The P0087 Saga Continues

[richp]

Hi,

I’m modifying and moving this content from the Sticky I previously had posted in, to try to get some feedback. Moderators, if this is a problem, feel free to delete.

I just returned to Illinois from Quartzsite towing my 12,000# fiver. I have 123k miles on the '09 LMM at this point. I had no problems going down in January, but several P0087 episodes on my return last week – big hills, a couple hours into the day, lower fuel level in the tank (the usual culprits, evidently).

This is an absolutely stock truck, with auxiliary filtration, regular Power Service throughout its life, regular filter changes, and regular Chevy dealer service at the same competent location. No lift pump (duly noted, John).

Obviously, working through the P0087 Sticky thread gives possible short and long term answers. But my solution for getting home the last 1,000 miles -- starting in western Oklahoma -- was to keep post turbo EGT's in the 1,000 degree range, and never more than 1,100. I used that as a proxy for the temps the injectors and incoming fuel were experiencing. I did this by doing a lot of manual gear selection on hills. (I recall only one post in that entire Sticky thread that mentions that approach.)

My dealer has just had it for two days, and as I expected, found nothing wrong. The injectors tested solid (as they did just before I left actually). No codes were remaining, of course. And absent the load from towing a heavy trailer on hills for hours while hot, there was no way to get their equipment to register my issue. In addition, at my request they inspected all fuel lines (solid or already replaced), the fuel cooler (clean), and they found no leaks anywhere.

These are two guys who know the truck since new, have serviced it thoroughly and regularly, and otherwise have my confidence. They did offer a thought that freeing up the exhaust might help keep overall temps down and thus keep the returned fuel cooler. Coming from a dealership, I found that interesting.

But for now I'm guess I'm going to drive on carefully, and see what the future holds.

Any thoughts on the exhaust change idea from anyone? How about my strategy of using EGT as a proxy for fueling performance? Or for that matter, on any other recent developments on this P0087 code problem for medium age trucks that work hard?

Thanks for your ideas.

[richp]

Hi,

Thinking about this some more...

If I go down the road clearing my codes as they pop up (something others have done), does that accelerate wear in the injectors, speeding their eventual demise?

[More Power]

Rich, the following two subscriber articles appeared here some time ago. They were written to help address the trouble code P0087 in the LMM trucks (and earlier LB7/LLY codes) that correspond with rail pressure problems (difference between commanded and actual fuel rail pressures exceeding 20Mpa).

Are high mile injectors allowing too much return fuel, which result in a P0087? GM shows in their service manuals how to perform a fuel return test using graduated cylinders that helps the technician measure fuel return flow over time. The first link shows the test setup, and explains how its used.

https://www.thedieselpage.com/members/features/p0087c.htm (https://www.thedieselpage.com/members/features/p0087c.htm)
https://www.thedieselpage.com/members/duramax/April2008DTCc.htm (https://www.thedieselpage.com/members/duramax/April2008DTCc.htm)

Techs tell me that a lot of trucks that approach their 10-year mark frequently have surface-clogged fuel return coolers. Mud, leaves, you name it, all restrict air flow over/through the cooler.

[richp]

Hi Jim,

Thanks for that response. I had read the first linked piece, but not the second one. The Sticky thread and John's tech piece rounded out my major research.

The bottom line seems either to be that this generation of injectors is vulnerable to wear and/or fuel viscosity changes, or the ECM programming is dysfunctionally narrow. (I include the latter because John seems to have attacked it somewhat successfully from that angle.)

My hoses, filter housing and filter have been replaced. The injectors all are strong in every test in the shop. The pump is putting out per spec. My GM guys have checked the cooler and lines, and I will do that again when I get some decent weather. (We just talked this morning about the possibilities of an auxiliary fuel cooler.) But there is no way to get them involved in more useful testing 200 miles into a day, going up some big hill towing a 12k trailer -- duplicating the problem with prolonged, sustained load and elevated temperatures. I can drive it all day unloaded in any weather, with no problem.

You know I love GM products. But pickup trucks built to work -- as our diesels are -- surely could have more longevity built into key, very expensive parts. Or is this the unavoidable legacy of always-advancing emission requirements and associated engineering compromises?

Color me frustrated and mildly disapointed...

[More Power]

I talked to a guy a few years ago who had a 2009 model he used to pull a 5ver that was experiencing the P0087 code problem... till he installed a large auxiliary fuel tank in the bed of the truck. He ran a fuel transfer system (don't remember the details) that cycled fuel through the aux tank and his frame mounted tank. This effectively ended his P0087 problem. Hot thin fuel, as he discovered, was a key factor in his P0087s, or at least cooler fuel masked the root cause. Jim

[Kennedy]

Lift pump, tune it, drive it. If the conditions still exist the P0087 will set and check engine light will be on but truck will drive right through. If the instance increase significantly it's time for injectors.

I'll also note that I have done tunes for trucks that have had GM sourced injectors installed and NOT fixed the issue. I've had guys change injectors and repeat in less miles than the originals as well. Tune and move on

As for the testing quite often they will pass the stationary tests as the temp/psi/time does not accurately simulate real world.

That or just take my word for it having had injectors bench tested and seeing the obvious fail its the reason

[richp]

Hi John,

Thanks for your additional input. Your published materials on this also have been quite helpful to me.

Do you or anyone else know what pressure exists in the return lines from the injectors to the tank? An additional option I'm considering is a second fuel cooler, but location could be an issue, depending on the available hardware. Something like this...

http://www.jegs.com/i/Derale/259/13256/10002/-1?CAWELAID=1710901565&CAGPSPN=pla&CAAGID=53966302310&CATCI=pla-324540298760&CATARGETID=230006180039218749&cadevice=m&gclid=CjwKCAjwhcjVBRBHEiwAoDe5x4Zd-J-QeqjAkfb72flGdTRKQeL3ooJEAy2d2weFRViMJ4VEpQNz5RoCs DEQAvD_BwE

Any thoughts, anyone?

[Kennedy]

Return line pressure should be minimal. There is an orifice at the end of the line but it's open.

Cool it all you want, put a fan on it even. I've seen it all. Sometimes you get lucky, but most often not.

[More Power]

If I were faced with this P0087 problem, I would do as JK said... Add a lift pump, retune the ECM to accept a wider tolerance for an acceptable common-rail pressure differential, then keep driving it till injector replacement becomes unavoidable.

[richp]

If I were faced with this P0087 problem, I would do as JK said... Add a lift pump, retune the ECM to accept a wider tolerance for an acceptable common-rail pressure differential, then keep driving it till injector replacement becomes unavoidable.

Hi,

Yeah, but that is a tough pill to swallow if there is even a modest chance a second fuel cooler, better management of the level of fuel in the tank, or other less costly options could have promise.

This is doubly hard for me. First, we buy these trucks because they are supposed to work long and hard. And I don't readily accept the proposition that 120,000 miles is acceptable life for such high cost components. Second, because to adopt the strategy suggested in the above paragraph, I'm resisting the considered advice of two guys whom I respect, and who know a lot more about this than I do.

Color me conflicted...

[More Power]

Rich,
I've received quite a few emails and phone calls where the truck owner expressed dismay or even anger over the possibility that the injectors needed to be replaced. It's never-ever a good time. Most believe the injectors should last for as long as they own the truck.

This bristling resistance to injector replacement happened a lot less often with 6.5L diesel owners, largely because the injectors were/are a tenth the cost. 6.5 injectors needed to be replaced when engine roughness, start-ability, fuel economy or performance said it was time, which usually wound up being in the 100-150K mile range.

Additional coolers, aux fuel tanks and other less costly attempts to solve the problem might help, but not likely long-term. A hot summer day, a heavy load and hot thin fuel are hard to avoid for some truck owners.

I know a guy (and you know him too) who simply traded his truck in for a newer model when faced with the same situation. That's one way to deal with it.

Another way to deal with it is to acquire an aftermarket engine warranty that covers the fuel injection system, once the factory warranty expires. This... could be the best way to deal with the specter of a breath-taking repair bill. Insurance coverage for the fuel injection system won't be cheap, but it'll be easier for most owners to deal with than spending a thick stack of $100 bills on injector replacement.

When it's all said and done, at the end of the day, and after the fat lady has sung, following JK's advice really is the best choice for those P0087 owners who are without an extended warranty.

[richp]

Hi Jim,

I know, I know.... But the Sticky sadly relates instances where neither John's fix nor new injectors were a cure. That's a pretty daunting prospect.

For sure, the days of me changing fifty dollar 6.2 injectors in my driveway are long gone.

[rapidoxidationman]

Question for the OP, and for others who have experienced this problem:
Do you regularly use a fuel additive at each fill-up or do you burn the fuel as it is dispensed from the filling station pump?

[richp]

Hi rapid,

I have faithfully used Power Service since day one, in every tank. Auxiliary fuel filtration almost from day one, with regular filter changes.

Right now I'm sort of looking for some old posts I vaguely recall about bad fuel caps and power codes. But in any case, today I was reduced to digging out my old -- but essentially new -- stock cap and replacing my locking cap.

Of course I will not be able to test any theory until I tow again on a long trip in warm weather.

I must look pathetic to John Kennedy (grin) But investing the combined cost of his lift pump and tune on a 123,000 mile truck gives me pause, particularly when scattered posts in the Sticky indicate that not every older truck with 0087 gets fixed by going that route (and scarily, or even with new injectors.)

[DieselDavy]

Rich,
I'll second Jim's advice to follow JK solution. Your dealer techs see a small subset of Trucks sold in your area. So they may have see a few that are having issues like you are seeing.
In JK's case. His business is like a lightning rod for problem trucks. He sees trucks from all over the country that seek him out to cure this same problem.
Looking at the cost of his suggested cure isn't that bad compared to an injector replacement or truck replacement. Call JK and enjoy life!
dave

[More Power]

I also have to get this in here.... When faced with the cost of new injectors some owners look online for cheap parts. I should post a montage of messages I've received some day from owners who bought a set of injectors on eBay, Craig's List or even Amazon, thinking they'd save a couple thou $ on costs....

When asked about the cheap stuff, I answer by saying that the cheap part sellers aren't Bosch reman centers or even authorized Bosch dealers. Many of the parts are super cheap overseas copies that fail soon after installation - if they even work at all. Then, what happens is the owner is out the cost of the cheap stuff, the labor to install them and the cheap part seller has to be held at gunpoint and forced to take them back. It's such an awful experience that some truck owners give up on their diesel pickup.

So, only buy your parts from dealers who have a reputation to defend. For most of us anywhere in the country, this means buying parts from your local Bosch reman/retail center - or vendors who advertise here. Only vendors who take care of people advertise here.

[richp]

Hi Jim,

Duly noted....

Just got off the phone with John Kennedy, setting up a trip to the north country.

[More Power]

To answer your question about whether a performance-oriented exhaust system could help lower exhaust temperatures, I actually performed an extensive test some years ago using a Duramax powered truck I owned to answer that question. Here are the results from that towing test (towing a 7,000-lb trailer on a 6% grade). As you can see, the exhaust temperature remained the same for each run, though there was a measurable improvement in performance.

Stock power w/stock exhaust: Boost 21 lbs, EGT 1275 degrees, speed 62-mph 4th gear
Stock power w/Magnaflow exhaust: Boost 21.5-lbs, EGT 1275 degrees, speed 64-mph, 4th gear

You can see the full exhaust system review here:
https://www.thedieselpage.com/reviews/magnaflowc.htm

[richp]

Hi Jim,

Thanks for the link -- interesting info.

I've driven by the EGT and boost gauges since I started running turbos years ago. I always felt that the EGT in particular was a critical representation of what is going on in there, and that managing those temps conservatively is a good way to prolong the life of the engine.

[Kennedy]

I also have to get this in here.... When faced with the cost of new injectors some owners look online for cheap parts. I should post a montage of messages I've received some day from owners who bought a set of injectors on eBay, Craig's List or even Amazon, thinking they'd save a couple thou $ on costs....

When asked about the cheap stuff, I answer by saying that the cheap part sellers aren't Bosch reman centers or even authorized Bosch dealers. Many of the parts are super cheap overseas copies that fail soon after installation - if they even work at all. Then, what happens is the owner is out the cost of the cheap stuff, the labor to install them and the cheap part seller has to be held at gunpoint and forced to take them back. It's such an awful experience that some truck owners give up on their diesel pickup.

So, only buy your parts from dealers who have a reputation to defend. For most of us anywhere in the country, this means buying parts from your local Bosch reman/retail center - or vendors who advertise here. Only vendors who take care of people advertise here.

Add to the list Diesel Logic, Diesel Care, Injectors direct, Pensacola etc. These are common names that I hear when people call with issues on trucks with "new" injectors. Sad part is I don't know where they go, but I seldom if ever get an opportunity to sell these callers the good stuff.


The only source I trust is Bosch to do the actual reman these injectors. Even my performance source does not waver from this and uses only the real deal as foundation for any custom work. There is one man in a major shop in TX that I dealt with on injector projects back in the early days that has a reman program that I think I could trust, but it's just so much safer to stick with the real deal.

[Kennedy]

I just set up an LB7 owner with a set of SAC 45's to replace his original injectors at something like 280k. I have purchase history back in 2003 Mega filter and FPPF Total Power since new with lift pump soon to follow. When he sent his cores in I marked them specifically so that they could be examined for overall wear condition. I believe they finally gave in to the blue smoke seep common to the VCO nozzle.

[More Power]

Hi Jim,

Thanks for the link -- interesting info.

I've driven by the EGT and boost gauges since I started running turbos years ago. I always felt that the EGT in particular was a critical representation of what is going on in there, and that managing those temps conservatively is a good way to prolong the life of the engine.

In that review you can see that adding performance surprisingly allowed for a lower EGT - sorta contrary to what logic might suggest.

[richp]

Hi,

OK, the deed is done.

Spent an interesting and informative time with John Kennedy yesterday in his shop, getting a dual lift pump and "Kill P0087" tune loaded. John says he tweaked torque a bit as well.

Time will tell, but I have high hopes.

[DieselDavy]

Rich,
Please keep us in the loop. We'd all love to hear how it turns out!
Dave

[richp]

Hi Davey,

It drove 300 plus miles back home yesterday no problem. The real test won't come until summer, when I start long trips with the heavy trailer. It has never coded running empty.

But I will give a full report for sure.

[More Power]

... The real test won't come until summer, when I start long trips with the heavy trailer.

I've reserved your space... ;)

[richp]

Hi Jim,

I'd love to visit with you and park it in that pasture up the hill again. But between a wedding in Texas and a bucket list New England tour in the Fall, none of my my travel will be that far west this year.

But Texas heat in early August should be a good test...

[richp]

Hi,

Time for an update.

A couple months ago, John Kennedy added a dual lift pump and changed the parameters in the ECM regarding the P0087 code. I also installed an Edge Insight CTS2.

I now have two 200 plus mile trips towing my big fiver under my belt -- the last one in 90 degree heat. In local driving, I had one very quick regen at about 450 miles at 37 soot. So far, no codes, towing or otherwise. The new monitor is particularly useful to me for keeping track of things like fuel temperature, which seems to be a factor in throwing the code on high mileage injectors.

Still learning and watching, but I am optimistic. The next big tests will be about 500 miles over into Iowa for July 4th, and then about 1,750 miles to Texas and back in early August. Time will tell...

[DieselDavy]

Good news! And good luck with the longer trips this summer!

[richp]

Hi,

A one year report on big fifth wheel towing performance with the Kennedy modifications.

The almost 2,000 mile trip towing to Texas in ferocious heat last summer was followed by about 5-600 miles of other miscellaneous towing later in the summer. The code appeared once on a long, very hot pull coming back from Austin, I cleared it, and didn't have any more on that trip.

I just returned from about 1,900 miles towing down and back to the Gulf coast for our winter snowbirding. No 0087 problems at all.

I pronounce it money well spent.

Rich Phillips

[DieselDavy]

Awesome Rich!
Safe Travels!

[More Power]

Thanks for keeping us up to date. P0087 has been a problem for lots of folks.

Jim

[Paul Clancy]

Hi Rich,
I am considering just what you've done with my 09 lmm -(90,000miles- occasional change filter p0087 limp on grades in 100deg heat) and have a few questions. I know you left your dpf in place(as I most likely will) and there were some regeneration issues - was that solved in tuning by John or where is that at?I have already added a fass 165 pump and replaced the filter head and lines there - otherwise stock well maintained truck. Now thinking JKs tune/ecm to keep me out of limp and get another 100k before injectors. Also edge cts2 for watching regens and other temps. Anything I'm missing?

Thanks Rich,
Paul

[richp]

Hi Paul,

I probably was over fixated on watching the regens at first. The Edge was a novelty at the time, and I watched every parameter closely, trying to learn more about what the engine was doing. Regens have absolutely been a non factor in the long run.

And aside from that one code last year, on a ferociusly hot day on a long hill pulling a 12+k# fiver, the original problem has simply gone away. Just hit 140k miles this week, and very happy I did it. John's a hero!

I do have some building questions about whether it's time for a new one. But that's another post...

I think you got it covered. Good luck.

Rich

[Paul Clancy]

Thanks for that info Rich. When your truck coded that one time on the hottest tow did it limp or let you carry on? Thats my whole worry is being stuck on the side of the road with no shoulder and family on board. Also if the dpf is working I'm pretty well good to order.

[richp]

Thanks for that info Rich. When your truck coded that one time on the hottest tow did it limp or let you carry on? Thats my whole worry is being stuck on the side of the road with no shoulder and family on board. Also if the dpf is working I'm pretty well good to order.

Hi Paul,

It threw the code and I cleared it on the fly with the Edge, while towing up a big interstate hill. Never happened again.

I know my other move might have been to chop the afterburner, but I am not wired to go further away from stock. I think when the time comes to sell or trade up, being close to stock will help a bit on value for many prospective buyers -- if only to demonstrate I've not been hot rodding. Color me old school and conservative ..

Rich

[Paul Clancy]

Kennedy ecm and edge insight in transit.

Thanks Rich (and John).

[Paul Clancy]

Got the edge cts2 and Kennedy ecm installed. First start did have change fuel filter on dic and oil life was down to 11per cent. Since both were fresh I reset olm and ff life. No cel, no p0087 but stored codes for def sensors and maf which I've not had previous. Cleared those. Emailed John and he said those were normal for first start. Went for a spirited drive and all was well - truck seems smoother with more pep for sure. Won't be towing for a while but looking forward to it.

[Kennedy]

Got the edge cts2 and Kennedy ecm installed. First start did have change fuel filter on dic and oil life was down to 11per cent. Since both were fresh I reset olm and ff life. No cel, no p0087 but stored codes for def sensors and maf which I've not had previous. Cleared those. Emailed John and he said those were normal for first start. Went for a spirited drive and all was well - truck seems smoother with more pep for sure. Won't be towing for a while but looking forward to it.


When we do an ECM swap the maintenance reminder percentages come over from the donor truck and need to be reset. DTC's should be automatically cleared after the ECM is flashed, but sometimes this is not the case. Drive it and see what it does. It may hit a point where it's unhappy about regen frequency to low, but it should work through that.

[Paul Clancy]

All makes perfect sense and was what I was figuring was happening. Not pulling to the Oregon Coast until the fall but may have to do a test run for fun before that. We live at the base of a major pass that climbs to 5700ft 6.5% grade for 20 miles. Should be a good test in the heat.

Thanks John
Paul

[richp]

Hi Paul,

Did you do a lift pump as well, or did you already have one?

Rich

[Paul Clancy]

Already had a fass titanium 165. Put on a couple years ago to stop p0087 -and it did seem to for 2 seasons but back again this year.

[richp]

Hi Paul,

Got it.

Here's hoping you got the solid cure you are looking for.

Rich

[Paul Clancy]

I hope so too. I actually like the truck a lot and it looks and functions like I bought it when new other than the p0087. But honestly if the tuned ecm fix - lift pump - edge insight -doesn't work I'm likely to sell truck, trailer, generator etc and holiday a different way. Injectors, hpfp etc exceed what I'm willing to spend, especially as the truck only has 90,000 miles. I'll try to report back here after the fall trip or if I do a hot weather test climb this summer.

Cheers,
Paul

[Paul Clancy]

First long tow and climb (vantage grade i90 out of Columbia gorge then I82 to yakima)went well. Truck was cool and no codes so pretty happy. Next pull was from Yakima up white pass to i5 and over to the Oregon coast. Also truck stayed cool and no codes. ambient was cooler than summer at about 75deg. Did get a clean exhaust filter message after dropping trailer in Yakima following the vantage and i82 up and downs. Went for a drive without trailer and soot back to zero. Good so far and happy with Johns tune. Love the insight for knowing how fuel temps and egts are. Used m5 and kept revs up. Don’t think the fan locked up once.

[richp]

Bravo!!!