View Full Version : Observation on Battery Cables...
trbankii
07-02-2011, 10:20
The other day I was out on a drizzly/foggy morning, so I had turned my lights on. Got to my destination and since it wasn't particularly dark I forgot to turn them off. As a side note, I've often considered wiring in a relay tied to the ignition so that just this sort of thing doesn't happen but I've never actually gotten around to it...
When I came back out the truck would turn over, but didn't have enough juice to turn things fast enough to actually get it started. Crap...
Due to where I was, I really didn't have any options for asking someone for a jump and was going to have to call someone. Just for the heck of it, I took out my battery cables and connected the two batteries together - even though they were connected by the standard battery wiring already. I actually replaced that wiring the other year after reading several comments about how it deteriorated and led to starting problems for people. So it should be in decent shape.
Tried to start the truck again and it fired right up!
This tells me quite a bit about the stock battery wiring - mainly that it isn't the best system. I'm going to be looking at redoing the wiring with heavier gage welding cable (and adding in that headlight relay while I'm at it) in the near future.
Also, for others, if you find yourself needing a jump - give "self jumping" a try before you go and track down someone with another vehicle.
DmaxMaverick
07-02-2011, 10:32
Your cables (or anyone's) may be too small, but don't give all the credit to the self-jump. After turning off the lights, and taking the time to hook up the cables and do other stuff, the batteries had the time to "self-charge". When you remove a load from the batteries, they will recover quite a bit of residual voltage, and have a chance to balance the voltage between the batteries. Most often, if your electrical system is essentially healthy, a fail to start after a significant discharge can be avoided by a period of battery rest. Any experienced snow plower can attest to this, after stalling during heavy plow electrical use, for example.
X2 on the battery recovery.
Now this said, the wiring on the GM trucks feeds the starter off of one battery with the cross over cable tying the two together.
Many times these cables, connections and such can get a tad hinky and the Power is just not there to get the job done.
I had this happen on the 94 Burb one time and the RH battery was not getting charged. The cross over cable was not making a good connection and starving the RH battery.
The cables on these rigs have got to be in good shape as well as the connections too.
On my Burb, I rewired everything using 00 welding cable and the top terminals with the BOLT type connections.
Never had any more issues with charging or starting.
trbankii
07-02-2011, 16:44
Before even attempting to start, I let things sit a good ten minutes for just that reason. No luck. Also, knowing the potential issues, the cables are less than three years old and the connections are clean and coated with dielectric grease. Being stock, it is a side post connection, though.
So it was basically that I figured out my error, shut off the lights, and tried to start once with it obviously sounding run down. Waited ten minutes to allow the batteries to recover with still no start and it sounding pretty much as run down as the first attempt. I'd say it was less than two minutes to grab the jumper cables from behind the seat, set everything up, and give it another try. At that point it fired right up immediately as though there had been no problem.
Yup
Cable issue, Im have seen this many times on these rigs.
Sadly you can't see inside the crimp area on the side terminal connections.
Even with only 3 years on them, they can and do corrode down inside the jacket around the cable.
My bet is that your one battery is not being charged as it should be and the fact that jumping it made it go is pretty much proof positive that there is a cable/connection issue.
I have seen nearly new ground cables that for one reason or another would not work properly.
One good check is to use a good VOM and measure the voltage at each battery with the truck running, the voltage should be nearly identical.
If you see any real difference, there is a problem.
Even as little as 1/2 volt is an indication that something is amiss.
The various years of trucks saw the alternator connected to different batteries and or connected differently.
The early trucks had the LH battery as the slave if you will and the RH one connected to the starter and also to the junction block. The alternator connected to the LH battery.
The 95 trucks had the starter connectd to RH battery and the LH battery connected to the main junction/fuse panel with the alternator tied in on that side too..
Any issue with a ground on either side makes everything get hinky.
I cut the cables apart on the 95 DaHoooley and found that the entire inner area of the cable was just all green and corroded. Just the outer ring of wire strands that were soldered to the crimp area were doing anything.
The rig would crank slowly even with both batteries having been charged fully with a charger.
Chased the gremlin for a while and then used jumper cables, VAROOOOOM :)
One bad Positive cable on the RH battery and one bad ground on the LH battery.
Tossed the entire lot of them and rewired it with Welding cable and totally soldered eye type ends.
This eliminated some other transient gremlins.
Tell ya what, I am not so sure that the issues seen in these cables may not be part of the reason that the PMD and other issues crop up.
Bad cables causes amperage to spike up due to the bad connection.
Wierd grounds can cause electrical flows into places it should not, as it tries to go where it needs to.
Had a bad gound on another truck once that when you turned on the engine the wipers would swipe off and on, especially if you reved the engine.
Was a broken ground in the distributor coil (Old style HEI)
Back feeding can do really wierd stuff.
I had a friend that had a 96 Burb that went through a time of turmoil and would take out a PMD about once every two months.
The dealer was at wits end over that mess. I got involved when one morning the thing would not crank, we replaced the ground cables and one ++ cable and Poooof, never lost another PMD again.
We tore the cables apart carefully and found a really badly corroded ++ cable end (inside the jacket/crimp) and one ground was no better (at the engine block end)
Check it all out and see what ya find
Missy
trbankii
07-05-2011, 06:16
Yep, new cables are on the to-do list. However, I think that I'm going to wait awhile as the current batteries only have the side lugs. Get all the cables ready and made up and then when the batteries need to be replaced change everything over.
Fortunately, I don't have to worry about the PMD crap.
Good deal.
A PMD is not a blessing for sure :rolleyes:
GM made a terrible mistake when they went to the elecronics (the way they did) on the 6.5
Once the batteries go away IMHO get a set of the Optima multi terminal batteries and use the top terminals with the marine type lugs that have a Bolt on one end.
Have fun
Missy
trbankii
07-05-2011, 07:16
I haven't been hearing good things about Optimas in recent years. They were the end-all/be-all years ago, but a lot of people are moving away from them. Have to see what the options are.
phantom309
10-12-2011, 22:13
The old girl just isn't cranking that healthy lately,.still starts but just not cranking as crispas it used to,.and winters on its way,..
The batteries are dual terminal type, so i have the crossover cable going from top terminal to top terminal and the starter cable coming off the side terminal
My pal was standing there and said he wondered if i was getting enough amps down to the starter wired this way,.
any battery experts here?
Should both battery cables be joined at a common point to give enough juice? or will it flow thru the battery from top terminal to side terminal ok?
Has anyone thought of using the 1 piece cable that comes on the ferd flowerstrokes?
I,d like to make up a 1 piece with 0 guage wire, and add 0 guage grounds,.
where is the best spot to attach the grounds? right now they go to studs holdingdown the intake,. but aluminum isn't the best ground,.i,ve read it,s best to get the ground as close to the coolant as possible like bolts on the w/p,. i added a ground strap from the starter case to the frame,.would central ground junction block be best with connections to firewall,. frame, and block? Opinions?
Nick
DmaxMaverick
10-12-2011, 23:43
Completing the circuit through the battery is a very bad idea. You open up the opportunity for some serious fireworks (through the hood). It is also less effective. Pick one.
Coolant is MUCH less conductive than just about anything. Grounding close to the coolant is hogwash. Aluminum is fine, and better than most other locations. If your grounds are clean, no problem. Use some dielectric grease to keep out the oxidation. Grounding to the water pump has nothing to do with the coolant, but has everything to do with a convenient stud to the block, just like the intake bolt, which grounds to the block, just the same. The water pump is every bit (or should be) as isolated by a gasket or sealant as the intake. The bolts terminate at the block, except the water pump bolts are more likely to isolate themselves due to sealant and corrosion. Stick with the original locations, and keep them clean.
One of the biggest isues with these rigs, especially with the side terminal cables is the poor contruction of the assembly.
The side terminals are crimped onto the copper cables then the entire end has the rubber cover applied.
Corosion starts deep in the core of the wire and progressively builds up to the point that there is very little wire contact with the actual outer terminal.
The older cables were actually soldered before the plastic covering was placed on the assembly.
The absolute best solution is to buy '00" welding cable, which is about the size of your finger, has a great heavy duty rubber cover and is very flexible.
The stuff to get has very fine stranded wire.
Now Y'all heads off to the hardware/parts store and get some copper "solder Eyes" and solder these to the end of the cables.
Strip the rubber insulation back about an inch, flux the cable with rosin flux, insert in the eye and then heat the eye carefully and melt the solder in until the entire eye around the cable is full.
Allow to cool and your good to go.
Do this with all the cables and use batteries with the threaded stud terminals up on top (Optimas have a top terminal and you can get the heavy marine terminals with the studs.
Apply a little grease to the assembly after its done to stop corossion.
We used to spray them with High Tack but thats a sticky mess.
Make your ground cables the same way.
The grounding studs that the factory uses (usually an intake stud topped bolt on each side) are quite fine.
These bolts go right through into the heads and will make the best contact that your going to get.
Be sure that you have a ground strap from each fender to the battery ground, just as Ma General did it.
Run a smaller cable made the same way as your large ones to the +++ junction (slightly different on the 92-94 trucks than on 95 and later)
The big deal is to get the entire system all conected so that you don't have poor conections here and there.
Be sure your alternator cable that connects to one battery is made the same way using a #4 or #6 wire.
Always use the fine stranded cable on this stuff and always solder the ends on.
Do the same for the cable the feeds the starter too.
With this done, you WILL NOT have any issues with the battery power feed.
Folks that live in areas that use SALT on the roads have an even greater uphill battle, as this crap when it works its way into things just adds more problems.
Today there are ZERO factory or parts house cables that are worth a damn.
The stuff is all cheezy light weight crimped stuff that will fail sooner or later.
The sadest part of the side terminal set up is that the evil corosion thats doing its best to ruin the cable can't be seen. Even the best looking cables, after a couple years will be a real mess deep inside where you can't see it.
I have seen cables that looked pristine and nearly factory new, that when cut open and examined were totally consumed with a nasty whitish corosion deep in the cable, where the end is crimped on.
If these cables were well soldered onto the terminal end their useful life would be extended exponentially.
The big thing is that the copper and the steel end along with the plating thats applied to it reacts when moisture enters the assembly and then along comes electicity and electrolysis sets up and were off to the rodeo of corosion.
One last little tid bit that will help your newly made cables live far longer, is to get a can of liquid electical tape and paint the ends of the new Solder eye's where the cable enters it.
Paint the rubber and eny exposed wire strands and the thimble end of the eye too.
This will keep out moisture and nasty stuff.
The main thing is that the entire compliment of wire strands are all soldered together and bonded to the eye, leaving no place for the corosion to form.
Good luck
Missy
phantom309
10-13-2011, 09:01
Completing the circuit through the battery is a very bad idea. You open up the opportunity for some serious fireworks (through the hood). It is also less effective. Pick one..
ok,. i get the less effective bit,. but fireworks? from what,.? It,s been hooked up this way since last fall,.almost a year,.
i,m going to change the charging wire too it,s a chintzy little thing,.definitely could use some help there,
The absolute best solution is to buy '00" welding cable, which is about the size of your finger, has a great heavy duty rubber cover and is very flexible.
The stuff to get has very fine stranded wire.
Now Y'all heads off to the hardware/parts store and get some copper "solder Eyes" and solder these to the end of the cables
Do this with all the cables and use batteries with the threaded stud terminals up on top
i,d like to change out both batteries,. but not sure if i can afford that right now,. the stud terminal batteries are what i have in the big trucks,. and they are 125 a piece or better,.
I like the idea tho, as you said, the soldered 'eye' on both ends of all the cables i do live in the toronto area and the new stuff they are putting down on the roads is very corrosive, worse than regular road salt,.
Make your ground cables the same way.
Be sure that you have a ground strap from each fender to the battery ground, just as Ma General did it.
Run a smaller cable made the same way as your large ones to the +++ junction (slightly different on the 92-94 trucks than on 95 and later)
The big deal is to get the entire system all conected so that you don't have poor conections
With this done, you WILL NOT have any issues with the battery power feed.
Folks that live in areas that use SALT on the roads have an even greater uphill battle, as this crap when it works its way into things just adds more problems
Missy
I'll use the intake grounds again then,. i bought 6 of those braided ground straps that are about 1" wide and about 8" long with 5/16ths? bolt holes in them,.and i plan to use one of them for the firewall, i already have one from the starter to the frame,.
I,m off to price out some lengths of welding cable,.
Nick
Optima batterie are fine, just use the Marine heavy lead terminals to clamp to the studs and then bolt the cables to those.
NAPA seels a battery that looks just about like the Optima, with the spiral wound cells.
I have used these and they seem to be a good battery.
You certainly dont have to have the ones with the threaded studs to get a good job.
Good luck
Missy
DmaxMaverick
10-13-2011, 09:30
ok,. i get the less effective bit,. but fireworks? from what,.? It,s been hooked up this way since last fall,.almost a year,.
i,m going to change the charging wire too it,s a chintzy little thing,.definitely could use some help there...................
Batteries fail for a number of reasons, with a number of results. Usually, a cell just fails open, and it either drops a cell, or the battery won't complete a circuit. When you use both terminals (top and side), you are completing a high-load circuit through the battery, rather than outside of it. If the battery closest to the starter fails, the circuit from the furthest battery is still completing through it. If a terminal connector becomes weak, the load capacity of that connection is less, and can generate heat. A lot of heat. That battery can overheat, and vent explosive gas. Combine explosive gas with the heat, and really bad things can happen. It doesn't happen often, but often enough the condition should be avoided. This is not uncommon on older electric golf carts and pallet jacks. They are wired in series with multiple batteries. Earlier models didn't have circuit protection to prevent this condition. They just blew up. If you're on the course and this happens, your score card will be the least of your worries. I've seen it happen.
phantom309
10-14-2011, 12:20
Batteries fail for a number of reasons, with a number of results. Usually, a cell just fails open, and it either drops a cell, or the battery won't complete a circuit. When you use both terminals (top and side), you are completing a high-load circuit through the battery, rather than outside of it. If the battery closest to the starter fails, the circuit from the furthest battery is still completing through it. If a terminal connector becomes weak, the load capacity of that connection is less, and can generate heat. A lot of heat. That battery can overheat, and vent explosive gas. Combine explosive gas with the heat, and really bad things can happen. It doesn't happen often, but often enough the condition should be avoided. This is not uncommon on older electric golf carts and pallet jacks. They are wired in series with multiple batteries. Earlier models didn't have circuit protection to prevent this condition. They just blew up. If you're on the course and this happens, your score card will be the least of your worries. I've seen it happen.
ah ok i see what you mean now,.
nick
Strip the rubber insulation back about an inch, flux the cable with rosin flux, insert in the eye and then heat the eye carefully and melt the solder in until the entire eye around the cable is full.
Allow to cool and your good to go.
I strongly recommend using a good flux remover before placing into service. Even rosin flux will eventually enable corrosion.
Whle you're makin your own cables...go to the marine supply store and get the heavy duty, fine stranded cable (standard for marine) that is also tinned all the way thru.
worth the money..made cables like, this swimming in salt water years in the bilge of the fireboat I maintain...no issues.
you can get it online also at places like West Marine
My .02
phantom309
10-15-2011, 06:30
lots of great info,. BUT,. the cables will end up costing half the price of a new import car,.
i moved the cables both to the top side of the pass side battery it made no difference,. but,. the cables are starting to ooze yellowy green 'stuff'' so definitely time for cables, which i kinda knew all along but i,ve been in denial,. like folks do when the truck stalls and they look at everything before they replace the pmd,.:D
Nick
Phantom if dollars are a major concern....yes the tinned wire is pricey...go to a welding store and get some some nice ground cable...assemble as mentioned.
Not as good as Maserati priced cables but pretty darn good! Put the marine grade heat shrink over the whole assembly when done....fairly bomb proof.
phantom309
10-15-2011, 14:46
thanks bud,. yes the marine grade shrink with the glue that oozes out when it's heated,.looks to be way better than the regular cheap stuff,.kind of rubbery too i think not plastic,.
edit:
I,ve been trolling e-bay for awg 1/0 marine cable,. looks like I can afford it really,.3.99ft plus shipping etc,.
but i,m confused,.
awg is larger than sae,. so what size battery terminals do i need? (can't seem to find the awg ones),. the tinned ring connectors are easy to do i think,. The HD shrink tubing is pretty pricey too,. and i,m not sure what size i need for 1/0 awg cable,.(is it 1/2"??)
2X3ft awg 1/0 black cables for negatives from the two batteries to the intake,
I was also considering using two red positive cables right to the starter like on my big trucks,( 9ft and 4 ft).i think that would carry the juice the best,.i'll have to see if the solenoid stud is big enough for two terminals,.then run dual charging wires from the alternator to each battery.
Then might it be worthwhile building an awg wire harness for the glow plugs,?.
Nick
Enjoying the info. on this thread. I think this will help solve my slow start problems that have plagued me for years.
One question - would there be an advantage to run a wire from the alternator to each battery? Seems like this would lessen the chance of the slave battery not getting properly charged.
Thanks
phantom..1/0 is pretty good fit for a zero loss system.
I was thinking the same way (1/0) last year when $$ reality hit.. I looked at the stock gage which had been fine since 1995 and beefed it a little from there. I think I ended up at 1AWG with tinned wire...which I'm pretty sure cuts my losses also.
As far as sizing the lugs the easy way,,,Im a cheater...I grab the proper sized heavy duty lug with the smallest hole I can find and drill accordingly. I like to mechanically crimp my lugs (they sell a hammer smash'em crimp kits pretty cheap) and then I flux em nice and flow in some solder...then slide the gooey shrink covers over the whole mess. I also put the wrap around wire loom (home despot) around the cable for some abrasion protection.
If you want to mess with cable sizes I found a calculator on line that makes things a little easier..
http://www.gadgetjq.com/wiring_size_guide.htm
enjoy
phantom309
10-18-2011, 22:16
phantom..1/0 is pretty good fit for a zero loss system.
I was thinking the same way (1/0) last year when $$ reality hit,.
Rameye your a boating man,.are these battery terminals the way to go? with an eye on both ends? or the tinned ones that you solder onto the cable better?,.? I just want to do this right, ONCE. I will be ordering everything soon,. i like this vendors stock,
.http://www.ebay.com/itm/Marine-Terminal-Epoxy-Coated-Pair-RED-and-BLK-/380365135922?pt=Boat_Parts_Accessories_Gear&vxp=mtr&hash=item588f876032#ht_530wt_698
i still need to climb under and see if the starter stud will accept two separate cables, they'll build the cables for you,.i figure $115.00 for what i want,plus shipping,
1x10ft pos, 1awg
1x4ft pos 1awg
2x3ft neg 1awg
1x3ft pos 6awg
1x5ft pos 6awg
this looks a whole bunch easier,.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ford-Diesel-Powerstroke-Truck-Dual-Battery-Positive-Cable-Kit-105-/200659398389?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&vxp=mtr&hash=item2eb83b6ef5#ht_500wt_715
1)Some folks swear by the top terminals with clamp on cables due to increased surface area....I never had a pair of cables in this configuration that didnt corrode on me...you cant seal it. So my argument is that the increased clamping surface area is soon negated by corrosion as opposed to a properly soldered and sealed terminal end.
2) I would hesitate on putting two cables on the starter....if you size the wires like the way you're talking, it wont buy you much...it's better but is it necesarry?? Example..my 1995 in the salty Northeast, charging/battery system was fine until last year...not one hiccup. I only swapped it out because I did a motor swap and it was time. The cables were rock hard with corrosion, otherwise there were no issues.
3) I hate top terminals! Thats my own deal...I often find myself weldng my wrenches and screwdrivers across the battery terminals...just doesnt work for me.
4) Dont use factory battery terminal ends...they do suck, nor do they provide good surface area.
I looked at those ebay pieces....I get your drift...I just put my lugs right on the side terminals and lock them down on a stainless 3/8 16 stud thats been firmly planted in the side terminal with two nuts...bombproof!
YOUR NUMBERS:
1x10ft pos, 1awg
1x4ft pos 1awg
2x3ft neg 1awg
1x3ft pos 6awg
1x5ft pos 6awg
I'm going to assume that your 10 ft length is going from the drivers battery to the starter...thats needs to get stepped up in size if you really want or need it to participate in the process. Except for the starter I would make all the wires the same gage awg 1 or better. If you use the original configuration you can upgrade the passenger to starter wire to heavier...it will be carrying current from both batteries.
Look online for short spools of battery cable and consider swaging and soldering your own connections....I liked the fact that I could adjust the lengths for a better fit.
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