Wheel balance/roundness

[ronniejoe]

I have a long term issue that has plagued my Suburban for far too long. I can't seem to keep the wheels and tires in balance. I've had at least four sets of tires of varying brands (Goodyear, Michelin, Big-O and Dunlop) on the truck with the same results. Initial balance quality has varied. Some have been very smooth at first, others have been in and out of the tire shop, never to be balanced as well as I would like. All have had the same result later on. At about half the tread life, the tires seem to be square and vibrate badly at highway speeds. At this point, no amount of corrective balancing can address the problem.

I even changed the brake drums on the rear once to see if that would help (they are huge, 13" X 3" drums that are extremely heavy). Didn't make a difference.

I'm suspecting wheel rim roundness issues. I have swapped the spare rim that has seen very little service onto what seemed to be the most offensive location with no real change.

I will be checking runout of the rim (crudely) in both the radial and axial planes. If they are bad, what are my options?

Factory rims price out at nearly $350.00 a piece.

Any suggestions for things that I might have missed?:confused:

[Idle_Chatter]

Ronniejoe, the best and longest-term balance I've ever gotten is with Dyna-beads. I have them in all 8 wheels/tires that I run on the DMax (4 mounted summers and 4 mounted winters). Balance started out smooth as glass and has stayed that way for a couple of years, apparently completely unaffected by wear or clogging with snow, ice or mud. 5 ounces of the little ceramic buggers in each tire and a filtering valve core and it's done.

[ronniejoe]

Hmmm... Dyna beads. Never heard of them. Gonna have to do a little research.

[wfyehl]

Ronniejoe,

I have the exact same problem with my tires on my '96 Sub. I am on my 4th set of tires, and they all get progressively worse as more miles are on them. So far the worst were a set of Dunlops. After about 30K miles, it seemed like I was taking them in for re-balancing each month.

Since I do all my tire business with Discount Tire, I am suspecting either their balancing machine, or their Tech's.

I do have to rims that have a slight bend in them, but Discount says they can balance that out - not bent enough to replace.

If you find a solution, let us know.

[ronniejoe]

I was up by Fort Wayne Tuesday night. We bought a used 2004 Honda CRF250R from a guy in Topeka, IN. We stopped and visited with a pastor friend of ours in FW on the way back.

[Idle_Chatter]

Hmmm... Dyna beads. Never heard of them. Gonna have to do a little research.


Sold by innovative balancing

http://www.innovativebalancing.com/

[ronniejoe]

Thanks. I've already read quite a bit about it. I also found, through searching, a thread on a Dodge site somewhere about a guy who had problems. I may be in the same boat.

He said that on two of his wheels, to balance them with static weights, there was signficantly more weight on one side of the rim or the other (inside to outside). I've looked at mine and have a similar situation. My problem may be primarily in the rims.

As I said before, I've checked on factory rims and they are outrageous from the dealer. Any suggestions for rims?

[DmaxMaverick]

Run the wheels on a balancer w/o tires. Go straight to the horse's mouth.

[wfyehl]

ronniejoe,

I have been trying to find a set of the newer forged aluminum rims (off of a 2000+ 3/4 or 1 ton GMC), but can't find any reasonable locally. The boneyards that I talked to says they get ~$125 each for them, and sell them as soon as they get them. I know my imbalance is due to the rims also. I will be going up to Michigan (Flint) to visit my parents (dad just had a hip replace), so I'll check around up there for rims. Since the area is so depressed, I might luck out and get them for a song.

BTW - I notice on your sight you went to GMI. I couldn't find a sponsor, so ended up going to Michigan Tech (Farthest away from home as possible but still in state). I had quite a few friends that went to GMI. Good school, interesting part of town.

Take care,

[Robyn]

RJ

I have seen a very similar situation on the Burbs we have owned over the years.
I have done almost the same things you have done in trying to correct the issue.

As the tires wear, especially on the front they tend to get odd cups andor dished areas and this leads to a great amount of the anoying rumble and vibration.

I finally started using a product called "Equal" in the Burb.

This is a plastic powder that is shot in through the valve stem.
The product is sold in the proper sized packets for the various tire sizes.

The stuff will spread out in the tire with centrifugal force and it will move to the spot that needs the weight and thus ballance the tire.

I have used this stuff on the big rig for years and love it.
I run huge super singles on the front of the Ghost (385-65 X 22.5)
I can run at 70 if I desire and the truck is a smooth as a Babies butt.

The nice thing is that as the tire wears the Equal moves to compensate for the changes in the ballance.

This stuff is as close to the best place for weights as is possible.

Ballancing down on the wheel (which can be a fair distance from the actual problem) leaves something to be desired.

Try Equal and see if it helps

Best

Robyn

[JohnC]

I have to agree with Robin. Equal is magic. I didn't believe it would work, but our local truck repair shop uses it in anything bigger than a 14" wheel, exclusively, and it sure seems to do the trick.

Try these guys (http://www.neww.com/) for factory takeoffs. I've had good luck dealing with them in the past.

[Idle_Chatter]

Will 2001+ OEM PYO aluminum rims fit your burb? I was shopping for a set of OEM steel wheels to mount my snows year before last and couldn't find any anywhere, even at the dealers. I was in the local tire shop and got a set of 4 aluminum PYO takeoffs with lug nuts and hub covers for $64 each. There are a LOT of lifts and big tires here in SE Idaho, so there are a lot of takeoffs. Try calling a few of the tire outlets to see what they have - I was sure happy to get the deal that I stumbled onto.

[ronniejoe]

What does PYO mean?

[DmaxMaverick]

What does PYO mean?

That's the RPO of the 2000+ forged aluminum wheels. They are 16x6.5 8 lug. They fit nicely on earlier models, and look pretty nice. 2001/2002 M/Y wheels are Alcoa, and later wheels are from Hungary. I don't know if there is any functional difference, but I couldn't see any physical differences, and no one has complained about failures of either. There's a pic of the Alcoa label (from my wheel) in my sig. link.

[Idle_Chatter]

What does PYO mean?

Yeah, sorry about that, it's the stock rim on nearly all the DuraMax trucks except for the very basic LS models, duallys (steel) and the new single rear wheel one-tons. Because they are only 6.5 wide for the standard 245 tires and don't support anything wider than a 285 well, they are takeoffs by the hundreds and a very good wheel if you want to say stock on the tire size (245R16) like I have.

[GMC Hauler]

Got my rims off of ebay. Went to get the 4 rims from the guy personally when I lived in Washington. You could check and see if anyone that is selling them on ebay lives locally, and would agree for local pickup.

[rhsub]

A buddy of mine has a 02 HD 2500 Dmax that came with aluminum rims, when he went to put them back on this spring one had a 6" split in it at the bead, after seeing this rim I would be staying away from the factory wheels. These rims are only used in the summer and the truck only has 145000 Km on it
As soon as I figure out how to post a picture I will put them on TDP
Good luck
Ron

[DmaxMaverick]

A buddy of mine has a 02 HD 2500 Dmax that came with aluminum rims, when he went to put them back on this spring one had a 6" split in it at the bead, after seeing this rim I would be staying away from the factory wheels. These rims are only used in the summer and the truck only has 145000 Km on it
As soon as I figure out how to post a picture I will put them on TDP
Good luck
Ron


That's a new one. I'd suspect the tire shop may have damaged it during a mounting, a mfg defect, or an overload situation. I surely wouldn't steer clear of them, because of this one incident, though. They are normally of very high quality. These wheels come in two flavors. The originals in 2001 and early 2002 were Alcoa. During 2002, IIRC, the mfg for the wheels was changed to "Made in Hungary", with no further mfg description. There's a pic of an Alcoa OEM label in my sig. link. If an Alcoa wheel did split, I'm sure they'd like to know about it. The Hungarians probably don't care.

[ronniejoe]

That's pretty clearly a problem from dismounting a tire. The older style pneumatic tire changers have a grip/hook/catch type device that catches under the edge of the rim. This secures the arm of the machine for when the wedge (?) moves in and pushes down to break the tire bead off the rim. If this arm isn't positioned correctly, the catch will put severe stress on the rim (Don't ask me how I know...:() and can bend or break the rim.

[Idle_Chatter]

I'm with RonnieJoe, that's an impact/push on the rim - not a "failure" which would never happen in a down and out direction without a powerful external force. I would steer away from that tire shop, not the rims. I have 8 in use for 6 years and have only heard of one that had a bona fide defect failure with a casting porosity issue in literally thousands that have been in use for 7 years.

[DmaxMaverick]

I submitted my reply before I saw the pics. I agree with RJ and IC. That's damage, and not a failure.

[Robyn]

That definately looks like damage from an tire machine.

I have usedaluminum wheels for years on a whole lot of rigs.
I have used then deep in the bush under severe conditions and have even been known to abuse them some.

Abuse generally does not look like that (driving abuse)

As RJ stated, the arm that pushes the tire off the bead may have been the culprit.

A sloppy worker thats not paying attention is most likely the case with this wheel.

It takes a fair bit to do that sort of damage.
The case here is that the rim is pushed away from the center. Damage from use generally does not do it this way.

Also it looks like the aluminum is "Burnished" and this makes me suspect that the damage was done with tools and not any defect or road hazard.


Robyn

[rustyk]

What does PYO mean?


"Pull Your Own" - you remove it/them.

[ronniejoe]

Well, I did some checking and am pretty sure that the wheels are the culprit. I scored some Duramax rims off of e-bay and just had some new tires mounted today. Initial test runs seem to say that my problem is gone. I will give it some time before completely declaring success. Here are some pictures of the new look. What do you think?

http://www.schoolcraftpowertrain.com/Pictures_&_Data/IM002412.jpg

http://www.schoolcraftpowertrain.com/Pictures_&_Data/IM002413.jpg

[GMC Hauler]

I see you are using the Silent Armours. I love mine. How do you like yours.

Rims look good, gives the suburban a new look!

[More Power]

Back in the 70's I bought a new Plymouth Satellite Sebring (an upscale Road Runner), and had the dealership exchange the tires/wheels with the Barracuda I was trading in. I had just put new tires on the Cuda, and wanted to keep them cuz they were better than the OE tires on the new car. The dealership swapped them.

Only later did I learn that they needed to "obtain" a new set of rims because the new car had front discs and the trade had front drums, and the rims wouldn't swap. The replacement rims probably came from a salvage yard.

Anyway, for the next 2-3 years, I fought wheel balance problems. I tried all sorts of gimmicky dynamic balancers and a few sets of tires, all to no avail.

Then one day a diligent tire shop spun the wheels by themselves.... They were all a little wobbly - not bad, but just a little..... So, I bought 4 new wheels, and the problem was - much to my relief - finally solved... I was so happy to have finally solved this chronic problem, and pissed that I got bent wheels with the new car.

Jim

[ronniejoe]

I see you are using the Silent Armours. I love mine. How do you like yours.

Rims look good, gives the suburban a new look!

Thanks! I just had the Silent Armors installed at 10:30 this morning, so not much time to evaluate. So far, I like them. I've been reading about them for about a year, so I've been looking forward to trying them.

[chickenhunterbob]

Those are very nice wheels, and tires too,

I have had my silent armours on for over 100,000 km now, have rotated them 9 times but probably will need a new set in the fall.

Depending on what you took off though, you may find them to have a little road noise, probably no more than any decent A/T tire would have, but somewhat more than a smooth tread design, they aren't really "silent".

They give superb traction on snow and ice though, I probably would not have believed just how good until I had them on myself.

[GMC Hauler]

They give superb traction on snow and ice though, I probably would not have believed just how good until I had them on myself.

I second that. I've been taking them through the CT winters and they are unstoppable!

[ronniejoe]

Made the run from Martinsville to Whitewater, WI to visit the in-laws for Memorial Day weekend. The vibration is still there, although not as bad as before. It seems to be coming from the right rear of the vehicle. Since this is an entirely different wheel/tire combination, it must be something else.

I replaced the brake drums some time ago in search of a solution to this problem. They're huge and imbalance in them could be the issue. I think I'm going to drag the originals out and have them check balanced at a tire shop. Maybe I can balance and turn them and solve this problem.:( I'm getting frustrated with this.

[Robyn]

RJ
The drums you got as replacements I assume were parts house items??

As you mentioned these are large drums and the aftermarket stuff may or may not have been ballanced properly

With the size of the drums,a fair amount of error in ballance could shake things real good.

A quicky Try swapping the drums from side to side in the back and see if the shake follows the drum from one side to the other.
If so you have your gremlin in hand.

If you raise the rig on a floor jack under the pumpkin until the wheels are a few inches off the ground, run the thing up to a safe speed and see if either tire/wheel assembly shakes.

A tire shop should be able to place that drum in a wheel ballancer by itself and tell you how far off it is and then mark the spot that needs weight.

Weld on a chunk of steel to do the trimming out of the ballance and your set.

I see drums all the time on the big trucks with weights welded on. ????????/


Best

Robyn

[6.5 Detroit Diesel]

Just curious as to how well this stuff works. I have the 36" Hummer tires. They are radials and impossible to balance in any way. When it gets hot, they basically conform to the rims and then they get "heavy" spots. When I drive at around 30-35 MPH, they can start shaking the whole truck. Once I hit cruising speeds there is no problem. The tire shops have tried conventional balancing with no luck. One tire had over 1 lb of weights put on in an attempt to balance it, with no luck.

[Robyn]

I use equal on the class 8 stuff on BIGGGGGGGGGg tires like the 385/65X22.5 and its marvelous.
I run equal on the #1 and #2 axle on the truck and the #1 axle on the trailer.

It adjusts as the tire wears or gets mud in the tread or ?????

Its better than sliced bread. :D

The only bitch is when you have to break the tire down to fix it. The stuff is a granular material and one needs to be careful and not get it in the bead when airing the tire back up.

We do it with the big tires and its tedious but doable.

The original session is done by adding the right size and or number of paper packets of equal to the tire before its inflated.
The packs break open and distribute once the wheel starts turning.


Best

Robyn

[Dimsdale]

There are also the Centramatic continuous wheel balancers, which seem to do what Equal does, but outside the tire.

They apparently have a set for Hummers, as well as dump trucks, school buses etc., but they do NOT fit under the PYOs (or didn't last time I looked).

www.centramatic.com

[Idle_Chatter]

There are also the Centramatic continuous wheel balancers, which seem to do what Equal does, but outside the tire.

They apparently have a set for Hummers, as well as dump trucks, school buses etc., but they do NOT fit under the PYOs (or didn't last time I looked).

www.centramatic.com

I've got a set of Centramatics. Don't use them any more, they were much less effective than the dynabeads I'm using now. They DO fit under PYOs, BUT, they space the rears out to where they become lug-centric versus hub-centric (raise wheel off the centerbore fit of the hub.) They also fit VERY tight with the front brake calipers and require an additional spacer to make clearance - making the fronts even more lug-centric than the rears. After several months, I found that brake pad wear had caused enough front caliper shift to cause the caliper to make contact with the centramatic and it was scoring it around the oil/granule filled balancing ring. I do not recommend them.

[JoeyD]

Most driveshaft shops can check the drum to see if they are out of round or even a machine shop that does engine balancing.
But the tires could still be suspect. I always run the wheel on the balancer to see if it's good then mount the tire and if it's not close to even dismount and spin it until I get it as close as I can. Takes time though. In the end go with the balance beads to keep a constant balance int he tires as they wear.