Acceleration 0-60 in 19sec ?!?! WTF?

[ssybert]

I just picked up a 1996 Chevy 3500 1-ton Dually. It's got 95K mi. on it, 235-85/R16 tires and a 6.5L TD engine in it. This is my first diesel and dont know much about their preformance. Ever since I got it I've felt dissapointed in it's power. I know these engines are supposed to be torque monsters but it can barely maintain 50mph up a steep hill. My car did better this this truck. Whats it going to do when I have a load on it? I think there's something wrong here. Last night I took it down a straight, flat road and it did 0 - 60mph in 19 SECONDS. This sounds NUTS. I'm getting an average of just under 12 mpg. I live in New Hampshire and it's DAMN cold here so I suspect it has something to do with the gas. It was a florida truck and when It got delivered, I calculated the mileage based on what the trip said (dont know if it was reset on last fill but I would suspect it was) and it calculated out to about 13 mpg.

Everything sound right here?

Thanks guys,

Scott.

[Marty Lau]

Scott;
You should have better performance, it could be one or several things. I your speedometer maybe off as you have lager than stock tires for a dually. 2. Do you get a bunch of black smoke when you put your foot into it? If so that could indicate that you have no boost pressure or you need new injectors. If the Turbo is good and you have no boost it's could be the waste gate controller under the Turbo. The little phoney lines that provides vacum to it get real brittle over time and heat and crack and leak. What I did was take the vacum controller off and throw it away and got a Heath Turbo Master cost $69.
Injectors cost about $40 each for new Bosch.

Also it take mucho patience to "fill" these trucks up. Thats the only way to get true accurate measure of MPG. Oh yeah small item we DON'T PUT GAS in these trucks it's either fuel or Diesel. Gas messes things up big time. Another way to check MPG is fuel from the same place park the truck in the same spot as practical, set the auto filler on the pump to lowest setting and when it click off thats it. Do that the next time and you have a pretty close reading on usage, but if you fill to the top of the neck it will tack 10-15 minutes longer and take 3-5 gallons. Diesel fuel foams while filling.
Winter blend and #1 lowers MPG as they have less BTU's per gallon than straight #2. Also speed makes big difference, you will get your good MPG at 1800 rpm at what ever speed that is for your truck, for mine it's 65 mph, you drop about 1 mpg for every 5 mph faster you drive. At 65mph I get about 21 mpg at 75 I get about 19 mpg. My best tank was almost 25 mpg but I drove 55mph for 400 miles. Your RPM is most likly higher because of higher gear ratio (4.10's or 4.56's) but thats just a guess.
Hope this gives you place to start. Also on The Diesel Page read " A Diesel Primer" in the memebers area that is a good base point.

[95-6.5]

no..Mine had the same issue when i first got it.It ended up being the solonoid that controls the vac to the turbo.Its on the drivers side of the engine towards the back.Abou the size of a bic lighter.just follow the small black line from the turbo.You cant test this and the vac pump easily.when the truck is running at idle see if you can move the arm that is kind of at the front of the turbo.this is what controls the ammount of boost.If the pump is out you can get one at pepboys,i paid $60 for mine and i paid 20 for the solonoid part...other people can tell you the exact names..once i replaced it the truck ran like a muther.If im at a stop light next to a stock 1500 v8 i can rip it off the line untill about 50 then they will pass me.Ive got 4:10's so i run out of gear pretty soon..

[ssybert]

Thanks for the suggestions guys! I didn't know it was that hard to "fill" this truck. I did notice the foam settled and I could continue to add more fuel for what looked like eternity. I know, I know.. I've been repremanded a couple times already.. DIESEL DIESEL DIESEL :D . Anyone have more info on these turbo vaccuum solinoid parts? I'd like to start there. Sounds like a good thing to check first. The guy who suggessted I check it mentioned the arm on the front of the turbo... He wasn't real clear as to what to do with it. Can someone elaborate a litle. I've never owned a vehicle with a turbo either so I dont know what it would feel like working/not working. A friend of mine who works WITH diesel equipment all day says when I stomp on the peddle, he can hear the turbo winding up and down from the exhaust pipe as I rev the engine. Dont know if this means anything but I figured I'd mention it.

Lastly, When I'm on the highway... 55MPH is turning roughly 1950-2000 rpms. 6500 is turning 2350 and 75 is turning 2600 or so.

These numbers seem REAL high. I can imagine driving 65 mph is helping my fuel economy any. I've been keeping my eyes open for a GV OD, used of course.. WAY too much new.

Scott.

[Laffman]

Scott,

You're getting the same numbers I get. I have a '95 dually crew with a 6.5td. The 4.10 rear end really kills the MPG, but makes pulling my 10,000 lbs. camper easy. Somewhere on the Diesel Page is an estimated MPG chart for each gear ratio. For the 4.10, it is 13-15 MPG.

Changing to a larger exhaust is the first step you should take in getting more power. I installed a Banks Stinger exhaust a month after I got the truck. It made a big difference.

And I never take the truck over 65. You can actually watch the fuel needle move over to "E" if you do. Your MPG will drop down to single digits.

[95-6.5]

forgot to tell you what to do with the arm...
When the truck is idleing see if you can move it freely,it should be hard to move.if not then its not giving you the boost you need.when the truck is off see how easy it is to move,you should hear the air going in and out.thats what controls the boost.I have a 3/4 and i get about the same speeds as you with the same rpms.Going over 65 will cause your truck to drink gas.I have some property about 70mls from my house,if i drive under 65 the needle barely moves.if i drive 75 its moves real fast...these trucks were built for pulling not speeding.. :D

[Marty Lau]

Originally posted by 95-6.5:
If the pump is out you can get one at pepboys,i paid $60 for mine and i paid 20 for the solonoid part...other people can tell you the exact names..once i replaced it the truck ran like a muther.If your Turbo spins why fool with the stock Waste gate system when you can get a TurboMaster for $69 then you don't have to ever worry about the Vacum system and you can increase boost with the turn of wrench. I wanted to increase boost 2 psi per Bill Heath so I just adjusted a nut and TAADAA 2 psi more boost. Do what you want but why replace afailure prone system with a failure prone system. Also do a time check on your speedo as over size tire could be showing you going slower than you are. For example if your tire size is 10% greater than stock and your VSSB was not replaced or corrected for the change if your indicating 60 mph you could really be going 66 mph. And if you show 100 miles traveled that means you really traveled 110 miles and if you figure you got 13 mpg you really got 14.3 mpg. Also could mean a speeding ticket.

Caveat be carefull about adding extra boost without EGT and Boost Gage.

[ssybert]

I'm in the process of doing (well, parts are on order) a Greasel conversion. I need to get a guage pod for fuel temp and fuel remaining. I figured I'd get a 3 guage pod and put in boost anyway. Who makes a turbo stock and doesn't put a guage INSIDE the dash?! What was Chevy thinking??! Idiots.

[patrick m.]

i havent seen any other trucks with boost guages from the factory either.
only little rice rockets have them, the Grand National and relatives, and t-bird s/c.

[N9Phil]

Scott, When I got my first Diesel Suburban I started to look for web sites with diesel info. The Diesel Page is by far the best one. I did find another site that has all the tech info on most vehicles and is also very good. It is also a subscription site and you can get the info based on your vehicle. http://www.alldatadiy.com/


N9Phil

[ssybert]

Ok... On the turbo arm thing, here's my results: I got along side the turbo on the passenger side, while the engine was idling. I saw the vaccuum driver thing that connects to the arm and it appeared to be pulling the arm UP. I pulled the hose off the vaccuum device and the arm fell to the bottom. Put the hose back on and the hose came right up to the top. I followed the BLACK hose that came out of the vaccuum lifting thing (what's this thing called?!) and it met up with an ORANGE HOSE, which I assume was the vaccuum source and they both went back to to the relay device. I removed the power cable from the relay and went back to the turbo and the arm appeared to have dropped to about 1/2 way down. I plugged it back in and it came back up to the top. I had a buddy rev the engine and the arm dropped a time bit. I had him REALLY rev it... getting up on 3000rpm's and it moved maybe 2/5th's of the way... just shy of 1/2 way down.. then when he came off the throttle, it came back up to the top.

Ok.. looks like this thing passes the tests, right? I'd like to check into this waste gate. Can someone please explain a little more to me about how it works and what I should do to verify it's working? It sounds to me like I it's how the exhaust gets OUT of the turbo? If I do infact get the aftermarket one mentioned, I'm going to need a boost guage huh? I'll get cracking on finding some good guages and a pod for my pillar.

Thanks guys.

Scott.

[AJ650]

That little are you were moving is attached to the waste-gate, which opens at higher pressures to allow some of the exhaust to basically bypass the turbo. You can adjust the amount of pressure required to open your waste-gate to give you more boost, but only to certain levels. If you go too high you won't see any additional benefit and you will begin seeing problems. Stock set up was 5-7 lbs of boost max, which is not a lot. GM originally installed the turbo to clean up the engine's emissions, and not to really provide power. Most people recomemnd a max of 10-12 lbs on a non-intercooled engine. After 12-14 or so the turbo is pretty much pushing all the air it can, and more will just increase the backpressure between the turbo and the engine. Your intake temps will also rise dramatically, which is a bad thing. And as most people will tell you, don't do anything to your boost or fuel rate until you have gauges installed to monitor your temps and boost levels.

[moondoggie]

Good Day!

There's really no reason to check the Wastegate Actuator system until you know if you have a problem. HOW DO YOU KNOW IF YOU HAVE A PROBLEM? Extremely simple: Do you ever get significant quantities of black smoke? Black smoke (mostly) indicates too much fuel and/or not enough air. Too much fuel doesn't happen; inadequate air generally means inadequate boost.

If you have black smoke, THEN start looking at the Wastegate Actuator system. I'm way too lazy to check out things that probably are working right. ;)

Blessings!

Brian Johnson, #5044

[ssybert]

Well, sounds like I dont have a waste gate problem. You guys mentioned a couple times to look for black smoke.. I see none. Maybe some blue smoke when I start it up in the morning, but after it's running, there is no color coming from the exhaust at all. At least, none that i've ever been able to see.

Any other suggestions? I know it's a big truck, but it just plain cannot get out of it's own way for the life of it. There's got to be something wrong. I was in Maine heading up a steep hill and it couldn't hold FIFTY MPH?! That can't be right. 2 people in the cab, nothing in tow and it can't hold FIFTY?!

Any other suggestions would be appreciated.

Thanks for all the help so far everyone!!

Scott.

[markrinker]

With the absense of black smoke (unburnt fuel) I would concentrate on

1) Dirty, plugged airfilter or other restricted air intake;
2) Plugged catalytic converter or other exhaust restriction;
3) Bad or fouled injectors.

Before you tear into replacing injectors, running a few tankfuls of diesel and aftermarket injector cleaner would be an inexpensive, good idea.

[moondoggie]

Good Day!

Maybe you ARE shy of fuel! I'd check codes next. Too bad you're OBDII - I can get codes with a paper clip, you'll need a reader to get yours.

Lots of the things that can cause short fuel that are mechanical in nature, won't throw a code, & (fortunately) will cause more symptoms (bucking, etc.) than simply lack of power & poor economy.

However, if the PCM thinks the engine's too hot (different sensor than the gauge uses), or there's too much boost (hook up, even temporarily, a boost gauge), it will cut fuel. These things, fortunately, will throw a code.

All above advice by other folks is good.

The reason most of us work on our own trucks is that you simply can't find anyone that knows their butt from page 8 when it comes to diesels. :mad: You may have bought your truck from someone that simply couldn't find anyone to fix it. With perseverance & help from the Page, you can make your truck sing - on-key, even. smile.gif

You might want to look at my post in What's your fuel mileage with a load? (http://forum.thedieselpage.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=004439#000014) (Click in colored text.) You guys with duals sure seem to pay a penalty in fuel economy. My pickup is 3/4 ton, same tires as yours, & 4.10 gears.

Blessings!

Brian Johnson, #5044

[Marty Lau]

Originally posted by ssybert:
Well, sounds like I dont have a waste gate problem. You guys mentioned a couple times to look for black smoke.. I see none. Maybe some blue smoke when I start it up in the morning, but after it's running, there is no color coming from the exhaust at all. At least, none that i've ever been able to see.


Scott. Scott,
What we mean with the black smoke is when you put your foot into it do you see black smoke. That means your not getting enough air or boost. Moondoggie has a good point too if your not getting enough fuel.....then you be not making many ponies. You need fuel and air but no spark.
These things will run with very little fuel unlike a gaser if not enough fuel too lean and won't run. Keep the faith and we may help, again check your oddometer readings against know distance.

[ssybert]

I'll check that at lunch time today. I do know one thing.. the air filter looked like something that was dug up in the back yard when I replaced it. The oil was BLACK BLACK BLACK and I can't imagine the fuel filter has been changed any time recently. The truck's got 95K mi on it. Could a clogged fuel filter be the cause? I guess I should replace it anyway just to give myself a baseline for it's last replacement. I'll do a fuel filter at noon and check for that black smoke when I hammer on it.

Scott.

[moondoggie]

Good Day!

A long time ago an old-timer told me that if there's anything wrong with the way a diesel runs, change air & fuel filters 1st. This advice has probably lost some relevance for modern diesel engines, but

[Cowracer]

Originally posted by Laffman:
And I never take the truck over 65. You can actually watch the fuel needle move over to "E" if you do. Your MPG will drop down to single digits. I take exception to this statement. I have 4.56 gears, stock tires, never run under 70 on hiways and mall parking lots and I return on average 13-14 mpg.

Tim

PS And I flog the crap out of my truck ever day. Some DP members would have me brought up on abuse charges if they ever rode with me. smile.gif

[Barra]

The oil was BLACK BLACK BLACK Diesels do that. Check your oil a couple days after you change it...it'll look like it's been there for years. Changing the oil certainly won't hurt. If the air filter was as bad as it sounds, you could be right that the oil hadn't been changed in living memory either.

Good luck with the power problems!
Barra

[C.K. Piquup]

I`d do the turbo boost solenoid regardless($25+/-)Your tires are over-size diameter.That`ll affect the VSS readings at the ECM.This affects shifting,fuel delivery,and also speedo/odo readings.

[JohnC]

Originally posted by ssybert:
Ok... I had a buddy rev the engine and the arm dropped a time bit. I had him REALLY rev it... getting up on 3000rpm's and it moved maybe 2/5th's of the way... just shy of 1/2 way down..

Ok.. looks like this thing passes the tests, right? Actually, this doesn't sound right. I don't think you can develope enough boost and exhaust pressure, with no load on the engine, to open the wastegate, assuming everything is working correctly. Tap into the vacuum line going to the waste gate controller with a vacuum gauge. Unloaded you should see about 15" of vacuum under all circumstances. This should be plenty to hold the wastegate closed. If you see less, possible causes include a leaking vacuum line, bad wastegate solenoid, bad vacuum pump (check with vacuum guage), or bad (leaking) wastegate controller.

[Billman]

Scott

Check the exhaust system.

Gut/remove catalytic converter like Mark said the other day.

That would be my guess too...

[Barry Nave]

Scott
Any up date to your low power?

[JoeyD]

Scott, I don't know where in NH you are but I am 30 minutes from the NH border down 93. I could look it over for you and we could compare power. I can help with the basic stuff and if needed I have a friend at the dealer in Wakefield that is great with the 6.5's.

[ssybert]

Hey guys... Last couple days have been a bit busy for me. Thanks for all the great suggestions. Ok.. Here's what I've got:

I replaced the fuel filter. All I can say is "Holy Christ". That thing was unbelievable. The one I put in was white and clean looking, the one I took out was the color of old wet cardboard. It was so filthy I couldn't believe it. After installing the new one (and spilling diesel all over the driveway purging out air :rolleyes: ) I IMMEDIATLY noticed a improvement in power. I haven't had a chance to to a timed 0-60 run. I'll do that tonight. I know my speed is off with the tires and all.. I'll bring the GPS and see how much I'm off. I think it's about 3+/- mph.

Back to the black smoke issue... A friend reported back smoke from my exhaust. What I did was lay into it and radio back to him to find out if it was smoking... he said "Yup it's smoking" when I burried it. When it shifted from 1st to 2nd and the rpm dropped he said "Oh yeah, there it is". So I'm guessing it's puffing black when I'm really flogging it. I do not have a vaccuum guage so I'll have to either borrow one or buy one to get an idea of that vaccuum pressure. Based on these findings, whats the prognosis, doc? :confused:

Good idea on gutting that cat. I'll pull it and empty it out next week. I've got the week off and will have plenty of time for this kind of work. That alone I'm sure will make an improvement. I forgot all about the fact that diesels dont need to pass an emissions test!! :D

Joey, Thank you for the offer. I'm going to try to get everything resolved with all you guys on TDP first then maybe we can meet up for a comparision / professional opionion? I do appreciate the offer and will most likely take you up on it ;) .

Thanks again everyone,
Scott.

[Marty Lau]

Originally posted by ssybert:
I'll check that at lunch time today. I do know one thing.. the air filter looked like something that was dug up in the back yard when I replaced it. The oil was BLACK BLACK BLACK and I can't imagine the fuel filter has been changed any time recently. The truck's got 95K mi on it. Could a clogged fuel filter be the cause? I guess I should replace it anyway just to give myself a baseline for it's last replacement. I'll do a fuel filter at noon and check for that black smoke when I hammer on it.

Scott. Scott;
Those dirt air and fuel filter could make a big difference! Less air to burn the fuel and less fuel to provide power. I again would get rid of the vacum controlled wastegate stuff. Yeah if you replace them they will work until tehy crap out again or the vacum line leaks. If you install a boost and exhaust gages you can then tell if you have boost or not and with the Turbo Master you can crank it up a bit with out throwing codes and not have to ever monkey with the vacum system again.
I have another possiblity, while checking out my Heath MaxETork chip I put the stock one back in and make a hard pull, I had the boost cranked up and when the Exhaust temps got up there the computer pulled away full and didn't bring it back until I reset the codes. Maybe that happened to the previous owner it got to max the computer went to low fuel delivery and now has to be reset. On the '94 & '95's I know how to do it and is easy. On a 96 I'm not sure how to reset or clear the codes. Just a thought.

You should also put a transmission fluid and filter change on your list(I assume you have the automatic) if the person that had it let the air and fuel filter get to the point you talk about it's a pretty sure bet the transmission was neglected too.

[ 02-23-2004, 07:23 AM: Message edited by: 16ga SxS ]

[ssybert]

Yes.. Next weeks fluid changes include another oil change, transmission fluid, transfer case, front and rear diffs and maybe coolant.

[Barry Nave]

Now is the time to be a 6.5 junky. Seem's the other owner just drove it, then when trouble came it was time to unload :mad:
These diesels are so easy to work on and with once you learn how it works :D
I know many members think the DS4 is junk yet it to is easy to work with. I had a crank sencer go out yet the codes showed the truck falling apart :rolleyes:
As been said in the past,start with the lower codes and go from there :D
OK I'm out of line redface.gif

[JoeyD]

Some smoke is normal, so don't get concerned if it's more of a haze. If it's a locamotive then you need to investigate.
Have the trans flushed not just droping the pan when changing the filter. Most shops have a machine that they install on the trans lines and swap out the fluid. Enjoy and let me know, maybe we can race :D

[ssybert]

Well the truck is at a local garage geting something up front fixed. I was driving home last night and the ftont left started shaking every once in a while... then it was almost all the time, then it was non-stop. The shaking came with loss of stearing and a strong drag to the left. When I pulled over to inspect it, I found the front left tire was tilted in on the top and while looking from under the front of the truck toward the inside of the tire, the rotor appeared to be pulled away from the hub (?) at the bottom. The brakes were smoking, I'd assume because whatever holds that tire assembly ON broke and now all the weight of the tire is pressing against the rotor, which is putting pressure on the brake pads. I'll find out this afternoon how many hundreds of dollars it's going to cost me to get fixed.

FYI, stay away from RJR Auto Sales in Miami Florida. They are a bunch of liars, mislead me and decieved me. Thats what I get for trusting a car salesmen over the internet. :-(

I'll have more updates on the ORIGINAL problem once I get the truck back and am able to further troubleshoot.

--Scott.

[NOEL_ISAAC]

scott, your loss of power may have been cause by something in your front end, which i see has recently gone bad. do you think it is possible that your brakes have been dragging alll along, or your bearings freezing up in the hub? just a thought. also, go by 2 dollars worth of 1/8 inch flexible tubing and completely bypass the waste gate tube to the solenoid with it. thats what i had to do a few years ago, and it worked. i even had vacuum at the turbo at idle, but it sucked hard enough during operation that the crack in the line let it all in then. I have also had 2 vacuum pumps go bad...what a pain to replace.

good luck

[ssybert]

Update:

Front left hub bearing dried up. Aparently it's not a serviceable bearing. Comes installed in the hub and cannot be greased. It dried up and took the hub out wit hit. $580.00 installed. Ugh... Didn't help power any after it was replaced but the rattling up front went away :)

I drilled a tap into the intake plenum and put a boost guage on it temporarially. Revved the engine good and it wouldn't boost at ALL. Took it out and around and all I could get out of it was 1lb. I parked it, manually forced the waste gate completly closed and wedged it so it couldn't open and I was able to generate 5lb's out of it. The wastegate did NOT feel firm. I could hear it rattling around inside the manifold(?) as I moved it trying to wedge it. It didn't sound like it was a very air tight device. At idle, with everything hooked up correctly, a good hard rev will drop it open almost half way.

I tried removing the boost sensor that talks to the PCM and it sent the wastegate going crazy. I dont know if it's going bad, but it's atleast keeping the wastegate consistant, even if it's consistantly wrong?

One other thing... A buddy of mine has a 2001 F250 PowerStroke and when he steps on it you can really hear that turbo whining. It's a high pitched scream. My truck doesn't do anything like that. I thought I could hear a fan kind of a noise coming out of the exhaust, but it's nothing like a big rig, tow truck or my friends powerstroke. My truck doesn't make any kind of high pitched noises like these other trucks.

I pulled off the intake from the turbo and the fan inside spins freely and smoothly. It doesn't tough the sides at all and spins for ever. If I start up the truck, it's starts spining like crazy. I'm I looking in the right direction? This turbo seems to be way off.

Any ideas?

One last thing, I promise.. then I had the intake off the turbo I also had to remove the PCV hose.. when the truck was running, alot of smoke was coming out of that hose. My buddy told me that was blow-by and most likely a ring problem. There was also a build-up of black crud in the rubber intake the hose plugged into. I scraped most of it out with a screwdriver.

Scott.

Ideas? Input?

[whatnot]

Do NOT bypass the wastegate solenoid with hose.
If you want to take control of it away from the computer and never have a problem with it again, buy a turbomaster Turbo-Master (http://www.heathdiesel.com/?action=prodinfo&id=HDP1246)
You can probably go a little over stock setting without setting a code. If you want to get more boost than that, you can either buy an electronic controller too or just wire in some resistors to keep it from setting a code.
If you raise to boost up to 10 or 12 psi it will probably be real noticable in power over stock.

[JoeyD]

Scott, The hose that goes into the intake, from the valve cover, I removed it from there and used a coupling and ran it down under the truck. Why let the crap go into the intake. Your buddy's Powerstroke uses the same type of sytem and routes the crank gasses into the intake as well. I got the idea from a PSD guy who did it to his truck.

[Marty Lau]

Originally posted by whatnot:
Do NOT bypass the wastegate solenoid with hose.
If you want to take control of it away from the computer and never have a problem with it again, buy a turbomaster Turbo-Master (http://www.heathdiesel.com/?action=prodinfo&id=HDP1246)
You can probably go a little over stock setting without setting a code. If you want to get more boost than that, you can either buy an electronic controller too or just wire in some resistors to keep it from setting a code.
If you raise to boost up to 10 or 12 psi it will probably be real noticable in power over stock. Scott;

TurboMaster.