Another coolant leak/head gasket/no its a cracked block [Archive]

bbattrell

08-17-2002, 07:28

OK I am geeting worried. I lost about 1/2 gallon of coolant in the last 1000 miles, and I seem to have some of the same problems as Maveric. It is leeking out of the reservor overflow hose. I took it into the dealer last week, and they pressure tested the system. They said the problem was my rad cap was not holding pressure, and replaced it.
Yesterday on the way home from work my low coolant light came on. I noticed there is bubbles in the reservor, and it is leeking out the hose again.
I got my results from my oil analysis a couple of weeks ago. It said no corrective action required, so I didn't think to much about it, but now I am concerned. I don't have the high cooper like Maveric, but let me know what you think. is the boron, magnesium, and calcium indicating coolant? What about fuel? I have already had 2 injector's replaced.
62,400 miles on the motor 4,500 miles on the oil
Oil Brand Chev Delo 15w-40w
GLY COL NEG
% WATER .05
% FUEL 1.0
VISCOSITY 100C 13.1
SOOT 1.0
% OXD 7.8
% NOX 2.9
Fe 10 Cr 0
Pb 1
Cu 3
Sn 1
Boron 35
Na 1
Magnesium 363
Calcium 1688
Ba 0
Phosphorus 856
Zinc 1042
Mo 0
Ti 0
V 0
Cd 0

]

[ 08-21-2002: Message edited by: bbattrell ]

mackin

08-17-2002, 11:00

bbattrell ,

Man that suxs .......Mav says he isn't losing coolant since the H gasket has been replaced.....You are losing a lot at Half a gallon in 1K.....No visible leaks I gather? Just blowing out the overflow tube while your driving I guess.....Hope you get it straightened out ......Thank goodness for warranties....I'm thinking of extending mine.....

If it's true (urban legend) things come in three's, I'm parking mine till the third one pops up.......

MAC

[ 08-17-2002: Message edited by: mackin ]

bbattrell

08-17-2002, 15:03

Yea Mac it sux's. I didn't want to post on this untill I find out whats wrong, but after seeing Mav oil analasis I seen some similarities with the boron, magnesium, and calcium, and got nervous. I hope somone with more knoledge then me can let me know if these are normal numbers for Delo 400. I know boron, and calcium may indicate coolant or water. This was my first oil analaysis, and wanted somthing to compare to. I switched to Amsoil bumper to bumper a few weeks ago, and installed the dual remote oil filter's with series 3000 5W-30. Anyway's I will keep yall posted with the outcome.
Bill

Maverick

08-17-2002, 21:12

Sounds like you and me have an identical problem now that my external leaks have been fixed. I am only loosing coolant out the overflow now also. I had the cap, both thermostats, and the right head gasket replaced and I am still blowing it out the hose. If you or your dealer figure this out, email me personally marked urgent. I need this issue resolved. I can't have anymore down time.

Bubbles in the tank eh? I had bubbles one time. It bubbled for about 1 min then stopped. Bubbles would indicate a head gasket initially.

[ 08-17-2002: Message edited by: Maverick ]

bbattrell

08-17-2002, 21:29

It seems strange it didn't bubble before they repaced the cap. I don't know maybe it was releiving the presure, or things are getting worse.

bbattrell

08-19-2002, 20:51

Yep the service writter say its the head gasket. I am going down tomorrow after work, and talk to the machanic and see what was the cause. I'll get some picture's. Hopfully he will not already be assembling it. The service writter say's they are supose to get the head gasket tomorrow.

mattb5150

08-19-2002, 21:20

Bill,

Sorry to hear about your truck. Who's your dealer Capitol GMC? Have you been satisfied with previous service I'm curious cause I need to find someplace besides Gilroy GMC.

Matt B.

Maxxheadroom

08-19-2002, 21:35

Matt
You may want to consider the Duramax mechanic over in Salinas (Richardson Chev), I have had numerous discussions with him on this truck...to look at him you would say no way is he a diesel enthusiast but he is fully into it...he reads all the TSB's, systems manuals etc then we compare notes on problems we've heard about...couldn't hurt, his name is Jesus Arquetta :D

bbattrell

08-19-2002, 22:00

Its at capitol now. They are great compared to Stevens creek. I have only used Capitol a couple of times, but they are quick service. they don't take appointments. They have 7 Durmaxes on the lot right now, but no 03 3500's I would like to see one.

More Power

08-19-2002, 22:43

Personally, I would consider an injector cup seal as the cause of bubbles in the coolant before suspecting a head gasket.

Just curious, is/was your engine stock or are/were you running a module?

MP

Maverick

08-19-2002, 22:59

Believe me man, I feel your pain. :mad: Its really frigging frustrating isn't it.

Is your leak internal and getting burned or going into your oil or both? Is your surge tank getting built up with lots of pressure? I am beginning to wonder it it was a head gasket on my truck because its still doing the samething after the change minus the little leak in the front.

Ask your mechanic what the symtoms of a injector cup seal leaking is. My mechanic said it would have a bad misfire at idle. Mine does not. Is mine still a head gasket you think? Don't know. Tell you what, I am sick of going back for repeat service calls that should have been diagnosed right and fixed correctly the first time. I understand the Dmax is a new engine but that no excuse in my book. Is everyone else with me here or am I alone. I am sick of cutting the dealer a bunch of slack.

Where is your leak if it is external?

01_Duramax_Dually

08-19-2002, 23:24

BBattrell,
Sorry I did not see your post. Anytime you see bubbles or hear bubbling in your coolant system with or without the cap you have a head gasket issue. I leak down my motors alot and check for that specifically especially when I boost my motor to 30 pounds when racing.

Now on the other hand,"Using" coolant can be a different problem as you may have a slow leak or a cracked head at the exhaust side that allows the coolant to be burned and never detected in the oil other than in trace amounts.

I know this post is late as it has been determined a Head Gasket. Ask them for the head gasket, I would like to see it. The failure could be a variety of reasons. I have questioned whether or not the heads should be re-torqued just out of simple principle that the block or the head are not O-ringed and if you load them heavy and run hard with alot of boost the head could become (I'll use the term) "loose" and then a leak developes. Most head gasket technology nowadays do not require re-torque but that does not mean you will not have random field failures due to this phenomenon. Anytime you increase cylinder pressure, add some heat, things Move around...they all do.

As for dealers. I have had excellent results with Carl Chevrolet on Capitol expressway for servicing. I would suspect they can service GMC and Chevrolet since the motors are the same.

Hope you are up and running soon.

More Power

08-19-2002, 23:53

The high-temperature high-pressure injector cup seal, where the cup passes through the head into the combustion chamber, doesn't have to leak much at all to allow a tiny amount of combustion pressure to leak past and into the cooling system.

These leaks will not likely cause a miss or any other detectable engine running problem, but the pressure will build quickly in the cooling system.

Stock or modified engines? Just curious...

MP

mackin

08-20-2002, 04:50

More Power,

I'm all most 100% positive bbattrell is stock.........He has also had some injector problems early on if I remember.....Might of been a Bosch ECU......I'll be glad once the problem is discovered and a fix is found now one likes to play the guessing game......Especially when it's their truck...... Wonder if this is an early 01 issue like the injector problems that plagued some D-max'es? Perhaps a casting milling problem and they may have to switch to the thicker head gasket as mentioned some have, a in spec revaluation may be in order??????.......Just a thought.....

MAC

[ 08-20-2002: Message edited by: mackin ]

01_Duramax_Dually

08-20-2002, 07:46

Hey Mac,
Can you define "Early '01". I am curious. Was Mav's and BBattrell trucks built around same time frame. If I remember right in speaking with BBattrell, he has about the same miles as Mav and they both work them pretty hard. Last time BBattrell and I spoke, he was a 100% stock truck.

Be interesting to compare build dates, miles and drivers use(towing alot, heavy loads..etc)

More Power.... I agree with you on the injector cup seal. Spoke with my friend who services these and it is very possible at worst it is another possibility.. I was hoping BBattrell would be able to keep the head gasket so I could look at it. Head Gaskets tell a HUGE story....as do Main Caps.

Carry On... :D

hoot

08-20-2002, 08:06

I would EXPECT GM top brass to be intimately involved in the first head/headgasket failures to ensure the are diagnosed correctly and addressed promptly.

FrozenAKJoe

08-20-2002, 09:17

Maverick - what dealer have you been going to? Tony's? If so, what location? My previous vehicle was a '94 S-10 and had pretty good luck with them. I cringe at the thought of having to take my D/A to AK Sales & Service (I'll drive the extra distance in order to take it to Tony's).

Maverick

08-20-2002, 12:02

I go to Tony's in Anchorage. Greg is the Dmax mechanic there and is the most knowledgeable I have found in Alaska of any dealer statewide.

Greg called me and said he talked to GM and that they have been having a cracked head problem that they have been keeping a hush, hush lid on pretty good. They want to check my truck for coolant in the cylinders and if found, pull that head(s) and have them tested for cracks. He was going to check on avaliability of new heads today also. After my truck idles for awhile I do have a noticable haze in the exhaust gas. My truck goes back Wed. night.

mackin

08-20-2002, 14:28

01_Duramax_Dually,

I don't know what their build dates are .....I was referring and asking myself if there is a coincidence......There was a problem with SOME early 01 that had injector failure problems.....I think early as in the very beginning run some pre 01 build dates.....Corrections were continuous as mine being a 05/01 build date which is very late, June being cut off......I've had more computer updates and in addition my airbox is a 01 fender side draw snorkel less......In other words mine is all most a 02 in production changes, so to speak......So what are there build dates? I think Bill only has 20k or so less miles then Mav does........
I wonder what the number is being hushed of cracked heads.....Or the validity of it.....Why would they tell a mechanic?????? Just tell him to remove heads and send to factory for evaluation.....Keep it in the closet.....No offense to the mechanic but he is low on the food chain, and needs no explanation as to why......Hope I haven't been duped.......Waiting patiently for answers, for now.....

MAC

bbattrell

08-20-2002, 19:06

I got the bad news the #3 cylinder is cracked on the outside. It looks like the headgasket had been leaking for a while between 3, and 4. It also had a leak in the front cylinder. I will be finding out tomorrow how long it is going to take to get a new engine. http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/view?p=999&gid=1094153&uid=629170&members=1

bbattrell

08-20-2002, 19:26

O yea my truck had a delivery date in march 01. I bought the truck 3 months old. It was used for 20,000 miles pulling 8,000 lb plus trailor, and 10,000 miles with a 4000 lb slidin camper. The rest were mostly empty. I never pushed it hard with a load climbing mountain's.
I had been adding a little radiator fluid for a while. I didn't think to much about untill Maverick started posting about his problems. After all no one was having head problems, and my temp was usually around 180-200.

[ 08-20-2002: Message edited by: bbattrell ]

mackin

08-20-2002, 19:58

bbattrell ,

Well at least you found out even although it surely is bad news.....I'm sure Mav will be getting one to just the matter of finding out for what reason......Funny how the head has been the issue and now more then likely a head gasket failure has caused the block to crack......Wonder if it was do to the introduction of coolant into the cylinder ......Do you know if you will get an entire core heads and all? Or will they send your heads out for evaluation and reinstall? I was wondering if you would get the NEWER engine with the changes in 02.....Well hope this is the last of it .... The percentage is still small compared to units in service not that this makes you think differently about your curcumstance.... Good luck, hope your repair goes smooth without incident....

MAC

bbattrell

08-20-2002, 20:29

Mac I think GM will want it all for evaluation. Well I am hoping. I dont want anything on there that may fail again. As far as numbers go I wouldn't hesitate to buy another one tomorrow if I was looking for another diesel truck. I think this engine is the exception not the rule. As you know they have replaced the Bosh ECU, and 2 injector's last November, and now this.

Paintdude

08-20-2002, 20:50

A new engine and all should be well...I would rather have a new engine than anything repaired anyway.

It looks like liquid got into the cylinder and on compression cracked the block..17 to 1 would do that along with the gear reduction starter.The stress had to go someplace..I am suprised the head wasn`t cracked, also...

Good Luck and thanks for the pics..

Maverick

08-20-2002, 22:57

My truck was bought 3/23/01. I would guess it was built in Feb. I'll print this thread off and give to my mechanic. Something else to look for.

Nice pics also. I printed those off too.

Glad yours if figured out. How long before the new engine is in? What is the mileage on your truck to date?

[ 08-20-2002: Message edited by: Maverick ]

bbattrell

08-21-2002, 06:43

Maverick it souds like we have coose to the same build dates. I dont know yet how long it will be.
It was my #3 injector that went out also, seems a little odd # 3 has been the problem.

01_Duramax_Dually

08-21-2002, 08:52

MAC,
Mine is also a build date of 5/01. But I am seeing that Mav's and BBattrell are very close in build dates(appears tobe 2/01-3/01). Wonder if this could be a lot failure. Be interesting to see if GM has the capability to check engine run(lot)traceability. So we are the 5/01 guys. I do not know about you, But I work my truck very very hard. I think out of the 34K miles I have on it I have had a 10Klbs strapped to it for 28K of them... :D
I am not concerned as of yet but it would be good to see what Revision we are in regards to the motor and what some of the revisions were from the pilot run to various lots of manufacturing(i.e. different tq settings, different head gaskets, different tq sequence, different material lot and so on.

As bbattrell said, he is the exception and not the rule. Sample size is small. I called my friend at Carl Chevrolet and he cannot recollect any trucks coming in for head gaskets, he said still getting a few for the leaky injector pump...

Carry On... :D

SoCalDMAX

08-21-2002, 12:31

Excellent posts and pictures! I'm glad they got it diagnosed, but very sorry it happened to you. I noticed how the crack went from the interior of the cylinder to the outside of the block, the furthest distance and not to the closest cavity. That would make me think the crack followed an existing flaw in the block, since the crack should follow the path of least resistance and find the shortest path.

So you're getting a whole new engine? That's great, a lot better than how some other mfrs have been treating their customers.

Regards, Steve

Joe Duffiney

08-21-2002, 14:47

I hate posts like these !!!! I want to here more 1/4 mile times !!!! Just kidding guys. Sorry to here about your rides Maverick and bbattrell. I have a 5/01 build date also I hope we have the good ones Mack & 01_Duramax_Dually ! The boys at those other 2 web sites would have a ball with these stories. I am glad gm is puttin in a new engine and not trying to repair it.

bbattrell

08-21-2002, 19:03

The service Manager says they may get the motor tomorrow. That would be extremly fast service to me. He didn't say where it was shippig from, but the last dealer took 4 days each time to receive my injector's from Los Angeles. I was kind of figuring next week at the earlyest.

bbattrell

08-21-2002, 21:49

I just want to correct my earlyer post. After checking it was #2, and #4 injectors that were replaced back in Nov.

mattb5150

08-21-2002, 23:25

Thanks guys for the dealer recommendations here in Silicon Valley but I've got a GMC and I believe that Chevy dealers aren't allowed to do warranty work on GMC's and vice versa. Taking mine back to Gilroy GMC tommorrow morning so the shop foreman can drive the truck and feel the steering rattle for himself. Why don't these guys take my word for it?

Matt B.

Amianthus

08-22-2002, 05:57

Joe D,
I'm not gonna say nuttin'.

GrayMax

08-22-2002, 07:01

Amianthus,

I'll say this: I'm sweating bullets! Not sure I can wait for a 3G '04. I don't want a 3G '03, not going to be a test owner again. However, if I wait any longer, more problems like the one discribed here may appear and my trucks value sinks to rock bottom. Heck, I may not even be able to give it away. I have been giving some serious thought to the other manufactures and taking advantage of some great incentives out there right now. What to do, what to do?

bbattrell

08-22-2002, 10:04

Graymax
I wouldn't worry about the value of your truck going down because of a few engines like mine. I think you will probably see more like Brokers then like this one.

SoCalDMAX

08-22-2002, 10:55

GrayMax,

Not surprisingly, quotes from forums like this end up in a lot of unlikely places. They get twisted, misquoted and used for another poster's purposes, however different than your own.

Statements like yours above do more to spread Fear Uncertainty and Doubt (FUD) among readers who have no personal experience with the Dmax. With a little editing, it could look like the sky is falling. Believe me, it's gonna end up as fodder on at least 3 other sites.

For every blown head gasket or cracked block, there are thousands of modified Dmaxes quietly purring away, some hauling heavy loads. People can't (or wont) remember exactly what was said or happened in this thread, just some vague reference to somebody getting worried and wanting to dump their Dmax. It doesn't matter that the dealers involved have done a commendable job of tracking down and repairing the problem, or that GM is supplying a brand new engine. Go down to any Ford dealer and ask them about the cackle problem on the PSD. Not only will you not get anything done about it, you'll get total denial.

Personally, I think I have far better odds of getting on a plane with a Muslim terrorist or getting a date with Ali Landry with my wife's permission, vs. blowing a head gasket on the Dmax. (In either of the first 2 cases, some serious wrestling is gonna take place. ;) )

Nobody builds (or can build) thousands of the perfect vehicle, it's physically and statistically impossible. The best one can hope for is a competently engineered vehicle, built by people who care about quality and serviced by an open minded organization staffed with good techs able to troubleshoot and equipped with good tools. I think we have that combo here. GM, Duramax and Allison do seem to listen, as evidenced by rapid TSBs, callbacks, reflashes, etc. I think GM is doing a great job of using computers to rapidly disseminate info to their techs, lessons learned, tips, tricks, etc.

Right now, there are used Dmaxes selling on Ebay for more than I paid for mine NEW. The resale value is the last thing on my mind. But just keep wondering out loud if your Dmax is gonna be worthless, and it may become a self-fulfilling prophecy... I honestly am not angry, I don't know you personally and my mental image is that you're a wonderful person. I'm not aware of any previous issues you may have had with your truck (lopey idle? or shift busyness?), I'm just a little surprised at your uneasiness with your truck. Fill me in on any previous problems you had, if any.

Steve, worried that his truck is not using a drop of oil, doesn't lope and only ticks for 300mi after an oil change, even though he beats the tar out of it... :D

More Power

08-22-2002, 11:02

Maverick,

I have just received a communication from GM Powertrain concerning what your dealer mechanic said about cracked cylinder heads. Here is their response.

MP
---------------------

"Jim,

I've talked with our engineering and quality people on the attached message. We are not aware of any problems in the field concerning cracking
cylinder heads. We track warranty data monthly and look for any trends that could key us off on a problem and there has been no indication of
cracked heads being a problem. Let me know if there is anything I can do to help stop these rumors. Thanks!

Bill"

----------------------

PS - If "Tony's" is the name of a GM franchised dealership, and if "Greg" is their Dmax mechanic, they'll likely be hearing from GM.

[ 08-22-2002: Message edited by: More Power ]

hoot

08-22-2002, 11:14

More Power,

Thanks!

Guess I can put those spare heads back in the garage. They've gotten pretty beaten up back there the way I drive ;)

GMC-2002-Dmax

08-22-2002, 13:48

To All,

I am in agreement with those that say this incident is an isolated problem and not a trend starting. I would think that the problem is and will be repaired to Mavericks satisfaction. I am however interested in what was changed from the test engine to the '01 production engine. I would also like to know what is different or improved in the '02.

Anyone know?????

GMC ;)

01_Duramax_Dually

08-22-2002, 14:15

Ahhh Yes. I agree with SoCalDMAX and others posting,
This is nothing to sweat over. A couple of failures in the field. Bound to happen to all the Big 3.

I do not frequent other pages but I can only imagine the hype and garbage being embellished...Must be a sight to see.

Unfortunately for the "OTHER" guys, GM has stolen the Diesel Truck market back with a GREAT truck. We all have to remember that the sample size on this page is small and could go either way. I like reading about this stuff and like the heads up and things to look for, But as of this date, My truck still hauls A$$ and lots of weight, gets great mileage and is VERY quiet.
Until All the engines have failed for one particular reason I disregard the snide comments and the "I told you so people" as they offer nothing in facts.

Carry On and STOMP ON IT... :D

FirstDiesel

08-22-2002, 16:38

SoCalDMAX

What is a cackle on the PSD???

SoCalDMAX

08-22-2002, 17:33

It's a very long discussion on the F-D.com site, but in a nutshell:

International designed the engine and a fuel system which included a reservoir (accumulator) and return lines. It's avail. like this on certain vehicles. As installed in the PSD, the fuel system has no return lines or accumulator. This results in high pressure shock waves, harmonics and poor fuel delivery to #8 cylinder (partially due #6 and #8 cyls. firing in close succession.) This causes bad injector timing, a "cackling" noise and a loss of power from 1400-1800rpm, the rpm range that a diesel needs to be pulling strong. Dyno runs have shown the engine produces ~140hp throughout this range rather than ramping up from 140 to 185hp.

Ford's answer is to install a modified injector (Long Lead or LL) in #8 cylinder and it supposedly draws more fuel from the rail and fires the right quantity. A few Ford PSD owners have discovered that it merely hides the symptoms and does not cure the problem. The cylinder pressures are still considerably higher (at least 25%) than the others, which strains everything internally and drastically increases wear. The theory is that some PSDs have audible cackle, but all have it and some badly enough that severe damage to #8 cylinder has occurred.

Another issue they're having is the use of quick disconnect fittings on the fuel system. They're designed for pressurized use, not vacuum as found on a diesel. The O-rings leak air into the fuel system. A number of them have discovered excessive air bubbles in their fuel systems and have modified their systems to eliminate this problem. This causes serious problems with a very high pressure diesel fuel system, since timing is critical for power, cylinder pressures and fuel economy. Air in the fuel compresses and does not allow the injectors to fire the proper amount of fuel at the right time. Some have reported much smoother running engines and fuel mileage increases (from ~13-14mpg pre-modification to ~18-19mpg post-mod) as well as more power.

Add to that tranny problems, coolant cavitation causing pitting in the cylinder walls, powdered metal rods, higher noise levels, and normal component defect rates, and I'm pretty sure I bought the right truck for my tastes. ;)

Regards, Steve

GrayMax

08-22-2002, 17:36

More Power,

almost two years ago someone posted the idea of a troubleshooting forum - it's still a good idea, especially now that there is enough documented problems. Why not develop one?

SOCal,

Statements like mine are a legitimate concern for me and perhaps others who may be in the process of buying a new truck. I do not believe anyone wants to hear bad news, however it is a fact of life. Imagine for a moment the media only reporting the positives and not the negatives, on presidential candidates, would that really help us in determining which candidate to vote for? I think not. I do not worry if information like this ends up as fodder on other sites, why should I? why should you? After all, it's only a truck, a machine made by a manufacture that you owe absolutely nothing to (or do you?). On the contrary, they owe you, myself and everyone else a product worthy of the price we pay. If you feel satisfied with what you have for the price you paid, then rest easy and enjoy. Regarding Ford's denial on the cackle issue, I never checked into it. I have the tick in my DMAX, GM provided an explanation for it and another member shared GM's response with us by posting it on this site. In a nutshell, they say it's normal. Many people rationalize this explanation by GM. As far as I'm concerned, no sale, call me a skeptic. Is GM doing a good job trying to correct the bug/problems that occur? sure they are, in most cases. It's a new concept and most definately a learning process for all involved. The real question here is: Did you buy the best overall product? I have owned my DMAX since December 2000, so I think I'm qualified to provide constructive feedback on it, which I have, both positive and negative. I have had my share of problems - all of which were corrected except the tick. When I hear from other owners about cracked blocks, heads and coolant leaks, you bet I'm sweating bullets and I'm deeply concerned, hoping that it's not a sign of things to come. Again, you can rationalize this as an isolated incident but I will continue to be a skeptic. Did you happen to read the post on this site about the high percentage of Allison failures in the fleet of trucks If not, check it out - VERY ALARMING! Once again, some may say this is an isolated incident on the fleet of trucks, not me, I remain a skeptic. Keep in mind, most of those DMAX equipped trucks on e-bay never reach the reserve price. Just because NADA or KBB says your truck is worth "X" amount of dollars, doesn't necessarily mean you're going to get that much for it. If you're very patient and leave it on the market, you may find that one person willing to give you what the book quotes. On the other hand, if these heads, blocks, coolant leaks, transmission failures continue, stand by to take a loss on the very trucks you believe so much in.

BTW: You mentioned the broker truck with 400,000 plus miles. Here is my question: Pictures of trucks, guage installs, exhaust, etc. can be provided on this site, how come a picture of the odometer on the broker truck be provided?

Not to awful long ago someone on the TDR was bragging about a million mile Dodge. Being a skeptic as you already know, I needed proof - they gave it to me in writing and in pictures - I'm a believer now ;)

[ 08-22-2002: Message edited by: GrayMax ]

More Power

08-22-2002, 18:33

GrayMax,

Rest assured that when sufficient numbers of Duramax owners need indepth troubleshooting and problem resolution, The Diesel Page will have it. As it stands now, nearly all of these engines are still under warranty. The focus now, should be on helping owners understand the engine and engine control systems, so they are better equipped to identify any problem that might develop, which could help their dealer solve it for them.

MP

SoCalDMAX

08-22-2002, 19:01

GrayMax,

I agree that for this forum to do any of us any good, we must try to get the whole story, both good and bad. I just feel that considering the number of Dmaxes out there, some approaching 100k mi or more, if there was a design flaw it would have come up in testing or we would have seen a lot of these problems by now. To start sweating bullets after hearing of 1 confirmed cracked block and 1 confirmed leaking head gasket just seems a little premature. Wouldn't you agree that if Dmax has built 250,000 units (2.5 yrs at 100k/yr)and so far only 1 block has cracked, that's a failure rate of .0004%. That may be a new world record (low) for a new engine intro!

I have no reason to doubt anyone's sincerity, whether it's positive or negative info. If you feel uneasy about the reliability of your truck, by all means, sell it. Reliability is a very important trait. Of the 6 vehicles I own (1 MB, 1 BMW, 1 Toyota diesel, 1 Ford, 1 Nissan, and the Dmax) I honestly have to tell you, I feel the Dmax is the most reliable. (This wasn't meant to scare you! ;) )

I don't owe anything to GM, like you said, they owe us a reliable vehicle worthy of the price we paid. Based on the posts I've read at other sites, IMHO, GM has a much more customer oriented, "let's find it and fix it" attitude than the other brands, with the exception of a few dealerships. Assuming the same level of quality from each mfr, I'd prefer to buy the brand that's got the best customer service.

I can understand skepticism. For the price that trucks cost these days, it's a healthy attitude. I do feel that questioning the resale value of one's vehicle after reading about 1 leaking gasket and 1 cracked block is a little... alarmist. Of the tranny failures you mention, most of them look like assembly error to me. I don't recall hearing of a single Allison that had a hard failure (gear breakage, clutch breakage, input shaft shatter, etc). I never heard what was wrong with Brokers' tranny at 100k mi, but all of the others were torque converter bolts, gasket leaks, etc.

Speaking of Broker, my understanding is he's a very busy guy. Why would one insist on seeing a picture of his odo? If a person would go to the trouble of making up one of the longest running lies (complete with periodic updates and explanation of maint. schedules) I'm aware of, it would be very easy to just Photoshop whatever mileage you'd like to see.

As for Ebay prices, yes some Dmaxes have gone unsold, but a LOT of them have sold for more than I paid. The entire used market is taking a dump. By contrast, the Dmax is holding value better than the luxury cars, IMHO. If you bought a BMW 750iL in '00 for $100,000 (plus tax & lic), you'd be hard pressed to get $35,000 now. And they have an excellent reputation for being "The Ultimate Driving Machine" and very good reliability. Now THAT's more than I can afford to lose!

I'm not arguing with you, I'm just trying to understand where you're coming from. It looks like we've got a classic case of "the glass is half full vs the glass is half empty" going on here. ;)

Regards, Steve

Idle_Chatter

08-22-2002, 19:29

I rarely wish to get into any stone-throwing, but I don't recall seeing many posts from Graymax since the long Trussman issue and he was pretty negative then, too. As a "Skeptic" he should therefore understand my suspicion of some ongoing Trollism. How about some digital photos of the Graymax Dmax while we're asking for photoproofs?

hoot

08-22-2002, 20:57

I wonder if.......

A leaking injector could load up a cylinder? Could this be the real culprit that caused the failure?

In other words, the blown gasket/cracked block is a result of cylinder over pressure created by a load of fuel.

If so, at least it's not an inherent design problem with the engine itself. Reading about a number of leaky injector events, I was wondering. I read somewhere that these injectors can leak continously if something in the injector fails. Maybe there needs to be some sort of safety curcuit built into these things. I believe the PSD injectors will not leak like these can because of it's design.

I think we honestly all opened our eyes when we read of these failures. I would love to know a definitive cause.

[ 08-22-2002: Message edited by: hoot ]

Paintdude

08-22-2002, 21:19

Would contamination keep a injector open..Like coolant from a leaking head gasket..All resulting in the situation here? this would be my best guess..All related to a bad head gasket or mating surfaces......

I have many of the f*rd and d*dge guys give me a rough time about the aluminum heads on our engines..by saying "Mine is all iron."

[ 08-22-2002: Message edited by: Paintdude ]

SoCalDMAX

08-22-2002, 22:23

Paintdude,

Tell 'em, "Yup, anchors ARE all iron!"

I haven't seen it myself, but I've heard mention of a Ford commercial where they drop a truck out of an icebreaker. I guess one could start some fun calling it an anchor on another site... ;)

Regards, Steve

[ 08-22-2002: Message edited by: SoCalDMAX ]

01_Duramax_Dually

08-22-2002, 22:48

Holy Cow,
This thread has grown into some stone throwing in our own house...

You know I had to ask myself...Why should any of us care either way. You bought a truck that you like, you felt was the best for your application.
Trying not to get caught up in the hype and all the nay sayers...it is all nothing but a game to get a reaction., Sounds like they would like us to believe that the world is caving in and that all the motors are going to Explode.... it is silly.

Look, All of these trucks have had problems. The list for all of them is L O N G...so far the DMAX has had some failures...It is OK. Their will be more. Just be happy that GM is addressing them and want to improve on the design. It does not make best economical sense to put out a truck and want it to fail...

So just never mind me..I'll just go sit over here and enjoy my truck and continue to try and catch Broker....LOL... :D

GrayMax

08-23-2002, 07:49

Took these just for you Idle. Also took the picture of my wife's ZR2 as well just to show you I'm not "trolling" at this site bashing Chevy's. I only wish my DMAX was as reliable as my wife's '97 ZR2 which has never been in the shop for any repairs. Never any warranty work needed. Now that is what I call "typical chevy reliability." Sorry, I cannot say the same for the DMAX.

http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/view?p=999&gid=1101767&uid=671798&members=1

01_Duramax_Dually

08-23-2002, 08:18

GrayMax,
Hey Thanks for the pictures. But you did not need to do that. We believed you and even if you were trolling you would be the one to live with the truth of the matter......

Your points were well taken to some degree. It is your perogative to be skeptical of any consumer product. Heck I am. I would have never even considered a Ford truck as I have seen to many of them Broke, I also would never buy an HP Personal Computer...But on the flip side of that I would never question buying anything made by Honda Corp. Their generators, Scooters, lawn mowers, Cars and so on are virtually problem free. I have one of each of those and I have NEVER EVER had one thing go wrong with them and I do not do any sort of preventive maintenance on them.

So a couple of problems have surfaced on 2 trucks. Both built within what appears to be 1 month of one another. There has been no clear definition why they failed as of yet. Remeber you are reading a webpage with a very small sample size. As for "Sweating Bullets" over it..Man..you need to relax a bit. Life is way way to short to sweat over any motor vehicle. Just drive it and if it breaks, get it fixed....

Good Luck..

Carry On... :D

letsgo

08-23-2002, 09:07

When these posts get too long the same old rederic starts flying BUT thats OK because every one out there knows something that no one else does so we all learn at some point, like water on a DUCKS back if theres a post I dont agree with so what, end of story.
So I take every bit of information piece it together and become more informed about my pride and joy, even though this posting is negative I am probably or will be, more informed than my service department (what a horrible thought).

Thanks to the DIESEL PAGE.

Jomar

08-23-2002, 11:05

IMHO, if someone has the jitters about a product, they should get rid of it and get something they feel comfortabel with, like I did with the PSD I had. If anyone is really scared about their DMax and trusts the 7.3 PSD more, they had better hurry and get one since the new 6 liter diesel will soon be out, with new tranny. Then we can dicuss all the problems the other guys are gonna have.

bbattrell

08-23-2002, 12:36

Letsgo
I agree 100%. Infomation is going to help the next guy. Maybe he won't wait to take it into the dealer if he has to add some coolant. I would of had mine in there as soon as I noticed it if I thought it might lead to this. This site is great I don't like posting anything negative about my pride and joy, but I would like to inform people of problems I have had. It can't go just one way, or you are not being honest at posibly the expence of somone elses motor.
Bill

[ 08-23-2002: Message edited by: bbattrell ]

Redhawk

08-23-2002, 13:12

Every man made machine, wether a truck or a toaster is liable to have problems at some point and you either live with it or fix it somehow. But not everyone feels that way. My wife refused to get into our 2000 PSD because she never wanted to be stranded in Death Valley or East Nowhere, Oregon ever again. However, I still would have bought another Ford, but for her reluctance.

So I bought my first GM product to keep her happy. I want to publicly thank her because I now own the best truck I have ever owned, come what may. The lesson here is: listen to your wife once in a while and you won't be sorry.

Redhawk

08-23-2002, 13:21

bbattrell

08-23-2002, 14:44

I just talked to the dealer. They are installing the new engine right now. He says they should have it for me Monday. I am happy with the way GM, and capitol GMC are handling this.
Bill :D

GrayMax

08-23-2002, 15:01

01_Duramax_Dually

Happy to see people like you here on this "forum" that do not go "high and right" about a negative topic/thought/belief/etc. Some simply get mad when they hear negative comments/concerns about a product they own.

100-percent agreement on the Honda products, although I'm a real supporter of American made, I still want the best bang for the buck. Unfortunately for me, it sometimes comes from a foreign company. I own a Honda EX3000 Gen. and love it! No problems at all.

Yes, I understand that there is a small percentage of owners that visit this site, I run into DMAX owners all the time that don't have a clue about this site. That being said, it definately affects numbers, negatively or positively. I'm sure GM will not share those with us.

I want all to know that I have owned the following GM products in my day:

-1970 Chevelle
-1988 Chevy 2500
-1995 Chevy Z71
-1990 Chevy SS454
-1997 Chevy ZR2 (My wifes, but I steal it and drive it as much as possible.)
-2001 Chevy 2500HD DMAX

I absolutely loved/love each one of them with complete confidence when driving. Reliability was/is superb! The DMAX however lacks my confidence and is/has been the worst out of all of the above in reliability with recall issues and such. I'm not going to get into the other reasons why, I have posted them in the past venting like I am now. I take my wife's ZR2 hunting now because I have more confidence in it, especailly off-rod than the MAX. The ZR2 will bring me back off the mountain, the DMAX, I'm not so sure. Most people here state the obvious "if you don't like it, get rid of it." I most certainly am, you don't have to tell me that. Timing is everything however, and I have to wait. This leads me back to my above comment: As I am waiting to rid myself of the MAX, I'm very concerned that if we have a serious recall on a major componet regarding our engines/transmissions such as heads, blocks, or whatever, the value of the truck will plummet. Bottom line, as I have stated before, the truck has many great qualities, it just hasn't lived up to my expectations.

For those who do not like reading negative thoughts concerns about the truck, simply don't read it. Keep in mind, this is a forum.

More Power

08-23-2002, 15:40

The DP's '01 GMC was purchased in December of 2000. To date, there has been just one visit to the dealer - for the low brake fluid sensor wire recall and to reflash the computer for the busy shifting issue.

We now have 25,000 miles on this truck (~7500 towing miles), and it continues to improve. Never has there been a mechanical or cosmetic problem, never has there been a concern about its reliability. I'm 50 years old, and this is by far the highest quality and most problem-free vehicle I've ever owned.

Two days ago we made a 450 mile trip in this truck. Fuel mileage average for the entire trip was 18.8 mpg while running at 80 mph on the interstate. My wife has commented more than once about how comfortable this truck is to travel in, and I agree.

MP

[ 08-23-2002: Message edited by: More Power ]

SoCalDMAX

08-23-2002, 16:32

Hi GrayMax,

I certainly hope you didn't interpret anything I wrote to be written in anger or to discount your opinions in any way. That's all most of us are doing here; voicing opinions, and everyone's opinion is equally valid, I sincerely feel that to be true. I sincerely apologize if anything I wrote could be construed as negative or dismissive, it certainly wasn't my intent.

I agree with 99% of what you say and how you feel, reliability (and performance to an extent)is the driving force behind the research I do before potential purchases and outweighs cost considerations to a great extent. I just feel that my truck is reliable and you disagree, and I respect that. I just wanted a chance to put it in perspective statistically, and to try to understand your point better. I now understand you've had your truck repaired before, so this is more like the straw that broke the camel's back, not the only issue.

This reminds me of a similar quality discussion. A gentleman and I were discussing car reliability a long time ago, and I said something to the effect that MB would not be able to charge so much for their vehicles if not for the superior engineering/quality/ blah blah that they possess. Just look at the customer satisfaction numbers, etc. His reply: he had lived next to a MB factory for several yrs and they had a huge lot of vehicles that had failed stringent final QC tests for fit/finish/rattles, etc and would not be delivered until they were fixed. His point was MB hadn't cornered the market on quality, just managed to fix the errors before they left the plant. I can't verify that this is true, no pictures or anything. ;)

BTW, what does "high and right" mean? Just curious, never heard anything like it except at the shooting range. I've got a feeling the answer is gonna betray my sheltered childhood... ;)

Regards, Steve

GMC-2002-Dmax

08-23-2002, 16:32

To All,

It's nice to see GM is replacing the engines. As far as the Allison failing in fleet use?? How many differnent people drive them, how much are they abusing them and how well are they being maintained??

I am not the least bit worried about my truck. Call me superstitious or crazy, but I have owned my share of new cars and trucks and used cars and trucks. I can't count them all. I know when I have a good one or a bad one, and this one I got now is about as good as it comes.

Yes I do have a few minor problems, steering wheel rattle - FIXED - left leaning truck - FIXED - and a very slight noise in left front wheel that others have as well - Working on it!!

In all I can't complain about my truck. It's by far the most comfortable, powerful and well built I have ever owned.

Sorry for the long post but I had to vent a little :mad: :mad:

GMC ;)

bbattrell

08-23-2002, 17:22

Anouther off topic post about relyability. IMO it is crazy to think the D/A is unrelyable. Maybe I am lucky, but this truck has never stranded me. I was able to drive it to the dealer everytime it has been serviced. If the coolant light hadn't comeon I would of drove the truck for the rest of the tank of fuel before checking fluid's. It certainly wasn't lacking any power, or running hot. I am not sure what kind of problem's you have experienced GrayMax to make you feel unconfident, but I hope you get them resolved. If you are so worried about the ticking get the problem documented, and if ever become a issue after your 100,000 mile warrentee I believe GM will take care of it.I have taken several long trips to OR,WA,ID,MO,WY,and Utah with my family camping in this truck. I am planning a trip to Alaska next summer with the family and camper for some fishing, and GOD willing it will be in this truck. I personally feel GM is doing a good job of addressing issues.
Bill smile.gif

Paintdude

08-23-2002, 18:42

Didn`t I see someone post a service bulletin about the ticking noise? Just the bulletin number not the sheet itself..

Idle_Chatter

08-23-2002, 18:43

Just want to apologize and say that I appreciate you "stepping up" on the pics, Graymax. You are certainly entitled to your opinions and concerns over your truck and investment therein. I don't intend to challenge or discredit those rights. You *have* however, been mostly involved in negative posts and threads and with a very sketchy signature one had to suspect you might not have been a true owner. I stand corrected and also stand as Morepower as a totally satisfied owner of a late-build 2001 that has only exhibited *one* problem in over 30,000 miles (the harsh downshift to first) that I had dealer corrected a couple of weeks ago under warranty. I'm sorry for your troubles and hope things work out for you.

GrayMax

08-23-2002, 19:09

SoCalDMAX,

No worries whatsoever, except for the ticking and tapping coming from the Gremlin in my DMAX engine ;) I most certainly did not take your comments out of text, I was referring to other post, but that's not important.

"High and Right" "Straying off course" "spooling up" "bent out of shape"

I picked up on the "high and right" in the military (Navy Vet.) and it stuck with me.

Hope all of your trucks brings you many, many trouble free miles.

As for me and my truck, "eject, eject, eject." Another military term you NEVER want to hear, unfortunately, sometimes do.

Sure would like to know about the bad engine once GM's engineering investigation is complete. Do we have any moles in the GM house that perhaps may be able to find out?

Damn, the wife just pulled in the drive with the DMAX, she's gonna want her truck back now ;)

mackin

08-23-2002, 19:43

GrayMax,

To bad you feel this way, I feel you are missing out on some good ownership times.....Have you ever gotten stranded....?I've seen many of new vehicles stranded, all brands on a hook......$hit happens.....This is more of an exception as to a rule.....Well I guess your wife will have to enjoy it then ....A few more miles in it and she won't want to let it go, now wouldn't that be a kicker........ ;)

I too stand behind a loyal GM ownership and my D-Max has exceeded my expectations...AWESOME.......

MAC :D

[ 08-23-2002: Message edited by: mackin ]

NutNbutGMC

08-23-2002, 20:46

^...My Duramax has a hum... A quite prevelant and persistent hum.... It hums like a well oiled Singer sewing machine. Too bad I can't get more than 97 stitches per hour out of it.

Mackin, nice looking machine you got there. Even if it is a Chebby!

Maverick

08-23-2002, 22:25

My Chebby has never left me standed either. I wouldn't hesitate to buy another one tomorrow. Other than my low coolant light coming on ,it is performing as expected. I didn't get a call from the dealer so I won't know anything on my truck till Mon.

bbattrell

09-02-2002, 09:35

I got the new engine, well they said it is remanurfactured. It came complete heads and injectors. I have had it back twice with coolant leeks, and it blew the a hose off the turbo intercooler. It made a loud pop when it did this and sounded scarry. I am taking it back again next week because I am seeing a oil leek. It also has the same little lopey idol. The machanic say's it needs to be broke in. I know thats not the case because it has been doing this for 20,000 + miles. It's barly noticable on the tachometer. Anyway he is sick of this truck,and is moving in a couple of weeks and I will take back when he is gone to deal with this.
Otherwise all's good
Bill