AMG/GEP 6.5 blocks

[Robyn]

Anyone coming across a new AMG 6.5 block that has unfinished bores.

Yesssss there are some out there. I bought one this past winter and it looked great.

I had to buy all the dowels and plugs, get it bored and honed.

This past weekend I discovered that the mainline was .002" under spec.

If you or anyone you know stumbles onto one of these blocks, be sure and check the mainline before assembling it.

OR at least check the main bearing clearance.

These are good blocks, but had some anomalies during machining and ended up online rather than the scrap heap.

Missy

[chris_maxwell]

I have my truck in the shop for a crank explosion; they say they are getting a long block out of NY (new block and remanned heads). I understand that this is the only authorized rebuilder for AEG, do you know who they are and what their product is like?

[Robyn]

Not sure who this is outfit is.

I am only aware of one rebuilder that's authorized to be a "factory" rebuilder.
They are not in New york

Get a name of the outfit and post it, we may be able to fill in some of the blanks.


Missy

[THEFERMANATOR]

I have my truck in the shop for a crank explosion; they say they are getting a long block out of NY (new block and remanned heads). I understand that this is the only authorized rebuilder for AEG, do you know who they are and what their product is like?


I'd bet money it's international diesel who claims to be the only authorized rebuilder for GEP(which is a bold face lie). Do a quick search and you will find that there stuff isn't worth the shipping costs. they do have cheap prices, but this is one instance where you get what you pay for.

[chris_maxwell]

i believe the rebuilder is usa engine production; all new lower end and remanned heads.

[More Power]

Anything out of New York would be suspect... because the same vendor has changed the business name many-many times, to stay ahead of the bad press. Too many TDP members have been burned...

[THEFERMANATOR]

i believe the rebuilder is usa engine production; all new lower end and remanned heads.

I looked up that site and it is the same web address as international diesel used to have, so RUN FOREST RUN! DON'T BUY FROM THEM! Unless you want oil leaks galore, poor quality builds, wrong oil pumps installed, blown out block oil plugs, and so on and so on. Do a quick search for them and you will see more than you ever wanted to know of poor build quality. I don't know where your at, but a friend of mine just bought one from TITAN engines out of Ocala Fl and it looks like a decently built engine. They use the chinese blocks, but do there own machining on them, and are using clearwater cylinder heads on them.

[CedarGrove]

In my opinion if your not getting it from Kennedy you are wasting time and money.

[chris_maxwell]

I think it may be too late; it is supposed to deliver tomorrow. The shop doing the work ordered the long block; he says he has done more than a hundred of these engines with only minor oil leaking (valve covers). I was leary of it being a questionalbe shop; when was the last time someone had trouble with this outfit?

i can get an engine from the dealer for 6325, a couple of thosand more; not sure what Peninsular and Kennedy want for theirs.

[rameye]

If I may ask ...how much was it??

[chris_maxwell]

Now it is on sale for 3750. i spoke with them today and they said that they sale AMG blocks and heads for 6900, the long blocks for 4K are american made blocks and assembled in their plant. Not too certain i can believe the american block part; who else in the US makes blocks?

[THEFERMANATOR]

Now it is on sale for 3750. i spoke with them today and they said that they sale AMG blocks and heads for 6900, the long blocks for 4K are american made blocks and assembled in their plant. Not too certain i can believe the american block part; who else in the US makes blocks?

They're chinese castings that are finished machined here in the US. The only US blocks I know of are poured by INTERNATIONAL(the real INTERNATIONAL diesel engines, not the shop that calls themselve that) and have the INTERNATIONAL diamond cast in the valley. Another note about the chinese blocks is it seems they are cast using SAE and some metric bolt holes as the one my friend got had SAE threads for the bellhousing, but metric for teh engine mounts. He had to replace ALOT of his hardware as his 00 was all metric.

[Robyn]

Here are some piccy's of the REAL DEAL

Notice the date codes on the back of the block

this one is 06 10 J
The ones that come by boat are not coded this way.

When AMG took over in late 2000 they changed a lot of stuff including the markings on the block, casting metalurgy, internal casting dimensions and a buttload of other stuff.

The julian date sequence was changed too

The let on the end of the string is the year. H was 2001, I was not used as it could be confused as a ONE (1) and then J was 2002, followed by K,L,M and so on.

All bolt holes in these blocks are Metric thread including the bellhousing bolts that are 10mm X 1.5

All the ones that are coming out of china that I have seen still use the old style date codes that were copied off of the early GM blocks and the bellhousing holes are 3/8 standard thread.

The overseas blocks that I have seen do not have the Diamond logo in the valley either.

The AMG blocks are painted before machining.

Here is a link to an existing thread I postd and it has all the piccy's of a Real AMG Block that I am working on. http://www.thedieselpageforums.com/tdpforum/showthread.php?t=39375

Pic number 8 has the rundown on the julian dates . GO TO PAGE 3 OF THE THREAD


Missy

[Kennedy]

Best of luck, but knowing the source you'll need it. Be sure the installer gives you good warranty. For just short of $6k including round trip freight you can have the real deal brand new long block.

There is just SOOO much crap out there these days it really makes a guy question involvement in the 6.5 any more.

I just sold one of our 6.5's to a guy who shortly after installing blew his top claiming the engine was junk and knocked. Come to find out he had Ebay "marine" injectors form a whorehouse in FL. That pretty much summed up the REAL issue...

[THEFERMANATOR]

I just sold one of our 6.5's to a guy who shortly after installing blew his top claiming the engine was junk and knocked. Come to find out he had Ebay "marine" injectors form a whorehouse in FL. That pretty much summed up the REAL issue...

And said shop ALWAYS blames the engine and says they NEVER have problems with there products.

[pwood]

Hello my 1884 k5 6.2 N/A 700r is dying. I can get a 599 6.5 N/A long block here in Australia for $8500 or a 6.5 N/A optimizer 2010 shipped from USA for $6800, very expensive to play here.

Will the optimizer transplant be able to use my DB2 pump, C code injectors, J code manifold, exhaust manifold, and will this set up produce the excellent fuel
economy that my 6.2 did, diesel cost $1.50 lt here. Chasing fuel economy, but i imagine with the same fuel flow rate, it would have more power, fresh motor an all.

[Robyn]

The DB2 pump will fit fine.

You may run into a slight issue with the injector lines.

The old 6.2 engines used a slightly different angle on the injectors and the fuel lines area tad different length.

If you use a set of lines from a 92-93 6.5 that had the DB2 pump, your good to go.

The later 6.2's used the fine thread injectors, just be sure yours are the shorter ones.

Other than that, you can use all your 6.2 accessories.

If the engine comes with a water pump, be aware, the 6.5 water pumps are designed to be used with the serp belt and turn opposite direction from the 6.2 v belt drive pumps

The intake and all that stuff will bolt right on. Same with the exhaust manifolds.
Water crossover will fit too.

Be aware that the later 6.5 stuff (AMG) have metric bellhousing bolts.
The GM part number on the bolts is 15724226 get 6 or 7 of them (a spare is nice) These have a stud top but can be used in all six locations.

These are very close to the 3/8-16 bolts that were used on the earlier engines and will fit the tranny holes fine.

The bolts in the side of the block where the motor mounts bolt on are also metric on the new blocks. Those you can likely get locally.

Your starter and the "tail hook" will all fit.

The new blocks have a couple extra oil pressure taps. One up front on the RH side for the turbo and one in the valley under the intake and one in the rear of the block thatis in the normal location for the Oil pressure switch.

The oil cooler ports are 1/2" pipe thread instead of the 3/8" pipe thread.

You can use the little 3/8 to 1/2 "Thin" adapters to allow your fittings to work. Or, if you have a remote cooler thats plumbed in with braided hose and JIC fitings just use the fittings with the 1/2' pipe thread.

Your vacuum pump/oil pump drive will work fine from the old engine.

Depending, the RH valve cover may have a CDR port.

You can just plug it and use yor original Oil filler tube and CDR from the old engine. (Breather)

The air filter will work too.


Pretty much a bolt in part for part swap (Almost)

The issues with the injector lines is going to be the same with the 599 engine too.

Now power will be good, the mileage may fall of a little bit due to the AMG engines having larger precup/ports

With a good set of C injectors and the IP set up well, it should do fine for ya.

Good luck and if we can add anything else, just let us know

Missy

[Robyn]

The DB2 pump will fit fine.

You may run into a slight issue with the injector lines.

The old 6.2 engines used a slightly different angle on the injectors and the fuel lines area tad different length.

If you use a set of lines from a 92-93 6.5 that had the DB2 pump, your good to go.

The later 6.2's used the fine thread injectors, just be sure yours are the shorter ones.

Other than that, you can use all your 6.2 accessories.

If the engine comes with a water pump, be aware, the 6.5 water pumps are designed to be used with the serp belt and turn opposite direction from the 6.2 v belt drive pumps

The intake and all that stuff will bolt right on. Same with the exhaust manifolds.
Water crossover will fit too.

Be aware that the later 6.5 stuff (AMG) have metric bellhousing bolts.
The GM part number on the bolts is 15724226 get 6 or 7 of them (a spare is nice) These have a stud top but can be used in all six locations.

These are very close to the 3/8-16 bolts that were used on the earlier engines and will fit the tranny holes fine.

The bolts in the side of the block where the motor mounts bolt on are also metric on the new blocks. Those you can likely get locally.

Your starter and the "tail hook" will all fit.

The new blocks have a couple extra oil pressure taps. One up front on the RH side for the turbo and one in the valley under the intake and one in the rear of the block thatis in the normal location for the Oil pressure switch.

The oil cooler ports are 1/2" pipe thread instead of the 3/8" pipe thread.

You can use the little 3/8 to 1/2 "Thin" adapters to allow your fittings to work. Or, if you have a remote cooler thats plumbed in with braided hose and JIC fitings just use the fittings with the 1/2' pipe thread.

Your vacuum pump/oil pump drive will work fine from the old engine.

Depending, the RH valve cover may have a CDR port.

You can just plug it and use yor original Oil filler tube and CDR from the old engine. (Breather)

The air filter will work too.


Pretty much a bolt in part for part swap (Almost)

The issues with the injector lines is going to be the same with the 599 engine too.

Now power will be good, the mileage may fall of a little bit due to the AMG engines having larger precup/ports

With a good set of C injectors and the IP set up well, it should do fine for ya.

Good luck and if we can add anything else, just let us know

Missy

[pwood]

he doesnt ship to aust

[JohnC]

You can use the little 3/8 to 1/2 "Thin" adapters to allow your fittings to work.

The late engines have a higher capacity oil pump to accommodate the oil cooler nozzles for the pistons. Because of the way the oil cooler is plumbed, I would recommend you go with 1/2" fittings and lines all the way to accommodate the additional flow. The oil cooler bypass is a pressure relief, not a temperature control, and less capacity at the cooler translates into a permanent restriction in the oil system. You may even want to consider a cooler with bigger fittings, too.

[Robyn]

Interestingly enough, all the internal passages of the block are the same size as the early squirt blocks with the 3/8" pipe threaded ports.

My 95 truck had a 96 squirt block (early 506) and it had the 3/8 ports.

As soon as you go into the block past the fitting, the passages are the same as the early ones.

The cooler bypass and the filter bypass are the same on all the blocks as are the inner passage plugs.

The whole cooler plumbing change is a bit of an enigma, as the block is still the narrow point.

I have seen several of the late blocks hooked up with the early coolers and using the early style lines with no ill effects.

If you have the option to use a cooler with larger ports, I would do it.

My fresh AMG Block for the DaHooooley is getting the early lines and fittings as I already bought new ones prior to getting the late block.

I am thinking that in very cold climates where the oil can get like MUD, that the larger cooler/lines would be better.

I ran a high cap oil pump on a none squirt block for a year with no apparent adverse effects. Just makes a BUTTLOAD of oil pressure.

80 PSI down the road and Idles at 40 hot.

Other than in Cold weather, it was great. In low temps the pressure would peg the gauge.

IMHO in a moderate climate, I would not worry at all.

[chestatee]

GEP doe's not have rebuilders per VP of GEP Marketing via email.

Michael

[pwood]

I am leaning towards getting a gep 2009 6.5 military long motor pullout from teds trucks n stuff, to retro fit my 1984 GMC jimmy 6.2
I am not sure off what it consists of as they say side mount turbo or centre mount turbo, i am assuming that they are all turbo. I wont be running a turbo so will it mean the engine will have the large pre cups as i want the small ones.
If it does run the large pre cups can i use the small ones out of my 1984 6.2 for better response and economy.
Would it be ok to hook up and go as they say that they are inspected and tested or is that wishful thinking.
Has any one else used one of these motors they claim 10 to 40K use, the price makes it a serious option against a new one for such and old truck.
Thanks for any replies hanging out to get jimmy cruising again

[More Power]

I am leaning towards getting a gep 2009 6.5 military long motor pullout from teds trucks n stuff, to retro fit my 1984 GMC jimmy 6.2
I am not sure off what it consists of as they say side mount turbo or centre mount turbo, i am assuming that they are all turbo. I wont be running a turbo so will it mean the engine will have the large pre cups as i want the small ones.
If it does run the large pre cups can i use the small ones out of my 1984 6.2 for better response and economy.
Would it be ok to hook up and go as they say that they are inspected and tested or is that wishful thinking.
Has any one else used one of these motors they claim 10 to 40K use, the price makes it a serious option against a new one for such and old truck.
Thanks for any replies hanging out to get jimmy cruising again

The turbo HMMWV engines all used the center-mount turbos. You can block off the oil feed port at the back of the engine valley to use it NA. The older pre-cups should fit the new heads, but you won't know till the parts are disassembled and measured. By the way, if this is a turbo engine, the heads won't accept your civilian intake manifold. The HMMWV intake bolts on differently.

Do you know if this is the P400?

Jim

[chestatee]

I have bought several 6.5 cast# 506 "optimizer" with Navistar heads(GEP is manufacturing their own heads now).
It is a Longblock-not a complete engine, no turbo, intake, exhaust etc. The center mounts turbos or for specific apps, and usually cost more and require fabrications. It is not a"Plug and Play" swap especially in a 84. The pre cups are a whole different topic and much consideration.Ted's is a credible outfit-but there is no warranty and if you dig into military surplus to compare or shop around which is always a wise option.
Michael
.

I am leaning towards getting a gep 2009 6.5 military long motor pullout from teds trucks n stuff, to retro fit my 1984 GMC jimmy 6.2
I am not sure off what it consists of as they say side mount turbo or centre mount turbo, i am assuming that they are all turbo. I wont be running a turbo so will it mean the engine will have the large pre cups as i want the small ones.
If it does run the large pre cups can i use the small ones out of my 1984 6.2 for better response and economy.
Would it be ok to hook up and go as they say that they are inspected and tested or is that wishful thinking.
Has any one else used one of these motors they claim 10 to 40K use, the price makes it a serious option against a new one for such and old truck.
Thanks for any replies hanging out to get jimmy cruising again

[pwood]

No i do not think it is a P400 engine, they refer you to there ebay site to look at the pictures, from what i can see its a optimizer 506 long block as i can see the 506 casting number.

I was looking at the truck stop site and they are all very positive about them, that is the engines and Teds Trucks and stuff.

When i rang Teds i talked to a woman named Margret who was a pleasure to deal with, she asked whether i wanted side mount or centre mount turbo. I said it will be N/A she replied you want the side mount then.

Do the military use N/A motors as well as turbo if not i am confused as these are military pull outs with low mileage, and she offered side or centre mount turbo

Thanks for the reply and any more coming

[Robyn]

The small port precups "SHOULD" fit the AMG heads. BUTTTTTTTTTTTTT you wont know until you yank the heads and have a peek.

If they fit, the big issue is to make sure that they are not below the head deck when seated.
Also, the cups can't protrude more the .002" above the deck.

All the rest of the stuff will fit except as Jim mentioned. The intake manifold on the HMMWV uses an intake that has the 60 degree intake bolts

You could use a HMMWV intake and be OK

The rest of the brackets will all fit.

Missy

[More Power]

Do the military use N/A motors as well as turbo if not i am confused as these are military pull outs with low mileage, and she offered side or centre mount turbo

Thanks for the reply and any more coming

HMMWVs were available NA new from AMG through the mid 2000s. AMG eventually made them all TD because of performance issues in the desert (due to the sand and up-armor weight increases). So... if the engine was manufactured within that NA period it could be an NA motor. And, there are many NA HMMWVs in service around the world. AMG, I suspect, is still offering replacement engines without the turbo. Jim

[chestatee]

The engines the gentleman is discussing come from the “Military Re-Power Program” for 6.5 Optimizer #506 w/Navistar Heads re program that started when the second version of the "Optimizer” was released in 2004. The guidelines of the program are to replace all 6.2, GM 6.5's and early Optimizer's (with the latest version to date on continuing bases).
The engines are removed and replaced with both NA and TD 6500 Optimizers- with “Non Navistar Heads”. AG/GEP blocks and heads are now produced by the Dalton Foundry in Indiana, because of quality control issues with the “international foundry” sometime back.
It depends on the type Humvee which determines whether it's a NA or TD (Center Mount) application, the A2 series Humvees are all NA with 160hp and 4L80E’s and the ECV models use a 6.5-liter turbo diesel with 190 hp. The power of the Military 6.5 Optimizer hasn’t changed since it was introduced - their simple upgrading the engines under the re power program. The beauty or benefit this is that “we the civilian population” has access to the engines that come out of this program.

The NA engines accept GM intakes, side mount turbos etc, as already stated the center mount TD and the Super Charged Engines will not.The engines that are available to civilians come through the re power program have been "Land Locked" or they have never been out of the U.S border. However the same re power program exists in Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, Hawaii etc, but they will probably never reach U.S soil again because of logistical expenses and permanent bases we have in the Middle East, Germany, U.K, Turkey.
The NA and TD optimizer is used for several applications other than Humvees; the military and Manufacturers are using them to power generators, marine apps, building equipment, Postal and delivery vans etc, Caterpillar is using them in new equipment. Also the NA’s and TD’s are going in postal, Frito lay and other delivery vans.
Also, AG/GEP has bought the rights to the 4l80E and manufacturing under “General Transmission Products” for the Humvee application.

A friend of mine in Norfolk, VA, is a contractor with the Langley Military Bases and has bought several lots of these engines mainly NA, which I've received several of them from him and plan to continue getting them it's the best thing available value wise.

Michael
chevytrucksonly@windstream.net

Link

http://www.amgeneral.com/vehicles/hmmwv/a2-series
http://www.amgeneral.com/vehicles/hmmwv/

http://www.nencinirettifiche.it/allegati/326-Optimizer%206500.PDF

[chestatee]

Humvees do come with NA and TC engines as I posted yesterday with links and specific data on the GEP and Military re power program. However the post seems to have disappeared?

Michael

[pwood]

Thanks for the reply Micheal, are you saying that you have a source for these new generation 6.5 motors.

I am keen on any information in getting one shipped to Adelaide Australia. I have been looking at Teds and from what i hear good people, but if i get a dud i cant swap it for another.

Apart from pulling the heads and sump how can anyone really verify what it is my dying 6.2 starts easy has good oil pressure, just pressurising coolin system. Could be just the head gasket but would rather get new motor for reliability, without the historic problems.

[Robyn]

Most likely its a head gasket on number 1 or 2 cylinder (two fronts)

The block decks erode over time and the gaskets soft material disintegrates and the fire ring goes way.

If the deck is good, a fresh set of gaskets and bolts (yup these are a one time use only) and you should be fine

Check the fire decks on the heads to be sure there are no cracks on them

The pre cups do crack, but they can be cracked in the port area up to about 3/16 inch back from the port mouth. It the cracks cross the fire ring of the gasket they are a no go.

Missy