View Full Version : Cold weather and smoke when starting
Seems every winter for about the last three or four winters I have this problem then the weather gets warmer and the problem goes away and I forget about it till next winter. It's the dreaded smoking and chugging when starting cold. I have noticed something different this year though that may shed some light on the problem if I only knew how to read it but I don't know that much about the 6.5. I have changed the injector pump the injectors glow plugs and glow plug controller all within the last 2500 miles. The reason was to try and get rid of the excessive smoke and chugging at cold start. This year I tried starting without depressing the accelerator prior to starting. It actually starts better this way but as soon as you depress the accelerator it actually runs rougher for a little while then clears out. I feel sure it is a sensor or something but I don't know which or where it is. The truck runs great after you get it going and even if you plug it in and let it heat it starts perfect. But it use to start the same way cold. The truck is a 1992 2500 6.5 with 131,000. Serviced regularly, motor seems to be in great shape. I have owned the truck since '96 and it had 80,000 on it when I bought it. Sure would appreciate some help to get rid of this smoke. Also if it makes any difference it doesn't use oil so the smoke is not oil smoke.
Thanks in advance for any help. Eddie
This is a complete WAG, but I've had a similar issue with the AMG 6.5L TD in my motorhome and the 6.9L NA in my Ford van.
The problem with the 6.5 - after replacing glow plugs (which were from the original engine, so they needed it), controller, and lift pump (which also was bad) - the culprit was ugly battery grounds on the engine.
The Ford's 6.9 had similar symptoms, but the problem with it was the injector return lines' sucking air when the engine stopped.
DennisG01
02-07-2009, 09:46
Even though you replaced the glow plugs recently, I'd still check them out - especially if you replaced them with the "quick heat" type. Checking the plugs is always a good place to start. One or two bad plugs can give the exact symptoms you are talking about.
Actually I have had this problem even since I replaced all this equiptment I for got to state this in the original post also I replaced both batteries at the same time as the rest of the work. I know there are a couple of sensors in the block that help control this stuff and I wonder if it would be cheaper to just replace these and see if it will help. I took the truck to a shop that was suppose to really good on these engines after installing all the new parts because I was told it was probably sitll in the pump but they checked it out and said the pump was good the next thing he was wanting to check was compression . I amy be wrong but I don't think this is the culprit because of the way the truck runs the fact it doesn't use oil and it runs great if you either use the block heate or if the tempature is decent. It's only when it is really cold. I espically think the deal with the acting up when you hit the accelerator after starting instead of before is a key to what's causing the problem I just don't know which sensor would have something to do with this.I do appreciate your efforts to help. Anyone else got any suggestions?
Thanks, Eddie
diesel65
02-08-2009, 10:48
Check your injectors, I just went through the same problem your having.
I was able to find the bad injector and swap it with a used unit to buy me time till spring when I need a new set
I have 131k miles on my truck.
Pull your cross over pipe, with the truck cold have someone start it and see which bank is smoking. After you isolate which bank is misfiring then each day crack a injector line to see which injector is not contributing causing the white smoke.
I was lucky that it was the drivers side to crack the lines.
You might want to check out your lift pump circuit. The lift pump should start working when you turn your key to the crank engine position. If it isn't working then your engine will do exactly what you are describing untill your OPS has enough pressure to start the lift pump working. When it's cold the fuel is thicker so if your not using a good diesel additive you should consider it.
Where would you need to check at the pump or at the oil pressure switch? I noticed in the troubleshooting guide it gives a part # pn-10243574 do these either work or not or can they sometimes not work just at cold start? Also what about the sensor at the rear of the head on the passenger side and also the one that is center in front I think the one in front has something to do with advancing the timing for cold start. I'm not sure about the one at the back on the passenger side any ideas if this could be a culprit for this problem or not. What do you think?
john8662
02-09-2009, 22:12
Check for any diesel fuel leaks, if you smell diesel fuel smell under the hood, chances are you have a small leak, which lets some air into the system. This is especially obvious in the cold.
Ditto on the holding the petal. The mechanical injection pumps (like your 1992 and all 6.2's) don't start the engine as well as the later electronic pumps. The best way to start is to turn the key on (glow plugs on) push the petal half way and release (enables the fast idle solenoid to hold throttle), you'll feel a slight click on your foot. The light goes out, crank it till it's running. If it misses a little bit just let it finish and it'll smooth out. Seems that when you give it more fuel it just seems to put out the fire a little bit. If it starts then dies, turn the key off, wait 30 seconds, repeat the process above (including the petal part).
As mentioned above worn injectors (any with over 100k miles on them) and any air leaks in the system, or a failing or non-functional lift pump will hurt starting performance.
J
With 131K on the beast the timing chain is going to have some wear.
The IP timing is going to be lagging a bit.
If you loosen the three nuts on the IP and advance it about the width of the scribe line on the housing (Maybe a tad more) your issue may resolve itself.
With new injectors/plugs and IP you should see a good running engine.
With timing slow these little critters can get very smokey at cold start and also will be a tad sluggish even warmed up.
You can lose 3-5 degrees of timing easily with a badly worn chain.
Now this said, a fresh chain is "Usually" all thats needed to bring things right up to snuff.
I have had several engines apart that although they had a Bazillion miles the sprockets were fine and just the chain had stretched.
You can replace the chain of a warm Saturday without too much bother.
Yank the accessories, water pump and the front cover.
Be careful of the pan seal area and clean and regoop it well with silicone after replacing the chain.
Best
RC
Just to add my $0.02, I think this is normal 6.5TD response to cold weather. Our Suburban starts wonderfully when warm and when plugged in, but when cold the 6.5 is known to clatter a lot and will smoke. In fact, any diesel when cold (usually below 20F anyway and for sure below 0F) will not run well until it warms up a bit. I had my truck starting at -30F with a dead block heater and she clattered something awful and I was afraid the smoke would choke my neighbor out of his house but once it warmed up she ran fine. There are others plenty more knowledgeable about these engines on this board and they may chime in as well.
Our 94 Burb 6.5 will bang right off even at temps in the teens.
Small puff of smoke just as it fires off and then the stack clears out.
If you are getting clouds of white to blus smoke there is likely an issue with glow plugs, injectors and or other issues.
RC
In the teens I don't notice much at all except as Robyn mentioned. However, I have noticed the colder it gets the longer it takes for that smoke to disappear but usually the smoke clears up in under a minute even at -30F, takes a little bit longer for the engine to want to run smoothly with throttle at -30F though.
Thanks for the ideas I'll do some checking and see if one of these will clear up the smoke.It could be a lot worse so may just learn to live with it!
Thanks again, Eddie
I did the glow plug over ride several years ago and found that with the new plug you get more smoke, but when I push the button and let those quick heat heat up good and long I get minimal smoke. If It does smoke a bit just push the button and the smoke goes away.:D
DennisG01
02-17-2009, 11:43
I did the glow plug over ride several years ago and found that with the new plug you get more smoke, but when I push the button and let those quick heat heat up good and long I get minimal smoke. If It does smoke a bit just push the button and the smoke goes away.:D
I wish there was a way to do this with an OBII! :(
SmithvilleD
02-17-2009, 16:26
Does the PCM throw a code if the OEM glow plug relay is activated manually?
If that's a problem, couldn't you set up a separate relay to independently power the glow plugs with a push button?
I'd think the very common Ford starter relay would handle that amperage load OK. The same relay type that Robin suggested on the recent starter thread.
Hey EEMBRY
Has your truck every given you grief when it's hot and you shut it off for 15 - 20 mins. and try to restart it? Is it hard to start or it won't even start? If this has happened it could be a sign the IP is getting weak. This could also contribute to excess smoke when cold temps are happening.
Never any problems when warm or hot only cold.
DennisG01
02-18-2009, 06:27
sorry about the hijack, eembry - i'll start another thread. :)
Does the PCM throw a code if the OEM glow plug relay is activated manually?
The PCM gets upset if it sees power to the glow plugs when it's not expecting it, or when it doesn't see power and it is expecting it. I think all years monitor the same line that powers the wait to start light. I suppose you couldisolate that, but a separate relay by itself would not do the trick.
Well I changed the fast idle a little to the fast side and thought I would see if it made any difference. Also changed the fuel filter. If I don't depress the accelerator it's not too bad with the smoke but if I depress the accelerator to set the advance and the fast idle look out it is smoke city. This has to give someone a clue as to what's going on here. I started to advance the timing a little to see if that would help but if when you depress the accelerator advances the timing and that makes the smoke worse would it be the same if you manually advance the timing or is it a different situation? I'm confused. I still think it is something simple because the truck runs too well and starts too well under warmer conditions. Could there be anything in the wiring harness that could be breaking down? What do you think?
Eddie
I am suspect of the injector pop pressure being too low and the spray pattern being poor.
How many miles on the squirts??
Were these rebuilts or >>>?????
The issue of more smoke with throttle is about right as the amount of fuel increases too, hence more smoke..
What was the POP pressure set to??
Have you turned the IP slightly to advance the timing a tad ??
RC
midniteplowboyy
02-21-2009, 14:08
Is your cold idle/advance switch working? You should have 12v to the cold advance solenoid and high idle solenoid when engine temp is below 100ºF with ign sw on. If you have power, check to see if the advance solenoid clicks when you remove/apply power(might be a low voltage problem also).
I think it is in your cold advance system. Its been awhile since I had the top off of one of them, IIRC the advance solenoid restricts the fuel return outlet on the top of the pump, you might unscrew the return nipple and see if you notice anything wrong(seams like it has a pressure relief valve in it for when the solenoid has the main return blocked).
My 93, when the temp switch was bad, it would miss and blow alot of fuel smoke, untill it gradually warmed up. My 92 is a different animal though, it still cranks good without it, I think it works now(got me wondering, I'll have to check). 6.5's are like people, there's no two the same and they got there own personality.
Robyn, I replaced the injectors with oem gm new injectors about three thousand miles ago.I don't know what the POP pressure you are referring to even is much less what it is set at,sorry. I looked at the IP but didn't move it. It was already right of the factory mark so I thought maybe it had already been moved. Also I need to get a different wrench to loosen the bolts boy are they TIGHT! All I had was a regular length end wrench what do you use to get those things loose? Kinda close quarters unless you take a lot of stuff off to get to them. As far as the temp swith plowboy is referring to I have not checked any of that stuff but guess I need to. I really don't know what all I need to check and what it is suppose to check anyway. Guess I need to try and find a book but even then don't know what all intersects with what. I really appreciate all the help I would love to get this problem solved wish some of you were closer so we could get together and scratch our heads over this. I know some of you would figure it out as you know a whole lot more about these engines than I do! Anyway don't give up on me I will try whatever I need to just stay with me. Thanks, Eddie
BamaChief600
02-21-2009, 17:58
So does the cold idle/advance need a full 12v? I have about 10v and I get alot of smoke and rough idling. It clears up when it gets warm. I know I need glow plugs and injectors as they are original.
They're solenoids, so either they pull in or not. So, 10 volts is probably enough, but I'd be curious why it's not higher.
midniteplowboyy
02-23-2009, 19:19
They're solenoids, so either they pull in or not. So, 10 volts is probably enough, but I'd be curious why it's not higher.
I'd think it should be within 0.5v of battery voltage, if not I'd try to find the voltage drop. I think 10v would be sufficent though.
BamaChief600
03-02-2009, 19:34
Well I looked at the connector on the coolent sensor and they are gummed up with old caked oil so cleaned them up and the sensor is bad. Oreillys,auto zone or advance had no such sensor. Anyone have a parts #? Its not the one on the block but the one on the coolant cross over pipe.
midniteplowboyy
03-02-2009, 21:58
Here's the P/N for that cold start switch for you 1992 and 1993 guys.
GM/AC-Delco P/N 10154649
HTH,
Hooray! I finally got the truck starting without the smoke, only problem I'm not sure which cured it. I went over all the glow plugs and checked to make sure they were not burnt out, noticed some of the spayed connectors were not really all that tite so I pulled them all off tightned them up as best I could and put some electrical grease on each of them so they would make contact. I also went ahead and changed the oil pressure switch which I had changed not all that long ago. When I finished and started it ,just like it was suppose to start hardly any smoke and smooth like it was suppose to be. I don't know which did it but I am a happy camper as I have been fooling with this thing for a couple of winters trying to get it figured out. Thanks to each one of you for your suggestions and for helping me out. This is a great board and it is so hard in my area to find anyone that is very good on troubleshooting problems on the 6.5's. Everyone wants to tell you it's the Injector pump no matter what your problem is. So I appreciate this board very much. Thanks again, Eddie
Often the connectors can get slightly corroded as well as loose and with the glow plugs,can cause poor heating or some to not work at all.
This is usually not an issue when the weather is warm.
The engine can start as long as it has a few plugs that are getting hot and as soon as the RPM comes up the compression temp will get the fire lit in the rest but you get the smokey Joe's while it's doing it.
Glad to hear the little creature is working well again.
Best
Robyn
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions Inc. All rights reserved.