Tow Capacity Question 1999 C3500

[rtphillips370]

Ive been a member here for sometime and have upgraded my truck off of the great advice and reading found here in this forum and have been very pleased with the results and performance of my C3500 DRW pickup.

Recently, I traded my 2006 Wildcat fifth wheel that is 32ft long and weighed 8600 pounds empty for a 2013 Montana Mountaineer that is 37 ft long and weighs according to the dealer at 11895 pounds.

I wasnt to concerned with the extra 3200 pounds as my truck pulled the 2006 with ease and could cruise as high as 80 MPH, I routinely towed the 2006 at 55-65MPH and would average 13-14 MPG. The whole time I would use the overdrive of the transmission as long as it didnt kick in and out due to hills etc per the owners manual.

Well on 7-17-12, I picked up my 2013 5'er, that day the temperature was around 95-98F with 60% humidity. I got done with the delivery walk thru, hooked up and hit the highway for home (IH-94) going from Chelsea to Jackson, MI.

Once I got on the highway and cruising at 60MPH I noticed the truck was definitely working much harder than ever before, due to the temp outside I ran without a/c and windows down so I could hear how the truck was doing, and I did expect some degree of performance change due to the increased weight.

Then when I began to hit what I would consider modest hills, I had to use almost all of the gas pedal and on one occasion floor it to keep 55MPH and it did most definitely downshift.

My concern and my question to those of you who are more experienced and knowledgeable about my truck, have I purchased to much trailer for my truck? or is their some other modifications I should consider. In addition to the parts listed in my signature block is that in the past two years, I have since replaced the IP pump, lift pump, radiator, alternator with new items and I have also added Kennedy's fan clutch so that the cooling fan kicks in much sooner than stock. The GVWR on the door sticker is 10,000 pounds but according to the RV dealership I purchased my 2006, my truck should pull more than that but I do not know exactly what it will pull without risking damage. 10,000 seems a bit low for a 1-ton dually.

During the tow home, one level ground at 60MPH the engine was taching around 2000rpm, 3-4 pounds of boost. What catches my concern is when I hit the hills, the EGT(pre turbo) climbed up to near 1000F and at that point I slowed down to keep the needle in the green. I am planning on adding a trans temp gauge in the near future.

Any information would be greatly appreciated.

[DmaxMaverick]

First off, you'll never again have the opportunity to get the actual "empty" weight of that RV. Don't believe the sticker. Get to the scales and weigh each axle (steering, driver, trailer pair), then weigh the truck w/o the trailer (this will give you the actual trailer weight). Just drive onto the scale, one axle at a time, and the last will be all three axles. Uncouple and weigh the truck by itself. Post the numbers and we'll have a better picture of what you're actually asking your truck to do. I think you'll be very surprised at the difference of the declared and actual weights. Once you begin using the RV, it will never be the same, so do it before you add the first can of beans to the cupboard (or start collecting dust). Once loaded up and ready for a trip (full water, groceries, clothing, toys, gear, everything), weigh it again for your real-world load.

That's a heavy trailer. I have a 2005 Mountaineer 5'er, and it's heavy, especially the pin. When you say "GVWR", 10K seems light for the dually. It should be around 11,400. The "recommended" maximum trailer weight may be what you are referring. This can vary a lot, depending on how the truck is optioned/equipped (according to the GM model brochure). Also consider the GCWR (the legal maximum weight of truck and trailer, combined). The RV shouldn't be too much for the truck, but may be too much for your previous trailering habits. Solutions are simple: Less speed; more power; or more truck.

[rtphillips370]

My mistake, the VIN tag on the inside of the driver's door lists the GVWR at 10,000 pounds. Aside from the listed refinements, I presume the truck has the heavy duty trailer package, with the additional oil and transmission coolers. There is a old co-op mill where I work that has a scale, I plan to drag it to work with me tonight and after I get out ill get the weights but I already loaded her up with the basics of the kitchen and leveling gear, ill post them here soon ;)

[greatwhite]

If I remember the weight ratings in my 98 owners manual, nothing is over 10,000 lbs for trailer weight.

That's with a 454 and 4:10's.

6.5 with 4:10's was down around 8500 IIRC, but I might be remembering the 2500 and not the 3500 on that one.

I'll have another look tonight....but 10,000 trailer weight sounds about right for the OEM rating.

Todays OEM trailer builders are also a bit "shady" with thier ratings. Often, they will weight a trailer at a base weight. This often doesn't include batteries, propane tanks, etc. Some of he shadier OEM's don't weight them with fridges, stoves, slides, etc. That's how they get 30-35 foot trailer with those big "1/2 TON TOWABLE!" stickers on them at the lot. Kitted out, but not camping loaded, I've seen new trailers scale anywhere up to 1000-1500 more than the weight listed on the data plate.

12,000 lb OEM dry weight is a fair bit to ask of a 6.5, you're a full ton over GM's ratings. Do able, but not exactly enjoyable. That 12,000 lbs will only go up as you add food, water, clothes, chairs, toys, etc to it......again; doable, but not enjoyable.

Flat towing will probably get along fine. Chuck in some mountain passes and best "git on over" to the slow lane and enjoy your coffee....

Oh yeah, one more thing: don't believe anything a dealer (the truck or the trailer dealers) tells you about weight or weight ratings. They usually either don't have a real clue or just outright lie about it.

You can usually make them look like fools with no more effort than simply opening the owners manual......

[rtphillips370]

I plan to take both of them to the local scales tomorrow. If it all means just slowing down and taking my time, I can deal with that, I am more worried about causing damage to the engine or transmission and thus defer to everyone here for their experiences. Ill post what i find out tomorrow, thanks for the input!

[DmaxMaverick]

As far as the "10,000#" goes.....
After looking up the 1999 spec, this is the GVWR for the TRUCK. This has nothing to do with any trailering spec. The weight declaration on the door doesn't have any trailer GVWR info. It should only provide GVWR, axle and tire information. In checking the trailer weight ratings for a 1999 3500 DRW, there doesn't seem to be a consensus. It's all over the map, ranging from 9,000 to 16,000 (it seems to have more to do with gear ratio and tranny option, than the engine). An original model year brochure, or the owner's manual may have more info, although I wouldn't be surprised if it's more confusing than definitive.

[rtphillips370]

As far as the "10,000#" goes.....
After looking up the 1999 spec, this is the GVWR for the TRUCK. This has nothing to do with any trailering spec. The weight declaration on the door doesn't have any trailer GVWR info. It should only provide GVWR, axle and tire information. In checking the trailer weight ratings for a 1999 3500 DRW, there doesn't seem to be a consensus. It's all over the map, ranging from 9,000 to 16,000 (it seems to have more to do with gear ratio and tranny option, than the engine). An original model year brochure, or the owner's manual may have more info, although I wouldn't be surprised if it's more confusing than definitive.


Looking at the owners manual it indicates 8000 pounds for the engine and axle gear ratio... But wouldn't all of the modifications made increase the capacity?

[greatwhite]

Looking at the owners manual it indicates 8000 pounds for the engine and axle gear ratio... But wouldn't all of the modifications made increase the capacity?

Nope.

At least not legally.

When the OEM gives the vehicle a rating, it's not just on the engine.

It's based on the entire vehicle.

IE: engine, transmission, cooling, brakes, axles suspension, frame, etc.

For example (just arbitrary numbers); the frame might be able to handle 15,000 lbs, the brakes 9,000 lbs, the suspension 8,000 lbs, the transmission 8500lbs, the cooling sufficient for 8000lbs, axles 9500 lbs etc. The trucks rating would be the lowest factor - in this case 8,000 lbs.

Upgrading the suspension and cooling may make your vehicle more capable, but now you run into 9000 lbs for the brakes. upgrade the brakes and then you hit 9500 lbs, and so on.

The problem is you only know the OEM rating for the whole vehicle and not what is setting that limit. Nor do you know what the next limit will be.

One could assume the 6.5 sets the limit on our trucks as the same truck with a 454 is 10,000lbs trailer (IIRC) weight.

You're just guessing where your upgrades land you because you're not going to get that kind of detailed info from GM. Heck, they probably don't even know that kind of detail themselves and they built the truck...

So then you load it up on what you think you can handle and it tows OK.

Then Johnny law pulls you over because your rear tires are "bulging a bit" (no lie, they can yank you off the road in British Columbia for that and weigh you, it's happened to me). They chuck you on a scale and check your door placard. Now you're overweight because they could care less what you've done to the truck no matter what you tell them.

The laws are different from place to place, but the stickiest province in Canada is BC for this stuff. Get caught over the weight rating from the OEM in CGVWR, Axle weights or trailer GVWR (or any other of the OEM ratings) and it's parked by the side of the road until you can bring the weight in compliance or go get a bigger truck.

And BC are even bigger buggers about it; they're got laptops with internet access to their data bases and can look up your truck model and options. RCMP showed me when the weighed me.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to be the weight police but that's more or less the way it works....

[DmaxMaverick]

Also consider, towing limits are very different between "bumper hitch" and 5'ers. The 8K limit is likely the hitch class limit of that vehicle, at the time of delivery. My ball platform hitch rating is considerably higher than what is in my owner's manual and the brochure (2001, 10K vs. 14K), because I don't have a factory hitch. I installed mine after delivery, and it's rated higher than what GM was outfitting trucks with at the time. My owner's manual also states a maximum 5th wheel limit near 16K, but I can't get there from here. They assume the lightest vehicle configuration, with one average driver, minimal fuel, and no additional weight (such as dust on the hood), also excluding the weight of the hitch equipment.

[greatwhite]

Also consider, towing limits are very different between "bumper hitch" and 5'ers. The 8K limit is likely the hitch class limit of that vehicle, at the time of delivery. My ball platform hitch rating is considerably higher than what is in my owner's manual and the brochure (2001, 10K vs. 14K), because I don't have a factory hitch. I installed mine after delivery, and it's rated higher than what GM was outfitting trucks with at the time. My owner's manual also states a maximum 5th wheel limit near 16K, but I can't get there from here. They assume the lightest vehicle configuration, with one average driver, minimal fuel, and no additional weight (such as dust on the hood), also excluding the weight of the hitch equipment.

Good points.

IIRC, the owners manual "max" figures also change with or without a WD hitch.

I believe the 8,000 lb rating says with a WD hitch, but don't quote me on that...

[rtphillips370]

Also consider, towing limits are very different between "bumper hitch" and 5'ers. The 8K limit is likely the hitch class limit of that vehicle, at the time of delivery. My ball platform hitch rating is considerably higher than what is in my owner's manual and the brochure (2001, 10K vs. 14K), because I don't have a factory hitch. I installed mine after delivery, and it's rated higher than what GM was outfitting trucks with at the time. My owner's manual also states a maximum 5th wheel limit near 16K, but I can't get there from here. They assume the lightest vehicle configuration, with one average driver, minimal fuel, and no additional weight (such as dust on the hood), also excluding the weight of the hitch equipment.

My manual has a footnote for weight distributive hitch and fifth wheel for 10,000 pounds for the 6.5TD and 4:10 gear ratio.

[DmaxMaverick]

Nope.

At least not legally.

When the OEM gives the vehicle a rating, it's not just on the engine.

It's based on the entire vehicle.

IE: engine, transmission, cooling, brakes, axles suspension, frame, etc.

For example (just arbitrary numbers); the frame might be able to handle 15,000 lbs, the brakes 9,000 lbs, the suspension 8,000 lbs, the transmission 8500lbs, the cooling sufficient for 8000lbs, axles 9500 lbs etc. The trucks rating would be the lowest factor - in this case 8,000 lbs.

Upgrading the suspension and cooling may make your vehicle more capable, but now you run into 9000 lbs for the brakes. upgrade the brakes and then you hit 9500 lbs, and so on.

The problem is you only know the OEM rating for the whole vehicle and not what is setting that limit. Nor do you know what the next limit will be.

You're just guessing because you're not going to get that kind of detailed info from GM. Heck, they probably don't even knwo that kind of detail themselves and they built the truck...

So then you load it up on what you think you can handle and it tows OK.

Then Johnny law pulls you over because your rear tires are "bulging a bit" (no lie, they can yank you off the road in British Columbia for that and weigh you, it's happened to me). They chuck you on a scale and check your door placard. Now you're overweight because they could care less what you've done to the truck no matter what you tell them.

The laws are different from place to place, but the stickiest province in Canada is BC for this stuff. Get caught over the weight rating from the OEM in CGVWR, Axle weights or trailer GVWR (or any other of the OEM ratings) and it's parked by the side of the road until you can bring the weight in compliance or go get a bigger truck.

And BC are even bigger buggers about it; they're got laptops with internet access to their data bases and can look up your truck model and options. RCMP showed me when the weighed me.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to be the weight police but that's more or less the way it works....


True, except many states only enforce "registered" weight limits. Some states allow you to register a vehicle in nearly any weight class, according to how much you want to spend for the tags. Check the registration card for the GVWR. That's what Johnny Law will reference when scratching out the cite. Unless he is a very well informed "commercial" cop (very few of those guys), they won't compare tire ratings, door stickers, trailer weights, etc. If they are weighing you, they'll be looking at the registration of the truck and trailer, and sometimes the weight declaration of the trailer. If they start comparing axle weights, that's the day you should have stayed in bed. There's very little money to be made with equipment violations. There is however, a lot in tax evasion (hauling in excess of registered weight).

[greatwhite]

True, except many states only enforce "registered" weight limits. Some states allow you to register a vehicle in nearly any weight class, according to how much you want to spend for the tags. Check the registration card for the GVWR. That's what Johnny Law will reference when scratching out the cite. Unless he is a very well informed "commercial" cop (very few of those guys), they won't compare tire ratings, door stickers, trailer weights, etc. If they are weighing you, they'll be looking at the registration of the truck and trailer, and sometimes the weight declaration of the trailer. If they start comparing axle weights, that's the day you should have stayed in bed. There's very little money to be made with equipment violations. There is however, a lot in tax evasion (hauling in excess of registered weight).

Sounds good enough to me, I'm not totally sure how it works in the States or for commercial drivers.

I do know that when they pulled me over they even checked each of my axle weights and looked up my vehicle and check the trailer data plate since I was non commercial/RV.

It was a set up traffic stop with a portable scale set up before a mountain pass though, maybe they were having an "awareness day" as much as anything. RCMP have been known to do that from time to time.

I was tickling the limits, but still legal.....

[DmaxMaverick]

Sounds good enough to me, I'm not totally sure how it works in the States or for commercial drivers.

I do know that when they pulled me over they even checked each of my axle weights and looked up my vehicle and check the trailer data plate since I was non commercial/RV.

I dunno, maybe it was a slow day?

I was tickling the limits, but still legal.....

They check axle weights because that's how they do it. Most DOT commercial scales only weigh axles (and combine for gross), and portable systems only weigh axles. I was a commercial driver, and still do on occasion. I was the Bandit before I was the Smokey.

[rtphillips370]

Ok I got the weight measurements:

C3500 had a full tank of fuel and me sitting in the driver seat and the fiver had a couple of drop cords, water hoses, and some 2"x6"x4' planks on board for leveling and this stuff will always be present to camp so i didn't think it would hurt to keep it on board. I took the setup to a local farm grain elevator company that has a scale to weigh wagons and small tractor trailers, they leave it on all of the time so I sneaked in a weighed each one individually to get these numbers:

Truck: 7,040 pounds
fiver: 12,840 pounds
__________________
Total: 19,880 pounds

Then I figure that number will grow by 1500-2000 pounds when I add bedding, food, clothing and some cook/eat wear and three passengers, rounding me out to a possible total of 23,000 pounds in all.


On a side note, I can hear what I thought is a small air leak when the truck is under load and accelerating, so I checked all of the rubber connections on the inter-cooler lines as I had one of the clamps come loose once and cause havoc on performance. In making my checks, I found that my exhaust crossover pipe has numerous cracks along its seam, I didnt notice them before but fresh suet marked them nicely and I am thinking that is most likely my culprit for lower than average boost under load and higher than normal EGT under load and the lack of power with the new trailer.

I am still concerned about the initial question I posed here in this thread and look forward to your insight.

[greatwhite]

Was the original question you wanted "too much trailer for my truck"?

If so, by the numbers and ratings, yes.

Can you haul it around?

Yes.

Will you have to get used to going a slower and/or running hotter?

yup.

Consider you are already 2880 lbs above the rating for your truck (4880 if the rated weight is 8,000) and you state it's probably going to go up another 1500-2500 lbs or 13980-14840 for the load. That's 4340-4840lbs over the rated trailer weight if it's rated for a 10,000 lb trailer. Numbers get worse (legal stuff) if the truck is only 8,000 lb.

So CGVWR in the neighborhood of 21,380-21,880 lbs.

I don't like playing the numbers police/weight police thing, but those are fairly large numbers for any 6.5 powered truck......

[rtphillips370]

Will the truck be able to endure for a couple of years at those weights? I am more worried about destroying the truck at this point than the police, am worried about the transmission, engine etc failing under the load than a ticket.

I usually move my trailer 6-8 times per year during the summer for an avg of 1000 - 1500 miles of travel with the biggest trip about 260 miles long in one direction.

I understand that I wont be climbing any mountains at this point and have no problems setting the cruise to 55MPH rather than 60-70 as i use to with the old trailer.

[DmaxMaverick]

That is a LOT of trailer. Similar to mine, and it is at legal maximum for my 2001 truck (maybe a little over).

The truck will survive, if you drive and tow smartly.

Truck survivability is the least of your worries. I strongly suggest a brake upgrade, at least. You may have to upgrade the rear springs, as well. Keystone RV's tend to have a very heavy pin weight. It doesn't matter how well the truck is equipped, if it isn't safe. You aren't the only ones on the road, and you have a responsibility to them.

Overweight violations aren't just "tickets". They are a lot more than just that. Not only are the fines VERY steep, once cited, you can't move. You'll either have to hire a tow truck to move you off the highway, or have someone else tow the RV (legally, and they check). They will "impound" the vehicle until it can be moved legally. Then, you have to pay the fines just like any other traffic violation. Getting caught is rare for RV'ers, but when it happens, they'll make up for all the ones who got away, with you. Once you cross the 10K mark, you are in the USDOT and local DOT commercial playground, and they'll treat it as such. Your ticket will be the same, pound for pound, as an 18 wheeler. They are paying much more attention to this lately, and violations have increased by more than double over the last 10 years. A prime example of this is what you see most common nowadays. A 2500/3500 truck towing 3 axle toy haulers. NONE of them are legal, and they are getting busted. If it has 3 axles, a standard 3500 and less is not going to be weight legal. These things need a 3500HD class, or higher, truck to haul them legally. The actual weight only determines the amount of the overweight fines. The GVWR/GCWR of the truck and/or trailer determines the legality of the combination, and is another violation/fine if either is over. Also, once you cross 15K 5'er weight, a CDL is required (USDOT and many local DOT requirement). If your local DOT does not require this, you can pull it off if you stay local. Once you leave your state of record, or where the RV is registered, USDOT rules apply. Trust me....If you see scales, they know more about it than you. Scales aren't standard issue for HP/Trooper vehicles. If they have them, they know what they are for, and how to use them. If you get sent to the scales, the commercial cops will take you apart, piece by piece, to ensure you and your rig is legal.

Yeah, you could do it. Whether or not you should is up to you.

[greatwhite]

How long the truck will last is a combination of factors.

The current condition of the drivetrain, how often and how hard you push it, etc. That ol' 6.5 better be in pretty good condition and that transmission better be healthy......

So, you're looking at towing it an approx max of 12,000 miles annually for the next 2 or so years.

It should last (see above comment on condition), or it could drop it's guts on you on the first uphill trek. I also doubt it will be an enjoyable two years when you're hooked up and hauling..

Dmav makes excellent points about the braking. Best to keep your speed down, anticipate far ahead and give yourself A LOT of extra stopping room......

Warning! Personal opinion FWIW:

I probably wouldn't tow like you're planning, but that's just me. I probably would have upgraded the TV or gotten a smaller trailer. However, I also fell prey to the "I want a bigger trailer" and my K2500 is usually right at it's rated limit or sneaks over it about 500lbs or so from time to time.....

[rtphillips370]

How long the truck will last is a combination of factors.

The current condition of the drivetrain, how often and how hard you push it, etc. That ol' 6.5 better be in pretty good condition and that transmission better be healthy......

So, you're looking at towing it an approx max of 12,000 miles annually for the next 2 or so years.

It should last (see above comment on condition), or it could drop it's guts on you on the first uphill trek. I also doubt it will be an enjoyable two years when you're hooked up and hauling..

Dmav makes excellent points about the braking. Best to keep your speed down, anticipate far ahead and give yourself A LOT of extra stopping room......

Engine is in great condition: has a new Injector pump, lift pump, water pump, radiator, oversized injectors, kennedy's intercooler, performance ECM, kennedy's clutch fan upgrades, PMD mods, new batteries and alternator etc. Transmission inspected by my mechanic and flushed regularly indicates that it is strong as evidenced by good pump pressure. rebuilt the brakes, drive shaft and had the body restored. Bout the only thing I haven't replaced is the engine and trans themselves and she is at 189000 miles. She is parked from November to April so no snow driving anymore as I use my tahoe for that ;)

I know it would drag the old trailer as fast as 75-80 MPH but I kept it down to around 55-65 for fuel economy and she would hold her own and earn 13MPG doing it in overdrive.

This new trailer, I keep it around 55MPH on level ground and I have been taking it out of overdrive till up to cruise speed or when I see hills coming, changing my driving habits is no big deal for me.

I average maybe 1000 miles a year towing my last fifth wheel and that was on my busiest year, lately it is much less as I tend to stay around home and make one 500 mile round trip to Mackinaw City a year with it. So I am hoping it will just maintain that pace till I put money together for a good down payment for a newer and more capable truck and most likely place this grand lady on the classified list to supplement that down payment.

[rtphillips370]

That is a LOT of trailer. Similar to mine, and it is at legal maximum for my 2001 truck (maybe a little over).

The truck will survive, if you drive and tow smartly.

Truck survivability is the least of your worries. I strongly suggest a brake upgrade, at least. You may have to upgrade the rear springs, as well. Keystone RV's tend to have a very heavy pin weight. It doesn't matter how well the truck is equipped, if it isn't safe. You aren't the only ones on the road, and you have a responsibility to them.

Overweight violations aren't just "tickets". They are a lot more than just that. Not only are the fines VERY steep, once cited, you can't move. You'll either have to hire a tow truck to move you off the highway, or have someone else tow the RV (legally, and they check). They will "impound" the vehicle until it can be moved legally. Then, you have to pay the fines just like any other traffic violation. Getting caught is rare for RV'ers, but when it happens, they'll make up for all the ones who got away, with you. Once you cross the 10K mark, you are in the USDOT and local DOT commercial playground, and they'll treat it as such. Your ticket will be the same, pound for pound, as an 18 wheeler. They are paying much more attention to this lately, and violations have increased by more than double over the last 10 years. A prime example of this is what you see most common nowadays. A 2500/3500 truck towing 3 axle toy haulers. NONE of them are legal, and they are getting busted. If it has 3 axles, a standard 3500 and less is not going to be weight legal. These things need a 3500HD class, or higher, truck to haul them legally. The actual weight only determines the amount of the overweight fines. The GVWR/GCWR of the truck and/or trailer determines the legality of the combination, and is another violation/fine if either is over. Also, once you cross 15K 5'er weight, a CDL is required (USDOT and many local DOT requirement). If your local DOT does not require this, you can pull it off if you stay local. Once you leave your state of record, or where the RV is registered, USDOT rules apply. Trust me....If you see scales, they know more about it than you. Scales aren't standard issue for HP/Trooper vehicles. If they have them, they know what they are for, and how to use them. If you get sent to the scales, the commercial cops will take you apart, piece by piece, to ensure you and your rig is legal.

Yeah, you could do it. Whether or not you should is up to you.


Thank you for your assessment on the mechanical feasibility of my truck to tow the r.v. that is what I am concerned about in this thread. I plan to baby the vehicle as I always have and more so for the next few seasons so that I can line up the ability to upgrade to a larger/newer and more capable truck. I will definitely look into the brake upgrades, the pin weight for this trailer if 2098 pounds on it and I havent had any indications that I am bottoming out on the suspension with it.

As for the legal ramifications, I am a twenty year veteran police sergeant, started in Texas and I currently serve in Michigan for a municipality at my designated rank and executive officer of the department moreover, I have recently attended motor carrier updates as provided by the Michigan State Police in conjunction with the USDOT. I mention this only so that I may qualify my rebuttal.

USDOT CMV rules do not apply in this instance as it does not fall under the definition of commercial motor vehicle which is:

"Commercial motor vehicle (CMV) means a motor vehicle or combination of motor vehicles used in commerce to transport passengers or property if the motor vehicle—(1) Has a gross combination weight rating or gross combination weight of 11,794 kilograms or more (26,001 pounds or more), whichever is greater, inclusive of a towed unit(s) with a gross vehicle weight rating or gross vehicle weight of more than 4,536 kilograms (10,000 pounds), whichever is greater; or(2) Has a gross vehicle weight rating or gross vehicle weight of 11,794 or more kilograms (26,001 pounds or more), whichever is greater; or(3) Is designed to transport 16 or more passengers, including the driver; or(4) Is of any size and is used in the transportation of hazardous materials as defined in this section."

USDOT web site: http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/rules-regulations/administration/fmcsr/fmcsrruletext.aspx?reg=383.5

The catch to this is that the vehicle combination in question is NOT USED for "Commerce" thus is exempt. Technically, one could purchase a freightliner cab, plate it as a private vehicle and use it to move a fiver and not be required to have a CDL because the same catch applies... At most the DMV would require a airbrake endorsement but I will have to research that because those campers driving the big converted buses like bluebirds, bounders etc with pusher diesels and airbrakes are operating them on a standard operator's license.

In Michigan, it is also common place to see what is defined as a "recreational double" that is nothing more than a fifth wheel equipped with a ball hitch to pull a smaller trailer. The state requires a endorsement for that and the total length of the combination cannot exceed 65ft from bumper to bumper. The first trailer must be a fifth wheel and must have brakes.

Again thanks for the info ;)

[DmaxMaverick]

OK. I don't wish to argue the issue, but I think it is worthy of discussion.

I am also career LEO, retired. Thank you sir, for your service. (sorry for the "sir", I'm sure you work for a living....but respect is due) Working in a very remote area for years, with very limited resources, the few agencies patrolling my area tend to merge. I'm SO, but often handled traffic, commercial and otherwise for example, while my CHP counterpart would often respond to burg's and domestics in my absence. Likewise, we were all CHP, SO, F&G, and Forestry (LE), with the only difference being our uniforms and paint jobs of our units (all trucks, BTW). Only one unit of each assigned to an area the size of RI (exaggerating a little, but it seemed that way a lot, really only about 1.2K square miles). None of us had reasonable back-up from our own depts (at least 30 minutes, often hours). Anyway, enough about my credentials.....

Specific to Michigan, in 2005 the definition of "commercial vehicle" was redefined (from the previous 1963, act 181) to include any commercial motor vehicle, or vehicle capable (by design, which excludes "cars") of being used for commercial transport of commodities (a pickup) or passengers, whether used for compensation or not, if the GVWR, or GVW is 10,001# or more (or a specific # of passengers), or towed vehicles (the catch). It states specifically, "for private or commercial use". The new(er) definition applies to "any vehicle" falling into this category, including towed vehicles (no exclusion for "RV's"). Michigan defined the adaptation to apply to these vehicles, declaring the "adoption" of the CFR code (390.5, FMCSR) to include actual "commerce" need not be a condition. They included any vehicle that "may" fall into this classification, regardless of its actual use at the time. Nearly every state has similar legal language, or local laws defining this.

The problem is, if your truck is declared by the mfg to be more than 10K GVWR (and the reason it is 10K, regardless of its capability), or your actual GVW is greater than 10K, the DOT commercial regulation applies, even for private/personal use, such as RV'ing.

[rtphillips370]

I also thank you for your service and hold the same sentiments. The municipality where I work is only 1200 or so residence. My chief retired and holds his office as a "less than full time" pay status or part time salary position, that leave myself as the next in line then a corporal for the full time staff and then seven part time officers. Our location is very rural, placing is between two other rural villages at eight miles in either direction. We always work one person to a shift and help is at least 5 minutes out or longer. but we provide nearly 24/7 coverage which is difficult and not commonly found in many small municipalities in Michigan due to budgets which leave the gap to be filled by the S.O.'s and MSP. Relationship wise it is the same here among the various agencies as you mention.

In regards to the law, I truly believe that is why GM placed a 10K tag on the C3500 as the law you are listing at the time would have that effect and thus am skeptical of that 10K tag and refer to research in the community here for experience to see if that is a hard limit or more of a administrative limit as it does seem a bit light considering other vehicles of similar build have a higher capability.

For the benefit of the readers here as this thread has mutated a bit, the laws here and federally had been as you indicate however, as you know we all attend a minimum of forty hours per year in-service training. Here in Michigan numerous 4hour to 2-week courses are offered to all agencies, and if 302 funds or regular budgets permit, we attend the courses selected by our Chief.

This year I have attended a number of courses and one being through the MSP academy - motor carrier division in conjunction with USDOT and the course and documents no longer reflect what you have indicated. Of course I am speaking only for Michigan and not any other state... I took the liberty to look up Michigan Public Act 300 of 1949 and there to the definition has changed.

For the purposes of anyone reading here is the web sites for research Michigan Law and USDOT FMCSR:

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(z4ay1t55ovrh0k55axq1sh3h))/mileg.aspx?page=Home

http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/

I love a good debate and I do so with good intention and no animosity Dmax and I value your vehicle knowledge and salute you for your service, love to chat sometime!

[greatwhite]

I don't know if I would say 10,000 lb is light for the design.

My K2500 is fairly kitted out and healthy - see sig line.

When I've got my 8000 lb bumper tow TT on and the truck loaded up, the 6.5 is capable, but just barely. I'm somewhere around 15-16,000 lbs CGVW at that point.

I started with a 2010 Forest river 26RLSS, 6500 GVWR. We towed it dry just fine and it was around 6000lbs. It was actually quite pleasurable and the truck didn't really know it was there.

Then we picked up our current Forest River Flagstaff classic 831RLBSS. Specs at 8500 lb GVWR. We are usually around 8,000 lbs in the trailer. The first time I hooked up to that and dragged it home the truck let me know it was NOT happy. That extra 2,000 lbs really made a huge difference in how the truck accelerated and handled, and the original high mileage 599 block caved in a piston crown from trying to climb Snoqualimie pass in Washington state. That was not a good day sitting on the side of the interstate........:(

I can't imaging another 2,000 Lbs again.

Now, granted, my truck is a 4x4 and a 2500. But that's suspension and brakes differences really. The 6.5 and 4l80e in my truck is the same assembly in the 3500. I would like the bigger brakes the 3500 supposedly have though....

I'm sure my truck it would tow 10,000 lbs, but would be fairly obvious I was above it's capacity. You're even above that.

My point would be take it easy and give yourself a lot of safety factor, which it sounds like you are already planning to do.

If the truck dies, well......it dies. You can't do much about that now.

"Ride 'er till she bucks" I guess is the sentiment.

IMHO, the truck won't die on you somewhere, but you'll just be shortening the lifespan.....not a problem if you plan to replace it in a couple years....

[gimpyhauler]

I just want to offer one point. How many states, counties or cities have money like they had in the 80s? How many of them are having financial challenges?

If you think for one minute there isn't a nationwide concerted effort to make up for lost income by going after any and all big ticket violations and/or overweight vehicles, you might want to travel with plenty of money available in your checking account or available credit on your card/s.

Then there's always the fear of being overweight and getting in an accident. Who do you think will be judged liable with the cause if you are an illegal vehicle?

Good luck either way.