Processed WVO, Effects of...

I visited a local fuel injection shop yesterday while researching several related topics. I was shown this DB2-4911 whose owner had been running processed WVO.

http://www.thedieselpageforums.com/p...500/WVObio.jpg

This shop can recognize pumps that were running processed WVO, and do not provide a warranty on those pumps. The one shown here was obviously affected by the corrosive components in the fuel mixture, which produced a variety of engine running issues. You can tell by the appearance of the pump's exterior that this was a low-time pump. In addition to a pump rebuild, the owner was also looking at replacing all eight injectors.

Jim

Jim:

Over on the bio-diesel boards, the latest quest seems to be blending the WVO with any number of different solutions to try to lower the viscosity of the oil. I have seen stuff such as acetone, gasoline, benzine and a miriad of snake oil concoctions that would indeed cause this corrosion. Even running unwashed bio-diesel that has a high caustic content would cause similar damage.

I have been running my 6.2s and the Mercedes on home made bio-diesel now for over four years and have not encountered anything like that kind of damage. My local Stanadyne dealer loves to call me up everytime he encounters this kind of problem (probably to rub my face in it) but more times then not it is as a result of poor ULSD without additives that dynamited the pump. My experience has been quite the contrary. In the spring it takes about three tanks of bio to clean up the system as a result of running ULSD over the winter. By mid summer, the pump looks new and I can once again get the glowplugs out without breaking them.

In other words, there is no free lunch. You can pay me now or pay me later. Sure WVO is free, but what is the cost of conversion, repairs and eventual destruction of the engine. Sure bio-diesel costs in time and materials but if you take your time and do it right, it pays in the end. Or straight ULSD with the additives. Your choice.

Bill

Thanks. I'm expecting a number of others to report here about their success.... and possibly a few others with reports of problems.

Personally, I think that if done right, processed WVO should be OK, but it's the unknown and the many different WVO conversion processes out there that raise the questions. Some will be fine and a few won't be. This uncertainty about bio-diesel in general has been the biggest reason for the foot-dragging among the diesel fuel injection equipment (DFIE) and engine manufacturers in not approving ASTM certified commercial bio-diesel sooner and in larger bio percentages. GM just recently began to indicate B20 would be approved.

In the meantime, test any fuel before running it. Take two bottles, one filled with commercial ULSD and another with your home-brew. Stick a piece of mild steel into each bottle, then let them sit for a week. This'll give you some indication about the corrosive potential of the fuel, with ULSD as a baseline. :)

Jim

Jim:

Perhaps getting your terminology straight will serve to remove some confusion. Processed WVO can mean anything from filtering it through a rag, heating it up and feeding into the engine to blending or any variation in between.

There is a bunch of people out there trying to run this stuff straight with various degrees of success. Others are blending it with volitiles as I mentioned previously. This constitutes the WVO/SVO sector.

What I am doing, and alot of others, is duplicating the commercial processes that produce methyl esters (or ethyl esters...ethanol) and producing true bio-diesel. The chemistry is simple, basically cooking with dangerous chemicals, and easily reproduced in a home based processor. Regardless of the original feedstock (keeping a good eye on the "free fatty acids...FFAs") the result is the same. The intent is to remove the glycerin backbone and to bound the fatty acids to an methanol or ethanol molecule. The glycering and most of the impurities sink to the bottom and are removed. To the experienced hand, ASTM fuel can and is being made in garages all over this continent with locally available used feedstock, WVO, or virgin feedstock, SVO, using common equipment readily available in most areas.

Properly made bio-diesel can be used in up to 100% concentrations without worry on all of the older diesel designs (the jury is still out on the newer common rail diesels) and requires little or no modifications to the engine. The only concern is the gell point of the fuel. This varies depending on what the original feedstock was. Canola/Soy = good (28 degrees F), Palm oil/animal fat = "hope you live in a really warm climate".

There is a certain school of thought that the increase in NOXs (only about 1%) is a concern but the other pollutants are considerably lower, especially on the older engines. So much so that some older diesels running B100 have been shown to equal or better their tier two or three counterparts.

WVO/SVO on the other hand requires considerable modification to the vehicle and includes dual fuel tanks, heaters, valves, etc. to bring the oil up to about 160 degrees F. At this point the viscosity closely approximates diesel fuel and allows it to be fed to the engine. Blending serves the same purpose...to get the viscosity down to where the engine can handle it. Most engines will run effectively this way but the question is how long and what are the ramifications? Considerable knowledge is required when operating the vehicle, though it would seem that a number of companies have automated the process. Certainly not a turn the key and go scenario.

Hope this clears up the terminology a bit.

A piece of aluminum would serve better as an indicator. Mild steel is normally un-effected by the caustics or impurities in bio-diesel.

Bill

Great post Convert, yes anyone that runs straight waste veg oil can and most likely will have problems with corrosion. You also need to realize that Veg oil and Bio will pick up contaminates in the fuel system, tank and lines, left by diesel and these can also cause the problems in the pic.

My first thought was also what is meant by "processed WVO" as Convert points out?

I've been using 75% homebrew biodiesel in both my vehicles for the last 20k miles or so and feel very comfortable doing it. I did alot of research and pondering before I invested money in my BD system and before I put the first drop in the tank. So far, so good but I know time will tell. I will be the first to post any problems but over on the biodiesel boards, you'll find many, many happy users. There will always be someone who made a bad batch, put it in the tank and had problems. I am very careful and will test for completeness of processing and will check soap ppm on each batch.

Bottom line, to each his own.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by convert2diesel

Jim:

Perhaps getting your terminology straight will serve to remove some confusion. Processed WVO can mean anything from filtering it through a rag, heating it up and feeding into the engine to blending or any variation in between.

There is a bunch of people out there trying to run this stuff straight with various degrees of success. Others are blending it with volitiles as I mentioned previously. This constitutes the WVO/SVO sector.

What I am doing, and alot of others, is duplicating the commercial processes that produce methyl esters (or ethyl esters...ethanol) and producing true bio-diesel. The chemistry is simple, basically cooking with dangerous chemicals, and easily reproduced in a home based processor. Regardless of the original feedstock (keeping a good eye on the "free fatty acids...FFAs") the result is the same. The intent is to remove the glycerin backbone and to bound the fatty acids to an methanol or ethanol molecule. The glycering and most of the impurities sink to the bottom and are removed. To the experienced hand, ASTM fuel can and is being made in garages all over this continent with locally available used feedstock, WVO, or virgin feedstock, SVO, using common equipment readily available in most areas.

Properly made bio-diesel can be used in up to 100% concentrations without worry on all of the older diesel designs (the jury is still out on the newer common rail diesels) and requires little or no modifications to the engine. The only concern is the gell point of the fuel. This varies depending on what the original feedstock was. Canola/Soy = good (28 degrees F), Palm oil/animal fat = "hope you live in a really warm climate".

There is a certain school of thought that the increase in NOXs (only about 1%) is a concern but the other pollutants are considerably lower, especially on the older engines. So much so that some older diesels running B100 have been shown to equal or better their tier two or three counterparts.

WVO/SVO on the other hand requires considerable modification to the vehicle and includes dual fuel tanks, heaters, valves, etc. to bring the oil up to about 160 degrees F. At this point the viscosity closely approximates diesel fuel and allows it to be fed to the engine. Blending serves the same purpose...to get the viscosity down to where the engine can handle it. Most engines will run effectively this way but the question is how long and what are the ramifications? Considerable knowledge is required when operating the vehicle, though it would seem that a number of companies have automated the process. Certainly not a turn the key and go scenario.

Hope this clears up the terminology a bit.

A piece of aluminum would serve better as an indicator. Mild steel is normally un-effected by the caustics or impurities in bio-diesel.

Bill

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Bill, The steel components in the DB2-4911 are what were affected (rusted) in the photo. The aluminum inside the housing doesn't appear to be affected - even during a close-up personal inspection before shooting that photo.

Processed WVO "can" mean many things to many different people, just as there are many types of WVO derived diesel fuel out there. That's the problem. What might be good fuel as a result of one process completed by a conscientious producer doesn't mean that all fuel produced by every individual using a similar process might be good.

No home-brewed WVO can be ASTM certified unless that fuel is submitted to and then certified by an ASTM lab. Saying a WVO derived fuel is ASTM is probably not the most correct way of describing it - unless it is ASTM certified.

I'm not against bio-diesel - I've run commercial ASTM B20 in my Duramax. But, I do believe there needs to be some degree of caution in the home-brew areas. That's why I posted the pic...;)

Jim

Rust is more indicative of water in the system.
I would say you can get that with the diesel fuel just as easy, depending on the storage and other factors.

Jim:

Believe it or not, many home brewers are anal enough to pay to have their fuel tested, and are indeed doing it to prove methodology, equipment refinements, feedstock quality, alternate catalysts etc. Many of the labs also offer a "stipped down" version of the full test to test for the truly important perameters (fuel conversion, glycerin content, mono and di glyceride content, water and free methanol content and PH).

As well as these there have been some quick and dirty tests developed that can be done on-site that will indicate if you are even in the ball park. A point or two either way is not going to adversely effect your engine, just don't try to sell it.

I agree, standards must be established to assure quality on an on-going basis and that standard should be used as a benchmark for anyone trying to do anything. I won't get into the question as to the validity of the ASTM standard but suffice it to say the standard has some alterior motives behind it.

Many homebrewers have passed the full test using WVO as feedstock while many more have paid the money and not passed. As I said before, it can be done. It just takes patience, knowledge and practice.

Either way, it is my opinion that the home brewer is just re-arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. The large rendering companies have already started a campaign against the private collection of WVO in many jurisdictions and it is only a matter of time before legislation is passed, banning the practice. Just like prohibition but with grease :D. The farmer will still be able to make his own using crop derived SVO but that will be controlled by the economic model.

I agree with 93 in that the problem with the pump was probably caused by water in the fuel. This leads me to believe that the owner was either using saturated WVO or if he was using home brew, during the wash cycle, he didn't dry his fuel properly or he picked up a bad batch of ULSD.

By the way, I was in Northern New York this afternoon and the price of diesel was 3.69/gallon. Is this indicative of the prices all the way down the eastern seaboard? Going south in April and want to know how big a second mortgage I have to take out to fuel the Buick.

Bill

I have been running my 6.5L Suburban for over 2 years (50,000 miles) on straight recycled Waste Vegetable Oil. with some interesting findings.

First, my ENTIRE diesel fuel delivery system went down in February. They replaced the fuel sending unit, fuel pump, rebuilt the Injector Pump and replaced all the injectors. The IP and injectors were sent to a company for testing and they included that they were shot. Just worn out (engine has 230 Gs on it) When asked, they indicated the WVO WAS NOT the culprit, just time and miles.

My WVO processing unit includes a 4-drum system involving time, heat and settling. I move oil from the first drum to the 4th over a 3 to 4 week time period allowing the oil to heat and settle before moving it. Each week I fill my VO tank and/or clean storage and shift the other oil over one drum and refilling the "dumo" drum. Each time I move the oil I make sure I am pumping from above any settled water or particulate. The final product has been heated and settle for 4 weeks since dumping into the first drum, and in the winter I cook the final drum to 250 Deg F until the oil stops bubbling (to reduce the possibility of suspended water). The final act is filtering to 5 microns. I believe my injectors are factory set for 20 microns.

THe oil is then heated by the engine coolant to between 160 and 200 deg F BEFORE I switch it over to ensure the viscosity is reduced to allow the IP to move it and spray it like diesel.

I do know that using biodiesel in a diesel engine can result in clogged filters and injectors as well as smoky exhaust (at least at first) because biodiesel is an excellent solvent and will pull the algae, gunk and crud from within the diesel system.

I will be making biodiesel for the diesel tank shortly and hope to almost totally remove standard diesel from my fueling system.

Thanks for the discussion,

forbey

On a side note WVO is a non-corrosive, extremely good lubricant by nature. Any rusting in the system should be indicative of oxidation-reduction reactions which I agree with a previous comment that this would be more of an indication of water than particulate matter. Coking or coating with unburned organinc matter, and/or blue smoke emissions, would indicate poor filtering or processing, and/or improper heating of the WVO resulting in incomplete combustion of the fuel.

forbey

I'd say same thing the poster above. There is not much trouble IF everything is done right. That pump looks to me that there was a high water content in the WVO. I bet he didn't heat it and filter it good... That's what you get. Overseas they running this stuff in Mercedes Taxis day in day out with very little problem. Matter effect there are SVO pumps as well. :D Anyhow things like that always shows how much WVO knowledge the owner of that pump had.

I agree that whoever owned that pump did something wrong, and that using WVO, SVO or any other recognized diesel fuel alternative may not be inherently bad. The point of posting that photo was to illustrate what can happen when things go wrong. It's just a caution.... ;)

Jim