Leaking injector sleeves after injector replacement... anyone?

According to my dealer, after taking the truck in for what I perceived to be some injector problems, my #1, #4 and #6 injector sleeves are leaking - those three at a minimum. This is my second set of injectors, the originals were replaced in Jan '06 at 96K miles. I'm now at 135K miles.


Has anyone else had leaking sleeves after injector replacement where the dealer only replaced the injectors (i.e. didn't touch the sleeves)???

Anyone had a leaking sleeve on the original set of injectors???


What was your experience/resolution? If it was after an injector replacement, did the dealer accept any responsibility for it?

According to Duramaster, he's only seen *one* instance where an original factory sleeve leaked, and it sounds like that was under weird circumstances.

The dealer says it'd be $2700 to replace the sleeves, and then they'll look at replacing the injectors.

I find it hard to believe the leaks are just a coincidence and have NOTHING to do with the injector replacement, as the dealer is asserting.


Scott

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SDWA

According to my dealer, after taking the truck in for what I perceived to be some injector problems, my #1, #4 and #6 injector sleeves are leaking - those three at a minimum. This is my second set of injectors, the originals were replaced in Jan '06 at 96K miles. I'm now at 135K miles.


Has anyone else had leaking sleeves after injector replacement where the dealer only replaced the injectors (i.e. didn't touch the sleeves)???

Anyone had a leaking sleeve on the original set of injectors???


What was your experience/resolution? If it was after an injector replacement, did the dealer accept any responsibility for it?

According to Duramaster, he's only seen *one* instance where an original factory sleeve leaked, and it sounds like that was under weird circumstances.

The dealer says it'd be $2700 to replace the sleeves, and then they'll look at replacing the injectors.

I find it hard to believe the leaks are just a coincidence and have NOTHING to do with the injector replacement, as the dealer is asserting.


Scott

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I agree that it seems unlikely, but I just got done doing head gaskets, injectors, and sleeves on my 2001. Those sleeves are pushed so deeply into the head, I really can't see how they would leak unless the injectors were left completely loose or the copper sealing washer were left out of the bottom of injector. The sleeve presses into the head a full 1/4" and it is a tight fit. It is then held down by the injector which is also a tight fit. I wanted to believe my coolant consumption and pressurized cooling system was due to the sleeves and hoped the dealer would do the injectors and the sleeves for me. But even is they had, it would not have helped, since the problem was the head gaskets. I have no way to know, but I suspect the same is true for yours. My problem showed up the day after I flushed the cooling system; still, I think it was a complete coincidence.

Does your cooling system pressurize almost immediately upon start up? Feel your upper hose after you start the engine. If it gets rock hard inside of 2 minutes, I'd be about 90% certain it is the head gaskets.

The dealer wanted $3,800 in my home town and $4,500 in Fresno to do my gaskets. I am a shop owner and wasn't at all keen about dedicating 32-40 hours of my very busy life to doing work like that on my own truck, but it had to be done. The job actually took 30 hours total including installing the new injectors and sleeves. It is a big job, no question about it. But I'd hate to see you spend all that money for sleeves and end up with the same problem.

The stark reality is that there is no way to tell. The TSB allows for replacement of the sleeves with the injector job, but pays only for the parts, no extra labor, and it easily adds a couple of hours or more to the job when done in the truck. With my heads on the floor, it was easy. If you have an independent shop that does diesel work, you might have them tear it down as far as removing the injectors. If none of the sleeves come out with the injectors, I think you can rest assured that the leak is the head gaskets. Your tech can also verify that all of the copper washers were installed on the bottoms of the injectors. Take a bunch of digital pictures if you find stuff that wasn't done right, but I don't think you will. This is a hard job and no one wants a comeback.

If there was allot of carbon build up on the injector tips, the injector tubes could have been loosened when removing the injectors sense the only thing holding the sleeves in is the injectors - This should be covered by the dealer who did the injectors sense they did not leak when they got it.

Well, after a complete upper teardown, they found that - 5 - of the injector sleeves were leaking. One of the sleeves had to be cut off the injector.

After a lengthy stay at the shop (almost 5 weeks) and discussion with the service rep, service manager, regional mananger and GM customer service, a "GM Engineer" claimed there's no way the previous injector job could have disturbed the sleeves and caused the leaks. He didn't even look at the truck or the sleeves. If it's impossible, then why did GM revise the 2004 Injector bulletin in October 2006 to address dislodged sleeves??? All 5 sleeves managed to fail and leak at once?!? Miraculous! :rolleyes:

Anyway, cost me 5 weeks without the truck and almost $3000 to have all 8 of the sleeves replaced. But the coolant purging problem appears to be solved. Also gone is the slight knocking sound I used to hear when I'd let up off the throttle on medium acceleration.

Scott

Its common for injector sleeves to leak on LB7 engines. That one reason the head was redesigned for the LLy engine.



What happens during injector replacement that causes them to leak is:
#1 techs don't drain or even depressurize cooling system before removing injector hold down bracket/bolt. this causes the sleeve to pop out when the injector is removed.

I know of one person who actually saw a geyser of coolant spew from the head during injector replacement due to not draining the coolant first.



#2 The injector sticks to the bottom of the sleeve and partially or fully unseats the sleeve during removal. There is a copper gasket that seals the bottom of the injector to the sleeve and it can stick to the sleeve and pull it out.

There is also an updated o-ring to seal the sleeve to the head. there have been problems with coolant leaks around the sleeve even without injector disturbance.

Another thing, if the sleeve is disturbed and pulled up it requires a special tapered tool to reinstall. If you simply push the sleeve back into the head the o-ring can be cut by sharp edges in the head an will most likely leak.

LB7 engine has a poorly designed cylinder head (IMHO)

I would bet it is related to the injector replacement that is causing it to leak.
Very suspicious....

Don't take this as being rude, but I'm a realist and therefore here are my .02:

Since you can't get GM or the dealer to agree that there is a defect and/or that they caused the problem. You have three (or more) basic choices:

1. Do nothing... (Maybe call GM Customer care and complain - sounds like you already did this)

2. Call BBB and see what kind of dispute resolution they can do for you, this is usually the cheapest way to start.

3. Hire an attorney and experts to disagree with them and take GM to Court.

You know what SDWA:



Since reading about your problem I have actually been taking a little more care and took the extra minute to compare all the sleeves installed height. I had a couple that had just pulled a fraction of an inch. So I resealed them.


And I always drain the cooling system before starting on the injector replacement procedure. Another thing that I do is give the injector a little twist before removal of the injector in hopes that it will break some of that carbon loose. ;)

So, is it a common thing to have sleeve problems after injector replacement?

It sounds like the process used by the mechanic when replacing injectors can be tightly-coupled to whether or not there are sleeve problems in the future?

I'm "in line" to buy a used '03 taken in on trade that is in the shop right now for "hard starting" problems and the windshield has writing on it from the service dept saying "replace ECM and possibly injectors". There was a TSB on the seat when I looked it over but I don't know which one it was. The truck's got 58K on it and is otherwise in great condition to the naked eye.

Is there any recommendations anyone can make on what I should look for once it's back from the service work? I'm planning to call the service dept. today and ask the mgr what exactly is being done to that truck and if they are replacing the sleeves along with the injectors, if they are doing the injectors. I don't want to buy it next week, then in 2 months have sleeve leaks, then take it in and have them say the sleeves aren't covered - give us $3k and we'll fix it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Thumper Pilot

So, is it a common thing to have sleeve problems after injector replacement?

It sounds like the process used by the mechanic when replacing injectors can be tightly-coupled to whether or not there are sleeve problems in the future?

I'm "in line" to buy a used '03 taken in on trade that is in the shop right now for "hard starting" problems and the windshield has writing on it from the service dept saying "replace ECM and possibly injectors". There was a TSB on the seat when I looked it over but I don't know which one it was. The truck's got 58K on it and is otherwise in great condition to the naked eye.

Is there any recommendations anyone can make on what I should look for once it's back from the service work? I'm planning to call the service dept. today and ask the mgr what exactly is being done to that truck and if they are replacing the sleeves along with the injectors, if they are doing the injectors. I don't want to buy it next week, then in 2 months have sleeve leaks, then take it in and have them say the sleeves aren't covered - give us $3k and we'll fix it.

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Before signing the papers, I'd ask the dealer to include a dealer warranty for 12 months or 12K miles that covers any cooling system problem. Be upfront, tell them what you've heard about injector service and cup seals.

Jim

The dealer currently is giving a 3 month/3K warranty on the Powertrain. Which leads me to the fact that the original 5yr/100K warranty is still in-effect (it was put in service may of '03).

Does the original GM 5yr/100k warranty cover these sleeves should they start leaking? I'm not familiar with exactly what the 5/100 covers. Obviously the sleeves are on the motor, which is part of the powertrain, but it sounds like the problem is that coolant leaks into the motor - so does that make it a cooling system problem, not a 'powertrain' problem and thus not covered?

On average, how long are folks seeing the sleeve issue after having the injector work? Is it a month later, a year later, ...?

The engine, including the fuel injection system and cooling system are covered for 5 years from the date the vehicle first went into service or 100,000 miles, whichever comes first.

So yes, the injector cups would be covered by the 5/100 engine warranty.

The dealer warranty would cover the transmission, transfer case, driveline and front/rear diff.

Jim

Thanks Jim.

I wasn't sure if the cooling system was part of that warranty, but that's good news that it is.

Are the trans, transfer case, driveline and diffs covered by the 5/100 too?

Thanks for the replies and info!

Jeff

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Thumper Pilot

Thanks Jim.

I wasn't sure if the cooling system was part of that warranty, but that's good news that it is.

Are the trans, transfer case, driveline and diffs covered by the 5/100 too?

Thanks for the replies and info!

Jeff

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Jeff,

You're welcome. The 2006 and earlier vehicle coverage includes a 3/36 bumper to bumper, the engine a 5/100, and some emissions system components fall somewhere in between. Your owner's manual will have the details. So no, with the exception of the engine, the drivetrain coverage ends at 3/36. The newest 2007 model year trucks get a full 5/100 drivetrain & engine warranty. GM had to keep up with the Jones....

Jim

Then they need to do better than 5/100. Chrylser just announced LIFETIME engine and transmission warranty. (It doesn't transfer to the second or subsequent owner(s) though)