View Full Version : How to set the time a 1993 engine to a new ip
bigredtruck
09-06-2010, 17:22
I have installed a new ip the way gm manual said to and no start I have tried everything I advanced the timing retarded the timing and still the same thing now I didnt move more than a 1/6th as I didnt want to cause damage to the pump or engine. I have been reading were people are having to set the timing to the new pump.so does anybody know how to do this on a 1993 thanks:(
93GMCSierra
09-06-2010, 19:59
Did you crack the fuel line at a few injectors to bleed air out?
I am not an expert, though I did replace the IP in my old 93, IP timing is set by turning the ip, advance is toward the drivers side. Check to make sure your getting fuel to the filter, lift pump working correctly. if you get fuel at the filter crack open the lines at the injector so it can bleed air out between filter and injectors, when you have no more air if it does not fire make sure you lined the IP pully up correctly.
Yukon6.2
09-07-2010, 07:53
Hi
Where did you get your IP? The first IP i changed on my truck was one i got off eBay,turned out to be a military IP with a 24 volt fuel shutoff.I was starting to worry that it wouldn't start:eek:.Then i found out i had to switch the fuel shutoff,problem solved.
These IP's are simple to change,probly just airlocked unless you have other issues.Like wrong or falty fuel shutoff,unknown histoty of pump like used,rebuilt untested,ect.
Do some reading using the search feature,you can find all the info you will need.
Don't give up on your truck,the 93 year is the last of the mechanical IP's lots of people would love to have it over the electronic yrs.
Good Luck
Thomas
bigredtruck
09-08-2010, 02:43
yes I did bleed the fuel lines I just removed all the glow plugs and turned over till fuel came out each of the cylinders and fuel came out of the drain line.I did try advancing the ip but still the same and I am getting fuel to the filter I did get the pump from eBay (hector with injectors)I will have to do the research on the military ip other than that I'm lost have no idea what to do:confused:
If you got fuel out of the cylinders as you describe I doubt that the ESO solenoid is your problem.
Are your glow plugs installed and working?
What shape is your timing chain in? If the timing chain is worn out and jumped a tooth or teeth you won't have proper timing events or compression.
Have you done a compression test?
The 95 IP has two weak points, the FSD and the optic sensor. What would be the concensus (if possible) on the following options: 1. Clean out the fuel system (regardless), 2 replace the Optic sensor, trouble shoot the IP and FSD OR 3. Replace the electronic IP with a mechanical IP and install the fuel control cable?
I'm looking to reduce future potential problems. It appears to me that the mechanical IP has fewer shortcomings and is more reliable.
Thanks,
forbey
The 95 IP has two weak points, the FSD and the optic sensor. What would be the concensus (if possible) on the following options: 1. Clean out the fuel system (regardless), 2 replace the Optic sensor, trouble shoot the IP and FSD OR 3. Replace the electronic IP with a mechanical IP and install the fuel control cable?
I'm looking to reduce future potential problems. It appears to me that the mechanical IP has fewer shortcomings and is more reliable.
Thanks,
forbey
I agree with your points but the OP is asking about a 93 IP which is mechanical.
Or are you trying to start a new thread within a thread?(its discouraged)
I agree with your points but the OP is asking about a 93 IP which is mechanical.
Or are you trying to start a new thread within a thread?(its discouraged)
OOPS! I carried a thought from my compatability thread over into a point made here and just added my question!
forbey
bigredtruck
09-09-2010, 02:44
So I did check my timing chain and I did notice the balancer would move 1/8 to 1/4 before the chain ever moved so I went down to the parts store and pick up a new chain and gears cloyes brand my block is a 2000 model block.i did notice on the new gear set that there were no timing marks on the gears is this right I haven't torn mine down yet to see if mine have any marks or not The gear that bolts to the outside do have the marks i will just have to take apart and see.Now I'm assuming all I will have to do is bring the #1 up on the compression stroke and then reinstall the gears and chain.I thought I would take the valve cover off also and make sure the valves are closed just to be safe so is this the right way to do this or is there another way thanks Ronnie
bigredtruck
09-12-2010, 22:23
well took everything apart today and double checked to make sure everything was ok and it was I did replace the timing chain while apart I didnt really think that was the problem and it wasnt I got everything back together and tried again to start still the same thing I did set fire to the starter I know I shouldnt have cranked so much but It almost started fired once then nothing still no glow plugs controller seems to be working it will click when key is turned on no light on inside either nothing else really to do here I have no idea what to do with this thing well I guess I might buy another starter and try again I dont know I have tried everything I know to do not looking like this truck will be back on the road..............:(:mad::(:mad:
DmaxMaverick
09-12-2010, 23:07
You've been messing with this for too long. The sad part is, it's likely something just too simple.
Doesn't sound to me like you are getting heat to the plugs. Before you do ANYTHING else, make sure the plugs are actually heating. Just because the GP controller clicks doesn't mean it is heating the plugs. Verify. Put a meter or test light on one of the GP lead connectors and confirm you are getting 12V to the plugs when the cycle should be on (key on, cold engine). If you are getting 12V, check each plug (continuity to ground with meter or test light). If you are getting voltage to the plugs and still no fire, there is not enough heat. Either the cycle is too short for the plugs installed (can be a problem for some systems and 60G plugs), you have the wrong plugs installed, or too few of them are good to start the engine. If you don't verify the plugs are producing heat, and enough of it, anything else you do to try a start will be wasted time, and may cause other problems along the way.
The controller has 2 sides to it, and the click only means the relay (solenoid) is engaging. If the high-current side has failed, it will click all day and never send power downstream. Verify one of the large poles has B+ voltage all the time, and the other large pole has B+ voltage only when the relay is engaged. If you have no B+ voltage to either large pole, the high-current supply wire is open (disconnected at the ACC bus, or the fusible link or wire has fried). The smaller pole/wire is IGN voltage, which engages the relay (if it "clicks", it's probably OK). Verify the continuity of the GP supply harness by testing continuity from one large pole to the GP connectors.
Timing, at this point, is irrelevant. You have fuel to the cylinders via the injectors, and have been cranking the crap out of it (meaning, more than enough fuel present to at least fire it off). If enough heat is present, it should take off and run away, at least for a few seconds. If the timing is right, it will settle into an idle. If not, it will die under protest (slowly sputter away and quit).
If you have sufficient fuel and heat to the cylinders, it should start. If it doesn't, the problem is likely low compression. This could be caused by any number of reasons. However, if the engine started and ran before the pump replacement, you have no reason to believe this to be a problem.
DmaxMaverick
09-13-2010, 11:35
Also to add.....
Your engine has a block heater. You need to eliminate the cold-start heat issue. The heater isn't only for aiding really cold starts, but is also a valuable tool. Use it (or fix it if it doesn't work).
bigredtruck
09-14-2010, 01:39
ok i will do this I don't think the glow plugs or the fuel filter canister is heating the fuel either I have bad wiring some were in the truck ill just have to find it thanks for the info I will work on this this weekend.
DmaxMaverick
09-14-2010, 09:25
You don't need a fuel heater until the fuel flowing in is near/below the cloud point. Way too early in the year to see that in most places north of the equator. The fuel manager heater is a good thing, but has nothing to do with your present issues.
bigredtruck
09-18-2010, 22:43
I still have a wiring problem I tried tracing the wires back but didnt see any burned wires the glow plug controller is new but that dont mean its not bad so i will go tomorrow and exchange it. but i did straight wire the the controller 5sec max then tried to start and yep it did stat and idle but I dont think the lift pump is working the only way it would run is to pour fuel in the filter canister otherwise it would run out of fuel and stop so I did let it run for a while and the white smoke is so bad it loos like the whole side or the mountain is on fire never did get any better i let it run for about 20 min also started out with 60lbs of oil pressure and when warm 30lbs warm way to low dont really know whats going on there and now the engine dont sound right at all sounds like it knocking from the passenger side I didnt touch the engine so who knows whats going on there. so with the wiring problem in the engine and inside pluse the knocking and the cloud of white smoke that wont get better im really lost now not sure what to do now........could I have bent valves when it was 180 out of time?? :(:(:(
DmaxMaverick
09-18-2010, 23:59
Get your electrical issues straightened out. It will remain a nightmare unless you do. The timing probably didn't hurt anything. With all the air in the fuel system, your results aren't surprising. Air in the fuel lines really messes with the timing and delivery volume, and causes it to buck, snort and smoke like a freight train. Tackle one issue at a time, then move on to the next.
bigredtruck
09-19-2010, 11:18
OK thanks I will do this before I go and buy another engine At least my block is a 599 so if I decide to go that rout ill get something for it
DmaxMaverick
09-19-2010, 11:49
This is what happens when we have multiple problems at the same time. If you don't isolate them, one at a time, we blame results on the wrong failure (or no failure at all).
Tackle one system at a time. Get it right, then move to the next. The glow plug and fuel pump systems (on the DB2 engines) can be completely isolated from all truck body function. Disconnect them from the chassis, and operate them manually as you tackle others. Several lengths of 14 ga. wire with alligator clips can be very handy. Clean and verify ALL the ground connections first. If they aren't up to the task, nothing works right.
bigredtruck
09-19-2010, 21:24
well I took the new glow plug controller back today and go another one and now my glow plug system works like it should the knocking has all but gone but it still has a bad miss and a huge toxic cloud of white smoke I let it run for a hour and it still is no better has a miss you give it fuel and its not smooth at all really rough but at least it starts up and runs just got to figure out what is making it run so rough I did bleed the system again just to make sure I didn't have any air in the system and that didn't work either so this coming weekend ill work on that. also I'm not sure i have the lift pump hooked up right . so the line coming out of the lift pump goes in the "in" of the fuel canister yes?? if this is right I think i will buy a new one.and my tach is not working now so i will have to fix that as well along with the dome lights all this might be linked on the same circuit so at least one down now to the next problem
bigredtruck
09-20-2010, 00:40
OK its 3:00am here in NC this wiring thing was really bothering me so I was thinking it had to be a short in the lights or door switches so I went out and started disabling the courtesy lights one at a time and what ya know the first one I took off was the one that was shorted out now all lights and radio work as they did don't know about the tach yet don't know if it was on the same circuit or not I didn't wont to start at 3am and wake neighbors will try that tomorrow so now if i can get the engine to stop pouring white smoke out and lift pump to work ill be good almost there.....:):):)
The dome light circuit is a "GROUND" circuit. The power is fed to the lights, usually by a colored wire (orange) and then a white wire is run back from the light circuits and to the door jam switches.
There is also a ground wire that comes from the light switch and is used to ground the system when the little dash "wheel" is turned to the dome position.
The clouds of nasty smoke and the miss are likely connected.
With the engine running and "Missing" loosen each injector line one at a time until you find the cylinder that is not running.
At this point you can check the injector (replace it or swap it to a hole that is working) if the issue follows the injector you have found the gremlin.
Now if the issue is not with the injector then there may be an issue with the cylinder as in low/no compression.
If this is not the case then the IP is the next stop.
A failed/failing DB2 pump can have issues that will cause the symptoms you are seeing too.
One thing to do when trying to diagnose issues like this is to be sure that the fuel filter is clean.
The knocking on the Passenger side may very well be a BAD injector.
One bad injector can make a lot of nasty smoke.
The lift pump should run when the key is in the crank position and then as soon as the engine fires and has oil pressure it should stay running.
The lift pump is controled via a circuit through the oil pressure switch.
This is on the rear of the engine down behind the Glow controller.
There is also a relay in the electrical junction box on the RH side of the firewall in the engine bay.
Normally there is a little plastic cover over this area (by the AC Heater line inlets right below the hood level)
There is a small little black fuse carrier in there that holds the lift pump fuse. Simply lift the little clip and slide the fuse carrier out.
If the fuse is blown the pump will not run.
To test the lift pump, touch the center of the fuses plastic face (has a bare slot in it) to the 12V stud in the junction box and the lift pump should run "WHIRRRRRRRRRRRR" :)
If not then find out why.
A pump that failed could have taken the fuse with it.
The pump relay can also fail.
FUSE, RELAY, OIL PRESSURE SWITCH
Check these and make any needed repairs.
The oil pressure switch are these trucks are notorious for failing so a fresh one is a good investment
Get the lift pump working when the engine is running and then move on to other diagnostics.
Not having a running lift pump can cause issues that will make other diagnostics problematic if not worthless.
Good luck and keep us posted.
Robyn
Very carefully, with an open mind, confirm that every injector line is on the right injector...
bigredtruck
09-26-2010, 22:40
so I bought a ops switch and still nothing so i will buy a relay tomorrow I checked fuse it was fine tried touching post on firewall but nothing If that don't work i will try running 12v to the lift pump to see if it will come on at all.So let me be sure im doing this right when I turn the key to the run position the fuel filter canister should fill with fuel right???? :confused:
On a 93 I believe the priming process is not as simple as turning the key to run.
I think you need to have a helper apply the brakes and put the trans in drive and crank the key to the start position to activate the lift pump,open the bleed valve on the filter to purge any air and away you go hopefully.
This video shows an alternate way to purge the filter of air that can be done alone if everything is working right:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8laDkkPRjYU
Or as Robyn said pictured here(picture originaly posted by VW_Lupo_TD)
DmaxMaverick
09-26-2010, 23:43
The OPS only comes into play while the engine is running, and the oil pressure is up. Never any other time. I may be wrong (long time since wrenching on a 93), but I don't think they have a "prime" cycle. No electrical fuel pump activity unless the oil pressure is up. It relies on the IP's internal transfer pump during a start cycle, which is normally OK. (assuming everything else is healthy) You can operate the pump (engine off) by applying 12V to the pump, jumpering the batt+ to the fuel pump pin in the ALDL (diagnostic port under the dash, don't remember which pins), or (IIRC, or maybe it was only 1992 models), there is a pump prime connector on the firewall (wire that seems to go nowhere or connect to anything) that can be connected to batt+.
Disconnect the ESS connector (pink wire, attached to the top/front of the IP) while trying to prime the filter. If you don't, and you crank the starter, it will pump all that air through the IP, lines and injectors, where you were before with so much grief. Reconnect it after the filter is full and bled.
If you apply 12V directly to the lift pump and it doesn't work, verify it has a good ground. If it does and still doesn't work, nothing you do under the hood will help. Replace the pump. Also, check the connector for batt+ while the engine is running (or jumper the OPS connector with engine off). If it has power and the pump isn't working, the pump is bad.
There is a fuel pump relay on the firewall that activates the lift pump when the starter is energized. Power passes through the normally closed contact then the oil pressure switch when the engine is running. You can jumper the relay to run the pump.
Trans in drive only works on MY (model year) '95 trucks.
There is a prime terminal in the ALDL connector under the dash. It is the red wire: apply 12 volts to run the pump.
The 92 to 94 trucks have the little fuse carrier (shown in the great photo in a previous post) the fuse is fitted into a little carrier that unsnaps.
Simply touch the top of the fuse (small bare spot in the end) to the 12V stud and the pump will run.
Leave the engine off until you get the fuel filter primed up and free of air.
Any cranking will juest suck a bunch of air into the IP and further foul the process.
The 95 trucks had that wonderful ability to run the lift pump simply by placing the tranny in "D" (engine off) and turning the key to the start position.
96 and later do not have this ability.
The 96 and later trucks IIRC run the lift pump from the computer and no longer used the OPS to actually power the pump.
The early trucks use a circuit in the OPS to handle the power to the LP and these do/did fail over time.
With any of these rigs, cranking the engine to prime a fuel filter is a bad plan.
Once the filter is primed and free of air, open the drain valve at the front and run the LP a tad more to get any last bit of air out.
Now with the system all sealed up, turn the key to ON (engine off) and run the LP a bit more, maybe 10-20 seconds.
Now shut the key off for a few seconds, turn on, allow to glow and start the truck.
Missy
my 93's lift pump comes on with the turn of the key. In park, foot off the brake pedal, no oil pressure.
my 93's lift pump comes on with the turn of the key. In park, foot off the brake pedal, no oil pressure.
Does it stay on indefinitely? If so, someone has bypassed the required safety circuitry. Consider what will happen if you get in a wreck and the fuel line going to the engine is burned through.
In my earlier post suggesting to crank the ignition to the start position while the gear selector is in drive might well have been the procedure for a different year truck,with that said the pupose is not to turn the engine over at all(the neutral safety switch should prevent that).
bigredtruck
10-10-2010, 14:00
Well finally got a new lift pump and I plugged it in just to see if it would work and nothing so I tested it with 12v from battery and still nothing.so am I right if I hook 12v straight from the battery it should come on yes..no ?????. this makes the second time I have bought something from oreillys and it didn't work at all so i will have to wait some more till I can get another one:(:(:(.
12 volts to the lift pump is correct as well as a ground should make the pump run.
The connector should have 2 wires so power to one and ground to the other.
If colors match to stock, grey or lite green should be 12 volts and black should be ground.
bigredtruck
10-10-2010, 19:29
well took the other pump back today and they did have one in stock so off to the house I went thinking im on my way to getting my truck running well no the second pump wont work either this makes the third item I bought from oreillys that didnt work glow plug controller and two lift pumps stay away from oreillys will have to go somewere else to buy another pump...:(:(:(
bigredtruck
10-12-2010, 22:07
well got the new lift pump and it works will have to charge my batteries not enough juice to turn over so i will be doing that tomorrow if everything is fine I will buy a new set of injectors instead of buying just one.....:):)
bigredtruck
10-17-2010, 02:23
well got the truck running today the lift pump and all the electrical problems I had are fixed now so now all I have to do is find and replace the fouled injector :):):)
Unless the injectors are fairly new, I would stuff in a fresh set.
Replacing just one can cause a serious imballance issue.
7 of them at far less than optimal (if well used) and one working right, can cause that one cylinder to be firing at a much different time and fueling pattern than the rest.
As pop pressure and other things deteriorate, the actual time that the cylinder lites off can vary a lot from where it should.
This coupled with a brand new one in one hole can introduce some serious harmonics into the crank.
If you must replace only one injector due to $$$$ issues, find a good used one with some miles on it. The difference from the rest will be far less.
Good luck
Missy
bigredtruck
10-18-2010, 17:39
these injectors are new rebuilt 0 miles on them I bought them off eBay I'm not happy with these at all when I bought these I really didn't know what I was doing when it come to buying injectors, I tried to find the fouled injector but with no success. so is there a way to find fouled injector?I did buy the one today from auto-zone they had one for 80.00 plus 20.00 core then they had a GP- Sorensen new for 64.00 and made in the usa so I bought that one and to my surprise when I opened the box the injector had bosh on the side of the injector they must use bosh tips I wasn't expecting that but at least I know I'm getting a good injector these are the same as mine except mine have 097 on the side and these have 974 so is there any difference in the two part #s if not then I will go and buy the other 7
bigredtruck
10-30-2010, 01:02
beware of gp sorensen injectors from auto zone the say on the web site made in USA look at the boxes when you buy them I have bought 4 so far and two of them say Bosch made in India one says made in USA and the other one made in china so they must be using different suppliers for these injectors the made in china one looks cheap and I will not put that crap on my truck I will be taking this one back tomorrow
these injectors are new rebuilt 0 miles on them I bought them off eBay I'm not happy with these at all when I bought these I really didn't know what I was doing when it come to buying injectors, I tried to find the fouled injector but with no success. so is there a way to find fouled injector?I did buy the one today from auto-zone they had one for 80.00 plus 20.00 core then they had a GP- Sorensen new for 64.00 and made in the usa so I bought that one and to my surprise when I opened the box the injector had bosh on the side of the injector they must use bosh tips I wasn't expecting that but at least I know I'm getting a good injector these are the same as mine except mine have 097 on the side and these have 974 so is there any difference in the two part #s if not then I will go and buy the other 7
The simplest way to find a bad injector is to crack each high pressure fuel line at the injectors 1 at a time and note the effect on the running engine,the one that makes no change is faulty.Be Carefull not to get caught in any moving objects.
The white smoke you mentioned earlier has me concerned that you might have a bad head gasket and not an injector problem.
You should really be doing a compression test on the engine..
bigredtruck
11-02-2010, 23:48
well got the injectors put in and everything back together went to crank the engine and i noticed something didn't sound right so i checked everything and found one of the starter bolts was broke off in the block so i did some research and found that there is supposed to be a bracket there to keep this from happening. who ever had this off before me didn't put the bracket back on the truck. so I will be buying two more bolts and the bracket and getting the bolt out.I was lucky it didn't break the side of the black off.....
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