Looking for information on a Detroit 318.

[Lonesome7.3]

More than one diesel mechanic has recommended a 318 Detroit for a project I am accumulating parts for. Can anyone tell more about this engine? I have looked on Google, but I did not find much. I am looking for information on its size, weight, approximant dimensions, fuel delivery, and anything else that might be important to know. Oh yeah, and where would I find one? :confused:

[gophergunner]

Correct me if i'm wrong, but the "318 Detroit" is just a 6V-53.....right?

Old fire trucks tended to have those engines.

[Lonesome7.3]

I hope you are not asking me. I know nothing of these engines. I do not even know what they look like.

[gophergunner]

I hope you are not asking me. I know nothing of these engines. I do not even know what they look like.

Well all i know is the displacement of a 6V-53 is 318 cubic inches. So i'm just assuming when someone says "318 Detroit" they are actually talking about a 6V-53. So if you search for info on "6V-53 Detroit Diesels" you will have much more luck than "318 Detroit Diesels".

Sorry, my uncertain questions earlier was for anyone who could give me the confirmation that the 6V-53 is the same as a 318 Detroit.

Good luck though.

[Lonesome7.3]

Thanks, I will give that a shot.

[dieseldummy]

318 refers to the HP of the motor. It's the non turbo 8v-71. It was a very common motor in the '70's and '80's.

[Lonesome7.3]

What did they come in? Is it a V8?

[DmaxMaverick]

What did they come in? Is it a V8?

8V-71 = V-8 with 71 CID per cylinder, and 568 CID total. All Detroit 2 strokes are designated this way. A 6V-71 would be a V-6 of the same per cylinder displacement.

[Lonesome7.3]

8V-71 = V-8 with 71 CID per cylinder, and 568 CID total. All Detroit 2 strokes are designated this way. A 6V-71 would be a V-6 of the same per cylinder displacement.


Thanks. That is the kind of information I need. it give me a better understanding of what to look for. I sure do appreciate it.

[AVM62]

The question should be "what did they not come in". The Detroit Diesel 8V-71 powered everything but aircraft and cars. Here is a link to one powering a compressor.

"http://www.everythingdrilling.com/hammers/parts/hrp3.jpg"

[Lonesome7.3]

So it is a common engine. That is a good thing. The only problem is the size. It looks bigger than what I was thinking.

[DmaxMaverick]

Very popular, but they're not small (larger than large, by some standards). And not lightweight. For a pickup engine, a 6V-71 will fit with some serious shoehorning. A 6V-53 would be much more practical. It'll need some front suspension mod, though. We have a member who sent us a video of a 6V-91 installed in a Dodge Powerwagon. It needed a body lift. Something in the neighborhood of 18", IIRC. I'll dig up the link to the video. Very cool.

[Lonesome7.3]

I spoke to an old diesel mechanic that claims to have installed a "318 Detroit" in a pick up. Something that big, seems a little too wide andl ong. The truck I am planning this build for will have a heavily modified chassis. However, if the engine in the photograph is the engine I am asking about, I do not think it will fit inside the fedners. Not to mention the mods I was hoping to make to the engine itself.

[gophergunner]

Wow, was I way off I guess......

I was fairly positive that the 318 referred to displacement, which would equal a 6V-53. I'm not saying I'm correct in the matter, just that I've heard of a 6V-53 being referred to as a 318 before.

Ah well, learn something new each and every day..........:cool:

[convert2diesel]

If you are indeed building a heavily modified chassis, then take into account that the 6V-71 tips the scales at 2,800 lbs. The 8V-71 would be heavier yet, though I have heard that the 8V-71 was available in certain applications made out of aluminum. This was mostly for transit busses and certainly didn't put out 318HP.

Lots of the 6Vs available and it puts out 250HP and lots of torque (550 ft/lbs if my memory serves) but you are going to have to invest in a good pair of ear plugs and lots of drip pans. Known for leaking like they were mugged and the supercharger/turbos scream like a banshee.

Hope this helps

Bill

[Lonesome7.3]

The reason this engine appeals to be is because of the application in which I plan to use it. And, of coarse due mostly to what I was told by some diesel mechanics. What I want is an engine large enough and powerful enough to push this truck I am building and pull a trailer if I so decide down the high way at highway speeds. I also may enter it tug-o-war competitions. I am going to run heavy 52 inch Michelins and run 5 ton running rear. The truck is going to be heavy and far from practical. But it is something I have always wanted to build. Am I searching for the right engine for this application?

By the way, here is a picture of the truck I am using.

[DmaxMaverick]

With that drivetrain (and weight), traction won't be a problem. A big Detroit would be a fun project, but so would a Cat 3208 or a Cummins. The power potentials will be similar.

[AVM62]

It looks like the 6V-53 or 6V-53T would be just what you are looking for. I've seen pictures of them installed in old pickups, Google 6V-53 and see what pops up. As much as I like the 6V-71 and the 8V-71, I think they are too big and heavy for a pickup.

[Lonesome7.3]

A 3208 crossed my mind. I saw one in an 83 Ford. But it looks bigger then what I am searching for and the cost is higher. I have also looked at some Cummins options. But the inline designs are too long. That is why I am looking at V8 options. I forgot to mention, I also want something I can "enhance" Speed and power levels that seem hell sent is also part of my biuld plan.

[JeepSJ]

A 3208 crossed my mind. I saw one in an 83 Ford. But it looks bigger then what I am searching for and the cost is higher. I have also looked at some Cummins options. But the inline designs are too long. That is why I am looking at V8 options. I forgot to mention, I also want something I can "enhance" Speed and power levels that seem hell sent is also part of my biuld plan.

I've seen a Cummins 8bt stuffed into a Ford pickup. The 6v-53 would just be plain cool.

[Lonesome7.3]

Isn't a 6V a six cylinder? Would it put out the amount of power I am looking for?

[JeepSJ]

Isn't a 6V a six cylinder? Would it put out the amount of power I am looking for?

6 cyl, V configuration. It can put out big power.

[Lonesome7.3]

I have done a little research and I see what you mean. I even found some that are supercharged. If they can move a tracked armored vehicle, I am sure one would move this truck just fine.

[a5150nut]

I have done a little research and I see what you mean. I even found some that are supercharged. If they can move a tracked armored vehicle, I am sure one would move this truck just fine.


All of the ones I've seen were supercharged. The trick ones had turbos feeding the superchargers.

[Lonesome7.3]

All of the ones I've seen were supercharged. The trick ones had turbos feeding the superchargers.

That is exaclty what I have in mind.;)

[DmaxMaverick]

A Detroit N/A is only supercharged. Add a turbo, injectors and a HP pump and you can make some serious power. The injectors and pump are off-the-shelf items. There is a pretty large selection of turbos, or you can work in your own configuration. They're not too picky. The "marine" spec upgrades are high performance. The high volume water pump and a really big radiator is highly recommended for any extended use at the higher power levels. Robyn has some experience with these, as well.

[Lonesome7.3]

Okay, I think a V-six configuration appears to be my best bet. Especially now that I see how easy it will be to enhance. Now, what are the differences between the 6v-53, 6V-71, and 6V-91? If I understand what I have read so far the 53, 71, and 91 is cubic inches of displacement per cylinder, am I correct on that? If so, does that mean there is a significant bock size difference, or does it have to do with the bore and stroke?

[Lonesome7.3]

A Detroit N/A is only supercharged. Add a turbo, injectors and a HP pump and you can make some serious power. The injectors and pump are off-the-shelf items. There is a pretty large selection of turbos, or you can work in your own configuration. They're not too picky. The "marine" spec upgrades are high performance. The high volume water pump and a really big radiator is highly recommended for any extended use at the higher power levels. Robyn has some experience with these, as well.

What does N/A mean? Is that the engine family?

[DmaxMaverick]

What does N/A mean? Is that the engine family?
"Natural Aspiration"

On a 4 stroke Diesel (or gasser, for that matter), it means no charge air compression. The 2 strokes don't pump their own air at low speeds, and are very inefficient at higher speeds, so they need a little help to clear exhaust gasses and fill the cylinder with fresh air. An engine driven supercharger is good for this, because its output is proportionate to the engine speed. It's the nature of the design and function. Remember, 2 strokes fire on every revolution, whereas the 4 strokes fire every 2. The difference is how the exhaust gasses are expelled and fresh air is taken in. The 2 stroke does both at the bottom of the stroke, every time. Unlike gasser 2 strokes (like motorcycles, chainsaws, etc.), a Diesel 2 stroke has an exhaust valve, like the 4 stroke, but does not have an intake valve. The fresh air charge is ported, like 2 stroke gassers. All of this is what makes that unique Detroit Diesel sound.

The different jug size will effect engine weight dramatically. The blocks are sized according to the cylinder displacement, and more cylinders is more weight. They are very heavy to start with. Even a 4V is a heavy engine. Some of these configurations are available with aluminum blocks, which helps, but are still very heavy. These are "industrial application" engines, with no real "consumer grade" or "leisure" designs. Their power to weight ratios are still very respectable, and their power range is wider than traditional Diesel engines.

BTW......
They leak if you let them, but don't have to. As with any engine, proper assembly and maintenance will keep them as leak free as any engine can be. They are infamous for being a leaky, messy engine, but usually, those are very high use with little proper maintenance. When they run, they run well and do it for a very long time with little attention.

[Lonesome7.3]

thank you so much for that explaination. I have learned a lot from this thread. I am pretty sure I am going with a 6V53. Now I just have to decide on a transmission. Oh yeah, I will also have a LOT of questions when it comes time to soup it up.

[DmaxMaverick]

Oh, yeah! The tranny. Choose wisely. They can be very tough on them.

If you are serious about going this route, you can purchase a retired bus or other vehicle for cheap (relatively). This approach will be sure to include everything you need for a conversion, leaving only the conversion process. Mixing/matching engine and tranny has its own issues. And, if you choose wrong, can be very costly, not to mention very inconvenient.

[Lonesome7.3]

Oh, yeah! The tranny. Choose wisely. They can be very tough on them.

If you are serious about going this route, you can purchase a retired bus or other vehicle for cheap (relatively). This approach will be sure to include everything you need for a conversion, leaving only the conversion process. Mixing/matching engine and tranny has its own issues. And, if you choose wrong, can be very costly, not to mention very inconvenient.

Man you hit the nail on the head there. I completely agree with you. I think the trick will be locating a vehicle that has everything I am looking for. Like should I not be looking for some specific block numbers?

[a5150nut]

thank you so much for that explaination. I have learned a lot from this thread. I am pretty sure I am going with a 6V53. Now I just have to decide on a transmission. Oh yeah, I will also have a LOT of questions when it comes time to soup it up.

I ran a TS 24 Yuclid Scraper, had 8V71 front and In line 671 in the rear. The mechanic tricked it out for me by using 871 liners in the 671. The exhaust ports are in the skirt of the liner and the 871 ports are almost twice as big, more flow. He also set the cam up to the second setting.

[Lonesome7.3]

I ran a TS 24 Yuclid Scraper, had 8V71 front and In line 671 in the rear. The mechanic tricked it out for me by using 871 liners in the 671. The exhaust ports are in the skirt of the liner and the 871 ports are almost twice as big, more flow. He also set the cam up to the second setting.

Thanks. That sounds pretty damn cool. I will start a word document and make a list of suggestions like this. What kind of gains did you notice?

[steponmebbbboom]

what he's talking about is oval port liners versus figure eight port liners. the figure eights are larger than the ovals. cam profiles, injectors, even head design (2 exhaust valve versus 4 valves per cylinder) can also be played with. it is important to note that turbocharged engines have smaller compression ratios and piston+ring designs for these are different, among other subtle variations.

the thing i love most about the detroits (besides the sound) are how adaptable they are. you can tailor this engine to fit the weirdest applications.

also note, with an on-highway vehicle you are best using a min-max governor. you dont want to buy a surplus generator engine and try hooking a throttle pedal up to a woodward isochronous governor, for example. you want a torque rise to deal with pulling loads up hills.

[a5150nut]

what he's talking about is oval port liners versus figure eight port liners. the figure eights are larger than the ovals. cam profiles, injectors, even head design (2 exhaust valve versus 4 valves per cylinder) can also be played with. it is important to note that turbocharged engines have smaller compression ratios and piston+ring designs for these are different, among other subtle variations.

the thing i love most about the Detroit's (besides the sound) are how adaptable they are. you can tailor this engine to fit the weirdest applications.

On the Detroit's, the exhaust ports are in the liners on the 2 strokes, valves are intake.

And for adaptability, the 671 came in 9 different configurations not counting left / right rotation. In some of the old buses they laid on their side.

[Lonesome7.3]

Thank you both for those explanations. I have been learning a lot lately about this engine and I am still seriously considering it for this build. My only problem is that I will have a lot of mistakes to make before I find the right combination of performance parts and or upgrades.

[steponmebbbboom]

On the Detroit's, the exhaust ports are in the liners on the 2 strokes, valves are intake.

That is incorrect.

The blower (supercharger) on the side of the engine blows air into the airbox, where the liner ports are located. (airbox drains are provided here to prevent accumulation of lubricating oil, which could be aspirated through the liner ports and burn which would cause uncontrolled engine acceleration.) Air enters the chamber through the liner ports when the piston is at the bottom of its stroke. Spent exhaust gases are blown upward into the open exhaust valves and out through the exhaust system. The fresh air is then compressed and the injector sprays fuel near the top of the stroke, where it is ignited by compression heat and forces the piston down, where the exhaust valves at the top of the chamber open up and allow the blower to force air to circulate again to clear the chamber of spent exhaust gases. The liner ports are the point of origin. The blower is on the side of the engine. Consult the service manual for additional clarification.

[steponmebbbboom]

image courtesy detroit diesel corporation

[Lonesome7.3]

I love learning about this stuff! Thank you for that clarification and the illustrations.

[gophergunner]

Seems like such old technology, yet proven to be reliable and long lasting.

On a side note, is there any other engine out there that can rev itself to death by accident?

[Lonesome7.3]

Is that possible?

[DmaxMaverick]

Seems like such old technology, yet proven to be reliable and long lasting.

On a side note, is there any other engine out there that can rev itself to death by accident?


Yep. All of them.

[steponmebbbboom]

when the cat 3208s run away they can actually break apart violently. but yes, all diesels can run-away especially if the turbo seals leak on the intake side.

detroits are notorious for running away because the fuel governor assembly needs to be adjusted on a regular basis and if done incorrectly, will lock up in full rack position, causing the engine to rev up at a rapid rate until it is destroyed. the only way to stop a run-away is by closing the emergency stop flapper installed on some models, which closes a plate over the blower intake. however, doing this will suck the seals out of the blower impeller shafts. another option is to use a large co2 extinguisher to deprive the engine of oxygen. if it runs out before the engine stops, it will run-away again.

[AKMark]

Having a manual fuel cut off helps in those instances as well.

[steponmebbbboom]

how?

the injectors are cam-actuated. the rail pump is positive displacement and even if its output is diverted to the return line thered be enough fuel left in the rail to cause engine damage.

[steponmebbbboom]

again ctsy of detroit diesel

[Lonesome7.3]

Well, that is scary as hell.

[steponmebbbboom]

well so is getting into an accident in a classic car, thankfully that doesnt muzzle antique car enthusiasts any; and two-stroke detroits have been in use around the world for over 60 years, just like anything else read the manual before turning a wrench on one.

[Lonesome7.3]

It will not slow me down at all. I just never heard of it. Who does put out a good all inclusive manuel for thet engine?

[gophergunner]

Well this thread has been very informative so far. I've never actually heard of a Cat diesel revving itself to death before, or any other diesel (aside from detroit) for that matter.

Thats always good to know, and might quiet some people down when they try to make fun of the old Detroits for being able to run away on themselves.

Still wouldn't stop me from having one in a pickup truck though...

[Lonesome7.3]

Well this thread has been very informative so far. I've never actually heard of a Cat diesel revving itself to death before, or any other diesel (aside from detroit) for that matter.

Thats always good to know, and might quiet some people down when they try to make fun of the old Detroits for being able to run away on themselves.

Still wouldn't stop me from having one in a pickup truck though...

I agree, I have learned a ot.

[AKMark]

how?

the injectors are cam-actuated. the rail pump is positive displacement and even if its output is diverted to the return line thered be enough fuel left in the rail to cause engine damage.

I was referring to Diesel's in general. I had a cut off on a 6.2L I ran years ago. I pulled the handle when something in the IP failed causing it to run wild. Luckily a half mile of open road, and a sore hand (from pulling the T-handle as hard as I could) and it finally quit. Luckily I was only going about 20 mph when I lifted my foot and it kept going. Stopped it before I got over 60 mph.

[steponmebbbboom]

It will not slow me down at all. I just never heard of it. Who does put out a good all inclusive manuel for thet engine?

out of all the material ive seen written on those engines, the manufacturer's service manual is still the best. The big three generally make very good and easy-to-read manuals, but detroit and any older GM passenger car/ld/md truck service manuals are very descriptive not only in terms of product specific information, but general information that explains to the layman why they need to do this or that.

Reading a GM service manual is very educational and in my college program, the series V-71 manual was actually one of the textbooks for my engines class. it's well worth buying one, in fact there are numerous vendors selling the detroit manuals in CD-ROM form in the usual places like eBay, etc.

[Lonesome7.3]

Thanks. I will try and get one and read up on them while I am over here.




out of all the material ive seen written on those engines, the manufacturer's service manual is still the best. The big three generally make very good and easy-to-read manuals, but detroit and any older GM passenger car/ld/md truck service manuals are very descriptive not only in terms of product specific information, but general information that explains to the layman why they need to do this or that.

Reading a GM service manual is very educational and in my college program, the series V-71 manual was actually one of the textbooks for my engines class. it's well worth buying one, in fact there are numerous vendors selling the detroit manuals in CD-ROM form in the usual places like eBay, etc.

[rustyk]

Somehow I missed this post. I'll add what I can. The "318" in the late '60s-early '70s was the straight 6-71 NA, with IIRC, the 65 injectors rated at 318 HP. This uprating was relatively new at the time (normal rating was ~290HP with 60 injectors). Many issues revealed themselves with this uprating, including (especially) ringbelt deposits.

A big flail ensued pitting GM against the oil manufacturers (at the time I was a field engineer for Shell); GM claimed that the ash content (at the time barium and calcium ashes were major detergent-dispersants) was the culprit. GM subsequently specified low-ash (<1.0%) oils for the entire series - all the -71s and -53s, turbo or NA; the -92s weren't yet made. BTW, typical change intervals for OTR tractors was then about 24K miles.

A side note: GM/Detroit Diesel took a big PR hit due to the 318s, regardless of the cause of the issues. One of my customers was a DD dealer, and he called me one afternoon, saying, "Rusty, I have something you should see!"

Since Don's place was only 20 minutes from my office (some of my customers were 10 hours and more), I obliged. Arriving at his shop, he showed me a DD poster he had just received, and the main theme was that DD called the 318 "The Cool One". This was interesting, so I asked him what GM/DD had done - bigger water pumps, wider cooling passages, larger radiators, what? He said, "You're lookin' at it!"

I couldn't see anything. So I asked, "What am I missing? I see nothing different."

He said, "The POSTER. That's what they've done to solve the problem - they're now calling it 'The Cool One'."

[Lonesome7.3]

That was pretty interesting. I love learning little pieces of history when it comes to this sort of subject matter.

Overall what is your take on using a Detroit for this build?

[rustyk]

The DDs are well sorted out - there shouldn't be any latent design defects. They tend to be a bit less economical than the equivalent 4-stroke cycle engines, and the 2-stroke cycle tends to lead to shortened TBO, but they're simple and reliable. On a power-to-weight ratio, they lead the diesel pack, but frankly, I'm unfamiliar with the 3-53, as my only hands-on experience (as a ship's Chief Engineer) was with the 4-53s - they were just fine, although mine had HP air starters, which were a PITA - and the Rootes blowers didn't do well in the marine environment (but that's common among the -53s and -71s). None failed, but they wanted to.

My take is that you'll end up with an unusual unit, but not one that'll suck the doors off others.

[Lonesome7.3]

Thanks. That is some good information.

I sure would like to locate one of those posters.

[HB of CJ]

You are going to stuff a BIG Detroit into WHAT???? Sounds OK to me. We used to put 353 and 453 Detroits into Ford Pickups and One Tons way back in the middle 1970's. Ancient history, but then again I'm ancient.

The slange language can get kinda confusing. There were two (2) 318's. Ninety percent of the time they mean the ''318" 8V71N heavy truck engine of years past. Big, heavy (2750 pounds) and had a gross rating of 318 hp.

The other "318" was the 6V53N which had 318 cubic inches. Smaller, lighter (1650 pounds) and put out about 210 hp and 420 torque. Different engine. Also related, different versions of the same mill SOMETIMES...

...were called the same thing. Depends. There were also turbo versions for all sorts of applications. Even the 707 Jet years ago toyed with an aluminum Detroit as a APU. (aux. power unit) Ran on jet fuel.

I really wanna put ANOTHER 353 Detroit into a Pickup Truck. This time a 1978 Chevy. Not for the power it doesn't have, but because I want to put a Jake Brake on it. That would be cool. HB of CJ :) :) :)

[Lonesome7.3]

Would you happen to have any photographs of those conversions? I would love to see how they turned out.

[gophergunner]

I'm still wanting to toss a 6V53 into a GMC pickup.......the thought is always rattling around in my head, but my bank account has limits and so does my free time.

Too many "wants"..............:rolleyes:

[Lonesome7.3]

Does any one have photographs of a 6V53?

[AVM62]

I have some but , when I tried to upload, I got a message saying the files were too large.

[DmaxMaverick]

I have some but , when I tried to upload, I got a message saying the files were too large.

Upload them to your Photo Album (http://www.thedieselpageforums.com/photopost/index.php) account, then link them into the post. The size limitations are much more flexible.

[AVM62]

I hope this works.

[AVM62]

"Upload them to your Photo Album account, then link them into the post. The size limitations are much more flexible."

Thanks. I got the photo's uploaded to my album account. But I don't know how to link them to here.

[DmaxMaverick]

"Upload them to your Photo Album account, then link them into the post. The size limitations are much more flexible."

Thanks. I got the photo's uploaded to my album account. But I don't know how to link them to here.

Looks like you did just fine. I'm not sure why they don't always display inline. I suspect it has something to do with the original pic's compression rate (jpeg attributes).

[AVM62]

Could it be because I'm on a mac?

[DmaxMaverick]

Could it be because I'm on a mac?

Possibly. But it also happens from my, and others, PC's. I suspect it's more basic than that. Such as the original source, the camera, scanner or editing software, or as it is archived into our system. I haven't looked into it.

[Lonesome7.3]

Thanks. That does look as though it would fit nicely in a pick up trucj frame. What are some benefits to running it over a 6.5?

[AVM62]

It may last longer and, cause you to loose your hearing faster, and it would be so cool!!!

[DmaxMaverick]

Yeah. Don't discount the cool factor. A lot of really stupid ideas can be justified by cool (don't read too much into that). I'd do it. And, I just may.

[Lonesome7.3]

Cool factor is a driving force in some of my biulds. What kind mileage and power output would I get with one in a pick up?

[gophergunner]

Someone once informed me that a 6V-53 isn't much larger than a fully dressed 454. So in other words they should squeeze under the hood of a pickup truck nicely......

Some guys did it to a Ford.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VkZjr0IJwtg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OHcmdPsvEFw

[Robyn]

Just reading through this thread

The "318" or 8V71 is a monster and will fill the area between the frame rails on a Peterbilt just dandy. The weigh far too much for a pickup
Even the 6V71 is huge

The 92 series is basically the same engine just a little more cubes.

The little 53 series might not be a bad choice for a project.
The 3208 Cat has found itself stuffed into a few pickups. (been there done that) too heavy though.

The neatest choice for a non GM engine would be the 4BT cummins.

These fit nice and they are plentiful. (little bread trucks, delivery vans etc.)

Have fun

Robyn

[Lonesome7.3]

Now that I am home I can watch You Tube videos. They were cool and gave me a better idea as to what is involved.

I like 4BT's. I have plans for one in the future.

[6.5NOVA]

This is a nice thread,

here is a video from my Dodge w200 6V-92 Detroit-Diesel


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-YFSqa7-GQ


I have put a lot video`s with Detroit engines on youtube, When you clik on Dodgedetroit in the a bove video you wil see all video`s.

[Lonesome7.3]

I wish I could view You Tube videos over here. You all have got me wanting to biuld several Detroit powered projects now.

[Chief919]

The 6V53 is what powers the M113 family of vehicles, supercharged in the A2 and turbocharged in the A3. You can actually download all the manual for them from the LOGSA website with your AKO login.

[Lonesome7.3]

I did not know that. I thought they had a Cummins in them.