My 6.2L rebuild update....

[arveetek]

Things are still heading forward...just rather slowly.

As you may recall, I had to order new .040" over pistons due to the machine shop's mistake. Before milling new pistons, Benny Avant suggested that I install the .030" over pistons and see how far they were recessed into the block, to make sure that all the other calculations were correct, and to make sure my block decks were straight and true, not tapered.

After installing all 8 pistons onto the rods, and assembling the pistons into the block, I measured each piston at TDC to see where the top of the piston was in relation to the top of the deck. On a factory engine, the piston will actually protrude from the block about .005". After reducing the piston by a total of .020" (relocationg wrist pin by .010" and milling another .010" off the top of the piston), the pistons should now be recessed in the block about .015". Benny said it's not unusual for the decks of these GM diesels to taper as much as .005" from end to end. So, I could end up with a piston in #1 that was .015" in, and #7 could be .010" or .020" in.

So, using a straight edge and feeler guages, I put each piston at TDC and came up with the following measurements:

#1 .014" #2 .014"
#3 .015" #4 .015"
#5 .016" #6 .015"
#7 .020" #8 .015"

As you can see, they were all really close, except for #7. Benny said that GM did not maintain very accurate rod lengths, and that swapping rods can usually fix minor problems like this. I pulled a rod from one of my spare engines, swapped it into #7, and then took another measurement. This time, with the new rod, it measured .016". That's close enough. Benny said .002 to .003" is as far apart as you want. That will keep the compression ratio equal on all cylinders.

Benny also said that .009" to .010" equals one compression point, so that means if the cylinders are way off, one cylinder could have 21:1 compression, and the one next to it could have 20:1 compression.

My engine should end up with around 19.75:1 compression.

So, with all these numbers reported to Benny, he declared it satisfactory and is going ahead and milling the new .040" over pistons to the original specs I gave him. Hopefully I will have the new pistons by the end of the week, so I can get the machine work finsihed up, and actually start assembling it for good.

I also received my rebuilt injection pump and injectors today, courtesy of Tim Wagner at accuratediesel.com. I ordered the 4911 upgrade and 6.5L turbo injectors. Can't wait to install them!

Casey

[Peter J. Bierman]

Glad to hear things start to work out.
But don't cheer to soon, you ain't done yet... ;)

Peter

[odee]

so what would be a good way of measuring the rods to check the length? Is offseting the bushing in the small end a good thing to do?

[bmiszuk]

Thanks for the update. I am curious to know if that sort of checking (piston height) is something that Benny regularly does or if it's an extra step that may or may not necessarily be done during a rebuild.

I've learned through the years that what some companies call a rebuild is little more than a new coat of black paint, whereas other companies are extremely careful in their efforts to build a good quality rebuilt engine. Telling them apart can be difficult. It's usually not an option to go to a rebuilder, examine their rebuild shop and try to determine if they know what they're talking about. This sort of information is not only interesting to learn, but seems to tell a little something about Benny's expertise and experience.

[arveetek]

Odee,

I believe that Benny said that they had made a jig or tool to measure the rods so that they could get a matched set. I know that I didn't have any way of measuring rods to within .001" of each other, so I just had to take a gamble and install each rod and measure after assembly. Takes a little longer, but it works.

Benny suggested boring and offsetting the wrist pin bushing, if needed, to get the piston at the right height. If you don't have any extra rods, then this would be about the only way to correct this kind of problem. Since I had 16 extra rods laying around, I was lucky and found one that was the right length!

Bmiszuk,

Yeah, I concur that Benny's experience really shines when discussing a topic like this. I was telling my brother about how I was measuring each piston's height, and he remarked at how much work I was going through. I said it wasn't totally necessary, and most people wouldn't bother, but I was trying to do the best job I could. I think this reflects the Avant's philosophy of things in general as well.

I'm pretty sure The Diesel Depot goes through this process for every engine they build to order.

Casey

[moondoggie]

Good Day!

Measuring rods: I've never done this, but couldn't a guy get some local machine shop to measure them in an optical comparator? We've got one where I work & it wouldn't have any problem at all measuring the distance between the crank & wrist pin holes. Of course, maybe the cost would be ridiculous, I don't know.

Blessings!

Brian Johnson, # 5044

[grape]

a rod length checker is not an exotic tool to have at an engine rebuilding facility.

[humding]

It nice to see The diesel Depot do things right. Its those extra little bits that make the world of difference. My customised 6.2 from The diesel depot is due to me in a few days times (after a few weeks at sea) and I'm looking forward to the experience, after 60000 troublesome miles with previous unit incorrectly built by a UK supplier. I know there is a few of the diesel depot units running in the UK and there is nothing but praise for them.

[84 C2B2]

I've been following this thread with a lot of interest since it explains one of my engine problems.

I own a M1008 CUCV which I have turned into a K30 Silverado. I've saved my nickels and dimes and I have rebuilt it ground up since last Sept. It is still a work in progress since it is still multi color.

Anyway, I really wanted a dependable engine so I scounged the EBAY sites, salvage yards, and DP advertisers. Practically new everything. I was burned on my first 6.2 rebuild 9 years ago but this time was different. These are my mistakes;

1. I bought the pistons, rings, gasket kit, and bearings from a previous DP advertiser but who also sells on EBAY. What a con. Advertised 19:1 .030 MAHLE pistons but what I received was decked .010 pistons without a refund. Since has stopped taking my calls.

2. I did take the whole running gear to a very reputable machine shop in Tacoma WA. They run piston to bore clearances at .0045 to .005 for 1-6 and .005 to .0055 for 7-8. I was fine with that as long as the rings fit properly. The block was decked, bored/honed and the running gear was completely balanced. I had purchased reconed rods from EBAY which simplified matters. Everything was perfect except for asking them to verify piston ring end gap. You pretty much know that at this point I was trying to paint a house, be the registrat for a soccer club with 1600 players, and work that normal income paying job. So, the rings are not in tolerance. In fact every moring I fire her up I get an occasional puff of blue which dissapates after GP cycling. I know in a few years I will overbore to .040 and use the other highly reputable DP advertiser for pistons, rings and advice.

The pluses are;

It is a completely brand new and balanced running machine. Engine, driveshafts and wheels are balanced. Zero vibration. It's actually pleasant to drive. Fuel economy ranged from 15-17 in the first 1000 miles but has since risen to 20.5 mpg during a recent trip from western WA to Walla Walla WA. Light load and running 75 average, 1 ton 4X4 raised 3 inches. Pretty good so far I believe.

Point of my story. On my third rebuild in however many years from now I will ask every question and gladly pay for the extra service to ensure perfection with something that is a bear to R/R.

Jerry

[nape]

What size tires and gear ratio/transmission are you running? I have one of those trucks and would really like to do something about the mileage. I am going to put some 35 inch rubber on soon and see if that helps. Thanks, Nape

[cass]

nape, ihave a m1008 and two m1009s. i live in muscle shoals al. whats your email i am dirttrucking@aol.com

[arveetek]

Saturday, I stripped the engine bay down as far as I could without stripping all the wiring out, and sanded and painted the firewall, fenders, inner wheel wells, and radiator cowl. I'm really surprised at how well the bay turned out, for no more effort than I put into it! It's going to look great when I'm all done.

Last night I sorted out some of the underhood wiring, cleaning it up with wire loom, etc. I also made a cover for some relays and circuit breakers so it doesn't look so bad.

Yesterday, the new pistons arrived from the Diesel Depot, so I loaded up the block and dropped everything off at the machine shop. I'm having them hone/bore the cylinders to fit the new .040" over pistons. I'm having them make the piston to bore clearances be .0035" for cylinders 1 through 6, and .0040" for 7 and 8.

The shop said they should have the block ready by tomorrow. Hopefully, if nothing else comes up, I can get the engine assembled this weekend, and then start on putting the motor back in the first of the week.

Wish me luck!

Casey

[Peter J. Bierman]

Good luck! :D

Peter

[mhagie]

Casey,Would you be interested in a 1982 4x4 gmc w/red 6.2?
It belongs to my neighbors kid and has a bad tranny TH400, He traded it sight unseen to a ford dealer and I am trying to cut a deal for it.
I might have it for $100, you interested?
If not thats ok as I can use it for a parts truck but I knew you would like a 4x4 and thought of you its a pretty simple job to change the sheet metal and since you already have the motor out its no better time if you want to change.............Merle

[ 05-05-2005, 04:53 PM: Message edited by: mhagie ]

[arveetek]

Merle,

I appreciate the offer, but I'm going to have to pass right now. I've pretty much wiped out my budget, both time and money wise, so I'd better pull the reigns back and stop while I can, ya know what I mean? :D

I do want to convert to 4x4, but I'd better wait until sometime down the road. When I do go to 4WD, I'll just swap a front axle under my current frame. It may be harder than doing a body swap, but that's the route I believe I'll take. It did cross my mind to do that now, since I ended up having the motor out for a couple of months, but I'm sure my wife would have put her foot down if I had brought the subject up! She's been really understanding as it is, considering I've just dropped 3 grand on a 24 year old truck!!

I did get my block back from the shop today, so I'm planning to start reassembly here in a little while. I've got this evening, all day tomorrow, a few hours on Sunday, and all day Monday to work on it. Maybe I can get this truck running in a few days!

Casey

[bmiszuk]

Casey, not meaning to poke at an already sore spot, but could you give some details concerning the cost of the rebuild? I wonder how it breaks down for parts, machine shop work, etc. Many times you hear "I spent $xx on my rebuild" but since many people are in different circumstances and will require different items replaced or decide to add different upgrades, it's hard to get a feel for how much $$$ is needed for a rebuild.

Thanks, hope it goes together well for you.

[arveetek]

bmiszuk,

I'll break down all the costs when I'm done. Basically, for 3 grand, I'll have bored the block to .040" over std., installed new lower-compression ceramic-coated pistons, replaced the timing chain with a gear drive set, installed a stud girdle kit, replaced all bearings, totally rebuilt the heads including sleeving the water passages between the valves, resurfaced the block deck and heads, rebuilt the injection pump and injectors, replaced oil pump and installed deep sump pan, replaced all lifters, replaced stock motor mounts with engergy suspension mounts, replaced oil cooler lines and oil cooler...

I'm sure there's more, but that's all I can think of at the moment. I'm getting tired! :D

Tonight, I was able to install the camshaft, crankshaft, and 4 pistons. I'm making good progress and all clearances are checking out perfectly!

Casey

[arveetek]

I'm sailing right along with my engine assembly! Everything is going together just fine, with no problems, and all clearances are within specs!

By the end of Saturday night, I had most of the longblock assembled, just short of the drivetrain:

http://community.webshots.com/photo/286393940/341897559wxPOIn

As of lunch time today, this is where I'm at:

http://community.webshots.com/photo/286393940/341986527HPXCnb

You can see the rest of my engine assembly pictures, including pics of the stud girdle kit and timing gears, starting on page three (http://community.webshots.com/album/286393940AoOzqp/2) of my engine rebuild album.

Casey

[spitfirenut]

Casey, if it's not too late could you post a closeup pic of your crossover pipe. I got a turbo kit out of a junkyard when I was in OKC but the crossover pipe had no intention of coming out and the visual reference would be useful. Glad to hear things are finally progressing.
Don

[arveetek]

Don,

I'll snap a pic of the crossover pipe before I reinstall the engine.

I got the injection lines and return lines installed yesterday afternoon. I spent some time cleaning up the injection lines so that they're nice and shiny, and I also spent some time installing new return lines with the little spring clips to hold them in place. I hate those little clips, but I hate dripping return lines even more. Perhaps I won't have to mess with them for quite some time now.

http://community.webshots.com/photo/286393940/342644394dZGVzj

I also got the water pump installed. I'm getting really close to getting the engine ready to install, but now I have to go back to work. I gotta make some money! I'll have to work on this project in the evenings again. I hope to start installing the engine by Thursday.

Casey

[arveetek]

Motor's installed! I got the engine set in place and bolted down tonight. Now I just have to start hooking up all the accessories, wiring, plumbing, etc.

Don,

I took a couple of pics of the crossover pipe for you.

Pic 1 (http://community.webshots.com/photo/286393940/344550369XrhYXZ)

Pic 2 (http://community.webshots.com/photo/344550674/344550674jXqWhY)

All,

I took some pics of the Engergy Suspension motor mounts I installed. You can see them and all the other pics on my engine rebuild page. (http://community.webshots.com/album/286393940AoOzqp/4)

Casey

[spitfirenut]

Thanks, Casey. That'll help. Now to get a runner in there instead of my broken one and I'll be ready to begin the turbo project. The pix will help me decide what I need for the crossover. I also found a source for the four hole flange I was missing. I'm waiting to hear back about a rebuild kit for my TO4B. I figure I might as well put bearings and seals in it before the install. I'd hate to have problems after all the trouble of installing it.
Don

[arveetek]

Add another one to the "Great Goofs" section of life! I somehow managed to bolt the flexplate on backwards! Of all the dumb mistakes....now I have to pull the transmission in order to swap the flexplate around.

I was wondering why the torque converter wasn't bolting up to the flexplate right....it was hitting the weight on the flexplate. Oh! Duh! The weight is supposed to be on the other side! Arrrrgh!

Oh well..... :rolleyes:

Casey

[aloharovers]

Originally posted by arveetek:

I was wondering why the torque converter wasn't bolting up to the flexplate right....it was hitting the weight on the flexplate.
Casey At least its not in the truck. My very first auto rebuild, had the tranny all bolted back in place, in the vehicle, and realized I forgot the TC :D

Nice build up.
Pete

[NH2112]

I replaced a leaking pump seal in my 700R4, had it all bolted up, and then noticed the seal retainer was sitting on the floor next to the jack under the oil pan :mad: I got really good at dropping that tranny, the last time I did it I had all the tools lined up on my bench in order of use, the air hose snaked under the front of the vehicle, and from the time I started turning wrenches to the time the tranny was sitting on the ground was about 40 minutes.

[aloharovers]

Originally posted by NH2112:
I got really good at dropping that tranny My nemesis was a 1970 TH-350 in a 2wd van.
Pulled it back out, attached the TC to the flex plate, put the tranny back in. Started it up, wouldn

[arveetek]

Aloha,

It was in the truck! That's why I was mad. I left the tranny installed in the truck when I pulled the engine.

It only took me 2 hours to R & R the transmission and flexplate. It's just more annoying than anything that I made a dumb mistake like that. Plus, that's a couple of hours that I lost getting the truck ready to run.

I've got all the underneath stuff hooked up, like oil cooler lines, tranny cooler lines, starter, TC to flexplate hooked up, motor mount bolts, etc. I also got the new oil cooler installed behind the grill. Now I'm ready to start installing all the accessories on the top side of the engine. Maybe, just maybe, I might be able to turn the key late tonight....

Casey

[mhagie]

Casey, Welcome to the real world of the do-it- yourselfer,you are a young man and I think its safe to say you will remember this incident for a mighty long time.
On the plus side you should feel good about yourself for your attention to detail,many of us would have taken for granted the clearances and not checked the ring end gap in our haste to assemble.
Its usually the obvious that give us the most grief.
Hope the crank clearances are right on.
Merle

[arveetek]

Originally posted by mhagie:
I think its safe to say you will remember this incident for a mighty long time. I must admit that this is not the first time I've learned a valuable lesson this way, especially regarding the transmission. When I first installed this 700 tranny 9 years ago, I discovered first hand that you must make absolute sure that the TC is seated all the way into the pump of the tranny. Apparently, when I was putting it in, the TC slipped forward a bit, coming out of the slots on the pump. When I bolted the tranny to the engine, it ended up crushing the front pump on the transmission, similar to what aloharovers talked about. I was able to repair the transmission with a new pump, but I learned an important lesson that day too!

All the crank clearances checked out perfectly. After the mistake with the machine shop was corrected, the engine went together like it was brand-new. I'm getting really anxious to get it running! I just found out my wife and I have plans tonight, so it'll be tomorrow before I can wrench on it again. Ahhhh! This is really stressing me out! So close, yet so far away.....

Okay, I need to calm down....I didn't realize that diesel fever had such exotic symptoms! :eek: :D

Casey

[84 Convert]

Don't feel too bad... it took me 4 or 5 evenings to finally get the tranny input shaft into the pilot bushing in the CC after re-ringing the engine!! Never had so much trouble before! Also, when I converted the K2500 to gas, my first flywheel was for marine purposes and had the ring gear on the wrong side of the flywheel! I had installed the entire drivetrain into the frame then moved the body over on top of it only to find I now had to pull the tranny and T/C and buy a new flywheel! (It still went together better than the last one)

Gregg

[arveetek]

Well, it runs! Sort of....

I got it started about 10:00 pm last night. Didn't have much trouble starting it. I left the glow plugs out and spun the engine over to help prime the oil and fuel systems. Wasn't very long before I had a lot of fuel mist coming out the glow plug holes. I installed the glow plugs, hit the glow switch, and it started up and died a few times before all the air got out of the system and it took off running.

The first problem I noticed was extremely low oil pressure, just barely noticeable on the guage. Maybe 5 psi, or a little less. I know it's not the guage, because I disconnected the turbo oil feed line and put it a bucket and spun the engine over, and just a little trickle came out. I get more oil when priming the pump with a drill. But I probably spin the pump faster with a drill than the engine does at cranking speed.

The second problem, which I believe is related to the first, is that exhaust is popping back through the intake manifold. I think that it's just simply lifters that haven't gotten pumped up yet due to the low oil pressure.

After calling and talking to dad about it, he asked me if all the oil galley plugs were installed, especially those on the back and front of the engine in the lifter valley next to the camshaft. I know for sure the rear two pipe plugs are installed, because I remember installing them. When I picked up the block from the machine shop, they pointed out that they had removed the plugs to clean the block and oil galleys.

However, I told my dad that I don't remember there being any oil galley plugs on the front of the block. I looked at one of my spare blocks, and sure enough, there are two freeze plugs in the front of the block next to the camshaft. I don't remember ever seeing those before! Confound it....I'm sure those two plugs are missing, causing all the oil to be dumped directly back into the oil pan!

I'm sure the machine shop didn't install those plugs, because I told them not to install the freeze plugs, I could do it myself. Trying to save a few dollars, ya know? Now it looks like I'll have to tear the front of the engine down just to get to them!

I hope that's all it is. Another stupid mistake. Oh well. Life goes on. I was pretty miffed last night, but I'm starting to get over it.

My wife and I are going out of town for our anniversary tomorrow, so it will be next week before I have a chance to tear into it.

One of these days! (I keep saying that...maybe it will come true?)

Casey

[moondoggie]

Good Day!

"Another stupid mistake." Yeah, you're right - I'd rather make the smart mistakes myself. :D Mistakes are just mistakes - it's how we learn stuff. I'll bet you haven't removed & disassembled an entire engine because the distributor drive was installed 180 degrees out? (VW engine - it could have easily been removed & reinstalled properly in the completely assembled engine when it was still in the car. :mad: )

By the way, I never said I did that, it was this guy I know... ;)

Blessings!

[john8662]

Casey, did you go back through your pictures to see if maybe you shot one of the front of the machined block that you could see if those plugs were missing? From some of your pictures it sure looks like they may be missing, can't really tell. I love to take pictures during something like this, especially when in doubt. Have a great anniversary, then come home and dive in again!

[arveetek]

It runs again! This time it's running right! :D

I tore down the front of the engine this morning, and sure enough, there were two, gaping holes in the front of the block where freeze plugs should have been! I don't know how in the world I could have missed that. :rolleyes:

Only took a couple of minutes to install two plugs, but it's taken several hours to R & R the front cover. I just put the engine back together enough to start it, I still need to install the fan, lower pulley, radiator, etc.

As soon as I cranked the engine, the oil pressure came up, and it fired and ran normally with no exhaust popping back through the intake. It doesn't take long to pump up the lifters, apparently.

Now I can finish buttoning everything else back up. A test drive is very, very near in the future! :D

Casey

[arveetek]

Success! :D

I had a successful test drive at 11:00 p.m. this evening! Engine seems to be running great. I think it had a slight stumble at first, but it seems to have gotten worked out. It sounded like a Power Stroke at startup, but quieted down a lot after the HPCA kicked off. I have the IP timing marks lined up on the pump and block...I'll have to go and get the timing checked later since I don't have the correct timing equipment. Even as noisy as it was cold, I think it could still be advanced some. I'll drive it a while and let break it in before I start advancing the timing too much.

Only a few minor problems surfaced on the test drive: a/c isn't working, no biggie there I'm sure; glow plug light isn't coming on, but the plugs are cycling; the tranny is stuck in TC lockup in all upper three gears, my switch doesn't seem to unlock the TC...must have a grounded wire somewhere; and the tranny lines are leaking at the cooler...I need to redo the fittings and add some thread sealer. All very, very minor bugs that can quickly be worked out, thankfully! :cool:

This project that started in the cold weather at the end of February is finally coming to a close in the hot weather of the end of May. Sheesh...I am sooooo glad to be getting to the end of this!

Thanks to all of you for your help and guidance....I could have never completed this project and done all of these upgrades without the Diesel Page and her members!

Casey

[john8662]

Casey,

Get the rig timed quickly. When I installed my gears, I lined up the timing marks, It was really loud at startup and a great pull to it when taking off, even warm. I had the timing checked I was at 8.5* BTDC! Right now it's sitting about 2mm retarded with my timing on the meter showing 6.5* BTDC.

Glad that it's running! I understand the long winded projects...

[DmaxMaverick]

TTT for Arveetek