposed to have low resistance in one direction and very high resistance in the other.

This is what makes then act like a valve. Its related to the p-n structure. If you are interested you should google silicone and solid state electronics.

anyways, ill wait for someone smarter to validate this but i would return that unit and get another.

JFerg65

03-26-2008, 05:33

Well I must apologize to CWillis. I totally misunderstood you when you said to take readings on the assemblies. I took that for the sockets and not the lights. It didn't make any sense to me when I was putting the leads on the closed circuit. I went back to the light assembly and took readings. I could only get one reading of around 1.2. I got a similar reading off of a stock 3057 bulb.

So I put the leads on another of the two led bulbs to a 12 volt source and could get two different brightnesses (just like in a 3057, low glow on one filament versus the high glow on the other) except all of the lights go on either high or low depending on what circuit / contacts were energized. I did not get this on the other led bulb, just low current or brightness.

So I am guessing there is where the problem lies. I'll try to return it but it is highly unlikely they'll replace it at this point.

I appreciate all the help, it is time to move on and schedule the glass guy to come out and reset my passenger side long side window so I don't turn the back end into a swamp every time it rains or the snow melts off the truck.

After that it's all new synthetic fluids except for the oil which will remain rotella.

Thanks again everybody for all the help and suggestions it was much appreciated.

SimonUK

03-26-2008, 11:43

When testing diodes including LED's with a multimeter the multimeter does not put out enough voltage to overcome the diodes PN junction. There should be a diode symbol on the selector switch of the multimeter which increases the output voltage at the probes and the display gives you the volt drop accross the diodes PN junction (typically 0.7 volts for a silicon diode and 0.2 volts for a germanium diode). Most meters will display 700 for 0.7 volts in the diode setting and 200 for 0.2 volts. There are other types of diodes which have different volt drops accross the junction. IE selenium diodes which if I remember correctly are 0.3 volts.

A diode if connected accross a battery will act like a dead short. How many of you have connected a CB radio the wrong way and blown the fuse. when you replace the fuse and connect the cb the correct way it works but for some reason a few months or years later for whatever reason you again connect it the wrong way round and switch on you fry the internals. The reason for this is the 'reverse polarity protection diode' which is a sacrificial silicon diode which acts as a short to blow the fuse if the polarity is reversed IE connected the wrong way round. The diode is destroyed and the rig is saved but next time you have a 'senior moment' you are not so lucky as there is no protection because that tiny 1N4001 diode that costs about 2cents wasn't replaced.

There could be 4,5,6 or even 20 amps flowing through an LED and its only using maybe 10 or 20 milliamps to emit light so 4 amps in but 3.999 or 3.998 out etc.

I would check to see if there are current limiting resistors in series with the LEDs and make sure they are the correct resistance. There should be some coloured bands on the resistors unles they're surface mount in which case they'll look like little black bits of plastic with soldered edges with the resistance value printed on them.

If theres no current limiting resistors then it easy enough to buy a 1/2 or 1 watt resistor from radio shack and wire it in series with the LED unit. Try maybe a 5K resistor. If too bright then go to a 7 or 8K or if too dull try a 4 or 3K. they only cost a couple of cents each. Start with a higher value resistor rather than a lower value.

Hope this helps a bit.

Simon.

JFerg65

03-26-2008, 16:38

That really helps a great deal. It is hard to see the diodes, but they are black , plastic like. I'll try to take a closer look to see if I can make anything out on them in regard to size.

Thanks for the info

cwillis

03-26-2008, 19:01

the diodes are the LEDs themselves. Light Emitting Diode=LED
The other things soldered in are more than likely resistors. they should have a value measured in ohms.

also make sure that when you measure resistance (ohms), make sure you have a DE-Energized circuit. Measuring energized circuits will more than likely damage your meter and at very least give bad measurements.

Chris

JFerg65

03-30-2008, 12:39

Well... I made contact with the other LED light distributor I had purchased some 194 bulbs from and he helped out. I took a flyer on this one and made some assumptions based on my experiences as well as all the great feedback / input I received. I bit the bullet and purchased two bulbs from him. I just finished installing... and they both worked right out of the gate. This brand appears better built and even brighter than the previous ones.

As in the past couple of tries with the original LED's, I had them right next to the light assembly when I pulled out the incandescent bulb. I made sure the contacts were going in the same way as the incandescents and installed and tried seperately as I went. No problems!

So now the rear end is all squared away with new LED's. It is on to the front amber ones.

I'm not sure if this violates websigth policies / procedures ... but if anybody decides to go down this path, I would not hesitate to recommend VLEDS (brand). You can find them on the web or ebay. The best thing aside from the product is that he doesn't screw you on shipping and handling like so many others do.

I would also highly recommend switching out interior maps / domes to led's , they are much brighter and give off better all around light. If you have pairs of map lights you can install one red for night driving and the ohter the bright or super white. I have had the oppertunity to use both and it is a great addition.

Thank You once again for all the help on this one.

JFerg65

04-12-2008, 09:09

After poking around the V-LED websight there is a specific bulb required for the center bulb on older body style chevy's and GMC's. How about that. No wonder I was blowing fuses like they were going out of style. It was also stated if you keep blowing fuses in the brake / turn bulb, then you probably need this special bulb 3157-srck I will try to find out what srck stands for unless somebody out there knows.

Just thought I would throw that out there for future reference.

jeff

DmaxMaverick

04-12-2008, 09:46

SRCK/SACK

The R or A is the color. R for red, A for amber.

The bulbs differ from the standard 3157 in they have one common ground, vs. two ground leads. Probably why you were blowing the fuse. A standard application 3157 bulb can be converted to a SxCK bulb, but isn't worth the trouble, and unsuccessful most of the time. Get the correct bulb. They are unique to the center lamp of 88-99 GM full size trucks, SUV's, and a couple cars. Some Dodge vehicles use them, but I don't know which.