WARNING: ATF as a Fuel Additive

[britannic]

I just got stopped by the CHP for a random fuel check to see if I was using heating diesel or farm fuel in my 6.2L.

Whilst being checked I asked the officer about using ATF; he told me that red ATF would look to them the same as dyed diesel and I would have a very tough time convincing them I wasn't using untaxed fuel.

He recommended any ATF that isn't red, but said that purple ATF can also fluoresce and set off their detector sometimes.

The officer said if I wanted to use red ATF, the best thing to do would be to add it after the tank in the filter or similar.

[CleviteKid]

In addition:

ATF is sort of out-of-favor as a fuel additive, anyway. It has a load of friction modifying additives in it that leave undesireable ash behind when burned in places you don't want it, like the tips of your fuel injector nozzles and the compression rings on your pistons. The best thing ATF does is to increase the viscosity of the fuel slightly (a boon to older worn pumps) and also increase the cetane number slightly just because of its higher density and longer molecular structure. But you can get the same effect from non-detergent motor oil.

Another option is to run TC-W3 (did I get that right?) 2-stroke oil in your fuel. 2-stroke oil is INTENDED to burn in combustion chambers without leaving bad deposits behind. I do that occasionally, and all the 2-stroke oil I have bought was dyed BLUE ! ! !

And further, there are some reputable companies that make diesel fuel additives that are designed and blended as diesel fuel additives. Maybe those would actually be best for our engines !!

Dr. Lee :cool:

[dieselbegreat]

britannic:
Exactly how did this stop take place? How were you greeted and what was said? Did you ask if your compliance was mandatory or voluntary? Just wondering.

[Craig M]

Was the CHP a commercial guy (with the pickup truck) or a regular officer. I have driven my old diesel trucks thru the commercial scales many times, but have never been checked for the red dye. Some officer must have had to much time on his hands. I keep hoping that with the state budget crissis the scales will be closed mose often, But last holliday they stayed open all 3 days.

[90LX]

I've heard of people switching from ATF to Marvel Mystery Oil as an additive. I've never used either of them, but I wonder if the MM oil would be better.

[britannic]

Originally posted by dieselbegreat:
britannic:
Exactly how did this stop take place? How were you greeted and what was said? Did you ask if your compliance was mandatory or voluntary? Just wondering. My wife had a better memory than I did (getting old I guess :D ):

A CHP officer was stopping vehicles about a 100yds before a 4 way stop, listening and then directing any diesels into a lay-by.

In the lay-by, we were stopped by 2 guys from the "State Board of Equalization" (sounds like George Orwell's 1984 :eek: ) and presented with a Notice of inspection with the Kalifornia State Seal.

The guy at my window basically said everything that was on the Notice of Inpection, asking if I would submit to a fuel tank inspection. If I refused, they were authorized to write a fine of $1000.00 per refusal. If dyed diesel was found, there would a fine of $10.00 per gallon to a maximum of $1000.00.

We were further cautioned that if illegal fuel was found, the IRS would be informed, who would also assess penalties in addition to the State Board of Equalization.

[dieselbegreat]

The form they handed you is probably the one located at:

http://www.boe.ca.gov/pdf/boe500ddf.pdf

Hmm. Well it says to me that something bad "may" happen to you if you either refuse or submit. That means maybe not! The form raises more questions about what it does NOT say (citing their actual authority and that it applies to YOU). Maybe it only applies to certain vehicles or there are other technical conditions which must be met. Who knows? I do know that if I had red stuff in my tank that I might AVOID having the tank inspected whatever the consequences and find a legal way to have the thing dismissed. A proper objection or request for their delegation of authority is neither refusal or submission, is it?

[britannic]

Originally posted by dieselbegreat:
The form they handed you is probably the one located at:

http://www.boe.ca.gov/pdf/boe500ddf.pdf

Hmm. Well it says to me that something bad "may" happen to you if you either refuse or submit. That means maybe not! The form raises more questions about what it does NOT say (citing their actual authority and that it applies to YOU). Maybe it only applies to certain vehicles or there are other technical conditions which must be met. Who knows? I do know that if I had red stuff in my tank that I might AVOID having the tank inspected whatever the consequences and find a legal way to have the thing dismissed. A proper objection or request for their delegation of authority is neither refusal or submission, is it? Here's what the form I have says - it's slightly different to one you found:

NOTICE OF INSPECTION

INSPECTION BY THE BOARD - pursuant to Section 60603 of the Revenue and Taxation Code, officers or employees of the state may ask and remove samples of diesel fuel. Under contract with the State Board of Equilization, employees of the Air Resources Board are taking samples on behalf of the Board. Any person that refuses to allow an inspection may be fined a penalty of one thousand dollards ($1000) for each refusal.

If you are found to have dyed diesel fuel in your fuel tanks while your vehicle is on the highway, you may be subject to a penalty of ten dollars ($10) per gallon or one thousand dollars ($1000), whichever is greater as provided by section 60105 of the Diesel Fuel Tax Law. This penalty is in addition to any tax or interest that might be due on the use of the fuel. The tax, penalty, and interest due have the effect of a duly executed lien which attaches to each vehicle at the time the vehicle is operated.

The Internal Revenue Service may assess additional penalties based upon information provided to it by the Board of Equalization.

If you have any questions, please contact us at the following address and telephone number.

State Board of Equalization
Fuel Taxes Division MIC:96
P.O. Box 942879
Sacramento, CA 94273-0096
(916) 322-9669

[dieselbegreat]

I think that was a recent change to the form. The statutes are supposedly at:

http://www.boetaxes.ca.gov/business/Vol3/Dft/dftl.pdf

I am not sure if implementing regulations are necessary for enforcement. It's a lot of reading and I don't have the time right now. One interesting thing is that the amount due may become a lien on the vehicle, subordinate to other existing liens of course.

[Craig M]

Well I do not know of anyone stopped down in Southern California for red dye inspection. All we have is Yuppies and very few farmers here, so they may skip us on this one. A few years ago they had a whole lot of diesel smoke inspection portable units going around the area. They would park at freeway on ramps or anywhere they wanted and perform smoke stack inspections on your diesel rigs. If you were over the limit on opacity you got a big fine and had to fix it or else!

[britannic]

Looks like they're stepping up the inspections: Ag Alert (http://www.cfbf.com/agalert/2003/08_06_03_a_aa.aspx)

[Sawz]

Around here years ago they used to go to the livestock auctions where the farmers (aka most likely suspects) congregate and check tanks there. Here I believe its a ten grand fine? seems like thats what I heard anyway

[palumbo27]

Another reason to stay out of California. When i drove OTR I hated that state with a passion...You would think with all the law enforement and penalties they could afford to put up mile markers and exit numbers on thier interstate highways. The only part of Cali. that I liked was Donner's Pass going east..We got pulled in at Banning and got a DOT inspection there..It was great to dissapoint the inspector when she found no violations on the rig, and no violations in my logbook..

[rjwest]

Retired and Travel, But not to California.

On the up side, When China takes over the state,
you won't notice any differance !

Regards From Florida , State with NO vehicle insp's..

" What's a CAT "

[dieselbegreat]

Just what I thought:

60601. Duty and authority of board. The board shall enforce this part and may prescribe, adopt, and enforce rules and regulations relating to the administration and enforcement of this part. The board may prescribe the extent to which any ruling or regulation shall be applied without retroactive effect.

For instance, where are the implementing rules and regulations enforcing part 60604 on "refusal?" There may be NONE, in which case there is no legal obligation. How can a government agent make a law circumventing the Fourth Amendment requirements for search and seizure? They cannot. I would request the applicable rules and regulations to be cited on the spot as it is incumbent upon me to ascertain the limits of an agent's authority, because without an implementing rule and regulation, citing just the statute means nothing. Pretty sneaky if you ask me.

Why don't those who travel through California write a letter asking for the rules and regs for each part and subsection, as they invite you to at the bottom of their Notices?

[NH2112]

Originally posted by dieselbegreat:
Just what I thought:

How can a government agent make a law circumventing the Fourth Amendment requirements for search and seizure? They cannot. I would request the applicable rules and regulations to be cited on the spot as it is incumbent upon me to ascertain the limits of an agent's authority, because without an implementing rule and regulation, citing just the statute means nothing. Pretty sneaky if you ask me.
Ask anyone who's lost their license for refusing to submit to a breathalyzer test that obviously violates your right to privacy as guaranteed by the 4th amendment to the US Constitution. The state apparently believes that in this case might does indeed make right. It's amazing how the thought of facing jail time or death as a result of exercising the rights that are supposed to be protected by the gov't can turn we unruly citizens into properly subservient subjects. :mad:

[dieselbegreat]

Ask anyone who's lost their license for refusing to submit to a breathalyzer test that obviously violates your right to privacy as guaranteed by the 4th amendment to the US Constitution. Well, I haven't checked that situation like the one at hand, but let's think about that...I feel your indignation, believe me, however, I must sincerely point out that a license is controlled by the grantor of the license. It's clear that the loss of the driving privilege and other liability stems from the license itself -- that's why licenses are suspended over and over but never cancelled. I would say that it's your capacity as a "free" American to waive certain rights in exchange for privilege (private law, law between the parties) by agreement which is higher law than the Constitution. (Just as treaties are.) The idea is, you can't claim a right when relying on a privilege. Liability under the license is one source of the problem, but that's getting into a whole other discussion. I believe that the government is usually legally correct in the way laws are written, albeit shrewdly crafted, but that employees officers and agents impose their policy by legal trickery, circumlocution, irregularity and fostering the people's lack of true knowledge, for our good or ill. Everyone, please forgive me if I've overstepped the topic here. smile.gif

BTW, one other thing I found in the definitions:

60031.

[Cabasa]

I got a question on the additive being used to lube the pump. So I can just get a bottle of two stroke oil and dump it into my tank without any worries? Makes sense being it is used to lube anyways. How much should I use for a 40 gallon tank? My truck is down because of pump failure and I would like to keep the new one lubed.