View Full Version : Front Starter support Bracket, is this it?
DieselDavy
07-22-2018, 17:27
I haven't used one for over a decade, at least, but I think this is it. Can anyone confirm. I have a couple of the old larger starters with one of them being rebuilt already. I think I'm going to be needing it soon. I think this is a spare front support I had. Can't remember.
Thanks,
Dave
(I hope I have that photo attaching thing working....)
arveetek
07-22-2018, 19:51
Yes, that's it!
Casey
DieselDavy
07-23-2018, 02:50
I thought so! I may be old and suffering from CRS, but I was pretty sure that was it.
Thanks so much!
Tank removal/reinstall went well. Restart, not so much. I may start another tread (no start) for that one.
Dave
arveetek
07-23-2018, 06:18
Tank removal/reinstall went well. Restart, not so much. I may start another tread (no start) for that one.
Dave
Bummer. I have Kennedy's fuel pump harness which has the push button for manual fuel system priming, so I never had any issue restarting after dropping the tank. Opening the fuel filter bleed valve and running the lift pump to push the air out and priming the system always worked great for me.
Casey
More Power
07-23-2018, 06:59
I'd recommend using new starter bolts too - torqued to 40 ft-lbs, when the starter goes back on. Jim
All the above...
The "tail hook" on the starter is an absolute necessity to keep from having the block outer bolt snap the ear off the block.
Many engines have been run without the hook, but when the block breaks and the starter falls on the dirt, it's a sad day in the neighborhood...
REMEMBER
Getting the hook in place is a quick and easy job if ya remove the right front tire/wheel and the rubber flap on the inner fender.
You can sit on a bucket and connect the wires and the hook with ease...
https://www.thedieselpageforums.com/tdpforum/showthread.php?t=43423
Check out the link above
Scroll down to pics..."Access 2" has a great shot looking right in over the frame.
Starter and glow plug access is stellar through the opening..
I added an extra access port for the nasty number 8 glow plug...plus it allowed access to the heater hoses at the firewall, which are just nasty to get to.
Have fun
DieselDavy
07-23-2018, 07:54
Thanks to all three of you for the advice. The original starter is the smaller one that doesn't use the front bracket. I happen to have a couple of the original larger starters on the shelf from previous trucks, one of which is already rebuilt.
I'm pretty sure that the starter is pretty used up, BUT I will change out the batteries and check out the cables before deciding what to do with the starter. The new batteries may fix up the whole mess.
Now about the fuel. I've never had so much trouble starting after an interruption of fuel.
Every three or four starting sessions, (10 seconds only, then 10 to 30 minutes for cooling and charging) it will sputter to life, smooth out, sound good, then roll over (die) quickly.
I've tried putting a hose on the top of the filter assembly and turning the valve while the key is on and letting fuel run into a container. How much/long should this take? I've maybe run a quart through and still see air coming through. Filter changes have never been this painful, but I've not disconnected the tank nor done this with shot batteries.
I've also never had to crack the injector lines on this 6.5 like I have older ones to get the air out. Is that in my future?
Thanks again!
Dave
arveetek
07-23-2018, 12:51
Thanks to all three of you for the advice. The original starter is the smaller one that doesn't use the front bracket. I happen to have a couple of the original larger starters on the shelf from previous trucks, one of which is already rebuilt.
Thanks again!
Dave
First things first: ALL 6.2L/6.5L starters use a bracket. The earlier, direct-drive, heavier 6.2L starter and the later gear-drive, lighter 6.5L starter. If memory serves me correctly, the brackets are different between the two? I can't quite remember on that one. It's been nearly 10 years since I've owned a 6.2L now....
If you can get the engine to start, you don't need to crack the injector lines. If it starts and then stalls, it's still sucking air into the injection pump. You need to bleed all the air out before the injection pump. I use the Kennedy fuel pump harness to bleed mine; never had to bleed the 6.5L without it, so I don't have personal experience to guide you on that one, I'm afraid. Getting the fuel lift pump energized without the engine running is what you want to accomplish.
Casey
DmaxMaverick
07-23-2018, 12:53
......I've tried putting a hose on the top of the filter assembly and turning the valve while the key is on and letting fuel run into a container. How much/long should this take? I've maybe run a quart through and still see air coming through......
Bingo. You have a leak between the lift pump and fuel tank sender/inlet, above the fuel level.
Another seldom mentioned issue like this CAN OCCUR when the safety valve in the tank takes a poop.
The valve is above the sock and will allow fuel to bypass a plugged sock.
Once in a while the valve and or its spring will go away and then when the fuel level drops below 1/2 more likely in the 1/4 tank range the pump sucks air.
If your fuel level is in the 1/4 range it could be a failed safety valve.
IF THE LEVEL IS LOW...TRY ADDING SOME FUEL AND SEE IF THE ISSUE STOPS
Good luck
The reason for the tail hook on the starter is not the weight of the starter, but instead the bending moment that occurs while the starter is cranking the engine.
The small gear drive starters need the tail hook as much as the big direct drives do
DieselDavy
07-24-2018, 05:34
To be clear, I've just dropped the tank and installed a new fuel pickup/sending unit. My inspection didn't detect any obvious glaring issues, so I'd like to think the new part is good to go. Lines all seemed to be solid and tight when I re installed the tank.
To bleed some of the air out, I put a clear tube on the valve on the top of the fuel filter housing. Turned on the ignition and opened the valve. Pumped less then a quart of fuel through it and bubbles were seen during the whole event. I didn't know how long it might take? Any ideas on how long I'd have to run fuel through it to clear the air?
(I'm installing new batteries tonight, optima red tops unless someone tells me different! I discovered a couple of bad cells last night in one)
Thanks in advance.
d
Just a thought...
With the fuel filter bleeder snugged up good.
Disconnect the fuel feed hose at the top of the IP (LARGER OF THE TWO)
Connect your plastic hose with a barb to the rubber hose and repeat your bleeding operation...
The fuel bleeder on the filter where it threads in is not sealed realy good once its open and there could be air getting into your clear tube through the threads in the bleeder...
Bleeding things at the IP will get rid of that one possibility and if that's the issue will prevent a lot of tail chasing and hair pulling.
Good luck
DieselDavy
07-24-2018, 07:24
Good plan Robyn!
I'll give that a shot tonight. Not sure how I'll hook another line to the one that I'll disconnect from the pump, but once I see it, I'll figure something out!
Thanks for the help!
Dave
Use a double barb fitting...works well.
Or a piece of copper tubing and a couple clamps ...
DieselDavy
07-25-2018, 07:04
I pulled a 13 hour work day yesterday. Didn't even get to stop by the parts store and pick up batteries. All I did was pull the batteries and further inspect the cables. All is good. Battery trays cleaned up and waiting for the new Optimas to come home.
Dave
DieselDavy
08-01-2018, 02:42
Got my batteries in today. Went for broke and tried a couple of starting cycles. Didn't fire once. Tried Missy's idea, pulled input hose to IP. Clamped a hose on to that hose and tried to clear the air. Lots of air. Never cleared up. I have a video of this but it won't load because of some security token? (must be associated with the site upgrade going on)
I tried the same thing out of the lift pump. Same results. Now what?
I'm considering two possibilites:
I only put 5 gallons of fuel in the tank. The new pickup looked good and should be sitting in the fuel, but who knows.
Maybe there is something wrong with the fuel pickup I just installed. Maybe it's sucking all this air.
....Help!
The air is getting into the system AFT of the lift pump.
There is either a leak in the suction line from the lift pump to the top of the tank, or inside the tank.
The only real way to sort this out is to recheck the lines for issues.
Any flex lines (Rubber) are suspect as are any connections.
Any O rings at the lift pump that may be missing or faulty ????
Same question for the connections at the tank ????
AIR IS GETTING INTO THE SYSTEM BEFORE THE LIFT PUMP
Any issues past the lift pump toward the engine will show leaks...
DmaxMaverick
08-01-2018, 07:12
Got my batteries in today. Went for broke and tried a couple of starting cycles. Didn't fire once. Tried Missy's idea, pulled input hose to IP. Clamped a hose on to that hose and tried to clear the air. Lots of air. Never cleared up. I have a video of this but it won't load because of some security token? (must be associated with the site upgrade going on)
I tried the same thing out of the lift pump. Same results. Now what?
I'm considering two possibilites:
I only put 5 gallons of fuel in the tank. The new pickup looked good and should be sitting in the fuel, but who knows.
Maybe there is something wrong with the fuel pickup I just installed. Maybe it's sucking all this air.
....Help!
If you have a video hosted on Youtube or some other site, just paste the link into a post. Videos won't normally embed into a post. Not related to the updates.
Robyn is right, and I'll repeat. The leak is between the lift pump and fuel level in the tank. If you added only 5 gallons to an empty tank, perhaps add another 5 gallons. If that doesn't improve it, then the problem is less likely the sender unit, and more likely a line or connection between the tank (top) and lift pump. If adding more fuel cures the leak, the problem is more likely a wrong (too short) or defective fuel sender unit.
DieselDavy
08-01-2018, 10:26
I'll have to revisit the pump output test. I cut the output nipple off of the old pickup assembly, (with about 4" of original steel line) and spun it into the output of the pump. While the treads match the sealing method isn't the same. (flare vs. o-ring) That could be part of the issue. Once/if I can rectify this issue, I can address the tank pickup possibility. I hate to have to put another 5 gal of fuel in just because I don't want to deal with it if I have to drop the tank again!
While I'm figuring out how to seal the pump output to stop air intrusion, I could take a detour and try looking for leaks by setting the pressure regulator on the air compressor to a few pounds, pressurize the tank and look for leaks?
Sound like a good plan?
DmaxMaverick
08-01-2018, 10:41
Your problem isn't the OUTLET of the lift pump. If it were, it would be leaking fuel, externally (make a mess), while the lift pump is running. The problem is at, or prior to, the INLET to the lift pump. Pressurizing the tank may help find leaks that may not show up otherwise, but if you have leaks between the lift pump and injection pump, they should show while the lift pump is running. So, if you find leaks between the lift pump and injection pump, fix them, but they are NOT the source of air in your system.
DieselDavy
08-01-2018, 11:08
Roger that DMax. I'm worried that something is wrong with the pickup. The fittings went together smoothly. Either way, once I pressurize the system, if I find a leak, I'll have to drop the tank again to find/fix....
Thanks to the group for letting me 'vent'! (and your help!)
d
PS. I tried to attach the video (pulling from my computer) like I did the photos earlier in this post. Maybe it was too big?
DmaxMaverick
08-01-2018, 11:24
You can't attach videos like photos. They have to be hosted on a video site, like Youtube, then linked into a post. None of that will cost a penny. If you don't already have a Youtube account, it's simple enough to sign up and upload videos. Once you have a Youtube account and upload a video, the video page will have an external link you can copy/paste into a post.
"Smooth" fittings may be misleading. I get suspicious when too many things go too right. If you are mixing metallic and O-ring fittings, they most often fail. There's usually a reason for one or the other, and they rarely mix. I'd start looking there, and convert one or the other, to the other. Most of the time, it's just easier to install a barb fitting and use soft lines and clamps. They are less durable over the long run, but are almost always an absolute short-term fix. This is not usually a problem for you, knowing what you know, but may present problems down the road for subsequent owners. The upside is, they aren't usually hidden.
DieselDavy
08-01-2018, 11:42
OK, to clarify. The mix/match issue was only for my test at the output of the lift pump.
When installing the fuel pickup in the tank the fittings all matched and went together smoothly. Still could be an issue, but that will come to light when I pressurize the tank. (I hope)
DieselDavy
08-01-2018, 18:19
Latest update.
Success, I put 5 more gallons of fuel in it, pumped some more fuel out of the line going into the IP, ran a few starter sessions and Shizam! Started up, ran smooth.
Fuel gage is reading just above the orange mark with around 9 gallons in the tank. It ain't right, but at least it's running! I'll fill it in a day or two and see how it's running before I decide what to do next. Almost seems like it isn't picking up fuel off the bottom AND the gage isn't near the bottom, but it looked exactly like the old one so... I don't know....
a5150nut
08-01-2018, 18:38
fuel tanks have a bowl of sorts that the pickup sets in. Most 5 gal will not fill tank enough to crest the top of said bowl. Rocking can cause fuel to splash into bowl. Bowl is there to prevent starvation when cornering and in gas rigs to cool the fuel pump.
If the fuel pickup was the same shape and depth from the rim that sits in the top of the tank it should be fine.
Personally...
I would drop the tank, remove the pickup and check it all out.
With the rig stationary ... 5 gallons of fuel should be quite sufficient to satisfy the pickup and not allow air to suck in.
Check it now and get it right, lest thee might find ones self in deep do do some cold lonely night along the interstate...with no fuel flow...
Summer in the driveway is far and away better than the edge of the road on a dark night....
Been there done that trick
Good luck
DmaxMaverick
08-01-2018, 19:42
If starting with adding 5 gallons doesn't work, but adding another 5 does, something is wrong, still. The sender is not picking up fuel as it should. Adding 2 gallons should get you started, let alone 10! This assuming you are parked relatively level. Any grade involved will certainly change the results. Despite everything else, this is a good thing to know, now, as opposed to Robyn's scenarios. As my old grandpappy (RIP) used to say, keep the top half full, and the bottom half will never let you down.
DieselDavy
08-02-2018, 03:51
As Robyn & DMax know, this tank is relatively flat on the bottom. "Under trunk" type tank, no bowl for the pickup to sit in. Just a couple of gallons should have been enough. The Tahoe was on my lift during the repair and with the way the short frame of the 2 door swoops up at the back, there is a slight tilt in the way it sits on the lift with the front leaving the floor a few inches before the rear. With the way the tank is shaped, it could cause a little fuel shift, but not enough to keep 5 gallons from covering the pickup. Robyn, you are correct, I need to get it back on there, drop the tank and see wassup! Our Lucerne is next on the lift for a new transmission so it'll have to wait a couple of weeks, but I'll have to do it. The aggravating part is that I set the old and new pickups side by side and they looked equivalent. Original equipment TS1012 fuel sock looked like it should sit in the same spot as the old pickup.
I don't know how it works but is it possible the bypass hose could have a hole in it and it's somehow picking up air? It looked like it was 'tie wrapped' to the main tube and should be picking fuel up very close to the bottom of the tank.
Anyway, thanks for holding my hand as I went through this process. Removing the tank the next time will be much easier!
d
Tie wrap ?????
Get a stainless steel hose clamp on the bypass hose.
A tie wrap is no where near dependable enough.. ;)
DieselDavy
08-06-2018, 05:01
Robyn,
"Tie Wrap" term was used as a generic term here for some sort of fastener. I have to be honest, I don't remember exactly what fastener was used. I should have taken a picture of it.... :)
I can't work on this right now as the Lucerne is on the lift and it's transmission is in the back of my truck today. (taking it in to get it remanned) Once this is project is completed, I'll try to refocus on the Tahoe.
I do what to say thanks to those contributing to this tread. Your advice is truly needed and appreciated!
Dave
More Power
08-06-2018, 06:29
but is it possible the bypass hose could have a hole in it and it's somehow picking up air? It looked like it was 'tie wrapped' to the main tube and should be picking fuel up very close to the bottom of the tank.
A little trivia... GM designed the fuel-return piping in the tank to minimize aeration of the return fuel, so they had it return closer to the bottom of the tank rather than splash down from the top.
A leak in the fuel-return line from the engine on back would/could make a mess, but a leak wouldn't introduce air into the fuel line that feeds the engine.
DieselDavy
08-06-2018, 09:39
I'm in my office now so I can't look at the sending unit I took off....but how does the fuel sock 'bypass' work. Could there be something wrong there that allows air into the system?
DmaxMaverick
08-06-2018, 11:47
I'm in my office now so I can't look at the sending unit I took off....but how does the fuel sock 'bypass' work. Could there be something wrong there that allows air into the system?
No. The inlet pipe is fixed, just above the level of the bottom of the sock. The sock ONLY screens the fuel prior to inlet, diffusing and reducing the velocity of the inlet fuel. The (sock) "bypass" is merely a spring loaded gate that opens if the fuel demand exceeds the allowance of the screen.
The fuel inlet BYPASS valve (if it has one), is a different relief valve in the suction pipe, about 1/4 way up the fuel level, that opens if the normal fuel inlet becomes nearly completely obstructed. The only consistency I have identified with their application is mostly limited to high reliability vehicles, such as CUCV, ambulance and fire, but some civi's had them.
DieselDavy
08-07-2018, 07:21
Given DMax's comments, there may be nothing wrong with my setup. With the slight angle my 2 door sit at on my lift and me pumping about a gallon through the system after to clear the air, I may have been sucking air off the bottom. I'm going to drive it for a while and see how it acts.
Thanks to all for your help!
Dave
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