View Full Version : 6.2 Redblock Theory
I really really really want to build a Red Block 6.2 bad! It is like the mythical unicorn of the 6.2 world…
1. Has anyone ever built-up/modernized a 6.2 Red Block and gave it a lot of power/boost?
2. Has the higher nickel content theory ever been tested or confirmed?
Yukon6.2
05-16-2022, 09:54
I will watch to see what you end up doing
I have 3 in my yard
1 is ventelated
2 is burnt
3 is running in a 2wd rustbucket
The burnt one still rolled over,had antifreeze in the block and is out of the weather
I will watch to see what you end up doing
I have 3 in my yard
1 is ventelated
2 is burnt
3 is running in a 2wd rustbucket
The burnt one still rolled over,had antifreeze in the block and is out of the weather
You willing to take them apart and see if they are crack free? I would only need one.
Also would you be willing to take a clean uncontaminated block sample to a lab? I could reimburse you for the lab results.
Yukon6.2
05-17-2022, 09:53
You willing to take them apart and see if they are crack free? I would only need one.
Also would you be willing to take a clean uncontaminated block sample to a lab? I could reimburse you for the lab results.
If you want i could break a piece off the ventilated block and send you,no labs anywhere around here that aren't cooking meth:rolleyes: not that it's a problem around here.
The burnt one is out and semi accessible so it could get checked out.But at this time it would have to wait till winter.
We got snow again last night,and my yard cleaning project has to start i have made a commitment to myself to get rid of at least 22 vehicles by the end of 22.So far i am at 1.
I did by a truck that was already sitting in my yard,not sure yet if that works against me.But it was one you don't see many of65046505
If you want i could break a piece off the ventilated block and send you,no labs anywhere around here that aren't cooking meth:rolleyes: not that it's a problem around here.
The burnt one is out and semi accessible so it could get checked out.But at this time it would have to wait till winter.
We got snow again last night,and my yard cleaning project has to start i have made a commitment to myself to get rid of at least 22 vehicles by the end of 22.So far i am at 1.
I did by a truck that was already sitting in my yard,not sure yet if that works against me.But it was one you don't see many of65046505
Heck yeah! That would be great! And a sample of the head too please! Send me a pm when you got it ready! I swear I read that Simone already had lab results but I can’t find that info anymore.
I had one apart back in the mid 80's that some clown had added a turbo to and melted a few pistons trying to make a bazilllllion HP
Aside from the melted pistons it was solid.
There were zero cracks in the bottom end......
The alloy story is one that has circulated around a lot over the years......I can't confirm it though.
The red blocks were 1982/83 only IIRC.
The early heads had coarse threaded injectors I believe....which is not a big deal, just something to remember when building.
The rocker arms were a cast type rather than the stampings that you will see in the 6.5
I had one of those engine blocks and finally let it go a while back.
Good luck.....Fun stuff
DmaxMaverick
05-18-2022, 06:09
The red blocks and coarse thread injectors were unique to the 1982 M/Y. Original heads had larger valves, as well. A crack-free red block and original heads are more and more rare these days. Certainly a diamond-in-the-rough, if you can find one. However, I wouldn't look for one if huge power is the goal. These, and subsequent years, lived a long, happy life due to the modest power demands of the time, and it had, essentially, no significant competition. A banks or ATS turbo system didn't destroy them if installed in accordance with recommendations. If you're looking for greater power, keep in mind, the block was never the primary weak link.
I had one apart back in the mid 80's that some clown had added a turbo to and melted a few pistons trying to make a bazilllllion HP
Aside from the melted pistons it was solid.
There were zero cracks in the bottom end......
The alloy story is one that has circulated around a lot over the years......I can't confirm it though.
The red blocks were 1982/83 only IIRC.
The early heads had coarse threaded injectors I believe....which is not a big deal, just something to remember when building.
The rocker arms were a cast type rather than the stampings that you will see in the 6.5
I had one of those engine blocks and finally let it go a while back.
Good luck.....Fun stuff
Ooo yes yes! Please tell me more!
The red blocks and coarse thread injectors were unique to the 1982 M/Y. Original heads had larger valves, as well. A crack-free red block and original heads are more and more rare these days. Certainly a diamond-in-the-rough, if you can find one. However, I wouldn't look for one if huge power is the goal. These, and subsequent years, lived a long, happy life due to the modest power demands of the time, and it had, essentially, no significant competition. A banks or ATS turbo system didn't destroy them if installed in accordance with recommendations. If you're looking for greater power, keep in mind, the block was never the primary weak link.
I just want to build one and do every mod possible to it. Fully modernized and push it to its limits! No idea what I would put it in.
This Red Block Theory has been a theory long enough! IMO. I am tired of reading about it! I want to be the guy that has hard data about the Red Block and if it does have a higher nickel cast, I want to be the guy to to build it and throw everything at it! I have a formula in my head that I think would turn it into a Duramax Slayer! Call me crazy?
But finding one with a good block now a days… Seems impossible.
To get this party started, I will take 2 clean and uncontaminated samples from my 6.5 Optimizer Heads and Block and send them into a lab for testing. First I need to find a lab…
Anyone have ideas which lab to contact?
The Truth about the early 6.2 engine
These were built in a time when MPG was king
The 1/2 ton rigs were capable of pulling down mid to high 20 MPG on the road.
They were a good runner, grocery getter and such.
That is what GM built them for....GETTING THE CAFE NUMBERS UP
As far as power goes....they were a real turd....
About 130 hp IIRC in the 1/2 ton.
Dual exhaust and fun to drive...
A banks turbo kit would wake them up a bunch.....but still.....by today's standards.....A real slug......
You can do a rebuild on one of these and add a Banks turbo (Seen on ebay off and on) and make 160-180 HP and get a decent little runner.
A K5 Blazer with one is a good little hunting/camping rig and can easily pull a modest size camp trailer....(READ THIS AS NOT A BIG ONE) 16' OR SO.....
Have fun
The Truth about the early 6.2 engine
These were built in a time when MPG was king
The 1/2 ton rigs were capable of pulling down mid to high 20 MPG on the road.
They were a good runner, grocery getter and such.
That is what GM built them for....GETTING THE CAFE NUMBERS UP
As far as power goes....they were a real turd....
About 130 hp IIRC in the 1/2 ton.
Dual exhaust and fun to drive...
A banks turbo kit would wake them up a bunch.....but still.....by today's standards.....A real slug......
You can do a rebuild on one of these and add a Banks turbo (Seen on ebay off and on) and make 160-180 HP and get a decent little runner.
A K5 Blazer with one is a good little hunting/camping rig and can easily pull a modest size camp trailer....(READ THIS AS NOT A BIG ONE) 16' OR SO.....
Have fun
Here’s my red block formula I would use if the nickel theory is true… tell me what you think…
1. Crack free rebuilt 6.2 redblock.
2. 18:1 coated pistons.
3. Taper Main Bolt holes.
4. Twisted Steel Girdle.
5. Improved Heads.
6. Brass tube between valves. (Lock n Stitch)
7. 33 plunger Injection pump.
8. Compounds
9. Downpipe straight out of hood
10. Ho 130gpm water pump
11. 9 blade dmax fan
12. Paradox by design
13. Quadstar upper plenum
14. Quadstar oil drain
15. Quadstar Valve cover braces
16. Light porting of the exhaust ports
17. Port all burs
18. Dual thermostat cross over
19. Innercooler
20. Fass lift pump
Anything else yal think should be thrown in?
All cool stuff....
"Splayed mains" are a good idea.....The bad part is the original outer bolt holes must be plugged and the plugs sealed in with Red Loctite.
Drilling more holes weakens the main webs even more.
A good girdle on the mainline is not a bad plan...
The brass sleeves between the valves "Was a stop gap BANDAID" to repair cracked heads....
A fresh set of either AMG heads or even the Clearwater heads....NEW IRON that has not seen GAWD knows how many duty (Heat) cycles
Deburing all sharp edges inside the block and a quick hit with a countersink on all bolt hole to remove the stress risers (Just break the sharp edges)
The cooling mods +++
Fan blade and clutch +++
Cleaning up the exhaust ports +++
Intake air cooler + Really works best if the boost pressure is 15 psi or over
Heavy boost on these engines is just a bridge too far.
These engines do not have enough head bolts to really clamp things together well ....Gaskets will not hold for extended mileage
Adding BIG fuel - - -
An IDI (Pre cup engine) keeps way too much heat in the heads where the heat can't be easily dissipated into the cooling system.
A direct injected engine on the other hand (Cummins, Powerstroke or other heavy diesels) have the combustion in a bowl in the top of the piston and the heat dissipates into the cylinder walls and the piston oil spray nozzles get some of it from under the piston head and take it off through the oil cooler...
About 300 flywheel hp on a 6.5 is about it....at least being able to keep the beast alive for a decent amount of miles.
The big power that has been made with the 6.2/6.5 has been for marine use...
Cooling is soooooooooooo easy....You have a huge lake, river or ????? amount of cold water to use to keep the heat down.
Bottom line.
The 6.2 is just not the platform to try and build a buttload of power.
So much could have been done at GM when they hatched these engines.
Deep skirted block with cross bolted main caps (6 bolts)
Forged steel crankshaft
Better head design with more bolts per cylinder
Direct injection (Common rail)
The bean counters got after it...
The 6.2 was a quick fix to get the CAFE numbers across the product line where the company wanted it. And the marketing department sold the public on the idea that these were beasts....Lotsa Torque ......Sort of...
Mission accomplished......
The 6.2.."Little engine that could" got great mileage and most of them lasted a lot of miles.
250K miles was very common..
Most people do not keep a rig long enough for the mfg to justify worrying about much more life span.....
I have seen some mid 80's 6.2 light duty rigs go 300K miles....
Building one of these to do what they were meant to do would be sweet.....As far as making a moose motor......Chasing the wind my friend.....
Much of the "Fixes" for the 6.2/6.5 are/were BANDAIDS to get the rig going again.
Back in the hay day of these engines I have seen many really low mile rigs sitting because people were either not willing to or could not afford to repair them.
This wonderful forum was started to help people (DIYER'S) learn from others, swap ideas and keep their rigs on the road......
Have fun......
What ever you decide to do.....SHARE IT....Always interested in wasssup here at the page...
All cool stuff....
"Splayed mains" are a good idea.....The bad part is the original outer bolt holes must be plugged and the plugs sealed in with Red Loctite.
Drilling more holes weakens the main webs even more.
A good girdle on the mainline is not a bad plan...
The brass sleeves between the valves "Was a stop gap BANDAID" to repair cracked heads....
A fresh set of either AMG heads or even the Clearwater heads....NEW IRON that has not seen GAWD knows how many duty (Heat) cycles
Deburing all sharp edges inside the block and a quick hit with a countersink on all bolt hole to remove the stress risers (Just break the sharp edges)
The cooling mods +++
Fan blade and clutch +++
Cleaning up the exhaust ports +++
Intake air cooler + Really works best if the boost pressure is 15 psi or over
Heavy boost on these engines is just a bridge too far.
These engines do not have enough head bolts to really clamp things together well ....Gaskets will not hold for extended mileage
Adding BIG fuel - - -
An IDI (Pre cup engine) keeps way too much heat in the heads where the heat can't be easily dissipated into the cooling system.
A direct injected engine on the other hand (Cummins, Powerstroke or other heavy diesels) have the combustion in a bowl in the top of the piston and the heat dissipates into the cylinder walls and the piston oil spray nozzles get some of it from under the piston head and take it off through the oil cooler...
About 300 flywheel hp on a 6.5 is about it....at least being able to keep the beast alive for a decent amount of miles.
The big power that has been made with the 6.2/6.5 has been for marine use...
Cooling is soooooooooooo easy....You have a huge lake, river or ????? amount of cold water to use to keep the heat down.
Bottom line.
The 6.2 is just not the platform to try and build a buttload of power.
So much could have been done at GM when they hatched these engines.
Deep skirted block with cross bolted main caps (6 bolts)
Forged steel crankshaft
Better head design with more bolts per cylinder
Direct injection (Common rail)
The bean counters got after it...
The 6.2 was a quick fix to get the CAFE numbers across the product line where the company wanted it. And the marketing department sold the public on the idea that these were beasts....Lotsa Torque ......Sort of...
Mission accomplished......
The 6.2.."Little engine that could" got great mileage and most of them lasted a lot of miles.
250K miles was very common..
Most people do not keep a rig long enough for the mfg to justify worrying about much more life span.....
I have seen some mid 80's 6.2 light duty rigs go 300K miles....
Building one of these to do what they were meant to do would be sweet.....As far as making a moose motor......Chasing the wind my friend.....
Much of the "Fixes" for the 6.2/6.5 are/were BANDAIDS to get the rig going again.
Back in the hay day of these engines I have seen many really low mile rigs sitting because people were either not willing to or could not afford to repair them.
This wonderful forum was started to help people (DIYER'S) learn from others, swap ideas and keep their rigs on the road......
Have fun......
What ever you decide to do.....SHARE IT....Always interested in wasssup here at the page...
Thanks for the correction and more info! Now all I need is some redblock samples!
Bigshankhank
05-21-2022, 06:17
So let me ask a dumb question; if I have an engine from '83 with the large valves, is that a red block? This is the one in my '84 G30 RV.
Yukon6.2
05-21-2022, 07:52
If it was the original engine...
Probably not.
From what i have read they were a one year only engine,1981.
There may have been a few that got used in 82.
GM changed the color of the diesel to black,probably to help dissipate the heat.That was a racing trick out of Smokey's bag so GM would have know about it.
The 6.2 made its appearance in the C/K trucks in the 1982 model year.
The red block was only 82.
The 83 and later was black....
The 82/83 had the coarse threaded injectors/heads
The 82 heads had larger valves and the heads were more prone to cracking......
Also the 82 heads had an extra water passage and those were prone to leaking at the head gasket....
A am pretty sure the Early "Red" blocks were 660 castings.....
The cast rockers were dropped in the 84 model year....
I have seen 1981 stamped on a few red blocks.
https://www.dieselplace.com/threads/do-i-have-a-red-block.340496/
Still having a hard time trying to find one. :-/
DmaxMaverick
05-22-2022, 17:54
I have seen 1981 stamped on a few red blocks.
https://www.dieselplace.com/threads/do-i-have-a-red-block.340496/
Still having a hard time trying to find one. :-/
They were unique to the 1982 model year. Of course, they were cast in 1981. I would expect, probably most of them were cast in 1981.
At 40 years on...there is certainly not the supply of iron out there to choose from that was available back in the early to mid 90's.
With Red blocks only being made for basically 2 years...82 was RED and 83 was the same block...just painted black...these are gonna be scarce....Not impossible to find but tough...
The 6.2 did not make a stellar impression on folks so they are not an item that is being hoarded....
Yukon6.2
05-23-2022, 09:33
I hoard them...
But then all of us way up here are all a little way out there...
Waaaaay upppp North :D
I can think of a few things to go along with the 6.2 diesels in the hoard pile..
Yukon6.2
05-24-2022, 09:31
Chainsaws are hoarded as well
As a crossover tie in, i have a diesel powered chainsaw...
And a few other rarities in the chainsaw world.
Like i said "way out there"
I will watch to see what you end up doing
I have 3 in my yard
1 is ventelated
2 is burnt
3 is running in a 2wd rustbucket
The burnt one still rolled over,had antifreeze in the block and is out of the weather
I contacted a lab…
https://www.metengr.com
1. I need 1-5grams of 6.2 Redblock Drill Shavings.
2. Grind the block surface clean to bare block material.
3. Use clean/new drill bit and get 1-5 grams, 5 grams preferred.
4. Place the shavings in a sanitized container.
5. Post pictures of motor, date code and sample location.
6. Ship the sample to my home and I will reimburse you for time, materials and shipping.
How soon can you giterdun?
Once you get the test results....please post the data....This will be very interesting stuff.....
Yukon6.2 NVM on the samples. I just found a crack free 1981 660 cast Redblock.
Once you get the test results....please post the data....This will be very interesting stuff.....
For you Robyn, Anything ;-)
The lab is going to charge me $300 per test. I am going to test 3 motors.
1. 1981 6.2 Redblock
2. 1985 6.2 Block
3. 2003 6.5 NAVSTAR Optimizer Block.
All data will be posted on every Diesel Forum.
Some random thoughts came to mind..
So it was not mainly the heat that cracks the heads of the redblock but lack of material from the bigger exhaust valves.
So with brass tubing between the valves, that pretty much solves the cracked head problem yeah?
And with bigger exhaust valves, that would be a better candidate for a turbo because it dissipates the heat and exhaust better and faster yeah?
And I read that the 6.2 Redblock heads came with an extra coolant passage that caused premature head gasket failure. There was a recall I read that GM fixed this issue by putting a freeze Plug type cap on that extra passage to fix the problem. Anyone know more info or got pics of this?
So new Theory…
Bigger exhaust valves=Faster spooling, more boost, less heat, lower egts and more efficiency? Sound correct?
So in theory, the redblock heads should be lock n stitched and taken to a machine shop, cleaned, cap off the extra coolant port per Gm recall, shaved and valve job done and would be considered the best 6.2 heads yeah?
Or drop the cash for new smaller valve heads?
The heads on the early 6.2 did have issues.....
Best choice for heads......Get a set of the AMG 6.5 heads.
Better castings, ZERO duty cycles.....A proven winner
The brass sleeves between the valves was a BANDAID....The castings are still cracked and will eventually erode and fail...
IMHO....Why spend a dime on old cracked junk.....
ONE EXCEPTION
A classic car with an all stock engine, matching numbers...A rig that is a show car and must pass inspection to place in the show......NOT DRIVEN MUCH.
Your 6.2 project will likely be used a lot.
Why start with broken junk and try to patch it up.
The AMG heads are the best iron available......Best design of precups....
Just be sure you get "Pickup heads" The HMMWV/VAN heads have the 60 degree intake manifold bolt angle.....
Back in the early days when we were all trying to keep our 6.2/6.5 on the road the game was much different...We did not have a good source of available parts other than Ma General....$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
40 years on the Red engines now.....
Just my thoughts..
Yukon6.2
05-25-2022, 09:13
Another thing to consider is the Red Heads are limited to what you can do to the injectors.
there never was a different option to the ones that were designed for the red heads originally.
For all other heads the 6.5 injector will fit.
Plus the red heads may not have all the bolt holes required to bolt on the serpentine system.That happened on my Burb engin.
The heads that came off the donor were missing a bolt hole which i did not notice till i was installing the alternator/air pump mount.At that point i was not going backwards so i just went with one bolt not installed.
The heads on the early 6.2 did have issues.....
Best choice for heads......Get a set of the AMG 6.5 heads.
Better castings, ZERO duty cycles.....A proven winner
The brass sleeves between the valves was a BANDAID....The castings are still cracked and will eventually erode and fail...
IMHO....Why spend a dime on old cracked junk.....
ONE EXCEPTION
A classic car with an all stock engine, matching numbers...A rig that is a show car and must pass inspection to place in the show......NOT DRIVEN MUCH.
Your 6.2 project will likely be used a lot.
Why start with broken junk and try to patch it up.
The AMG heads are the best iron available......Best design of precups....
Just be sure you get "Pickup heads" The HMMWV/VAN heads have the 60 degree intake manifold bolt angle.....
Back in the early days when we were all trying to keep our 6.2/6.5 on the road the game was much different...We did not have a good source of available parts other than Ma General....$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
40 years on the Red engines now.....
Just my thoughts..
Another thing to consider is the Red Heads are limited to what you can do to the injectors.
there never was a different option to the ones that were designed for the red heads originally.
For all other heads the 6.5 injector will fit.
Plus the red heads may not have all the bolt holes required to bolt on the serpentine system.That happened on my Burb engin.
The heads that came off the donor were missing a bolt hole which i did not notice till i was installing the alternator/air pump mount.At that point i was not going backwards so i just went with one bolt not installed.
Awesome info! AMG heads it will be!
So the Redblock I though I found that was crack free has some bad pitting in the cylinders even after it had been honed. Greg the Machinist said to check for one locally to reduce costs. I’ll post some ads. I’m back to searching for another one.
Jim, you know of any hoarders here in Montana?
DmaxMaverick
05-25-2022, 16:07
No consideration for sleeves? (not that I would, just tossing it out there)
No consideration for sleeves? (not that I would, just tossing it out there)
Idk. I have never researched sleeving a 6.2 before.
DmaxMaverick
05-25-2022, 21:26
It seems nothing else is off the table. It's been done, and I know of a few locally. If the block is sound otherwise, why not?
It seems nothing else is off the table. It's been done, and I know of a few locally. If the block is sound otherwise, why not?
Definitely an option worth considering! But first need to find a Redblock to get the chemical testing done or else this theory will remain a theory…
Yukon6.2 are you willing to donate 5 grams of Redblock material for this cause? Would even pay you for your time and postage!
DmaxMaverick
05-26-2022, 11:02
Pull your sample from the red block you have. The bell housing boss is a benign area between the bolt holes. A few 1/4" divots won't weaken the block. Be sure to use a clean, new, dry bit for each block (no lube or coolant), careful to not cross-contaminate the samples. Drill slowly over a magnet to capture the chips. Too fast and the chips will fly away. Invert a sandwich bag over the magnet so you can get away clean. Start the drilling with a larger bit to "clean" the sample area (just enough to break the surface), then drill/collect the sample from within that divot. That will isolate your sample from any surface contamination and paint. Don't use a center-punch, grinder, or metal brush. The metallurgic differences may be only a fraction of a %, so any of the above may skew the result.
Pull your sample from the red block you have. The bell housing boss is a benign area between the bolt holes. A few 1/4" divots won't weaken the block. Be sure to use a clean, new, dry bit for each block (no lube or coolant), careful to not cross-contaminate the samples. Drill slowly over a magnet to capture the chips. Too fast and the chips will fly away. Invert a sandwich bag over the magnet so you can get away clean. Start the drilling with a larger bit to "clean" the sample area (just enough to break the surface), then drill/collect the sample from within that divot. That will isolate your sample from any surface contamination and paint. Don't use a center-punch, grinder, or metal brush. The metallurgic differences may be only a fraction of a %, so any of the above may skew the result.
I do not have a red block to get a sample! Lol! Thought I explained that. Or you talking to Yukon6.2?
DmaxMaverick
05-26-2022, 17:02
I do not have a red block to get a sample! Lol! Thought I explained that. Or you talking to Yukon6.2?
Thought you said you had one, but the bores were pitted. Even with pits, they may not be too deep to bore. If they are too deep, sleeves are next. At any rate, the procedure should apply to anyone pulling a sample from the blocks.
Thought you said you had one, but the bores were pitted. Even with pits, they may not be too deep to bore. If they are too deep, sleeves are next. At any rate, the procedure should apply to anyone pulling a sample from the blocks.
Wish I had a good one for sure! lol
I found another potential redblock 6.2 in Idaho. I plan on making the 6hr round trip drive either today or tomorrow. It was taken out fresh 2 months ago and all ports have been kept closed. PO said they pulled it because they think the injection pump is bad.
Good luck in the quest for a good one
Good luck in the quest for a good one
Thanks! I am more excited about finally getting to do some chemical testing!
When I inspect the Redblock, I will see if the crank turns, remove oil pan and check for cracks in the mains Pre purchase.
Photo bucket is getting expensive so does anyone know of any good way I can share pictures free?
DmaxMaverick
05-28-2022, 22:17
Thanks! I am more excited about finally getting to do some chemical testing!
When I inspect the Redblock, I will see if the crank turns, remove oil pan and check for cracks in the mains Pre purchase.
Photo bucket is getting expensive so does anyone know of any good way I can share pictures free?
You mean someplace other than HERE? You have an album, as a registered user, but storage is limited. If your uploads are relevant to TDP, that can be expanded as needed. Go to the top of the page and select Community/Albums. Create an album for you project, and upload your pics. Let me know if you get storage warnings.
Yukon6.2
05-29-2022, 09:06
I hope it pans out for you...
If not i found the red block that has ventilation yesterday.Safely stashed inside the back of a burb.It's ventilated but just the oilpan from the outside.
I will wait till i hear from your latest find.I was looking for a date code on it,any idea where it would be,Casting is a 660
I bought the complete Redblock from Idaho. I did a pre inspection on the webs. There is only 1 crack about 3/4” on one of the webs. Crank turned freely, compression felt good. 300,000 miles. I think I can fix this crack on the web with some high nickel welding Rod pending cylinder condition and could be a good candidate for a N/A build/Material Testing. I was able to talk him down some because of the crack. It was a long day driving in the rain to get this Redblock. 7+hours. I am pooped!
https://www.thedieselpageforums.com/tdpforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6513&d=1653875464
https://www.thedieselpageforums.com/tdpforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6512&d=1653875351
https://www.thedieselpageforums.com/tdpforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6511&d=1653875327
https://www.thedieselpageforums.com/tdpforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6506&d=1653874048
I also have a lead on a crack free Redblock in Great Falls, Mt.
But first goal is the Lab testing and now I can start doing that.
Stay tuned!
You mean someplace other than HERE? You have an album, as a registered user, but storage is limited. If your uploads are relevant to TDP, that can be expanded as needed. Go to the top of the page and select Community/Albums. Create an album for you project, and upload your pics. Let me know if you get storage warnings.
Thank you! Think I figured it out!
I hope it pans out for you...
If not i found the red block that has ventilation yesterday.Safely stashed inside the back of a burb.It's ventilated but just the oilpan from the outside.
I will wait till i hear from your latest find.I was looking for a date code on it,any idea where it would be,Casting is a 660
The date should be next to the casting number (Driver Rear of block). You might have to wire brush the area off. If there is no date casting then there should be a stamped T next to the injection pump (Driver side) which I think also shows the production number from the assembly line. Also there could be this weird marking on the back of the block next to where the oil pump drive would be. On my 1983 6.2 Diesel, I remember seeing this weird marking on the block so I am not sure if it is irrelevant because it is rumored that some 1983 6.2 diesels were Redblocks but they were painted black.
https://www.thedieselpageforums.com/tdpforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6507&d=1653874097
https://www.thedieselpageforums.com/tdpforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6508&d=1653874129
https://www.thedieselpageforums.com/tdpforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6509&d=1653874858
DO NOT WELD THAT WEB
Get a LOCK AND STITCH INSERT KIT
This will fix the issue....
That cast iron is well soaked in oil.
You will not get it welded good....plus the heating is likely going to warp things and mess up the main line
DO NOT WELD THAT WEB
Get a LOCK AND STITCH INSERT KIT
This will fix the issue....
That cast iron is well soaked in oil.
You will not get it welded good....plus the heating is likely going to warp things and mess up the main line
I copy that. Looks like you have done this Lock N Stitch before…
https://www.dieselplace.com/threads/cracked-blocks-revisited.273304/
Have you had good success with it?
Oh yesssss
I bought the kit with the inserts, the drill and the special tap.
The inserts have special threads that are angled up and they "pull" pull the crack together.
The idea is to stop the crack from spreading and to maintain proper torque on the bolt.
IS IT PERFECT.....NO.....But this fix has a good track record.
I have done a couple 6.5 bottom ends..
Welding cast iron is a tough slog even when the casting can be spotlessly clean and contaminate free....
Oil soaked casting is just a loosing battle......
I assume the crack is in the outer bolt hole ???
As you probably know...GM reduced the bolt diameter in the 6.5 outer bolts to 10mm from the original 12mm
This does leave a bit more material in the area....but cracks still happen.
Oh yesssss
I bought the kit with the inserts, the drill and the special tap.
The inserts have special threads that are angled up and they "pull" pull the crack together.
The idea is to stop the crack from spreading and to maintain proper torque on the bolt.
IS IT PERFECT.....NO.....But this fix has a good track record.
I have done a couple 6.5 bottom ends..
Welding cast iron is a tough slog even when the casting can be spotlessly clean and contaminate free....
Oil soaked casting is just a loosing battle......
I assume the crack is in the outer bolt hole ???
As you probably know...GM reduced the bolt diameter in the 6.5 outer bolts to 10mm from the original 12mm
This does leave a bit more material in the area....but cracks still happen.
Yes, the crack is on one of the outer holes. Plain as day to see it. Didn’t even wipe it down.
I do not plan on any more disassembly until I get lab results done. I have test tubes on the way for samples. I can tell you are extremely excited to see the results. :-D I am too!
Do you still have any of the tooling stuff you used? That guide plate you made?
Thinking ahead of the game…
If I removed the larger exhaust valves from the Redheads and had a machine shop install them on a set of AMG heads, what are your thoughts about that? Lower Egts, faster spooling, less drive pressure? Etc… Of course I would put brass between the valves to compensate for the material loss with the higher chance of the AMG’s cracking.
Also I do not like the idea of boring a 6.2 Redblock so 6.5 pistons could be installed. I can not seem to find any 18:1 6.2 compression pistons, so it seems Twisted Steel is my only option for 18:1 6.2 pistons. I can get ONS 6.2 pistons cheap and send them off to Twisted.
I remember reading a thread here where members cut up 6.2 and 6.5 pistons to check thickness. I can’t seem to find that old thread.
DmaxMaverick
05-31-2022, 07:37
Larger valves have some advantage with a N/A engine, but valve size is much less critical with charged induction. Whatever gain my may find certainly won't outweigh the loss of integrity and gain in complexity, not to mention the cost. It is simply not a viable trade. I seriously doubt that any gains would be measurable, if there are any at all. I think the GM engineers got this one right. The design concept of the 6.2L Diesel engine revolved around efficiency/economy (they are essentially one in the same). If the larger valves fit into that mission, they wouldn't have re-tooled to eliminate it. Any first-concept prototype is a guess. They guessed wrong, then moved it more toward practical. The Navistar/AMG engineers had the option and direction to "improve" head and valve performance, and opted to not. They had their reason(s), probably similarly to my reservations.
DmaxMaverick
05-31-2022, 07:50
Also, boring a 6.2L red block to 6.5L bore diameter isn't advisable. There was only a short run of 6.2L blocks that would be a candidate for that, and they were limited to 1991-1992 castings (as I recall, the crossover years between 6.2 and 6.5). The same block casting was used for the (soon to be obsolete) 6.2L before the introduction of the 6.5L. Again, the engineers are way ahead of you. The maximum recommended bore diameters ensure a margin of practicality, and considers most/all contingencies, such as core-shift and metallurgic deficiencies. Of course, there are "perfect" blocks out there, but who's to know which, or even how to identify them? The block you're considering at the moment is already defective, for reasons unknown.
Larger valves have some advantage with a N/A engine, but valve size is much less critical with charged induction. Whatever gain my may find certainly won't outweigh the loss of integrity and gain in complexity, not to mention the cost. It is simply not a viable trade. I seriously doubt that any gains would be measurable, if there are any at all. I think the GM engineers got this one right. The design concept of the 6.2L Diesel engine revolved around efficiency/economy (they are essentially one in the same). If the larger valves fit into that mission, they wouldn't have re-tooled to eliminate it. Any first-concept prototype is a guess. They guessed wrong, then moved it more toward practical. The Navistar/AMG engineers had the option and direction to "improve" head and valve performance, and opted to not. They had their reason(s), probably similarly to my reservations.
Bean-counters got involved and determined it is too much of a risk to put larger exhaust valves on and mass produce. I totally get it!
But…
With the better casting and alloys in the newer heads, I think it would be a fun experiment to put bigger exhaust valves in for sure and reinforce with the brass tubing between the valves.
Even though GM was not willing to take that financial risk, I would would be :-D
Also, boring a 6.2L red block to 6.5L bore diameter isn't advisable. There was only a short run of 6.2L blocks that would be a candidate for that, and they were limited to 1991-1992 castings (as I recall, the crossover years between 6.2 and 6.5). The same block casting was used for the (soon to be obsolete) 6.2L before the introduction of the 6.5L. Again, the engineers are way ahead of you. The maximum recommended bore diameters ensure a margin of practicality, and considers most/all contingencies, such as core-shift and metallurgic deficiencies. Of course, there are "perfect" blocks out there, but who's to know which, or even how to identify them? The block you're considering at the moment is already defective, for reasons unknown.
Totally agree! No point in boring a 6.2 into a 6.5! I have read horror stories of the failures.
What Maverick said
The AMG heads are the chit man.
The smaller valves will give you all the air you need with a huffer on the top side pushing on it.
The 6.2 that was made on the 599 casting can go 6.5.....
I have tried to bore a 6.2 out/....ONCE... .030" CALL IT GOOD.Maybe. 060" if there is not a core shift.....
AS I have mentioned many times...I would not spend a dime on old 6.2/6.5 heads.
AMG or if the bank account can't do them....Clearwater heads look good and the ones I had were fine..
ZERO DUTY CYCLES......NO cracks....and other nasty things...
What Maverick said
The AMG heads are the chit man.
The smaller valves will give you all the air you need with a huffer on the top side pushing on it.
The 6.2 that was made on the 599 casting can go 6.5.....
I have tried to bore a 6.2 out/....ONCE... .030" CALL IT GOOD.Maybe. 060" if there is not a core shift.....
AS I have mentioned many times...I would not spend a dime on old 6.2/6.5 heads.
AMG or if the bank account can't do them....Clearwater heads look good and the ones I had were fine..
ZERO DUTY CYCLES......NO cracks....and other nasty things...
Okay Okay Lol! I can’t say no to Missy Good Wrench. Your skills and knowledge is Legendary! You should have got a Nobel Prize for all the knowledge you have shared.
I called Greg The Machinist in Hamilton as recommended. As soon as I mentioned “Cracked web bolt hole” “Lock N Stitch” Greg immediately said, “I am not interested in helping you with your project” and hung up on me. :-( Options are running thin…
If you are serious....Buy the insert tools and do it yourself
I got a piece of 1/2" steel plate that fits the outside dims of the pan rail and located the center main bolt holes
I drilled an access hole to get at each of the center main outer bolt holes.
Located and drilled 4 holes on each side to access the pan bolts.
Use the pan bolt holes to fasten the plate to the pan rail.
I grabbed my mag drill .....Use a drill that will JUST slip into the existing bolt hole.....
Locate the mag drill and then using the proper drill for the insert enlarge the hole.
The drill MUST be deep enough to allow the special tap to get the new threads deep enough to allow the insert to thread in and end up FLUSH to a couple thousandths below the part line of the main web.
Keep the mag drill on the plate in location.
Remove the drill and insert the special tap.
Carefully turn the tap (CHUCK) BY HAND to get it started well into the hole....Use a good tapping fluid on the tap....You can get tapping fluid at most major industrial supplies
OR GO ONLINE. https://www.ebay.com/itm/402869851512?hash=item5dccea1578:g:iG8AAOSwf6NfHyA C
At this point....Remove the tap, the mag drill and the plate.
Work the tap in carefully reversing it often ...You don't need to drown the block in tap fluid....but keep the working area wet with it...
Remove tap, blow out the new threads and continue until you are deep enough....
Wash the threads out with BRAKLEEN AND BLOW DRY.
Lightly chamfer the hole (Break the edge a tiny bit) Take a stock bolt and thread on a nut...
Jam the nut to the insert and then test fit the insert....YOU DO NOT WANT THE INSERT ABOVE THE PART LINE.....MUST BE FLUSH TO A THOU OR TWO BELOW...
Once the insert can be tightened into hole properly GOOD AND SNUG
Clean again (Both the hole and the insert) Dry good.
Add Red Loctite to the insert and run that bad boy in the hole....Tighten....QUICKLY RECHECK TO BE SURE THE INSERT IS FLUSH TO BELOW THE WEB
Allow the Loctite to set....a tad bit of heat will hasten the process.
The new bolt hole will likely break through the web up near the inner area.
Be sure to debur that hole...DO NOT LEAVE STRESS A STRESS RISER "SHARP EDGES"
JOB DONE
Make sure you do not get any loctite in the inner threads where the bolt goes..
OK
This has been a quicky "Machine shop 101 on how to do it"
Do not try to do it free hand with a drill motor.
A mag drill can be rented at a rental shop.
I happen to own a big mag drill....
Good to go...
There should be a thread on TDP somewhere where I posted all the stuff I just reviewed.
Maverick can probably find it for ya...
DmaxMaverick
06-01-2022, 10:17
Here ya go....
https://www.thedieselpageforums.com/tdpforum/showthread.php?32983-Cracks-revisited
Wow! Soo much helpful info! Thank you Maverick and Robyn.
If the Redblock theory of it having higher nickel content is true…
Yes, I am serious about building up a 6.2 Red. I wouldn’t turbo and give serious power to a cracked one though…
This area has been discussed a lot over the many years I have been at TDP
The entire issue of these cracks is one that we have beat on as much as the time they have been around.
My PERSONAL theory of the WHY the blocks crack.
Metallurgy may is likely part of it.....The torque stress placed on the block is different in a diesel engine than a gasoline engine....and herein likely lies the culprit..
The 6.2/6.5 are so similar to the good old chevy V8 with a shallow skirted block and the main caps "unsupported"
If you look at the Duramax V8 It has a deep skirted block and cross bolted main caps.
The AMG P400 6.5 diesel has a herky girdle that bolts to the block, captures the main caps with cross bolts and the pan bolts to the girdle assembly.
The Optimizer 6500 has thicker main webs, small outer main cap bolts and some other internal changes (I suspect a better alloy of cast iron than GM used)
Why do some block go 250,000 miles and stay crack free ????? Gawd knows....Then some with less than 100K miles are a mess of cracks.
Having worked in the machinery building bizz for many years...We always placed our iron castings out in the rain on the back lot to rust for 6 months to a year...Then before we machined them we sent them over the the foundry and had the "Stress relieved" This involved putting them in a huge oven and bringing the temps up to HOT....TO MANY YEARS AGO....Likely 1800 or so for a few hours and then they were allowed to cool slowly back to room temperature ...
Then they were cleaned up, flashing removed and off to the machine shop.
Prior to doing this "Stress relieving" we had castings that were moving all over when tools were laid to them....Tolerances could not be held and cracks were common in very short order IN SOME CASTINGS.....
After the stress relief process....no more issues.
All the razor sharp machined corners in the main web area is another issue......Dehorning (Removal of all sharp edges where cracks can start....break all sharp edges, lightly counter sink all holes ...Break the sharp edge)
I am not sure how GM stress relieved their block...or if they even did/do.
I have heard they chemically treat them.......?????
Let them lay out in the mud for a few months, then cook them and allow all stress to normalize works...But it is not as fast as a quicky bath.....
My grandfather had the first Scientific heat treating company on the Pacific coast back in the 1930's 40's
My dad worked at the company for years and he explained a lot of the techniques to me over the course of my time learning the trade.
MY OPINION
The 6.2/6.5 blocks were subject to issues and the cracking was found on many blocks
I suspect poor alloy, failure to stress relieve the castings properly and way too many stress risers.. (Sharp corners and such)
If you repair your Red Block crack....it should be fine.
After as many duty cycles that the block has had (Hot/cold) it is more than likely stress free by now....
Once a crack starts....it will or can continue unless steps are taken to stop it....
Ah yess.
Many unanswered questions.
Hope this helps.
This area has been discussed a lot over the many years I have been at TDP
The entire issue of these cracks is one that we have beat on as much as the time they have been around.
My PERSONAL theory of the WHY the blocks crack.
Metallurgy may is likely part of it.....The torque stress placed on the block is different in a diesel engine than a gasoline engine....and herein likely lies the culprit..
The 6.2/6.5 are so similar to the good old chevy V8 with a shallow skirted block and the main caps "unsupported"
If you look at the Duramax V8 It has a deep skirted block and cross bolted main caps.
The AMG P400 6.5 diesel has a herky girdle that bolts to the block, captures the main caps with cross bolts and the pan bolts to the girdle assembly.
The Optimizer 6500 has thicker main webs, small outer main cap bolts and some other internal changes (I suspect a better alloy of cast iron than GM used)
Why do some block go 250,000 miles and stay crack free ????? Gawd knows....Then some with less than 100K miles are a mess of cracks.
Having worked in the machinery building bizz for many years...We always placed our iron castings out in the rain on the back lot to rust for 6 months to a year...Then before we machined them we sent them over the the foundry and had the "Stress relieved" This involved putting them in a huge oven and bringing the temps up to HOT....TO MANY YEARS AGO....Likely 1800 or so for a few hours and then they were allowed to cool slowly back to room temperature ...
Then they were cleaned up, flashing removed and off to the machine shop.
Prior to doing this "Stress relieving" we had castings that were moving all over when tools were laid to them....Tolerances could not be held and cracks were common in very short order IN SOME CASTINGS.....
After the stress relief process....no more issues.
All the razor sharp machined corners in the main web area is another issue......Dehorning (Removal of all sharp edges where cracks can start....break all sharp edges, lightly counter sink all holes ...Break the sharp edge)
I am not sure how GM stress relieved their block...or if they even did/do.
I have heard they chemically treat them.......?????
Let them lay out in the mud for a few months, then cook them and allow all stress to normalize works...But it is not as fast as a quicky bath.....
My grandfather had the first Scientific heat treating company on the Pacific coast back in the 1930's 40's
My dad worked at the company for years and he explained a lot of the techniques to me over the course of my time learning the trade.
MY OPINION
The 6.2/6.5 blocks were subject to issues and the cracking was found on many blocks
I suspect poor alloy, failure to stress relieve the castings properly and way too many stress risers.. (Sharp corners and such)
If you repair your Red Block crack....it should be fine.
After as many duty cycles that the block has had (Hot/cold) it is more than likely stress free by now....
Once a crack starts....it will or can continue unless steps are taken to stop it....
Ah yess.
Many unanswered questions.
Hope this helps.
How much material should I take off the web and main sharp edges? File or Die Grinder?
How much should I chamfer the web/main bolt holes?
Break the edges at a 45 degree angle...1/32" wide is all that's needed.
1/32" wide on the holes....Just touch the holes with a standard countersink in an electric drill
The idea is to get rid of the SHARP corners...
You can even do the head bolt holes in the block deck....Any bolt hole that has a sharp edge.
Just break the stress riser....
Will this solve all the ills...NOPE...But it will not hurt a thing.
If you use a 1/32" ball bur in your dumore and carefully remove the sharp root in the block cut where the main caps sit "L" This L is the cut....make it so the corner is slightly round...and run the roundness off the edges.....Do not modify the actual register...The cap must be tight....
A crack in this corner is not repairable
Break the edges at a 45 degree angle...1/32" wide is all that's needed.
1/32" wide on the holes....Just touch the holes with a standard countersink in an electric drill
The idea is to get rid of the SHARP corners...
You can even do the head bolt holes in the block deck....Any bolt hole that has a sharp edge.
Just break the stress riser....
Will this solve all the ills...NOPE...But it will not hurt a thing.
If you use a 1/32" ball bur in your dumore and carefully remove the sharp root in the block cut where the main caps sit "L" This L is the cut....make it so the corner is slightly round...and run the roundness off the edges.....Do not modify the actual register...The cap must be tight....
A crack in this corner is not repairable
Oh thank you! Again sooo amazing of you to share your brain! I am loving it!
I can tell you have a soft spot for the Redblock 6.2. I do too and think a lot of others do as well. :-D
I have read somewhere, in some point of time that some machinists claimed that when they bored a 6.2 Red, they could hear the mill motor bog down a lot more then other 6.2 blocks. Like it was for sure a harder block then the others. I think this is where the nickel theory first started. Did you experience the same?
Edit: Just found this post about the 6.2 Red in the diesel place.
Mad (Sean) Max
Joined Jan 25, 2009 · 9,602 Posts
#15 · Sep 5, 2013
Jdemaris used to comment that whenever he touched an angle grinder to a red block that the sparks were a different colour than later castings which led him to believe that the '82 did contain a different metallurgy, most likely higher nickel. But again, not really proof. They are sought after though.
Just goes to show how others are assuming it has higher nickel content reinforcing the Redblock Theory…
There are hundreds of posts out there with assumptions but no solid proof…
I really don't have a soft spot for any chunk of iron.
Although my first interaction with the 6.2 was with a 1982 GMC JIMMY
A local gal had it and she took it to a shop for some minor repairs (Little crap...hoses, belts yada yada yada) The mechanic told her she needed to get rid of it soon as these things BLOW UP
I traded her a Dodge Ram Charger for it....
The little Red engine ran to 300K miles for me....NEVER BLEW UP EITHER...
Only issue was the 700R4 tranny scattered all over the street one day going to work......
Swapped in a TH350...called it good.....
I don't think any oddities would be noticed when machining a Red block....
The slight difference in the material is not likely to even be noticed.....A well seasoned machinist MIGHT hear a slight difference in the sound of the cutter on a boring bar when boring cylinders.....MAYBE.....
I really don't have a soft spot for any chunk of iron.
Although my first interaction with the 6.2 was with a 1982 GMC JIMMY
A local gal had it and she took it to a shop for some minor repairs (Little crap...hoses, belts yada yada yada) The mechanic told her she needed to get rid of it soon as these things BLOW UP
I traded her a Dodge Ram Charger for it....
The little Red engine ran to 300K miles for me....NEVER BLEW UP EITHER...
Only issue was the 700R4 tranny scattered all over the street one day going to work......
Swapped in a TH350...called it good.....
I don't think any oddities would be noticed when machining a Red block....
The slight difference in the material is not likely to even be noticed.....A well seasoned machinist MIGHT hear a slight difference in the sound of the cutter on a boring bar when boring cylinders.....MAYBE.....
Ok thanks again for sharing your knowledge.
I am not gonna ask anymore questions and waste anymore time until the Lab test results are in. The test tubes have not arrived yet.
More Power
06-06-2022, 09:32
....clip...
Just goes to show how others are assuming it has higher nickel content reinforcing the Redblock Theory…
There are hundreds of posts out there with assumptions but no solid proof…
I had a red block engine rebuilt in the 1990's. The block itself was crack free, but the heads had to be replaced. That experience launched The Diesel Page.
Both metallurgically and in engineering design, engine manufacturers are always pushing for improvements (power, cost, fuel efficiency, etc). The 6.2/6.5 saw many changes in their design life, both in metallurgy and design. Some of those changes helped and some didn't. When a big change was introduced, GM included some sort of ad verbiage about the improvement. This is likely where the block alloy came into our sphere of knowledge.
Concerning the "red blocks". There are better choices... The "599" for example. Those cast by Navistar beginning in 2001 as well. The newest ones with a cast iron block girdle (P400) being the very best. I'm curious why you're interested in the red blocks.
I'm curious why you're interested in the red blocks.
I have had a lot of people ask me this same question since I started this thread and started searching for a 6.2 Redblock.
I have 2 reasons for my interest.
1. I want to know if the Redblock truly has higher nickel. This theory/assumptions has been around for 41 years. I am awestruck that no one has tried to prove it, at least no one to my knowledge. 41 years is a long long time people have been saying it has higher nickel content without substantial scientific proof.I aim to solve this soon! Hopefully in a month or two. I need test tubes and a later 84+ 6.2 diesel motor to get block samples. Should have one here soon in about a week.
2. I bought my first truck for only $500 when I was 19 years old. It was a 1983 Gmc K2500 with a painted black 6.2 Redblock. It sat in some guys yard for over 5 years. I replaced all the fluids in it, filters, batteries, glow plugs and it fired right up. It ran choppy until I added fresh fuel to it. I drove that thing everywhere and towed a lot of heavy stuff with it. It was my first off-road vehicle as well. One point of time, my brother drove his Suzuki Samurai in the bed of the truck and we drove around town with it in the back! Lol! The odometer rolled over at least 3-4 times. A lot of great memories. It finally gave out about 5 years ago. I replaced the motor with a 6.2 J Code takeout and sold the truck to a coworker. I still see it running around town sometimes. Wish I kept it. Also, I am a huge 6.2/6.5 diesel enthusiast. The Redblock cast first came out in 1981 which happens to be my birth year. So because of this nostalgia relationship between myself and the Redblock 6.2, I think it would be super cool to build a 41 year old 6.2 block, modernize and bomb proof it, put it in a 41 year old light weight GM car or truck and drive it around. I’ve researched here on thedieselpage that a gentleman put a 6.2 diesel in a Corvette and was getting 45+MPG. In this modern day of age, that would be so cool and would get a lot of attention and respect. Even with minor cracks in the webs, it would prove that even a bad block can still be good and be rebuilt with modern technology. I guess one could say I do have a soft spot for the 6.2 Redblock. But all of this nostalgia does not mean nothing to me unless this higher nickel content is true and I will not build a Redblock unless it is true.
Edit:
Pics of my 83 gmc 6.2 with a fresh rattle can paint job. Sold it shortly after.
https://www.thedieselpageforums.com/tdpforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6530&d=1654547330
https://www.thedieselpageforums.com/tdpforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6529&d=1654547330
I guess one could say I do have a soft spot for the 6.2 Redblock. But all of this nostalgia does not mean nothing to me unless this higher nickel content is true
Are you sure you want to know? Sounds like it might be traumatic if it turns out to be much ado about nothing! ;)
Are you sure you want to know? Sounds like it might be traumatic if it turns out to be much ado about nothing! ;)
Heck yeah I want to know! It is a fun experiment and will help me determine if I want to build up a Redblock. It will take thousands of dollars to do so and with that kind of money being thrown at a 41 year old motor, it would help me sleep better at night knowing it has higher nickel! Lol! And then it would go boom! Lol
More Power
06-08-2022, 10:22
...41 years is a long long time people have been saying it has higher nickel content without substantial scientific proof....
If anyone sees something "official" here in TDP in our published content concerning engine design, it likely originated with GM... either in their published literature or perhaps in a conversation I had with a GM Powertrain engineer/tech/etc., or through our own testing.
For example... Here's a corner of a 660 block we cut apart to help determine whether what we heard about cyl boring would affect cyl wall durability.
6531
If anyone sees something "official" here in TDP in our published content concerning engine design, it likely originated with GM... either in their published literature or perhaps in a conversation I had with a GM Powertrain engineer/tech/etc., or through our own testing.
For example... Here's a corner of a 660 block we cut apart to help determine whether what we heard about cyl boring would affect cyl wall durability.
6531
Wow! Those walls are thin! I’ll have to be extra careful getting drill shaving samples. Got any more of those block pics? In your many years, have you ever tested for the nickel content in any 660 cast?
sctrailrider
06-10-2022, 16:47
If I were going to drill anywhere it would be the bellhousing flange...
Here’s a couple more pics of my old 83 Redblock that I dug out of an old Flashdrive.
https://www.thedieselpageforums.com/tdpforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6533&d=1655047742
https://www.thedieselpageforums.com/tdpforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6534&d=1655047836
If I were going to drill anywhere it would be the bellhousing flange...
Was thinking that would be a good spot too! What did you think about donating some P400 Block samples to this experiment?
The test tubes arrived. I’ll start collecting samples and get pics for yal.
sctrailrider
06-12-2022, 09:28
Yes I'll contribute a P sample, I'll message you my address...
Yes I'll contribute a P sample, I'll message you my address...
That is awesome! Thank you sooo much! I can mail a test tube your way!
Sample #1
Red Block Verification.
https://www.thedieselpageforums.com/tdpforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6535&d=1655070896
https://www.thedieselpageforums.com/tdpforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6536&d=1655070922
Safe sample location found and surface area cleaned with a grinder.
https://www.thedieselpageforums.com/tdpforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6537&d=1655070939
https://www.thedieselpageforums.com/tdpforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6538&d=1655070957
Weight of 5 grams is equivalent to the weight of a nickel as seen in photo. I used my wife’s baking scale and made sure it was zeroed out.
https://www.thedieselpageforums.com/tdpforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6539&d=1655070977
I used a clean long piece of paper to catch the shavings and carefully placed them on the scale.
https://www.thedieselpageforums.com/tdpforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6540&d=1655070991
The size of hole left on the Redblock did not come close to the boundary of the main cast.
https://www.thedieselpageforums.com/tdpforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6541&d=1655071008
Scale zeroed out with an empty test tube and placed material in the tube. Then I scaled it out again to make sure 5 grams was in there.
https://www.thedieselpageforums.com/tdpforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6542&d=1655071026
I labeled the test tube and now waiting on more samples. I will get a sample from my 2003 NAVSTAR Optimizer and ask a customer if they would donate some 1985 6.2 Samples.
https://www.thedieselpageforums.com/tdpforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6543&d=1655071042
I like it..
Serious scientific data being gathered.
Gonna finally separate the Fly Chit from the Pepper.
It will be real interesting to see what these tests reveal.....
Urban legends are so much a part of society that it is nearly impossible to believe a lot of things......
What do you suppose we will find....Was GM using old bed springs, ground up Toyota blocks with an occasional Honda dropped into the mix for good measure.....or maybe some old crushed Studebaker and International iron....or was it whatever was available from China Iron Company ????
This is going to be worth the wait....
Missy sits waiting the real deal data ;)
I like it..
Serious scientific data being gathered.
Gonna finally separate the Fly Chit from the Pepper.
It will be real interesting to see what these tests reveal.....
Urban legends are so much a part of society that it is nearly impossible to believe a lot of things......
What do you suppose we will find....Was GM using old bed springs, ground up Toyota blocks with an occasional Honda dropped into the mix for good measure.....or maybe some old crushed Studebaker and International iron....or was it whatever was available from China Iron Company ????
This is going to be worth the wait....
Missy sits waiting the real deal data ;)
Definitely a fun and interesting project! When I drilled into the block, it felt like I was drilling into an Exhaust Manifold. The drill shavings were more gritty and powder then big curly chunks.
I was thinking about filling in the hole with some welding Rod. I don’t think it would hurt the block to weld on it where I collected the sample. During your years of service, what Rod seemed to work best on the 6.2 block?
sctrailrider
06-14-2022, 06:01
Why , your asking for trouble welding iron when it's not needed. And it's normal for iron to be gritty, it's not like steel.
What trail Rider said
Leave the welder in the corner.
If the little hole bothers you...mix up some JB Weld and fill it....Let it harden and sand the surface flush....
Welding cast iron is a very tedious process of preheating....Welding and then post heating to allow a slow cool down.....
I have done it.....Lets not go there...
More Power
06-14-2022, 10:20
Wow! Those walls are thin! I’ll have to be extra careful getting drill shaving samples. Got any more of those block pics? In your many years, have you ever tested for the nickel content in any 660 cast?
I have many pics of engine parts with various problems. Some were sent to me by members, some were my own. I worked in a science department at UM for a long time - coinciding with the production life of the 6.2/6.5. We had several analytical instruments that were used to perform elemental analysis. I never felt a need to look at the iron in these engines. I analyzed our well water once... ;)
Btw - to begin an analysis of iron shavings, a sample will first be weighed precisely on a lab scale - probably somewhere between 1 to 5 grams. Then, the iron will be dissolved in an acid - nitric or hydrocloric, diluted to some degree to produce a clear liquid. The liquid will then be analyzed in a plasma flame, with the elemental analysis being done optically, compared against a "standard" to produce a PPM (parts per million) for all primary elements found in the sample (there are always several trace elements). Every element produces its own color flame within the plasma flame, and an alloy will produce many colors, most not visible/discernible to the human eye. That's where the instrument's optics and calibration come into play. Our department had two ICAP (Inductively Coupled Argon Plasma) instruments. Each one was mega bucks. We had other types of spectrometers as well, including micro-beam x-ray machines that could do elemental analysis.
If there's nickel in the alloy you're looking at, it'll be identified and quantified. But then, what's normal and is that nickel concentration different when compared to other year blocks? It's all interesting though. I always enjoyed lab work.
Good bet GM won't give up the recipe they used on the various years of blocks.
I am very suspicious that the curing process and the stress relieving process were to blame for the cracking issues more than the nickel content....
As in they skipped it...or it was a chemical bath of some sort to save $$$$
I mentioned before that I work at a recycle center. These pictures I just took show that the bales recycled, are mixed with all kinds of metals. Copper, Aluminum, Lead, Gold, Silver, Platinum, Titanium, etc. These metals have been refined and processed xxxxx amounts of times. I believe the newer cast blocks are going to have all kinds of alloys in them. Which I think is the reason they are stronger. These bales get sold to China, Mexico and Canada. The United States does not produce much at all. Probably the number 1# consumer nation in the world.
https://www.thedieselpageforums.com/tdpforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6547&d=1655256754
https://www.thedieselpageforums.com/tdpforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6548&d=1655256813
https://www.thedieselpageforums.com/tdpforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6549&d=1655256838
Back in the 1980’s the United States did a lot more production instead of consumption/recycling. The metals back then were refined and processed only a couple of times, if that and I’m assuming will have far more iron in the casts compared to the newer casts. Anything with high iron is prone to cracking. Like a wood stove… If the Redblock does have higher nickel, I feel safe to say that the nickel was intentionally added into the casts. The newer casts, not so much.
When I look at these bales of metal, It is fun to think that this bale could be GMs next and finest diesel motor… Or a new line of “Improved Heads” from China. lol!!
Also on a legality side of things… There is a chance I could get sued by GM or some company for exposing the metal content in the blocks. It would be a US Patent issue. I will do some research on this just to be sure. If I am not mistaken, after 30 years the Patent Laws no longer apply.
JB Weld is a great idea! Didn’t think of that.
Interesting metallurgy patent info.
https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/GOVPUB-C13-569da73468758161ddea341a37c149b8/pdf/GOVPUB-C13-569da73468758161ddea341a37c149b8.pdf
General Motors has more Patents then I care to read lol!
https://patents.justia.com/company/general-motors?page=3
A reputable company that deals with US patents I will call and ask some GM questions.
https://www.candcip.com/metallurgy
Recycled steel and various other metals can be used to make a myriad of products.
Cast iron is a more generic term
There are many types of cast-iron alloys, but the four primary categories include white cast-iron, gray cast-iron, ductile cast iron, and malleable cast-iron.
In order to get a consistent "Batch" at the foundry the materials have to be a well managed blend of several given substances.....
Bumpers off a few Toyota pickup's, a handful of rail road track and sundry cast brackets from ancient tractors is not gonna cut it...
Repeatable mixtures of the required elements in huge quantity are required.
I do believe most recycled materials are used for more mundane items.....A batch of fenders made from scrap car bodies.....VERY POSSIBLE
We have an outfit locally that takes in huge quantities of scrap steel....They turn out rebar and steel T posts (The green/white fence posts)
They ship out huge rolls of rebar every day...
Steel sheets and such can be made from a lot of recycled materials.....
Engine blocks have to be a bit tighter on the mix...Steel fenders can't be made into cast iron....
MY OTHER POST ABOUT WHAT WAS USED WAS A BIT OF TONGUE IN CHEEK..:rolleyes:
Recycled steel and various other metals can be used to make a myriad of products.
Cast iron is a more generic term
There are many types of cast-iron alloys, but the four primary categories include white cast-iron, gray cast-iron, ductile cast iron, and malleable cast-iron.
In order to get a consistent "Batch" at the foundry the materials have to be a well managed blend of several given substances.....
Bumpers off a few Toyota pickup's, a handful of rail road track and sundry cast brackets from ancient tractors is not gonna cut it...
Repeatable mixtures of the required elements in huge quantity are required.
I do believe most recycled materials are used for more mundane items.....A batch of fenders made from scrap car bodies.....VERY POSSIBLE
We have an outfit locally that takes in huge quantities of scrap steel....They turn out rebar and steel T posts (The green/white fence posts)
They ship out huge rolls of rebar every day...
Steel sheets and such can be made from a lot of recycled materials.....
Engine blocks have to be a bit tighter on the mix...Steel fenders can't be made into cast iron....
MY OTHER POST ABOUT WHAT WAS USED WAS A BIT OF TONGUE IN CHEEK..:rolleyes:
Ok cool! I was feeding your excitement :-)
The owner of Twisted Steel Performance most graciously donated a lot of P400 block material for my metallurgy experiment lab testing. Definitely more then 5 grams! Thank you soooo much man!
Here’s the block identification.
https://www.thedieselpageforums.com/tdpforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6615&d=1658460966
https://www.thedieselpageforums.com/tdpforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6616&d=1658461034
https://www.thedieselpageforums.com/tdpforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6617&d=1658461049
The drill sample location:
https://www.thedieselpageforums.com/tdpforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6618&d=1658461066
The material in the test tube:
https://www.thedieselpageforums.com/tdpforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6622&d=1658461502
I only have 2 more blocks I need to get material for before I send the samples to the lab for testing. Soooo exciting!
Yukon6.2
07-22-2022, 10:02
Which blocks are on your hit list?
Which blocks are on your hit list?
When my blazer is out of the shop, I’ll get a sample from its Optimizer and a sample from customers 85 6.2 block after I pull it. Just progress is slow because parts are on back order.
Yukon6.2
07-26-2022, 10:22
Just scored a free 599 engine complete
Is it one that you wanted to test?6631
Yukon6.2
07-27-2022, 09:57
The pic didn't load66326632
Just scored a free 599 engine complete
Is it one that you wanted to test?6631
No. I’m good! Think I have all I need here soon. Don’t wanna pay more then $1200 on tests lol. What are your plans for that 99?
Yukon6.2
07-29-2022, 09:43
Pull it apart soon to see what is savable.
It was sitting out in the weather for quite a while,water was leaking out when i winched it up my rollback.
I hope i can salvage more than the injection system.
Hopefully the block and crank are salvageable.A bore job will probably be called for.
Just an update. Still waiting on more samples. Should have what I need after I am done building an Optimizer.
Yukon6.2
12-24-2023, 10:23
Hi
Good to see you again
Merry xmas
I have another 599 block in my shop to try and save
Came out of the 94 i am dismantaling
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