View Full Version : LML Exhaust Regeneration
Whenever the exhaust regen occurs on my 2012 3500HD Duramax, I have noticed 2 things. One, idle speed increases about 200 RPM; and two, fuel mileage steadilly decreases for the 20 minutes or so regen occurs. Running empty, fuel mileage will ultimately be reduced 2 to 3 mpg. Will regain perhaps 1 mpg (at best) of that loss before next fillup. Is there any way to reduce that mileage impact?
More Power
02-11-2013, 11:11
As soot builds in the DPF, exhaust restriction increases. The rate at which soot accumulates depends on several factors, with exhaust temperature being one of the bigger factors.
Those who tow or run at freeway speeds for longer periods see fewer active regenerations. While towing, exhaust temperature could be high enough that the soot is being consumed at nearly the same rate as it builds in the filter.
Cooler temperatures that occur during the winter months compound the problem - if you can call it that. If you know that you'll be driving around town or locally in cold/cool temperatures, you might be better off driving some other vehicle, if one is available. The only downside to driving a DPF -equipped diesel pickup during such times is a hit to fuel economy because of the active exhaust system regenerations.
Is there any kind of notice given by the DIC when a regen is occurring? I have not seen one or found one. Just noticed the mileage dropping or idle speed being higher. Am I missing something? Think I read that Ford tells you.
I don't think it tells you anywhere. The only way I know is the elevated idle and the motor actually sounds a little different during acceleration.
It only tells you if it's PO'd. It nags you to drive if you let it get loaded by excessive idling etc. Essentially if it gets too much soot load it nags you to drive in order to do a proper regen.
You can often smell at the rear of the truck when it's in regen also.
I've been working on "emissions intact" tuning for the LML and have been having pretty good success so far with MPG, responsiveness, a good bit of power on demand, PLUS I had a pretty decent run between regens during unloaded highway driving.
Been monitoring the regeneration and need to do some studying as to the triggers as last regen was long on miles, but at a low soot accumulation.
cabletech
11-04-2013, 13:06
I think it starts at 700 miles or 44 grams of soot (at least on my LML).
Jay
I believe from what I have been reading is that there is a 700 mile component to this as well as differential pressure/soot load.
Mine was doing mid 300's but last one was at 700 and only 24g soot load at the time it started. It finished in 34 miles but dropped the DIC MPG very little then started to recover quite quickly.
cabletech
11-04-2013, 15:02
My truck regens between 400 and 700 miles on summer fuel. It drops with winter fuel. Here in MN, summer diesel is all B20 which may help with longer times between regens. Winter fuel is B4. The 700 miles bugs me. It a total waste of fuel to go into regen just because I went 700 miles since the last one. I can actually watch the soot load drop on it's own when I'm towing heavy (no need for active regen).
I would really like to have my truck reprogramed, but can't afford to loose the warranty. I don't need any more power, but it would be nice to get a little better mileage. I may think a little different after the truck get closer to the end of the warranty.
Jay
Mark Rinker
11-05-2013, 16:14
I put 120K miles on my last 2009 LMM, only had it bother me about a regen once that I recall.
Most of the time they must have happened while towing, and since my average MPG loaded/unloaded hovered in the 12s, it wasn't really noticable.
The more you tow, I guess the less of an issue the DPF is. I was amazed at how clean the tailpipe remained over time...basically ZERO soot accumulation, indicating that not much makes its way out.
What I have observed is that a typical regen cycle yields about 12mpg empty based on the DIC average. The longer the regen, the more your avg MPG will drop.
As for the tail pipe soot, remember, the big air gap allows lots of air through and it tapers outward so there's not much contact with the walls. Look back inside the main pipe and you'll see some black.
Guys, especially John, my 2012 regens about every 250 miles empty. Some of you get 400 to 700 before regen?
I'm still getting consistent 700 mile regens at about 24 grams soot load. If I had the ability to extend the regen miles through programming I'm sure I could get close to double the miles before the max soot load is reached. While double 24grams is 48, the base soot after regen always pops back up to several grams minimum shortly after the regen cycle is complete.
I had an email conversation with a customer who thought he was getting long regens. He went on a trip and found it to be in the 200-350 range.
Dinkie Diesel
01-26-2014, 08:37
I just made a verbal commitment on a 2014 2500HD Duramax. I have been hunting for info on fuel mileage posted on the web. I have high hopes the 2014 will get better MPG than my current 2001 which is around 16mpg. Now I am worried after reading this thread. I seldom haul or pull anything. I bought/am buying a 2500HD diesel because I like the power and hate transmission downshifts on lesser vehicles every time you encounter a slight grade when cruise control is on. Since I won't be working the engine hard I will probably have frequent regens and my MPG will suffer. :(
Those of you who can tell when your vehicle is in regen mode, how do you know? The only time I ever knew my '09 needed regen is when it told me I needed to do it. That was because I was driving only around a campground for two weeks. Do you think perhaps the reason I don't know it is because virtually all the time I use the truck, I'm carrying a 4k camper and towing a Jeep Wrangler?
Bob
Frys6971
02-05-2014, 11:25
I believe from what I have been reading is that there is a 700 mile component to this as well as differential pressure/soot load.
Mine was doing mid 300's but last one was at 700 and only 24g soot load at the time it started. It finished in 34 miles but dropped the DIC MPG very little then started to recover quite quickly.
How do you find out your soot load, does it say in the DIC?
Soot load is monitored in the scan data.
I encourage my tuning customers to start with the Edge Insight: http://www.kennedydiesel.com/detail.cfm?ID=673
The Insight is used to monitor the soot load among other things. It is also a useful coach in that when you see it beginning the regen mode you can drive accordingly. In my case knowing that the regen is coming every 700 miles like clockwork is also helpful. Whenever possible I try to plan to be on the highway when this comes around.
Dinkie Diesel
02-05-2014, 17:23
With about 450 miles on the odometer this was snapped after an hour at 70mph with cruise on. This is what makes me question a good many folks who claim they get 20+mpg. I don't think my new baby would get that going down hill with a tail wind.
Frys6971
02-05-2014, 19:17
Soot load is monitored in the scan data.
I encourage my tuning customers to start with the Edge Insight: http://www.kennedydiesel.com/detail.cfm?ID=673
The Insight is used to monitor the soot load among other things. It is also a useful coach in that when you see it beginning the regen mode you can drive accordingly. In my case knowing that the regen is coming every 700 miles like clockwork is also helpful. Whenever possible I try to plan to be on the highway when this comes around.
I have a Edge Insight that I had in my old truck, I got it last year, it is version REV 04 with a build date of 05/2011 also has this number as well# H00001700. I can not find the soot load on my devise, if it is not the latest version I believe I can download the newest version to my Insight, is that correct? I just want to learn all about this regen business, also will my motor noise be louder during regen? Today my injectors were real loud at around 2100 RPM to about 2400 then it got quite again. Thank you for your patience this new truck is a hole different animal then the LB7 I have been driving for 12 years. I am very interested in buying your tune when your ready to release it.
You'll want to go to Edge site and download their Fusion program to update your unit.
With about 450 miles on the odometer this was snapped after an hour at 70mph with cruise on. This is what makes me question a good many folks who claim they get 20+mpg. I don't think my new baby would get that going down hill with a tail wind.
The key is bolded above. Now I have had tanks run in the 19's at 70mph. but if there is any wind load it gets really tough and it will not do this with stock programming.
DieselTom
06-24-2014, 03:26
It only tells you if it's PO'd. It nags you to drive if you let it get loaded by excessive idling etc. Essentially if it gets too much soot load it nags you to drive in order to do a proper regen.
You can often smell at the rear of the truck when it's in regen also.
Hi; I'm new to this site, and I just bought a double wheeler chevy. Could You please explain to me what are You talking about, when You say regen, and how to do it, or the engine will do it automatically?
Thanks; DieselTom
Oh where to begin?
Probably the best thing I can do is refer you to the owners manual.
Simply put, there is a filter in the exhaust that catches particulate. When the ECM senses that the filter is in need of a cleaning it enters regeneration mode and burns the crap out while you drive.
My truck went into it's first regen at 450 miles while I was sitting waiting to enter car wash.
Started to panic when I saw the elevated idle and the tone of the engine changed .But then I realized that it was in regen mode.The first 450 miles were around town unloaded.
Looking at purchasing a 2011 2500HD but have concerns about being stuck in the 'great outdoors' in limp mode.
How hard is it to troubleshoot these systems?
Do codes indicate which sensor needs replacing?
Do the factory manuals provide enough info?
Cheers
Jon
one who moves, can change something
If you have a Duramax LML engine that is or has in the past not performed properly, posted a DTC 2459 code (frequent regeneration), still battling with your dealer on DPF issues, mass air flow sensor, EGT temps, differential pressure sensors, poor gas mileage, excessive burns, frequent regenerations, regenerations less than what is specified in the maintenance manual (1 burn per fill up), frequent returns to your dealer because of engine performance, please post your mechanical issues here.
There is a < 200 mile club out there.
Warranty question - it has been back multiple times without resolution. Has yours?
My truck regens between 46-80 miles.
What happened to the GM manual that states 1 time every tank? I am at 3-5 burns per fill up and not pulling the 5th wheel. EGT have been up to 1450 while pulling. Waiting for GM to step up?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00hdAKkBGLo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvhRZyHNAEc
Looking at purchasing a 2011 2500HD but have concerns about being stuck in the 'great outdoors' in limp mode.
How hard is it to troubleshoot these systems?
Do codes indicate which sensor needs replacing?
Do the factory manuals provide enough info?
Cheers
Jon
Here you go, you asked!
DTC P2459
Diagnostic Instructions
•Perform the Diagnostic System Check - Vehicle (See: Testing and Inspection\Initial Inspection and Diagnostic Overview\Diagnostic System Check - Vehicle) prior to using this diagnostic procedure.
•Review Strategy Based Diagnosis (See: Testing and Inspection\Initial Inspection and Diagnostic Overview\Strategy Based Diagnosis) for an overview of the diagnostic approach.
•Diagnostic Procedure Instructions (See: Testing and Inspection\Initial Inspection and Diagnostic Overview\Diagnostic Procedure Instructions) provides an overview of each diagnostic category.
DTC Descriptor
DTC P2459
•Diesel Particulate Filter Regeneration Too Often
Circuit/System Description
The particulates in the exhaust gases are collected by the diesel particulate filter (DPF). When the filter becomes saturated with particulates, the particulates are incinerated by a regeneration process. The regeneration process increases the exhaust gas temperature, warming the diesel oxidation catalyst (DOC) first, then warming the DPF. The engine control module (ECM) monitors the system with inputs from two exhaust gas temperature (EGT) sensors 1 and 2 and an exhaust pressure differential sensor.
The ECM will command an active regeneration base on a calculated soot model. The soot model calculations are based on the following information:
•Distance since last DPF regeneration
•Fuel used since last DPF regeneration
•Engine run time since last DPF regeneration
•Exhaust pressure differential sensor values
Conditions for Running the DTC
•DTC P0101, P0401, P0402, P2002, P2229, P2453, P2454, or P2455, are not set.
•The engine is running.
•The Intake Air Temperature is warmer than -7°C (19°F)
•The BARO pressure is greater than 75 kPa (11 psi).
•One active regeneration event has completed.
•DTC P2459 runs continuously when the above condition are met.
Conditions for Setting the DTC
The ECM detects that the actual soot level between completed regenerations is greater than predetermined threshold.
Action Taken When the DTC Sets
DTC P2459 is a Type B DTC.
Conditions for Clearing the MIL/DTC
DTC P2459 is a Type B DTC.
Diagnostic Aids
•A skewed or shifted exhaust pressure differential sensor will cause inaccuracies in the soot model and may cause this DTC to set.
•Exhaust leaks in the exhaust system may cause inaccurate gas temperature sensor or exhaust differential pressure values causing this DTC to set.
•Improperly installed or loose exhaust gas temperature (EGT) sensors will cause inaccuracies in the soot model and cause this DTC to set.
•Low engine compression may cause this DTC to set.
•Water in the fuel system will lower the energy of the fuel which lowers the regeneration temperatures and may cause this DTC to set.
Reference Information
Schematic Reference
Engine Controls Schematics (See: Diagrams\Electrical\Powertrain Management\System Diagram)
Connector End View Reference
Component Connector End Views (See: Diagrams\Connector Views\Connector End Views By Name)
Description and Operation Reference
Exhaust Aftertreatment System Description (See: Powertrain Management\Emission Control Systems)
Electrical Information Reference
•Circuit Testing (See: Testing and Inspection\Component Tests and General Diagnostics\General Electrical Diagnostic Procedures\Circuit Testing\Circuit Testing)
•Connector Repairs (See: Testing and Inspection\Component Tests and General Diagnostics\General Electrical Diagnostic Procedures\Connector Repairs\Connector Repairs)
•Testing for Intermittent Conditions and Poor Connections (See: Testing and Inspection\Component Tests and General Diagnostics\General Electrical Diagnostic Procedures\Circuit Testing\Testing for Intermittent Conditions and Poor Connections)
•Wiring Repairs (See: Testing and Inspection\Component Tests and General Diagnostics\General Electrical Diagnostic Procedures\Wiring Repairs\Wiring Repairs)
DTC Type Reference
Powertrain Diagnostic Trouble Code (DTC) Type Definitions (See: Diagnostic Trouble Code Descriptions\Powertrain Diagnostic Trouble Code (DTC) Type Definitions)
Scan Tool Reference
Control Module References (See: Testing and Inspection\Programming and Relearning\Control Module References) for scan tool information
Special Tools
•J-23738-A Mityvac
•J-35555 Metal Mityvac
Circuit/System Verification
1.Verify that DTCs P003A, P0047, P0048, P0088, P0101, P0201-P0208, P0234, P0263, P0266, P0269, P0272, P0275, P0278, P0281, P0284, P0299, P02E0, P02E2, P02E3, P02E7-P02E9, P02EB, P0300-P0308, P0401, P0402, P046C, P2032, P2033, P2453, 2454, or P2455 are not set.
¤ If a DTC is set, refer to Diagnostic Trouble Code (DTC) List - Vehicle (See: Diagnostic Trouble Code Descriptions\Diagnostic Trouble Code (DTC) List - Vehicle) for further diagnosis.
2.Engine idling at operating temperature, observe the scan tool Particulate Filt. Pressure Variance parameter. The value should be between 0-3 kPa.
3.Operate the vehicle within the Conditions for Running the DTC to verify the DTC does not reset. You may also operate the vehicle within the conditions that you observed from the Freeze Frame/Failure Records data.
But wait there is more:
Circuit/System Testing
1.Engine running, verify the scan tool Particulate Filt. Pressure Variance parameter is greater than 0 kPa (0 psi) and increases as engine speed is increased.
¤ If less than the specified range, and the parameter decreases as engine speed is increased, inspect for incorrect differential pressure line routing.
2.Verify the following conditions do not exist:
•Water in fuel contamination-Refer to Contaminants-in-Fuel Diagnosis (See: Powertrain Management\Computers and Control Systems\Testing and Inspection\Component Tests and General Diagnostics\Contaminants-in-Fuel Diagnosis).
•Air induction system leaks-Perform the Induction System Smoke Test in Charge Air Cooler Diagnosis (Induction System Smoke Test) (See: Powertrain Management\Computers and Control Systems\Testing and Inspection\Component Tests and General Diagnostics\Charge Air Cooler Diagnosis (Induction System Smoke Test))Charge Air Cooler Diagnosis (Charge Air Cooler Air Leak Test) (See: Powertrain Management\Computers and Control Systems\Testing and Inspection\Component Tests and General Diagnostics\Charge Air Cooler Diagnosis (Charge Air Cooler Air Leak Test))Charge Air Cooler Diagnosis (Full System Air Leak Test) (See: Powertrain Management\Computers and Control Systems\Testing and Inspection\Component Tests and General Diagnostics\Charge Air Cooler Diagnosis (Full System Air Leak Test)).
•Charge air cooler (CAC) leaks-Perform the Full System Air Leak Test and Induction System Smoke Test in Charge Air Cooler Diagnosis (Induction System Smoke Test) (See: Powertrain Management\Computers and Control Systems\Testing and Inspection\Component Tests and General Diagnostics\Charge Air Cooler Diagnosis (Induction System Smoke Test))Charge Air Cooler Diagnosis (Charge Air Cooler Air Leak Test) (See: Powertrain Management\Computers and Control Systems\Testing and Inspection\Component Tests and General Diagnostics\Charge Air Cooler Diagnosis (Charge Air Cooler Air Leak Test))Charge Air Cooler Diagnosis (Full System Air Leak Test) (See: Powertrain Management\Computers and Control Systems\Testing and Inspection\Component Tests and General Diagnostics\Charge Air Cooler Diagnosis (Full System Air Leak Test)).
•Exhaust system leaks. An exhaust system leak may cause inaccurate B131 exhaust temperature sensor or B154 exhaust pressure differential sensor values causing this DTC to set.
•Improperly installed or loose B131 exhaust gas temperature (EGT) sensors will cause inaccuracies in the soot model and cause this DTC to set.
•Q57 Indirect fuel injector leaking or restricted-Refer to Indirect Fuel Injector Diagnosis (See: Powertrain Management\Fuel Delivery and Air Induction\Fuel Injector\Testing and Inspection)
•Engine mechanical condition, for example low compression. Refer to Symptoms - Engine Mechanical (See: Engine, Cooling and Exhaust\Engine\Testing and Inspection\Symptom Related Diagnostic Procedures\Symptoms - Engine Mechanical).
¤ If a condition is found, repair as necessary.
3.Inspect the B154 exhaust pressure differential sensor system for any of the following conditions:
•Modifications
•Damaged components
•A skewed or shifted B154 exhaust pressure differential sensor. A sensor that is skewed will cause inaccuracies in the soot model and may cause this DTC to set. Refer to Component Testing.
•Loose or improperly installed components-Ensure the smaller diameter pressure line is connected to the rear of the exhaust particulate filter and to the smaller port of the B154 exhaust pressure differential sensor.
•Improperly routed differential pressure lines-The B154 exhaust pressure differential sensor line should have a continuous downward gradient without any sharp bends or kinks from the sensor to the DPF.
•Inspect the flexible part of the B154 exhaust pressure differential sensor lines for internal restrictions.
¤ If a condition is found, repair as necessary.
4.Ignition ON, observe the scan tool EGR Position Sensor and Desired EGR Position parameters while commanding the EGR solenoid to 20 percent and 0 percent. The values should remain equal to or less than 3 percent.
¤ If greater than the specified range, replace the Q14 exhaust gas recirculation valve and gaskets.
5.Test the charge air cooler (CAC) for leaks. Perform the Full System Air Leak Test and Induction System Smoke Test in Charge Air Cooler Diagnosis (Induction System Smoke Test) (See: Powertrain Management\Computers and Control Systems\Testing and Inspection\Component Tests and General Diagnostics\Charge Air Cooler Diagnosis (Induction System Smoke Test))Charge Air Cooler Diagnosis (Charge Air Cooler Air Leak Test) (See: Powertrain Management\Computers and Control Systems\Testing and Inspection\Component Tests and General Diagnostics\Charge Air Cooler Diagnosis (Charge Air Cooler Air Leak Test))Charge Air Cooler Diagnosis (Full System Air Leak Test) (See: Powertrain Management\Computers and Control Systems\Testing and Inspection\Component Tests and General Diagnostics\Charge Air Cooler Diagnosis (Full System Air Leak Test)).
6.If all components test normal, replace the diesel particulate filter.
Component Testing
1.Ignition OFF, remove the B154 exhaust pressure differential sensor.
2.Install a 3 A fused jumper wire between the 5 V reference circuit terminal 1 and the corresponding terminal of the B154 exhaust pressure differential sensor. Install a jumper wire between the low reference circuit terminal 3 of the B154 exhaust pressure differential sensor and ground.
3.Connect a DMM between terminal 2 of the B154 exhaust pressure differential sensor and ground.
4.Ignition ON, with the J-23738-A or J-35555 connected to the B154 exhaust pressure differential sensor rear pressure port, slowly apply vacuum while monitoring the voltage on the DMM. The voltage should vary and transition smoothly without any spikes or dropouts.
¤ If the voltage is erratic, replace the B154 exhaust pressure differential sensor.
Repair Instructions
Perform the Diagnostic Repair Verification (See: Verification Tests) after completing the repair.
•Exhaust Particulate Filter Replacement (03 Series) (See: Maintenance\Filters\Diesel Emissions Fluid Filter\Service and Repair\Exhaust Particulate Filter Replacement (03 Series))Exhaust Particulate Filter Replacement (53 Series) (See: Maintenance\Filters\Diesel Emissions Fluid Filter\Service and Repair\Exhaust Particulate Filter Replacement (53 Series))Exhaust Particulate Filter Replacement (43 Series) (See: Maintenance\Filters\Diesel Emissions Fluid Filter\Service and Repair\Exhaust Particulate Filter Replacement (43 Series))
•Exhaust Pressure Differential Sensor Pipe Replacement (See: Powertrain Management\Emission Control Systems\Diesel Emissions Fluid Pressure Sensor\Service and Repair\Exhaust Pressure Differential Sensor Pipe Replacement)
•Exhaust Pressure Differential Sensor Replacement (See: Powertrain Management\Emission Control Systems\Diesel Emissions Fluid Pressure Sensor\Service and Repair\Exhaust Pressure Differential Sensor Replacement)
•Perform the following scan tool reset procedures:
1.NOx Catalyst Reductant Loading Reset
2.NOx Catalyst Reset
3.DPF/Catalyst 2 Reset
4.Perform the Diesel Particulate Filter (DPF) Service Regeneration (See: Engine, Cooling and Exhaust\Exhaust System\Diesel Particle Filter (DPF)\Service and Repair\Diesel Particulate Filter (DPF) Service Regeneration) procedure to reset the DPF diagnostic variables.
What I could find on this code seems pretty wide scope to look at.
So do you think it might be a little hard to narrow down a regeneration issue?
If I were to guess GM's goal keep them coming back until the warranty wears out. :mad:
Hi; I'm new to this site, and I just bought a double wheeler chevy. Could You please explain to me what are You talking about, when You say regen, and how to do it, or the engine will do it automatically?
Thanks; DieselTom
The engine will do it automatically. in the truck manual it tells the consumer 1 clean out per tank. A tank is about 450-550 miles. Unfortunately, some trucks and some consumers out there are having issues with the amount of times the truck actually regenerates (performs a clean out). There are some trucks that function fine, other have issues still under warranty, some end up deleting (removing emissions by the EPA). Ash or smoke.
The issue I have is that GM cannot finger point the problem and fix my truck. I have had regeneration issues since I pulled the vehicle out of the dealer lot almost 2 years ago. I have had it back in and out of the dealer multiple times asking why my truck was regenerating every 450, 350 & 250 miles. There were times I pulled the truck into the same dealer just because they could not find the problem and the easiest way was to delete the codes. The truck has not been programmed, chipped, altered in any way except for me changing the cold air intake. That switch out took place after the truck was going through a regeneration every 200 miles.
Rumor is once you have a problem with the LML you always will have a problem. What else could be harmed in the engine? If GM cannot figure out how to fix a constant regeneration issue, how do they know what is going on inside the vehicle's engine. What happens when the warranty is gone?
FYI, stock intake was 17-19MMPG on the freeway, for the most part level terrain. Aftermarket intake, last trip between 22-23MPG. No programming, yet, still stock.
I had a rogue DTC set the other day for P007D intake/CAC temp ckt failure.
Drove seemingly fine but soot load racked up very quickly. Soot was at 31g when I got home and cleared the code. Light stayed off and no further issues. Soot level remained stable at 31g for a couple hundred miles once the truck was running normal. I was not driving when it did the regen, but I'm reasonably certain that it was at 700 miles like clockwork. I just happened to check the soot, saw it was 12g and realized that I missed the regen. The trip was at like 795 by the time I caught this.
My first post...
While changing oil on my 2009 LMM, I noticed the rear DPF differential pressure sensor tube was broken where it exits the fitting on the DPF. It was a clean break just above its threaded coupler. I have no way of knowing how long it was broken. It seems to me that the sensor would think the pressure differential was too high, but I did not notice any increased regeneration cycle frequency. However, my driving habits may have impaired my senses; I am usually looking on the right shoulder for hitch-hiking Swedish twin sisters.
The replacement part number is 25799002. I ordered one from the dealer yesterday. It arrived today. $90.76 plus tax. It consists of both the front and rear pressure tubes, couplers, routing clamps, bracket, and flexible hoses that go to the pressure sensor.
I removed the broken rear tube with a 17mm 12pt socket and long handled ratchet and some PB Blaster. A 6pt socket would have been better.
I took the rear tube off the new assembly and installed it along with the new flex hose. Tools used were a 17mm open end wrench for the coupler, two 13mm socket wrenches for the center bolts and nuts of the tube routing clamps, and pliers for the spring clamps on the hose. Now back on the road.
A few of things I noticed:
1. The flex hose has a very thin plastic lining that can easily be collapsed while pushing it on to the tube or sensor. One side of the lining can get bent inward and block the passage while the outside braided cover still looks normal.
2. The new coupler has black thread sealant preapplied to its threads. It took a couple of careful trials to prevent cross threading in to the bung on the DPF.
3. The manual actually tells you to look for loose or damaged pressure lines and sensors on the DPF every 25,000 miles. Hmmm...?
4. I could not found these Swedish twins on my test drive.
Drive on.
My 3500 LML has been at dealer #2 for 2 weeks so far. Replaced EGR valve, still building soot and still having constant regenerations issues. Technicians have been working on it and testing other suggestions with technical assistance. Probably another week yet.
Hey, GM, how about another truck????? Maybe one that works correctly?!?!?!?!
I'm so happy I have a Duramax that doesn't require regeneration.
a5150nut
09-19-2014, 17:58
I'm so happy I have a Duramax that doesn't require regeneration.
X2 and oh so happy!
GM Customer Service
09-22-2014, 07:26
Hello in4it,
I understand how frustrating frequent regens can be. I’m sorry you’ve experienced this with your LML and that it’s been at the dealership for a while. However, it’s good to hear the techs are diligently working on it for you! Please let me know if you’d like me to contact them for any follow ups. I’m happy to assist any way I can and will be on the lookout for updates.
Sincerely,
Eddie A.
GM Customer Care
Eddie,
Then you must know that the LML engines have this problem. How long has GM known that this was a problem? Why has there not been anything done to resolve the problem? I asked another 2015 owner who said he said he did not have a problem and that his had only triggered a regen after 2K miles.
What causes the problem? Seeing as how there is a litany of crap that it could be. The biggest worry is that after the warranty is up on the DPF after 50K, is the customer to eat the cost of a new DPF and installation after spending 60-70K on a new truck?
Obviously, you are familiar with this problem and GM knows about it. What else is going on inside the engine block with all the build up of soot? What other damage is being done internally to the engine. What else is being destroyed or damaged? If GM wants to make me go away, quit posting on multiple forums, quit calling daily to customer care, stop writing emails to the corporation, stop visiting dealers, stop asking questions, and visiting lawyer regarding the lemon laws, it is simple: give me a truck that functions like a 3500HD truck.
More Power
09-22-2014, 12:07
Eddie,
Then you must know that the LML engines have this problem. How long has GM known that this was a problem? Why has there not been anything done to resolve the problem? I asked another 2015 owner who said he said he did not have a problem and that his had only triggered a regen after 2K miles.
What causes the problem? Seeing as how there is a litany of crap that it could be. The biggest worry is that after the warranty is up on the DPF after 50K, is the customer to eat the cost of a new DPF and installation after spending 60-70K on a new truck?
Obviously, you are familiar with this problem and GM knows about it. What else is going on inside the engine block with all the build up of soot? What other damage is being done internally to the engine. What else is being destroyed or damaged? If GM wants to make me go away, quit posting on multiple forums, quit calling daily to customer care, stop writing emails to the corporation, stop visiting dealers, stop asking questions, and visiting lawyer regarding the lemon laws, it is simple: give me a truck that functions like a 3500HD truck.
It's really hard to get industry representatives to participate in message boards. Have you ever wondered why?
It's really hard to get industry representatives to participate in message boards. Have you ever wondered why?
Coming up to the 3rd week without a truck. Call the customer care number 866 790-5700 ext 41542. Tell Jennifer you are having regeneration issues and you want to get a case number. She is working with the dealer where my truck is at. If she hears that more people call in to say they have a problem something might be done. Tell her you heard it on a public forum about the issue.
GM Customer Service
09-24-2014, 09:44
In4it,
Please understand I’m unable to provide technical advice as I’m not trained as a technician. We rely heavily on our GM certified dealers for their technical expertise as they are our eyes and ears in the field. They diagnose and repair on a case by case basis due to varying circumstances. As I mentioned, I’d be glad to contact your dealer for a follow up and ensure they’re using all their resources to assist you. Private message me if interested. Again, I’m sorry for all of your frustrations.
Sincerely,
Eddie A.
GM Customer Care
More Power
09-24-2014, 09:58
It was some years ago now, but I talked to a guy who was once a state arbitrator who worked with both automakers and vehicle owners, helping to settle warranty or service disputes.
The single most important fact to come out of our discussion was that the vehicle owner must always present themselves as someone who is reasonable and possible to satisfy. Those who present themselves as angry sue-mongers won't be (cannot be) helped. The traditional court system is for them. If someone wants a full account for what to do in a dispute, let me know. The arbitrator and I wrote an article that outlines how to deal with the system and have the best chance of getting what you want.
The single most important fact to come out of our discussion was that the vehicle owner must always present themselves as someone who is reasonable and possible to satisfy. Those who present themselves as angry sue-mongers won't be (cannot be) helped. The traditional court system is for them. If someone wants a full account for what to do in a dispute, let me know. The arbitrator and I wrote an article that outlines how to deal with the system and have the best chance of getting what you want.
More Power,
I am reasonable. It is possible to satisfy me. Give me a new vehicle that works. Pretty simple! it is a reasonable request. I spent 60-70K on a truck and an additional $4 OR MORE thus far. I was fooled and was sold a truck with problems. If GM had a solution it should have come within the first 3-6 months, NOT, almost 2 yrs. later and their is still no solution.
I am not sue happy, but, I am entitled to seek legal counsel regarding the lemon law, which I have done.
rapidoxidationman
09-24-2014, 16:59
........The arbitrator and I wrote an article that outlines how to deal with the system and have the best chance of getting what you want.
I'd be interested in reading that article, whether you post it here, link it, or send me a link via PM.
Knowledge never hurts...
More Power
09-25-2014, 09:49
I am not sue happy, but, I am entitled to seek legal counsel regarding the lemon law, which I have done.
I know you didn't know, but if you had posted a list of things you'd done to help solve this problem, and was at the end of ideas for a solution (before threatening legal action), I would have helped - by pointing out what options were available to you and providing knowledge about how the system works. Once legal action is brought into the mix, there is nothing I or anyone else can do for you.
For everyone else, I will update the arbitrator piece, and put it back on the web site - good solid information that doesn't create barriers.
More Power,
As a consumer I bought a truck. GM built the vehicle. The vehicle never worked properly!!!! For me and obviously other LML owners. Now it is OUR issue? The vehicle has been back to the dealer for constant regeneration issues since December 2012. I bough it November 2012. Same issue to date. What options do we have?
Update:
I called the dealer on 9-19 to find out about my truck and when I might see it. The Service Tech called me back to let me know that they still have not found the problem and that the truck was still having constant regenerations and building soot to quickly. The message said that they would need till next week. I called GM Customer Care and left a message on 9-19 and 9-22. Jennifer called me back on Monday to tell me that the dealer had to order another part. That being known I did not get another call until the afternoon of 9-25. Jennifer called and asked if I had heard from the dealer. I told her no. Curiosity set in. I called the Service Tech just after 4pm yesterday to find out how work was progressing. He said that his Management told him to stop working on the truck. Then he asked if I received a call from his managers. He told me that I voided the vehicle warranty. He said that the would talk to his manager and call me back. I have not heard anything since. I called back Customer Care and talked to Jennifer to find out what was going on. I told her that I will call back the dealer between 10-11 today if I do not hear anything.
If I voided the vehicle warranty by installing an aftermarket cold air intake system, why was this not pointed out after the multiple times the dealers seen the vehicle. Why did both dealers continue to do warranty service work after seeing the system on the vehicle since the summer of last year? Why is it an issue now? When I dropped the truck back off on 9-8 with the stock intake system was the after market system removed and the vehicle tested? How was the performance? Same results?
I am guessing that GM cannot pin point the problem.
DmaxMaverick
09-26-2014, 09:42
Installing aftermarket equipment doesn't "void" any warranty (Magnussen-Moss Act). However, installing aftermarket equipment may cause a denial of warranty coverage if the needed repair/correction is caused or affected by an aftermarket equipment installation, or modification of OEM equipment.
If your too-frequent regeneration issue is due to excessive soot, the "cold air intake" may be related, somewhat, to the dealer and GM's handling of the issue. To start with, if may contribute to some of their skepticism. Many (most, probably) folks who add engine performance modifications don't usually stop at just an intake system. Meaning, to the dealer/GM, you probably also had some sort of fueling/power modification (whether you actually did or not).
This means:
If you, or a previous owner, did actually install an electronic power device, or modify the system to provide more fuel/power, whether or not that was your initial intent, the expected result may be excessive soot, requiring more frequent regenerations. Result: warranty denied, for that repair/complaint.
Or,
The truck has never had any fueling modifications, but the dealer/GM assumes it does/did, supported by evidence of some sort (like other performance modifications, in their opinion). Result: warranty denied, for that repair/complaint.
All that said, you may have, intentionally or otherwise, caused a warranty denial situation by installing the cold air intake system. These systems often do more than only allow cold air into the engine. The MAF, temperature and pressure sensors are mounted to the air intake system, and rely on the airflow velocities and routing for accurate sensor data the PCM uses to determine fuel and injection timing maps. Modifying the OEM air intake system, in almost any way, will have some affect on the airflow through the plumbing and into the engine. This alone may cause issues with fuel, timing and emission parameters. Restoring the intake to the OEM configuration should correct this issue, but may take some time/miles to actually show a positive result.
Another possibility, looking at it in the most simple way I can think of (and not heard mention of), is a leaking DPF fuel injector (not that a fuel injector would ever leak). This could cause excessive soot, and would likely cause more frequent regeneration.
installing aftermarket equipment doesn't "void" any warranty (magnussen-moss act). However, installing aftermarket equipment may cause a denial of warranty coverage if the needed repair/correction is caused or affected by an aftermarket equipment installation, or modification of oem equipment.
who determines this?
if your too-frequent regeneration issue is due to excessive soot, the "cold air intake" may be related, somewhat, to the dealer and gm's handling of the issue. To start with, if may contribute to some of their skepticism. Many (most, probably) folks who add engine performance modifications don't usually stop at just an intake system. Meaning, to the dealer/gm, you probably also had some sort of fueling/power modification (whether you actually did or not).
no nothing else was changed. The stock intake was brought back to the dealer to be reinstalled if required to perform additional tests. The regeneration issues were seen prior to the installation of the after market cold air intake system in the middle of the summer last year. Bone stock still was causing frequent regeneration problems.
this means:
If you, or a previous owner, did actually install an electronic power device, or modify the system to provide more fuel/power, whether or not that was your initial intent, the expected result may be excessive soot, requiring more frequent regenerations. Result: Warranty denied, for that repair/complaint.
i am the original owner and i have never installed or modified the trucks system.
or,
the truck has never had any fueling modifications, but the dealer/gm assumes it does/did, supported by evidence of some sort (like other performance modifications, in their opinion). Result: Warranty denied, for that repair/complaint.
i have called 3 times to the dealer and left 3 messages and have made 1 call to customer care today to find out why work stopped on the vehicle and i have not had a response from anyone.
all that said, you may have, intentionally or otherwise, caused a warranty denial situation by installing the cold air intake system. These systems often do more than only allow cold air into the engine. The maf, temperature and pressure sensors are mounted to the air intake system, and rely on the airflow velocities and routing for accurate sensor data the pcm uses to determine fuel and injection timing maps. Modifying the oem air intake system, in almost any way, will have some affect on the airflow through the plumbing and into the engine. This alone may cause issues with fuel, timing and emission parameters. Restoring the intake to the oem configuration should correct this issue, but may take some time/miles to actually show a positive result.
again, it is documented in my service report that the vehcile had the problem with the original stock intake system on the vehicle before i looked into other options to improve mpg not performance.
another possibility, looking at it in the most simple way i can think of (and not heard mention of), is a leaking dpf fuel injector (not that a fuel injector would ever leak). This could cause excessive soot, and would likely cause more frequent regeneration.
One more thing, if i have taken the vehicle back into the dealer for the same thing repeated times and everything has been covered under warranty why wait until now?????
because they want me to go away? Only thing i want is a truck that works like it should. It never did.
Installing aftermarket equipment doesn't "void" any warranty (Magnussen-Moss Act). However, installing aftermarket equipment may cause a denial of warranty coverage if the needed repair/correction is caused or affected by an aftermarket equipment installation, or modification of OEM equipment.
This means:
The truck has never had any fueling modifications, but the dealer/GM assumes it does/did, supported by evidence of some sort (like other performance modifications, in their opinion). Result: warranty denied, for that repair/complaint.
The way I read it, COP OUT!!!!
A person who fails to fulfill a commitment or responsibility. 3. An excuse for inaction or evasion. cop′-out`
GM does not know how to fix the problem.
rapidoxidationman
09-26-2014, 14:21
Eddie,
Then you must know that the LML engines have this problem. How long has GM known that this was a problem? Why has there not been anything done to resolve the problem? I asked another 2015 owner who said he said he did not have a problem and that his had only triggered a regen after 2K miles.
What causes the problem? Seeing as how there is a litany of crap that it could be. The biggest worry is that after the warranty is up on the DPF after 50K, is the customer to eat the cost of a new DPF and installation after spending 60-70K on a new truck?
Obviously, you are familiar with this problem and GM knows about it. What else is going on inside the engine block with all the build up of soot? What other damage is being done internally to the engine. What else is being destroyed or damaged? If GM wants to make me go away, quit posting on multiple forums, quit calling daily to customer care, stop writing emails to the corporation, stop visiting dealers, stop asking questions, and visiting lawyer regarding the lemon laws, it is simple: give me a truck that functions like a 3500HD truck.
I wonder if this might have anything to do with why GM suddenly decided to stop working on your truck... Sometimes it is best to keep your "behind the scenes" activities behind the scenes and not on a public forum that the company in question has representatives on.
Just a guess.
Still sucks that your truck is being a FORD (fixed or repaired daily)...
If you bought the truck in Nov 2012 and the problem was addressed to the dealer in Dec 2012 it has had a problem since it was new. When did you install the cold air intake? I doubt that you installed it during the first month of ownership.
CoyleJR, Mid-Summer 2013.
I wonder if this might have anything to do with why GM suddenly decided to stop working on your truck... Sometimes it is best to keep your "behind the scenes" activities behind the scenes and not on a public forum that the company in question has representatives on.
Just a guess.
Still sucks that your truck is being a FORD (fixed or repaired daily)...
rapidoxidationman,
With all respect, I do not have a problem posting my issue on a public forum. I know there are more people out there that are suffering from GM's issue that they cannot solve.
Last I remember this is a free country. I consulted a lemon lawyer to find out options. Is this my preferred method to deal with the issue, NO. I made a simple request to the District Manager who is hiding behind his position to replace my truck. They have not provided a solution to the problem for almost 2 years and GM STILL DOES NOT have a solution. The truck has been in and out of service for more than 30 days for the same issue. How else can you make a PIA go away? Cut him off when it is going to cost him money.
Well, it still does not solve the problem. There are many more LML vehicle owners that have the same problem and nothing is being done.
Remember, if a consumer purchases a vehicle from the OEM and they buy an extended warranty, the OEM has to honor the warranty. GM just cannot find any excuse to not work on the vehicle. The problem was there from day one when the vehicle left the lot after purchase. They sold their problem to me. I did not ask for it. I simply asked to have it fixed for over 2 years now.
More Power
09-29-2014, 10:18
There have been times in the past where a GM truck owner installed some aftermarket part, and then GM denied warranty coverage they claim was related.
The resolution was arbitration. Reps from GM and reps from the aftermarket provided proof, and an arbitrator made a decision that everyone agreed to - that was outside of the legal system.
Once a truck owner initiates a court action, the arbitration system cannot be used - it gets very expensive and it can take years to resolve. Everyone hates the other. Arbitration is the better choice nearly every time. Always - always try arbitration before engaging in legal action. But, as you pointed out, this is a free country.
More Power,
Legal advise was sought. Not retained. Who determines arbitration?
More Power
09-29-2014, 12:47
More Power,
Legal advise was sought. Not retained. Who determines arbitration?
Most states have an arbitrator who is the recognized and legal means of consumer action between vehicle owners and automobile manufacturers under your state’s Lemon Law. Your state’s Better Business Bureau and Attorney General’s office will be able to provide you with the necessary information to initiate a consumer action involving arbitration. Jim
Hello in4it,
I understand how frustrating frequent regens can be. I’m sorry you’ve experienced this with your LML and that it’s been at the dealership for a while. However, it’s good to hear the techs are diligently working on it for you! Please let me know if you’d like me to contact them for any follow ups. I’m happy to assist any way I can and will be on the lookout for updates.
Sincerely,
Eddie A.
GM Customer Care
You know what is sad? When you leave your vehicle at a dealer for over a month and you still have the same problem even after 2 years after purchase. Both district managers know about the problem. Then they tell you that we are canceling your warranty on this issue and you have to pay out of your own pocket for something we cannot resolve. If you show up with an open check book later it might cost $2000 dollars to try and potentially solve the problem by replacing the ECM, the people in charge do not know if that will solve the problem. So why would I cut a check? So it may end up costing more????? This is pathetic!!
Give us 24-48 hours. You will hear back on Friday. Monday comes around, give us another 24-48 hours. Really? What's next?
I still think there is software problem related to the algorithms calculating the soot grams.
"The regeneration parameters are still based on time, distance, fuel and soot loading, but the algorithms used to determine regeneration now allow more time between generation events."
http://www.merchant-automotive.com/tech/lml.pdf (http://www.merchant-automotive.com/tech/lml.pdf)
Which goes back to my comment in the past about this being a software problem and the truck can be programmed. There are technicians that have programmed trucks to go longer between regenerations, but, what is right? What is the correct time between regenerations to ensure engine and internal component longevity?
It is not related to the ECM or how many times the vehicles computer has been flashed. The ECM would have more problems if that were the real problem. From my investigations.
If the differential pressure sensor was replaced 8-18 through 8-22, and, both the old and the new sensors did not alter the constant regenerations, did anyone check the pressure in the system through the DPF? The system could be calculating higher soot because the DPF filter is plugged. The test during 9-8 thru 9-26 "found the DPF sensor reading at 0 all times per 2459 could not move EGR valve. Replace sensor and EGR all working now. Still regens"
The next thing I would like checked is the wire harness throughout the vehicle. From my investigations, there might be loose pins in some of the connector plugs that maybe shorting out.
The aftermarket air filter has nothing to do with this problem so I have been told. It is not a MAFS because all it does is calculate the air temp coming in and reporting how much fuel to mix. I had told the service team that the stock intake was in the back of the truck when it was dropped off on 9-8 at the dealer. I offered to pay for the installation to check the system both ways. To my knowledge the stock intake was not installed or tested when I picked up the truck on 9-26. I am still having the same issues. Now that the EGR valve has been worked on, an even bigger white cloud of smoke emits from the tail pipe 1/4 to a 1/2 mile long after picking up the truck on 9-26.
At this point, without any testing equipment and not being a GM Technician, I think that the injector in the down pipe before the SCR is the culprit. Why? Because of the additional white smoke out of the tail pipe at the start of a regeneration. This was part of the GM bulletin that was released in Sept. 2011 regarding the 9th injector and the spray pattern. http://www.archivedsites.com/techlink/2011/09/duramax-diesel-exhaust-system-fluid-injectors.html (http://www.archivedsites.com/techlink/2011/09/duramax-diesel-exhaust-system-fluid-injectors.html)
I have re-installed the stock intake, which took 35 minutes, since the dealer did not do it over the course of 3 weeks. This problem is NOT something that I did to the truck it was there at purchase and documented.
I have offered solutions. I am not going away!
Regens still take place every 100 miles up to this point. I will monitor the CTS to see what kind of changes there are between the 2 intake systems. There was a difference installing a new air filter and it extended the regenerations. It made them more regular.
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