18 to 1 6.5 crate engine vs lb7 duramax

[Vin82k3500]

I have been pondering a serious thought on a swap I built my dream truck 6 years ago and tossed a 4.3 v6 in it to get it on the road so i could enjoy it well I got 300k miles of great service out of it before the ol girl swallowed an intake valve on the way home one night so I have recently pulled a 6.2 from a half ton I drove daily will be back on the road soon been doing some other upgrades so my serious question is in a couple years I am considerring retireing to hot shotting and I plan to do so with this truck and maybey for the sake of all the other poeple who cant stand a slow poke especially a slow poke hauling a trailer I really like the simplicity of the 6.2/6.5 I have put serious thought into investing in a peninsular crate or amg/gep optimizer 6.5 engine my goal 300 hp/550lbft torque running nv4500 and want to keep it that way autos are for the wifes truck. but anyway have you priced these engines lately im looking at anywere from 8 to 13 grand then still need to buy an intercooler looking at some serious dough for that power dont say 12 valve cummins I did that before the v6 gas the noise was to much dont get me wrong the engine was great just not on the interstate everyday unles you drove with ear pulgs my serios consideration is a duramax ive seen 3 swaps very nice clean most everything working with both new and original clusters its least powerful form it has all the power i want its gonna get exhaust and intake modes when it goes in from the start along with gages so if i wanted more power a programer would more then suit my needs if any and I can get donors for far less then a 300 hp 6.5dont get me wrong I like the simplicity of the 6.5 but im thinking wich swap is more practical im talking maybey 4 grand for engine and fuel tank pcm intecooler and all assescories :confused:vs 8 to 13 for just engine

[Edahall]

I'm surprised that you found the Cummins loud. Was it a 24 valve Cummins and was the muffler removed? I have 2 Suburbans. The 1982 Suburban has the 6.2 diesel and the 1990 Suburban has a VE pump Cummins. The Suburban with the Cummins is definitely quieter than the 6.2L especially in the cabin. I have never driven a P pump Cummins so I can't comment but they're definitely louder.

[Vin82k3500]

the cummins was a 12 valve its clatter was very loud and as was the exhaust I have 5 inch stacks no mufflers it was bone jaring at highway speeds after an hour of highway driving my ears would be ringing my 6.2 liter is very quiet almost as quiet as a small block it has very little clatter that is almost un noticable with the hood shut and as for the exhaust it sounds like a small block and in the cabing at highway speeds nothing in the cabin but wind noise no engine sounds can hear a little exhaust but very minor I am not sure if there is something wrong with my 6.2 that makes it this quiet but it sounds like a duramax at idle thats how quiet it is and I have not seen a 12 valve cummins that quiet at an idle I did later swap on a streight trough muffler a dynomax ultraflow it only made the cummins make more bass and it eats almost all of the 6.2 n/a s bark leaving only a nice smooth powerfull and soft tone no one believes its a diesel till i open the hood and well its stock and my cummins had a list of modds a mile long p 7100 ip #22 delivery valves 150 hp injectors holset hx 50 dont remember the number torquplate or the exact specs on my banks intercooler but i really didnt like this truck and it was a 98 and if it was that much of an obnoxious ride in a 98 dodge that was built to acommodate this engine I coulnt ever imagine running on the interstate 130 miles a day in an 82 but the 6.2 was very pleasent in the 82 as I said like a small block chevy as far as cabin noise if I had to drive more than an hour it didnt matter what i was towing if it meant id have to beat the snot out of it to keep it pulling 70mph id take my old 3500 with the v6 because it was worth it for the nicer ride and creature comforts that the dodge work truck didnt have at least mine didnt

[Vin82k3500]

I know I will have to check the forums on towing with all the engines I may not really need a 300 hp engine I will see how the 6.2 does and goe from there it runs good just need to fix a few more of mother natures abuse on it before i put her back on the road

[Edahall]

I don't think you'll be very happy with a 6.2 diesel in the engine compartment of a hot shot truck. It would really limit you on what you could tow efficiently. The 6.2 is an excellent engine but trying to get lots of power out of it is a recipe for disaster. It's also very fatiguing to drive all day with an engine that's constantly struggling and running at its max.

The AMG 6.5 can handle a lot more boost and make better power but it's expensive.

Before discounting Cummins due to noise, go try out a 88-93 Dodge with a Cummins and original exhaust. The VE pump that was used in those years keeps the engine real quiet. Also, like any other engine, they need a good muffler to keep the interior noise down and eliminate annoying exhaust drone. I have two Chevy's that have be retrofitted with VE pump Cummins. Both definitely have less diesel clatter than the 6.2. Noise is definitely not an issue. The reason people like the newer Cummins P7100 is because the potential for it making a lot more power. However, the VE pump is still very capable of developing 400 hp and breaking every component that's behind it.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v48/rhedahl/P1020430.jpg

[Vin82k3500]

I wasnt planning to use the 6.2 for hot shotting in the future I agree I think id cause some angry poeple in baltimore it is nice I will have to look into the ve pump and you couldnt be more right about that p7100 breaking stuff i recently broke the rear end and the frame at the truck pulls I really like the v8 sound and yes the gep 6.5 is rediculessly priced when i can buy donor trucks with duramax from 2500 to 4500 in my local area depending on code and oe hp rating I have seen the cummins swaps in a few here and i was not really impressed they looked like red neck jobs with hacked frames and jury rigged acessories I have recently swapped an lly in a pickup for a buddy of mine that is a toy I made plates to bolt to oe motor mounts put a small dent in the down pipe where it clears the frame used pedals and fuel tank and some assecories from the donor but the end result was impressive and I really like the v8 sound alkthough I really like the simplicity of the 6.2/6.5 I will look at a few more cummins swaps I like what i see in your photo thats junk ram really has left a bad taste in my mouth for anything to do with them

[Edahall]

As far as simplicity is concerned, I would argue that the VE pump Cummins is even simpler than the 6.2L. It has fewer parts, no glow plugs, a single battery, no timing chain to worry about, fewer cylinders and a much lighter starter.

If you could get your hands on a 6 speed NV5600 manual transmission, that would be sweet. I've got that transmission in my 1990 square body Suburban and that extra gear helps out tremendously when towing.

Here's how the Cummins fits in my 1990 Suburban. The setup has worked out well and has been totally reliable.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v48/rhedahl/P1070640.jpg

[Vin82k3500]

WOW no firewall mat guess your right about the engine being quiet if you dont need one does using the nv5600 require drive line mods cause with the nv4500 i didnt have to do any mods i swaped it in a truck that had a th400 and crossmember and driveline and even transmission mount were a perfect fit all i had to do was swap my np205 for a 208and it looks like it came in the truck from the factory looked at some videos last night on the VE earlier models I have not been that familiar with them most of the guys around here are a little challenged when it comes to diesels how about cold starting my 98 was a bear to start in the cold it would take several tries where with the glow plugs on my 6.2 even the coldest mornings and I never plugged it in 2 cycles of the glow plugs and tap the throtle and it would start better than my gasser just lope for a bout 10 seconds and assescories dodge or gm im not a fan of chrylsers tedious alternator wiring and how do you like that power steering pump running off the timing gear Im not a fan thus far but i have had to deal with a half dozen that have failed in newer dodge trucks

[Vin82k3500]

how many cross member do you have to chop this has been my biggest turn off for a cummins swap other than I have noticed they all run vaccum brake boosters and 1 ton chevys all have hydroboost

[Vin82k3500]

how many cross member do you have to chop this has been my biggest turn off for a cummins swap other than I have noticed they all run vaccum brake boosters and 1 ton chevys all have hydroboost
the fabrication may be outside my ability however I am awesome with electical circiuts although my local machine shop is very reasonable

[Edahall]

WOW no firewall mat guess your right about the engine being quiet if you dont need one does using the nv5600 require drive line mods cause with the nv4500 i didnt have to do any mods i swaped it in a truck that had a th400 and crossmember and driveline and even transmission mount were a perfect fit all i had to do was swap my np205 for a 208and it looks like it came in the truck from the factory looked at some videos last night on the VE earlier models I have not been that familiar with them most of the guys around here are a little challenged when it comes to diesels how about cold starting my 98 was a bear to start in the cold it would take several tries where with the glow plugs on my 6.2 even the coldest mornings and I never plugged it in 2 cycles of the glow plugs and tap the throtle and it would start better than my gasser just lope for a bout 10 seconds and assescories dodge or gm im not a fan of chrylsers tedious alternator wiring and how do you like that power steering pump running off the timing gear Im not a fan thus far but i have had to deal with a half dozen that have failed in newer dodge trucks

Yes, no firewall mat and still quiet fairly inside. Noise inside the cabin is not an issue at all.

A NV5600 6 speed manual transmission would definitely require drive line mods for your vehicle. It's longer than the NV4500. You would also need to use an NP205 transfer case.

I was able to start my truck last winter when it got down to 20 degrees but it blew a lot of white smoke. After that, I would plug her in for an hour before leaving. At 30 degrees, it still starts good. The 6.2 can start very well in cold weather due to its high compression and glow plugs. Take the glow plugs away and it'll never start. Lower the compression and it'll also be hard to start.

Never have had a power steering pump fail yet on any of the vehicles I have ever owned.

[Edahall]

how many cross member do you have to chop this has been my biggest turn off for a cummins swap other than I have noticed they all run vaccum brake boosters and 1 ton chevys all have hydroboost

I didn't have to chop off any cross members. However, I had the move the front cross member forward slightly by chopping off the rivets. I also added another cross member a ways back that goes under the oil pan.

Since your Chevy already has a hydroboost, I would leave it in there. They give a better brake feel anyways. You can either T off from the current power steering pump or install a power steering pump from a 24 valve that was made to work with hydroboost.

[DmaxMaverick]

Hydroboost is the best option, undoubtedly. I do not suggest "Tee-ing" into an existing PS system. Whichever engine is installed, the pump should be one rated for hydroboost (higher volume), and it should be plumbed correctly. The high pressure supply line MUST go to the hydroboost unit (the HB unit regulates/distributes flow and pressure to both, so you don't end up with none for either), and the high pressure outlet goes to the PS gearbox. If you do it any other way, steering and braking will be very unpredictable. A hydroboost rated pump will have 2 return line inlets, one for the booster, and the other for the gearbox. However, if you are adapting an existing non-HB pump (if its rating is sufficient), you can Tee the return lines, but do not Tee the pressure line.

[Edahall]

The hydroboost from the 12 valve engine has the same capacity as the hydroboost from the 24 valve so you would be safe doing as DmaxMaverick. Or better yet, just get the hydroboost from a 24 valve engine.

[Vin82k3500]

its all food for thought as for those pumps I have replaced 3 this year last year I did one for free because I got my pee pee slapped for letting a leaky pump slide on a maine state inspection and annother local shop didnt have a sense of humor and called the state police on me I didnt want to touch it because I saw a catastrophic engine faileure caused by a miss installed powersteering pump gear that broke off causing as I said catastrophic engine failure it wasnt my ride home or nothing i worked on however it was a buddies truck and i watched him mess it up as I had a few beers and said I dont work on nothing off the clock but gm
he had the engine rebuilt by chadwick baross and they said it was caused by the power steering pump pulley sheering off and if fell to the botome of the case wich caused damage to the entire engine I have replaced 4 in the last 11 months and not had that problem but I was glad they werent my ride home its really left a bad taste in my moth for this setup maybey it can be bypassed and a gm pump used belt driven I will have to look more I have pictures of a 12 valve swap I took form the web and they show the crossmember needing to be cut and dropped for oil pan clearance maybey their engine is silling lower than it needs Ill stick with the nv4500 I did that swap and was expensive because I am converting to mechainical clutch since in the past 4 years with the 4.3 it was puking a slave or master every year I dont think id have the option to go mechanical with the nv5600 I just recently took the transmission out becaused I purchased a 400 dollar conversion to go back to mechanical on the clutch and it will also allow me to take out the lift kit i had to install for front drive shaft clearance on the nv4500 slave cylinder I dont mean to rant to much I used to work on machinery and that is where my love for this engine came from I bought a 98 dodge with a 12 valve cummins and hated the truck to death but it did run good it just broke all the time the truck and 47 re transmission that i can overhaul blindfolded I checked out videos and pics online of swaps got a couple years before I plan on retiring to hot shotting I know if i could use all my gm assescories it would really make the descision easier Im really sore on mopar

[Edahall]

I used a clutch master cylinder from a Jeep YJ and this has been the end of my hydraulic clutch problems.

[Edahall]

I dont mean to rant to much I used to work on machinery and that is where my love for this engine came from I bought a 98 dodge with a 12 valve cummins and hated the truck to death but it did run good it just broke all the time the truck and 47 re transmission that i can overhaul blindfolded I checked out videos and pics online of swaps got a couple years before I plan on retiring to hot shotting I know if i could use all my gm assescories it would really make the descision easier Im really sore on mopar

Unfortunately, your views are shared by many. People love the engine but hate the truck. The 47 re transmissions were very weak behind the Cummins. I also notice that used prices for Dodges with the NV4500 manual transmission are between $4k-$5k more than a comparable Dodge with the automatic.

[Vin82k3500]

what side is your slave on on the nv5600 i have not looked in to these much i ran the nv4500 for over 300 k miles and loved it so i was pretty content cant agree more on the pog 47re and the dodge guess that why more and more are puting cummins in ford and chevy trucks im bouncing this ideah hardcore on pros and cons of duramax or cummins the feedback i have gotten has definately rulled out wasteing 8 to 13 grand on a gep 6500 with an intercoller espeacially when 6.5 . com says intercooling them is a waste of money and that the reason most suppliers dont offer manny power adders for them is that they dont respond well to them and it just makes a finiky unreliable hot running truck so out with the ideal that a 550 ft lb 6.5 eill be awesome for my hot shot rig and you didnt have to do this to your frame to put your cummins in

[Vin82k3500]

the photo isnt there let me try again

[Vin82k3500]

will figure out resizing

[Edahall]

Here are some Cummins swap links for the 88-98 Chevy 4x4 trucks.

http://www.4btswaps.com/forum/showthread.php?17529-1996-Suburban-Cummins-12V-Conversion-Build-up-with-pics

http://www.cumminsforum.com/forum/cummins-conversions-shop-talk-tools-fabrication/346310-1993-chevy-silverado.html

http://www.competitiondiesel.com/forums/showthread.php?t=59137&highlight=chevy+cummins

Here's a Cummins swap on a truck like yours.

http://forum.73-87chevytrucks.com/smforum/index.php?topic=15339.60

The existing crossmember on a 4x4 truck doesn't have to be removed, however you'll need to add an extra crossmember like the following. That crossmember is overkill. It doesn't need to be that hefty.

http://forum.73-87chevytrucks.com/smforum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=15339.0;attach=139 50;image

[Vin82k3500]

thanks for the pics on that I like how easy that crossmember makes the swap look other than the fact I parted a nice truck for the nv4500 I have and know it wont work but other wise nice and simple guess i could get a matched set only other thing I see as you said that cross member is over kill it looks afull close to the diff what happens with 1100 pounds of engine and 900 pound snow plow and a bad pothole on the ditch side but it dont have to be made that low on the bottom

[Vin82k3500]

thanks for the pics on that I like how easy that crossmember makes the swap look other than the fact I parted a nice truck for the nv4500 I have and know it wont work but other wise nice and simple guess i could get a matched set only other thing I see as you said that cross member is over kill it looks afull close to the diff what happens with 1100 pounds of engine and 900 pound snow plow and a bad pothole on the ditch side but it dont have to be made that low on the bottom
you may have me convinced to go with a cummins

[Edahall]

you may have me convinced to go with a cummins

I don't think you'll regret going this route. Just make sure you get an 88-93 Cummins with the VE pump on it. Everybody wants the P7100 Cummins that's much louder so the VE pump engines are less costly. The average price for a VE pump Cummins that runs well and has all the accessories is around $1500. It also makes more sense for you because you've already got the NV4500 that's more than enough to handle the power. Once you get the engine installed and running, go find an HX35 turbo with a 12 cm housing for lots of low rpm power and quick spool. This turbo works especially well with a manual transmission because it has very little lag.

Also, here's the muffer you want for your truck. This muffler is both quiet and free flowing.

http://www.ryderfleetproducts.com/ryder/af/ryder/core/content/product/srm/oid/78183/erm/productDetail.do

[Vin82k3500]

I have one concern with my nv4500 its an early gm design but maybey It would be practical for me to get a gm adapter plate if i went the cummins route 1500 sure is a lot less than even replacing a 6.2 the boneyards here dont let 6.2/6.5s go cheap 2500 to 4000 for a good running 200 k mile pull but they dump lb7s for 2500 with 100 k on them go figure most of the pullers here steer away from the lb7 in favor of the later design with out the removable injector cups that are prone to leakage are all your assecories working ac cruise ect I hope if I do this swap I can still drop the 4 inch suspension lift and go back to stock height its bad when 265s on 17s look like escort tires on 8 lug wheels

[Vin82k3500]

have an hx 35 ksb1 from my 98 the new ownder decided to swap it out for an hx 55

[Edahall]

I have one concern with my nv4500 its an early gm design but maybey It would be practical for me to get a gm adapter plate if i went the cummins route 1500 sure is a lot less than even replacing a 6.2 the boneyards here dont let 6.2/6.5s go cheap 2500 to 4000 for a good running 200 k mile pull but they dump lb7s for 2500 with 100 k on them go figure most of the pullers here steer away from the lb7 in favor of the later design with out the removable injector cups that are prone to leakage are all your assecories working ac cruise ect I hope if I do this swap I can still drop the 4 inch suspension lift and go back to stock height its bad when 265s on 17s look like escort tires on 8 lug wheels

Are you talking about the adapter from a P30 bread van? Wow, that's expensive for a running 6.2L. If someone offered me that much for my complete 1982 Suburban that runs and drives well, I would sell it in a heartbeat.

All the accessories work on my Cummins Suburban except the cruise control. I could buy an aftermarket cruise control that runs off vacuum however, I rarely ever feel the need for using cruise control. For the A/C, I'm using the standard Mopar A/C pump but had to notch the frame slightly maybe 1/2" to get it to fit between the frame rails. The rest of the A/C system is still GM. However, I ended i[ using R290 refrigerant because it's more efficient than R12 and especially R134a. I didn't want to have to change to a parallel flow condenser.

Here's some information on adapting a GM NV4500 to Cummins engine.

http://www.4btswaps.com/forum/showthread.php?10881-91-dodge-cummins-to-early-GM-NV4500

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=427435

http://www.cumminsforum.com/forum/94-98-powertrain/250587-gm-nv4500-behind-cummins-12v.html

[Hooptybass]

Ive got 2 of the adapters from those bread trucks that had a 6.5 in them . I know it had a small allison trans i think . im not sure if its anything ya need but ill be willing to let one go

[Vin82k3500]

yeah they like to hang on to them I paid 800 for mine and they told me it was junk they didnt know what they were talinking about it still runs good today better with out a turbo than with one for some reason its really sluggish with the gm8 I tossed on it much more responsive na they dont like to get rid of them cause all the junkers here run them and if they do they dont sell them cheap how ever the more electronics they less they will drop them for I guess they are in high demand cause someone blows up a 6.5 regularly around here but as a resource and all I have exhausted in the state duramax run between 2500 to 6000 for what they call a conversion package or drop in solution that comes with engine harness custom motor mounts dented down pipe to clear frame acellerator pedal and pcm and fuel tank cooler yes its the p30 adapter so i dont have to replace my nice gm nv4500 with the lower first gear and reverse and custom bellhousing with a more common dodge unit i am partial to this as I dumped 4 grand in to this swap when i first built the truck and put the v6 in it i have noticed cummins dont sit very long i called on one yesterday for 1200 i called back 2 hours later to go look at it cause i wanted to take some measurements and they allready sold it

[Vin82k3500]

and iff you want a wrecked donor i been seeing them for 6500 to 8000 a buddy of mine just picked up an 04 for 6500 just beacuase its beat up its a daily driver 2500 hd crew cab 4x4 duramax allison I found annother one for 3 grand front end collision no bed no seats 05 this is why i was considering a duramax cruise will be a nessesity if i get the truck up to what i want it to be with the durmax i know it involved lots from a donor

[Vin82k3500]

are the adapters you have the ones for the cummins to bolt to a chevy transmission ?