View Full Version : Can I hone just 1 cylinder?
Customer brought over a 6.5 NAVSTAR optimizer 2003 that was rebuilt by Milton in 2010 and had only 20 miles put on it in 12 years. 6 of the glow plugs had melted but I was successfully able to get them out without breaking them. Converted the IP from 24v to 12v and I did a 10 second dry test run on it and a compression test.
All cylinders are well above 400 psi except cylinder #2 which is at 265. I removed the head and found a long deep scratch in the cylinder wall.
I have never done a lower end before. Can I hone just the 1 cylinder and replace just the rings on one piston without affecting performance of the other cylinders?
If so, how much material can I hone off of the cylinder, what tool do I use to measure cylinder width, what specs should the rings be?
edit: pictures added
https://www.thedieselpageforums.com/tdpforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6552&d=1655610265
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DmaxMaverick
06-18-2022, 22:37
A cylinder hone is a finish process. It is not a corrective option. Honing and new rings won't correct a deep gouge. That requires boring, then a hone to prepare the cylinder for new rings.
I agree with Maverick.....
Just a suggestion.
Get that piston out of the hole and get a look at the rings.....
The one heavy score does not look good...BUTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT...
But I am looking at the piccy on a 60" screen
The score is down in the hole far enough that it is not as big of a worry as if it was near the top of the hole...
Was this caused by the ingestion of a failed glow plug or parts of ?????
My thought is this.
Get the piston out and see wassssup there.
My bet is the piston and rings are messed up.
If this is the case.....Use a bottle brush hone to smooth the cylinder wall, stuff in a fresh piston and rings and give it a go......MAIN THING....GET THE HOLE SMOOTH SO THERE IS NOT ANY HIGH SPOTS...
Its going to have a tad more blowby than would be preferred......but that groove will fill with carbon and things will likely work OK
Certainly not a perfect scenario.....but I think it can be saved without a complete Overhaul
Just cover the crankshaft and other parts up top to prevent grit from the honing getting into stuff..
Clean the bore well with a clean rag an solvent to get all the grit out.....
Main thing is to smooth up that scuffed area....
I will bet that a fresh piston and rings....a light massage of the cylinder with a bottle brush hone and that hole can be coaxed up to 325 psi or above...
Get the piston out and get some pics for us to see..then we can tell more about what will/will not work to save things...
If that is a standard bore I have a good used piston sitting here
Measure across the skirt and get me the size.....I have 4 sitting here...They are all different select fit sizes....We will get one that's close.....
(1) used piston
(1) Fresh ring set (Single)
(1) Head gasket
(1) Set of head bolts
This bad boy can likely be saved pretty cheap....and live to battle the Mountain pass once again.
Rings are available in single sets.....Try
https://www.ebay.com/itm/154615883026?hash=item23ffd32512:g:Br0AAOSwFGNhGUu X&amdata=enc%3AAQAHAAAA8AaRsCek3jmbpdyGeUUOfEcRiArVV HHeHkQ0cJ3cbRYXDgxItlxSeNaUtr1X%2F53Wzlh9pkr%2BnB4 qsoAUKzR9KUC%2BOscGpHEqE4jM9HfrC%2FbHDoG5o7dCHcssK %2BGCFLJrlfXfJqJNxLKWDZ0%2F5F63hxGFoGmDzcrMQDmG3H4 PZztpesvwbdEZPjWRw2U3p94%2FW5B5AXUpgrsacOkW1nweaGz f7RBK9j18c9rZhb1f7N7hxS%2B7fsDKCHcYaq7X8YMy6%2B0nH rd23%2F7gBPcKiIJPOtciCnfm9DQF7%2BL4bcxZVtbOxQjDycV rSLFoYcyz90rHaQ%3D%3D%7Ctkp%3ABFBMnPTova9g
Machine shop options are slim pickings locally to get a bore job done or anything done… it would have to be a garage job.
The glow plugs were pulled intact but there is evidence of the sides of 6 plugs that melted. It gives me reason to believe this issue is why the freshly rebuilt military motor got pulled with only 20 miles on it in 2010. When I noticed that 6 plugs were melted, I shop vacuumed the crap out of the intake ports and glow plug ports hoping to get any loose debris out. Unfortunately damage was already done Pre purchase.
https://www.thedieselpageforums.com/tdpforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6555&d=1655651506
Ok that sounds like it is worth a shot trying to fixing it. I’ll get some more tools and let you know measurements!
Yukon6.2
06-19-2022, 09:49
Having just bush fixed a 6.5...
I would go with Robyn's game-plan
One of the engines i pulled apart had a worse score in a cylinder and was running fine other than coolant pressure at the time.
The score in the cylinder was about 3/4" wide.It was a patch job fix,but not noticeable when it was a running engine.Not the reason of coolant pressure.
Robyn's pistons are in good shape i have one in my bush fix 6.5.
Having just bush fixed a 6.5...
I would go with Robyn's game-plan
One of the engines i pulled apart had a worse score in a cylinder and was running fine other than coolant pressure at the time.
The score in the cylinder was about 3/4" wide.It was a patch job fix,but not noticeable when it was a running engine.Not the reason of coolant pressure.
Robyn's pistons are in good shape i have one in my bush fix 6.5.
3/4” wide! Wow! Nice work fixing it!
Robyn’s plan is in the works!
It does not take much in the way of METAL to Fubar a cylinder....The jacket on the glow plugs are harder than a whores heart.....A small chunk likely got wedged between the cylinder and the piston.
I am going to hazard a guess that the rings and piston are chewed up on the side with the damage.
The ring lands are going to have damage as well and could have caused the rings to stick in the grooves.
The top ring groove has a hardened insert to protect the piston...
I got the piston out, disassembled and cleaned in the parts cleaner.
https://www.thedieselpageforums.com/tdpforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6558&d=1655681045
Top ring has very very light scoring.
https://www.thedieselpageforums.com/tdpforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6556&d=1655680969
Center ring has some deep scoring that can easily be seen and felt. When I removed it, it seemed like there was something wedged between the ring and piston. Basically seized on the damaged side.
https://www.thedieselpageforums.com/tdpforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6557&d=1655681024
Bottom ring with the spring looked ok.
The piston has a ton of scratches on it that I can feel with my fingers. Should I buy your piston or do you think it is ok?
https://www.thedieselpageforums.com/tdpforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6559&d=1655681066
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The Skirts look pretty good.
IF IT WERE MINE.
I would make sure there are no foreign objects jammed into the piston anywhere...Clean up the little beast with some 400 wet/dry paper using some diesel on it.
Make sure the piston is smooth with no ridges sticking up.....Wash well and put it back on the rod.
Make sure the new rings fit easily with no tight spots in the grooves.....
Put the end gaps at 90 degrees from the fire chamber in the piston and the top and second ring gaps 180 degrees apart to give the best chance to hold compression well.
Take the bottle brush hone to the bore and smooth it up keeping the tool moving up and down at a fair pace.
AS I SAID BEFORE.....COVER THE CRANK...WELL...
Use some lube like WD 40 ON THE HONE....
Get a decent cross hatch...make sure there are no high ridges from any of the scratches.
Wipe clean....lube up and stuff that bad boy back together.....
CAUTION....Be sure to BLEED ON IT A LITTLE :D
GOOD TO GO...
Just to clarify.....This is not AAA+++ Practices....but I think she will run pretty good....
Not sure what the rings listed at ebay were.....find a set of military chrome rings.
The top ring in your piccy looks like a moly filled ring ....these do not handle crap at all...
There is a moly filled center and a little band top and bottom that is cast iron.
The moly gets trashed by the crud and there goes the seal.
Moly rings require a very smooth finish.....
Chrome rings will wear well and deal much better with the less than perfect surface.
The slight imperfections will fill in with carbon over time and should be pretty good...
I have put together worse in a pinch and ran it for years.....
They used chrome rings in the HMMWV so the sand in the desert would not knock out the rings so easy.....At least that is what some of the fellas I have talked to that were in the sand box said.
I have some military packaged rings that are chrome...but they are .020 OS
Just a thought 60G glow plugs on a 12 volt system.....
Give it a go......The bleeding portion is very important :rolleyes:
The Skirts look pretty good.
IF IT WERE MINE.
I would make sure there are no foreign objects jammed into the piston anywhere...Clean up the little beast with some 400 wet/dry paper using some diesel on it.
Make sure the piston is smooth with no ridges sticking up.....Wash well and put it back on the rod.
Make sure the new rings fit easily with no tight spots in the grooves.....
Put the end gaps at 90 degrees from the fire chamber in the piston and the top and second ring gaps 180 degrees apart to give the best chance to hold compression well.
Take the bottle brush hone to the bore and smooth it up keeping the tool moving up and down at a fair pace.
AS I SAID BEFORE.....COVER THE CRANK...WELL...
Use some lube like WD 40 ON THE HONE....
Get a decent cross hatch...make sure there are no high ridges from any of the scratches.
Wipe clean....lube up and stuff that bad boy back together.....
CAUTION....Be sure to BLEED ON IT A LITTLE :D
GOOD TO GO...
Just to clarify.....This is not AAA+++ Practices....but I think she will run pretty good....
Not sure what the rings listed at ebay were.....find a set of military chrome rings.
The top ring in your piccy looks like a moly filled ring ....these do not handle crap at all...
There is a moly filled center and a little band top and bottom that is cast iron.
The moly gets trashed by the crud and there goes the seal.
Moly rings require a very smooth finish.....
Chrome rings will wear well and deal much better with the less than perfect surface.
The slight imperfections will fill in with carbon over time and should be pretty good...
I have put together worse in a pinch and ran it for years.....
They used chrome rings in the HMMWV so the sand in the desert would not knock out the rings so easy.....At least that is what some of the fellas I have talked to that were in the sand box said.
I have some military packaged rings that are chrome...but they are .020 OS
Just a thought 60G glow plugs on a 12 volt system.....
Give it a go......The bleeding portion is very important :rolleyes:
Ok sounds great! I measured the bottom of the skirt twice and came up with 4.09. Is that a .30 over piston?
How wide should the ring gaps be for all 3? Also what grit bottle neck hone should I use?
4.050" is a standard piston...Sounds like the beast has been bored .040" OS
Ring end gap...... Top ring.... .010" -.020"............Second ring .029"- .039"
Oil ring gap is a ???? depends on what type is used...Most sets will include a little spec sheet with what is needed..
Get a Flex hone (Bottle brush) for 4" to 4-1/4" cylinders depending on what you get for rings....240 grit will do for cast iron or Chrome.....If you go back with moly filled (Common) then step up to 320 grit....Moly does not like a rough surface AT ALL.
When measuring the piston.....Mic them just a touch below the center line of the piston pin for a good number....
Good bet this Mil engine had sucked up a bunch of sand ....that is likely why it was bored .040" OS
Could have had a failure of some other nature.... most 6.5's will run 250K and still have decent usable bores......020" to .030" is a normal oversize on rebuild that need some help..
.040" tells me that this beast had taken a beating....
Military stuff....a crap shoot, and they can be let idling for looooooooooooong periods of time.....Hard to say what happened..... But usage is hard usage with them.
Gonna have to scare up a single set of .040" rings...
These are not as common as the .030" size or standards.
4.050" is a standard piston...Sounds like the beast has been bored .040" OS
Ring end gap...... Top ring.... .010" -.020"............Second ring .029"- .039"
Oil ring gap is a ???? depends on what type is used...Most sets will include a little spec sheet with what is needed..
Get a Flex hone (Bottle brush) for 4" to 4-1/4" cylinders depending on what you get for rings....240 grit will do for cast iron or Chrome.....If you go back with moly filled (Common) then step up to 320 grit....Moly does not like a rough surface AT ALL.
When measuring the piston.....Mic them just a touch below the center line of the piston pin for a good number....
Good bet this Mil engine had sucked up a bunch of sand ....that is likely why it was bored .040" OS
Could have had a failure of some other nature.... most 6.5's will run 250K and still have decent usable bores......020" to .030" is a normal oversize on rebuild that need some help..
.040" tells me that this beast had taken a beating....
Military stuff....a crap shoot, and they can be let idling for looooooooooooong periods of time.....Hard to say what happened..... But usage is hard usage with them.
Gonna have to scare up a single set of .040" rings...
These are not as common as the .030" size or standards.
Awesome! I’ll get some better measuring tools to get more accurate readings.
Also on the bottom of the oil pan there was a lot of RTV chunks from the oil pan being overloaded with the RTV. There is also small traces of what looks like sand on the bottom of the pan too.
I am thinking the whole lower end will need to be taken apart and have every part cleaned in a hot tank. What are your thoughts?
https://www.thedieselpageforums.com/tdpforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6562&d=1655741248
Yukon6.2
06-20-2022, 09:04
The block with the groove is toast as far as i am concerned.
But the last guy thought it would run for a while,which it did.
The block with the groove is toast as far as i am concerned.
But the last guy thought it would run for a while,which it did.
I agree it’s risky. Customer has been contacted and we are deciding what steps to take next.
I do not think it needs to come all apart...NO HOT TANK NEEDED...
IF IT WERE MINE.
With the bores as large as they are now.
Get the other head off as well....Check for damage... IF NO OTHER DAMAGE
Wash out the pan....fresh oil filter, fresh oil...
Clean out the intake well.
Remove ALL the injectors and inspect the precups for any trash from damaged glow plugs.
Inspect the cylinder heads well....Disassemble each valve and look for damaged valves/seats....Blow out all intake and exhaust ports.....
If all is well.....clean the decks and the heads well to receive fresh gaskets and bolts...
Clean all head bolt holes in the block..../run a proper tap through each one to clean the threads.
ALL GOOD....
Stuff the one slug back in.....BUTTON THE BEAST UP.....
Yank the turbo off and inspect the hot side wheel for damage from the debris coughed out from the dying glow plug parts.
The turbo is spinning like the mill tails of hell...and trash from a dying glow plug can ruin the turbine....
Check the injector nozzles for surface damage....should be none...but give a look anyway....
Blow out the exhaust crossover pipe...just because....same with manifolds.....Do not leave anything that can bite you untouched....
I do not think it needs to come all apart...NO HOT TANK NEEDED...
IF IT WERE MINE.
With the bores as large as they are now.
Get the other head off as well....Check for damage... IF NO OTHER DAMAGE
Wash out the pan....fresh oil filter, fresh oil...
Clean out the intake well.
Remove ALL the injectors and inspect the precups for any trash from damaged glow plugs.
Inspect the cylinder heads well....Disassemble each valve and look for damaged valves/seats....Blow out all intake and exhaust ports.....
If all is well.....clean the decks and the heads well to receive fresh gaskets and bolts...
Clean all head bolt holes in the block..../run a proper tap through each one to clean the threads.
ALL GOOD....
Stuff the one slug back in.....BUTTON THE BEAST UP.....
Yank the turbo off and inspect the hot side wheel for damage from the debris coughed out from the dying glow plug parts.
The turbo is spinning like the mill tails of hell...and trash from a dying glow plug can ruin the turbine....
Check the injector nozzles for surface damage....should be none...but give a look anyway....
Blow out the exhaust crossover pipe...just because....same with manifolds.....Do not leave anything that can bite you untouched....
Ok. It is a N/A Optimizer. I do have the turbo stuff from a 95 donor so should be good on that side of things. Compression numbers are above 420 on the other cylinders.
Here’s another Newb lower end question.
Would the other 7 cylinders benifit if I turn the block upside down and spray brakekleen between the pistons and the cylinder walls to clean out any sand, dirt, build up, etc that could be lingering on top of the top ring or is that a bad idea?
Also would it be safer to hone the bad cylinder with the motor upside down?
Get the other head off just to be sure there is not any junk lurking.
The engine is out....Checking the other side is easy now....Doing this over again is a PITA.
A little chunk of crap rattling around may not have caused issues...BUT IT COULD....
Just a PLAY IT SAFE THING....
Poor engine has had a thrashing already....Let's save it....
No need to wash things..Just roll the engine over and as each piston drops down about an inch or so....wipe the cylinder wall with a WD40 dampened rag....Just to catch anything.
Just enough WD to make the rag sort of sticky....
Do that after you clean the decks off.....
Before honing cram some rags down in the hole with the crank throw DOWN...
Just protect the journal is all.
After you are done....wipe the cylinder down with a rag dampened with brakleen....
Clean the cylinder walls well....Lube lightly before stuffing the Piston/Rod assembly back in.
Make sure the decks are spotless clean and wipe with clean rag and brakleen to leave a dry oil free surface....just before you drop the heads/gaskets on....
With the engine on a stand you can roll it over with the bad hole angled down at a 45 degree....Still cover the rod journal...
Get the other head off just to be sure there is not any junk lurking.
The engine is out....Checking the other side is easy now....Doing this over again is a PITA.
A little chunk of crap rattling around may not have caused issues...BUT IT COULD....
Just a PLAY IT SAFE THING....
Poor engine has had a thrashing already....Let's save it....
No need to wash things..Just roll the engine over and as each piston drops down about an inch or so....wipe the cylinder wall with a WD40 dampened rag....Just to catch anything.
Just enough WD to make the rag sort of sticky....
Do that after you clean the decks off.....
Before honing cram some rags down in the hole with the crank throw DOWN...
Just protect the journal is all.
After you are done....wipe the cylinder down with a rag dampened with brakleen....
Clean the cylinder walls well....Lube lightly before stuffing the Piston/Rod assembly back in.
Make sure the decks are spotless clean and wipe with clean rag and brakleen to leave a dry oil free surface....just before you drop the heads/gaskets on....
With the engine on a stand you can roll it over with the bad hole angled down at a 45 degree....Still cover the rod journal...
Ok. The other head is off. Valves look shut. All lower piston skirts have scratches.
After getting everyone’s amazing info and thinking on things, I come to the conclusion that the grove in the cylinder 2 is not the main reason for the low compression. I believe that the #2 ring that was wedged in the piston grove was not touching the cylinder wall because of all the sand/glow plug material causing the ring to stick. I agree it can be saved!
My plan is to remove all the pistons and rings, clean all the pistons, use 400 grit sand paper to smooth the piston walls a little, install new rings, very light flex hone on all cylinders while coving the crank tighter then a burrito, remove the lifters, clean them and soak them in fresh oil, disassemble the heads, check for damage and run them threw the jet, install thicker head gaskets, Arp head studs, flowkooler 130 gpm water pump, serpentine set, new harmonic balancer, 9 blade fan, dual thermostat if it fits without modifications, ESS Oil pump drive for tach, g60 plugs, new oil pan, Hx35w, quadstar oil drain, wet test run it, check compression numbers again, flush coolant 2 times with water and 2 oil flushes.
I think it will be an amazing motor for the customer!
What do yal think?
I was thinking about this last night (Sleeping on it ya know)
The RTV in the pan is no biggy...I have seen this before.....Some builders go gung ho on the RTV.
The oil filter Should handle all the crap.
Post a good close up pic of the rod bearing you have out please....
Also while the top is off....Inspect ALL of the lifters (Rollers) and look at the cam lobes for any signs of damage....
This may seem like a bit over the top....But it takes very little time to do now and if other things are discovered....They can be dealt with easily......
This is your project....You make the last and final call as to how far you go...
I think that removing all the pistons is a bit much.....If the cylinders are clean with no damage (Head off the other side) Good to go.
Any damage would show in the compression numbers.
Might want to pull the oil pump apart and check for damage to the gears and housing.....If good...wash up, oil it and reassemble.
Again....your call.....
That one cylinder is never going to be stellar without boring....At .040" OS now the next shot is .060" Not my first choice on a 6.5
I do think that as low as the score is in the bore that the "Smoothemup" and fresh rings should get the compression back up to a reasonable number.....Over time, barring any other issues the score will fill with carbon and this will likely help a bit.....
Doing a good job is always job #1...but one can get carried away....
If the bearings and crank do not show damage from crap getting into the oil....This beast should be fine....
Just Curios ....What is the number on the glow plugs that were in the engine ???
Yukon6.2
06-21-2022, 09:07
I agree it’s risky. Customer has been contacted and we are deciding what steps to take next.
I meant the one block i had with the wide groove was toast,it also had 4 web cracks plus a crack from a head bolt hole to the outside of the block.
The block you are working on i feel is a good candidate for repair,the steps Robyn layed out are pretty much what i would do.
Yukon6.2
06-21-2022, 09:13
Here’s another Newb lower end question.
Would the other 7 cylinders benifit if I turn the block upside down and spray brakekleen between the pistons and the cylinder walls to clean out any sand, dirt, build up, etc that could be lingering on top of the top ring or is that a bad idea?
Also would it be safer to hone the bad cylinder with the motor upside down?
What i did before i started putting pieces back together...
Because when i took it apart i found the block crack and just placed it to the side while i explored other option.
Once i decided to use the original bottom end and it was back on the stand,i used a parts washer gun that sucks up your cleaning fluid with air,i rinsed the bottom end out with diesel the night before i started reassembly.I left it on the stand right side up to drip dry for the night.
Just Curios ....What is the number on the glow plugs that were in the engine ???
I jumped in the garbage trailer just for you Robyn!
Some weird plug I’ve never seen before. Must be a Military thing…
908 or 806 on top of the plug can’t tell
Bottom of plug
19207-12338771 (tel:19207-12338771)
MFR-3HCM3
google says they are 24v plugs.
When I did the test run and compression test, I used a good set of Used G60’s. Not these crap plugs.
https://www.thedieselpageforums.com/tdpforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6563&d=1655870436
Pics of the worst 2.
https://www.thedieselpageforums.com/tdpforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6564&d=1655870497
https://www.thedieselpageforums.com/tdpforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6565&d=1655870519
What i did before i started putting pieces back together...
Because when i took it apart i found the block crack and just placed it to the side while i explored other option.
Once i decided to use the original bottom end and it was back on the stand,i used a parts washer gun that sucks up your cleaning fluid with air,i rinsed the bottom end out with diesel the night before i started reassembly.I left it on the stand right side up to drip dry for the night.
Hmm, that’s a good idea too! Thanks!
Also with the carbon cleaned off the piston top. Here’s the stamped piston info. Definitely .40 over.
https://www.thedieselpageforums.com/tdpforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6566&d=1655871121
YUP...I AGREE 100%
Just a little note.
Back in about 1986 I did a "Fix' on a 1982 6.2 engine that had sucked a glow plug....
The rig had low miles....LIKE 50K K5 BLAZER
The rig belongs to a local fella ....He did not want to spend the huge $$$ that the GM house quoted him for a GOODWRENCH reman.
This thing was making real bad noises.....
The cylinder made yours look really good....
Piston was a mess.....JUNK
I scared up a standard size slug from a buddy who had scattered a 6.2 in his Blazer.....
We honed the hole a bit...stuffed the BETTER piston in with the rings that were on it.....
Said a prayer and buttoned it up..
Ran pretty good.....Never did check the compression....Ran on all 8 and idled smooth.
After getting involved with your thread...I decided to see if these folks were still around.
The guy gave the rig to his son in the late 90's and that rig is now in the hands of one of the grand kids......
Yup....Oldest grand kid is running it....Engine has not been touched since I worked on it.
The Kid loves that truck.......
So..... a lot of sin can be dealt with using some shade tree tech and get good results....
Yesssss...IT was a RED BLOCK....
YUP...I AGREE 100%
Just a little note.
Back in about 1986 I did a "Fix' on a 1982 6.2 engine that had sucked a glow plug....
The rig had low miles....LIKE 50K K5 BLAZER
The rig belongs to a local fella ....He did not want to spend the huge $$$ that the GM house quoted him for a GOODWRENCH reman.
This thing was making real bad noises.....
The cylinder made yours look really good....
Piston was a mess.....JUNK
I scared up a standard size slug from a buddy who had scattered a 6.2 in his Blazer.....
We honed the hole a bit...stuffed the BETTER piston in with the rings that were on it.....
Said a prayer and buttoned it up..
Ran pretty good.....Never did check the compression....Ran on all 8 and idled smooth.
After getting involved with your thread...I decided to see if these folks were still around.
The guy gave the rig to his son in the late 90's and that rig is now in the hands of one of the grand kids......
Yup....Oldest grand kid is running it....Engine has not been touched since I worked on it.
The Kid loves that truck.......
So..... a lot of sin can be dealt with using some shade tree tech and get good results....
Yesssss...IT was a RED BLOCK....
That’s such a cool story and the good Lord provided! After I am done with this build, I will continue with the Redblock research.
should I use assembly lube for the piston bearings/rod bearings?
What Hone material should I use? Apparently there are several types of material Flex Hones.
OK GRASSHOPPER :D
A light coating of engine oil on the cylinder wall is fine.
Lube the piston and rings with the same engine oil.
BEST LUBE FOR BEARINGS.....Lubriplate 105 White grease.
This stuff stays in the bearings and does not run out even if you leave the engine sitting for months....
Priming the engine oil system is always preferred ....Chop the top off an old 6.2 vacuum pump that goes in the rear of the engine.
Keep the shaft long and weld on a nut to crank it.....Grind off the gear teeth smooth so it will spin freely....
This allows the oil passage that runs around the groove in the old vacuum pump unit just above the gear to send the oil to where it needs to go.....
You can crank this with an electric drill or a speed handle and primer the complete engine with oil..
I like to prime just before I button the valve covers on.....This lets you see that all the rockers are getting oil (All lifters are passing oil)
Be sure to connect a bypass hose to the oil cooler ports to let the oil flow as it will in the rig.
Never ever plug off the ports.....
This technique is pretty much standard on all engines that drive the oil pump off the camshaft.... There are primers made for common engines like SBC/BBC and so on.
The 6.2/6.5 is not common....gotta make your own......THE SHORT PUMP DRIVES ARE NOT A GOOD CHOICE....TOO SHORT...USE AN OLD VACUUM PUMP TYPE
OK GRASSHOPPER :D
A light coating of engine oil on the cylinder wall is fine.
Lube the piston and rings with the same engine oil.
BEST LUBE FOR BEARINGS.....Lubriplate 105 White grease.
This stuff stays in the bearings and does not run out even if you leave the engine sitting for months....
Priming the engine oil system is always preferred ....Chop the top off an old 6.2 vacuum pump that goes in the rear of the engine.
Keep the shaft long and weld on a nut to crank it.....Grind off the gear teeth smooth so it will spin freely....
This allows the oil passage that runs around the groove in the old vacuum pump unit just above the gear to send the oil to where it needs to go.....
You can crank this with an electric drill or a speed handle and primer the complete engine with oil..
I like to prime just before I button the valve covers on.....This lets you see that all the rockers are getting oil (All lifters are passing oil)
Be sure to connect a bypass hose to the oil cooler ports to let the oil flow as it will in the rig.
Never ever plug off the ports.....
This technique is pretty much standard on all engines that drive the oil pump off the camshaft.... There are primers made for common engines like SBC/BBC and so on.
The 6.2/6.5 is not common....gotta make your own......THE SHORT PUMP DRIVES ARE NOT A GOOD CHOICE....TOO SHORT...USE AN OLD VACUUM PUMP TYPE
Ok. Thanks for the advice!
Today, I got the lifters out, cleaned with brakekleen and now soaking in fresh oil.
Oil pan area mostly cleaned up. Will clean more after honing.
All pistons out, disassembled, sanded with 400 grit lightly with diesel fuel, cleaned in parts cleaner and kitchen sink with soap and water. Assembled and lubed. WD-40 on the rod to prevent rust while waiting for parts and tools.
Piston 5 had glow plug material jammed in piston. It’s out and looks good now.
Piston 8 had glow plug material jammed in the piston pin grove preventing it from coming out smooth. It’s out and installed smoothly.
I’ll get the crank out tomorrow and clean the timing cover deck on the motor.
Should I put Lubriplate 105 White grease on the piston pins?
Is there anything special about removing and installing the crank? Same White grease on the crank bearings as well?
Oil is fine on the piston pins.
105 grease on all of the crank bearings....
Make sure you keep all the bearings in the matching sets they were in and the location they were in....
Then you have no worries on the reassembly.....
Oil is fine on the piston pins.
105 grease on all of the crank bearings....
Make sure you keep all the bearings in the matching sets they were in and the location they were in....
Then you have no worries on the reassembly.....
Ok thanks!
So I have installed a few Kennedy main girdles in the past but never a full main stud kit. The customer asked me what was stronger between the 2 and told him I had no idea.
There has been a very small handful of reports on Optimizers webs cracking and I would like to minimize that risk for the customer. I think chamfering the web holes and filing sharp edges is a great start as learned from you Robyn :-)
What would be better?
Girdle or full main stud kit or both?
Pick one......The only thing I have done is the LOCK N STITCH INSERTS
More Power
06-27-2022, 09:40
...clip...I like to prime just before I button the valve covers on.....This lets you see that all the rockers are getting oil (All lifters are passing oil)...
When I pre-oiled the 6.5 in Sarah's Blazer, I left the valve covers off to check for oil at the rockers... This was the first 6.5 I'd pre-oiled, so I had no prior knowledge of what was normal... Just for background, all of the pushrods had been cleaned with brake cleaner inside/outside, checked for straightness and then oriented correctly before installation. Then the valve train was assembled. I had used chassis lube on the pushrod ends, ends of the valve stems and rocker pivots, and motor oil on the lifters as they were installed. Then, I squirted more motor oil on the rockers and valve stems (stem seal areas).
After having run the oil pump drive for quite a bit during the pre-oil stage (with the valve covers off) I never did see oil at any of the rockers, even though the engine had been under ~35 psi of oil pressure all during the pre-oil stage. I puzzled over this for some time, a little concerned at first... There was plenty of oil/pressure at the turbo oil feed line. That line was capped off once oil flow was verified, so I could continue priming the oil system - thinking I could get oil through the pushrods and spill onto the rockers. Didn't happen.
I think the lifters need to be in operation - in a rotating engine for oil to be pumped through the pushrods. Didn't think it was possible for all 16 lifters/pushrods to be a problem... so I considered what I saw to be normal.
The engine now has about 900 miles on it, mostly at 60-70 mph. So far so good...
On edit... GM's recommended maximum cylinder overbore is 0.030", but we all know pistons are available in larger sizes. Personally, if the decision is made to fix that deep scratch, I'd consider having a sleeve installed in that cylinder that is bored to match the piston you already have. If nothing else, this saves the cost of new pistons and rings. This repair procedure was done for the 6.5 in Sarah's Blazer... due to the melted piston and scored cylinder problem. All this happened before I became involved with the Blazer. I don't know if that cylinder could have been cleaned up with a .030/.040 overbore, or if it required more. The Blazer came with a "new takeout" set of eight standard pistons/rings, which is what I used. If I remember correctly, the pistons came from a guy who had swapped the stock pistons for 18:1 pistons in a new/reman engine he was working on. So, this meant he could sell the practically new standard pistons to recoup some of the cost of upgrading. All of the Blazer's 6.5 bores and ringed pistons were mic'ed to produce the best fit - all were well within factory clearance specs.
This is the second engine I've been involved with that had a cast iron sleeve installed. The first engine was in our 6.5TD Power Project truck (https://www.thedieselpage.com/finale.htm), which accumulated 300K miles before being sold. Based on these two examples, I don't see a problem with properly installed sleeves. The engine shop in Hamilton MT installed the Blazer sleeve. I'm not necessarily advocating for sleeves, just suggesting options.
When I pre-oiled the 6.5 in Sarah's Blazer, I left the valve covers off to check for oil at the rockers... This was the first 6.5 I'd pre-oiled, so I had no prior knowledge of what was normal... Just for background, all of the pushrods had been cleaned with brake cleaner inside/outside, checked for straightness and then oriented correctly before installation. Then the valve train was assembled. I had used chassis lube on the pushrod ends, ends of the valve stems and rocker pivots, and motor oil on the lifters as they were installed. Then, I squirted more motor oil on the rockers and valve stems (stem seal areas).
After having run the oil pump drive for quite a bit during the pre-oil stage (with the valve covers off) I never did see oil at any of the rockers, even though the engine had been under ~35 psi of oil pressure all during the pre-oil stage. I puzzled over this for some time, a little concerned at first... There was plenty of oil/pressure at the turbo oil feed line. That line was capped off once oil flow was verified, so I could continue priming the oil system - thinking I could get oil through the pushrods and spill onto the rockers. Didn't happen.
I think the lifters need to be in operation - in a rotating engine for oil to be pumped through the pushrods. Didn't think it was possible for all 16 lifters/pushrods to be a problem... so I considered what I saw to be normal.
The engine now has about 900 miles on it, mostly at 60-70 mph. So far so good...
On edit... GM's recommended maximum cylinder overbore is 0.030", but we all know pistons are available in larger sizes. Personally, if the decision is made to fix that deep scratch, I'd consider having a sleeve installed in that cylinder that is bored to match the piston you already have. If nothing else, this saves the cost of new pistons and rings. This repair procedure was done for the 6.5 in Sarah's Blazer... due to the melted piston and scored cylinder problem. All this happened before I became involved with the Blazer. I don't know if that cylinder could have been cleaned up with a .030/.040 overbore, or if it required more. The Blazer came with a "new takeout" set of eight standard pistons/rings, which is what I used. If I remember correctly, the pistons came from a guy who had swapped the stock pistons for 18:1 pistons in a new/reman engine he was working on. So, this meant he could sell the practically new standard pistons to recoup some of the cost of upgrading. All of the Blazer's 6.5 bores and ringed pistons were mic'ed to produce the best fit - all were well within factory clearance specs.
This is the second engine I've been involved with that had a cast iron sleeve installed. The first engine was in our 6.5TD Power Project truck (https://www.thedieselpage.com/finale.htm), which accumulated 300K miles before being sold. Based on these two examples, I don't see a problem with properly installed sleeves. The engine shop in Hamilton MT installed the Blazer sleeve. I'm not necessarily advocating for sleeves, just suggesting options.
Sweet! That is great to know! Thank you sir! Are there any specs in those awesome books I bought from you? I have not read threw them all yet.
Would the 1999 6.5 209 page service manual be ok to use for the 2003 NAVSTAR?
More Power
06-30-2022, 14:09
I think the 6.5TD Volume III has specs on pistons, rings, and bearing clearances.
Without looking at the "1999 Service Manual", I'd say the odds are good that the information would be relevant to the 2003 engine.
BTW - in conversing with Robyn, I learned that the way I spun the engine's oil pump may have reduced the oil pressure to the lifter oil galleys. Robyn suggested that the complete oil pump drive assembly should be used when spinning the oil pump, instead of just a hex socket and extension to turn the oil pump drive shaft. Seems that should allow for more oil pressure seen by the lifters, which may have allowed oil to migrate up the pushrods. Robyn had modified an oil pump drive to allow it to be spun externally (removed the cam gear on the oil pump drive and opened the top of the oil pump drive to allow it to be driven by a drill or...). I'd like to see all this in operation sometime... I'm just curious.
I think the 6.5TD Volume III has specs on pistons, rings, and bearing clearances.
Without looking at the "1999 Service Manual", I'd say the odds are good that the information would be relevant to the 2003 engine.
BTW - in conversing with Robyn, I learned that the way I spun the engine's oil pump may have reduced the oil pressure to the lifter oil galleys. Robyn suggested that the complete oil pump drive assembly should be used when spinning the oil pump, instead of just a hex socket and extension to turn the oil pump drive shaft. Seems that should allow for more oil pressure seen by the lifters, which may have allowed oil to migrate up the pushrods. Robyn had modified an oil pump drive to allow it to be spun externally (removed the cam gear on the oil pump drive and opened the top of the oil pump drive to allow it to be driven by a drill or...). I'd like to see all this in operation sometime... I'm just curious.
Yeah I think Casey made one on his build. Some great info there.
Update:
Motor torn all apart. Honed all 8 cylinders for 45 seconds as per instructions. Cylinder walls look a lot better but still some groves showing. Chamfered the web bolts and filed the sharp edges. Even chamfered the starter bolt holes and filed the edge that usually breaks. Washed the motor twice! Every part got refurbished, super cleaned and lubed before install. Used the 105 grease on everything that moves. I installed all new rings. Cam, crank, caps, oil pump, oil pan, new block heater, new freeze plugs, new rear main, all new gaskets, girdle installed. Took the heads to a shop to get deep cleaned and inspected. Hopefully all the head specs are good. Even chamfered the upper and lower plenum bolt holes because the aluminum cast sometimes break. Here’s pics.
Edit: Also chased all the head bolt holes 3 times with a 12x1.75 tap before I washed it. There was a lot of sand that came out of the coolant freeze plug ports apon washing.
https://www.thedieselpageforums.com/tdpforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6694&d=1661292647
https://www.thedieselpageforums.com/tdpforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6695&d=1661292711
https://www.thedieselpageforums.com/tdpforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6696&d=1661292741
https://www.thedieselpageforums.com/tdpforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6697&d=1661292765
https://www.thedieselpageforums.com/tdpforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6698&d=1661292790
https://www.thedieselpageforums.com/tdpforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6699&d=1661292819
https://www.thedieselpageforums.com/tdpforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6700&d=1661292846
https://www.thedieselpageforums.com/tdpforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6701&d=1661292868
https://www.thedieselpageforums.com/tdpforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6702&d=1661292894
https://www.thedieselpageforums.com/tdpforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6703&d=1661292918
https://www.thedieselpageforums.com/tdpforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6705&d=1661292976
https://www.thedieselpageforums.com/tdpforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6704&d=1661292943
https://www.thedieselpageforums.com/tdpforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6705&d=1661292976
https://www.thedieselpageforums.com/tdpforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6704&d=1661292943
Also refurbished the upper and lower plenums, valve covers, steel 9 blade fan upgrade, painted the ORD motor mounts, refurbished the GM8 Turbo and a bunch of other stuff. Added 1/8 npt ports for the boost gauge and pyro gauge.
https://www.thedieselpageforums.com/tdpforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6708&d=1661297453
https://www.thedieselpageforums.com/tdpforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6709&d=1661297468
This weekend I plan on finishing everything except the heads. Get it all assembled as a long block and test run it after the heads are on. If the numbers look good and it runs good, I will install the turbo and serpentine and other small odds and ends and get her swapped out! Crossing my fingers with my first lower end rebuild.
Edit: On a side note, this Optimizer has already been sleeved on 2 cylinders. This motor has been threw hell and back. I can only imagine how many soldiers lives this motor has saved and/or how much work she has had. Being optimistic, we are doing our best to save it!
Looks great....
Thanks! Any guesses on how sand got inside the coolant passages? Maybe the soldiers were in a pinch and used muddy water to fill up the coolant?
Or
Maybe they utilized the snorkel on the Humvee and submerged the whole vehicle in muddy water and fried the glow plug system causing the glow sticks to melt?
Lots of assumptions.
My guess is it's left over from the casting process. Probably running over a couple of IUDs shook it loose.
DmaxMaverick
08-24-2022, 11:30
IUDs? Can't see it, myself.
I agree about the casting sand. I've seen that a few times.
sctrailrider
08-24-2022, 14:55
This is my version of a main cap "Halo" girdle, uses the inside 10 holes....
6710
Yukon6.2
08-25-2022, 10:01
This is my version of a main cap "Halo" girdle, uses the inside 10 holes....
6710
Very nice...
would you ship to Canada?
Asking for a friend
sctrailrider
08-25-2022, 13:55
Sure, I'm waiting on arp to restock the studs right now.
sctrailrider
08-30-2022, 14:29
Very nice...
would you ship to Canada?
Asking for a friend
Sets will be ready in 3 weeks....
Quick update!
The new rings did not like the scratches on the cylinders. I took the motor apart this winter and it is currently getting power honed and all new bearings. As soon as it is out of the machine shop, I’ll start putting it back together again and test run it!
It has been a long crappy winter and I did not get much done.
Machine shop measured the crank main and rod journals to be a standard size. Even after polishing them.
The Rod and Main bearings however are both .26 which is about 1000th of an inch tighter.
The machine shop thinks that is odd. Does that seem right to yal?
Bearings on these engine are "Select fit" It is not uncommon to find several different sized bearing shells in the engine.
The finished size of the large end of the rod can vary a few tenth's of a thou....
A good rule of thumb on these engines is .0025" clearance across the board.....(Rods and mains)
FACTORY SPECS ON THE MAINS = .0017"-.0032"
FACTORY SPECS ON THE RODS = .0017"-.0039"
IMHO.....0017" IS TOO TIGHT......
A nice sweet spot at .0025" is a warm and fuzzy place to be.
The lower end of the tolerance is what I call "Squeakville"
The middle of the road give a tad bit of "Comfort"
With your crank at standard size ....STD BEARINGS SHOULD DROP YOU RIGHT IN THE SWEET SPOT.
PLASTIGAGE EACH BEARING......
Do this dry...DO NOT ALLOW THINGS TO TURN.
Plastigage will give you good results. REMOVE PLASTIGAGE AFTER READING IS TAKEN..
YESSSSS..The little funky scale on the paper sleeve of the plastigage is accurate..
Do the mains with the crank sitting in a position that you can get to all the caps easily.
Sit the dry crank in on dry bearings....do the plastigage measurement on each bearing one at a time..... Place the plastigage across the journal....NOT around the circumference..A tiny tiny touch of oil will stick the PG to the journal so it does not go MIA ON YOU
If all is good.....Remove the crank.....apply lubriplate 105 (White grease) to the bearings....Drop the crank back in and button the mains up to torque EXCEPT the thrust main......
INSTALL THE THRUST MAIN.....*****SNUG THE BOLTS VERY LIGHTLY*****
Whack the crank from both ends back and forth to get the thrust surface settled in.....
Check the end play.... .005" - .010" is perfect.
Torque the thrust main......Recheck the end play
Turn the crank......It should turn freely without any tight spots......
The White grease is the best assembly lube....IT NEVER RUNS OUT DURING STORAGE.
Always use a modified oil pump drive (Vacuum pump) to prime the system.
Driving the oil pump shaft without a drive filling the bore will NOT get the engine primed...
The oil dumps right back to the sump.
Prime on the stand with the valve covers OFF....Be sure every rocker has oil to it.......
Cardboard on the lower side of the rocker chamber will keep the mess in check...
Some times a couple lifters will be a tad stubborn ....More priming....hand bar the engine over to get the valve train in a different location......They will all oil eventually...
A DRY ROCKER CAN DESTROY ITSELF QUICKLY ON STARTUP IF IT IS NOT OILING..
Plug the turbo fitting if it is a turbo engine during priming.......Put a short jumper hose on the cooler lines to allow oil to flow properly
Once primed...Good to go... as all the internal oil passages are filled with oil.......
Rear main seal can usually be installed with the engine on the stand......(Single piece type)
AFTER PRIMING IS DONE....
Allow oil to drain out of the Valve chamber area....Wipe the cover mating surface with BRAKLEEN ....Apply RTV AND CAREFULLY SIT THE COVERS ON THE HEADS
*****SNUG***** the bolts gently with a hand nut driver GENTLY
Let the RTV cure overnight ....Then finish snugging the bolts.......Getting overly GUNG HO on these bolts can result in a leaker....
The Pan is best installed with RTV as well....Some gasket kits have pan gaskets.....NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.....Install the rear pan seal over the rear main.....Apply RTV as was done on the VC....
Same procedure......SNUG all bolts up GENTLY
Pan should contact the rail.....Let RTV cure ....Finish the torque the next day.....Good to go......
DO NOT BE EXCITED ABOUT USING GASKETS ON THE VC....They will leak.....
The VC on these engines are just too flimsy to work with gaskets.
CLEANLINESS AND OIL FREE SURFACES are the key to a good dry engine.....
Have fun
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