Medium Duty Quality thread- Monroe
I had the recent pleasure of purchasing a C4500 with a pickup conversion from Monroe with So-Low suspension. I took delivery of the vehicle with 0.7 miles on it at the Monroe's Flint facility. I was excited to stand next to it, but everything else was a disappointment. So began the saga.
This vehicle incidentally passed all of Monroe's and GM's QC checks. It has been the most disappointing vehicle purchase that I have ever made. I want to increase the awareness of these problems for everyone...to advance the knowledge of this community. I encourage all of the medium duty owners to check their vehicles for the same problems and check NHTSA.gov for TSB's and defects investigatons for their particular vehicle as well. GM is getting ready to sell off the medium duty products to Navistar...maybe no one cares anymore.
The vehicle did not get a pre-purchase inspection by the dealer, so this is how it comes. And don't forget...your medium duty dealer may not be your local neighborhood dealer.
At 0.7 miles:
1) Driver's headlight out.
2) Headlights not aimed...pointing about 15 feet infront of the truck...just about useless. Monroe does not apparently align or examine the headlights after altering the suspension of the truck.
3) Water leaking through cab lights onto the brake pedal and onto the driver's floor.
4) Right rear passenger door leading edge so far out of alignment that air and water could enter the passenger compartment. Every '07 Kodiak that I have seen has the same door problem!
5) Severe front end vibration at 50, 60, and 70 mph with severe steering wheel shake at higher speeds. I've discovered that GM didn't bother balancing the Alcoa wheels. The medium duty dealer recently put 5 oz on weight on each of them and the vibration persists. Flat spots? Monroe's shocks? Alignment? All are possible culprits of the continued vibration.
6) Steering wheel about 20 degrees clockwise. Monroe's 0.6 mi test drive obviously failed to see this or the vibration. No alignment bolts touched, so I guess it wasn't aligned after being lowered 2". I was told by Monroe's inside sales that if the steering wheel is straight on the test drive that the QC check is satisfied!
7) Rust on all the aftermarket fasteners and rusty scuffs on the running boards. The suspension U-bolts look awful from behind. Beware snow belters!
8) No apparent block sanding of the Monroe pickup bed. Fine imperfections up and down the length of the fiberglass.
9) GM's orangepeel on the cab finish is awful. Monroe's finishing process was far superior on the bed. To the trained eye..this is the dead giveaway that the paint wasn't put on by the same process.
10) Brake squeal. I think this is also a common problem.
11) Factory CD radio stinks. Not really a problem...this is a commercial vehicle right?
My truck has already spent a day at the GM dealer and there was a lot of finger pointing at Monroe. Monroe's warranty folks seem anxious to help, but why should I have to do all of this? I now have to take it to a tractor alignment facility to align Monroe's suspension, and my experience tells me the vibration won't be solved here. It's going to be a David V. Goliath and a lot more finger pointing.
It now has 800 miles on it and I haven't been able to tow anything secondary to the vibration.
Also, beware of the titling and insurance woes. In Ohio, it is considered commercial from both the titling, financing, and insurance standpoint. Get quotes first! Only GMAC seems willing to treat it as a non-comm vehicle.
There is no JD Power or Kelly Blue book or Edmunds to keep you out of these possible shark infested waters.
I encourage feedback. Maybe a Medium duty "quality" forum should be started.
It's a little more complicated than that
I'm not into mud slinging for fun. This looks like a pandemic from my perspective, so I will defend my position.
GM is responsible for the defective headlamp, which is a pretty big issue when you are driving the vehicle for the first time at dusk. I had to bail out in a rest area in a Michigan snow storm and then limp to a parts joint just to get the truck home. I also had to buy a cheap torx driver. Upon replacing the headlamp I realized that the steel springs and stamped housings were all badly corroded...not terribly pleasant to deal with with cold fingers, and not a bright outlook for future headlight changes.
No one inspected the door at body. There was another Kodiak at the dealership of the same year...with exactly the same door issue. I did not feel alone. This was not an accident with just this truck.
Shipping a vehicle with a factory wheel option and not placing a single wheel weight on those wheels when they were 5oz out of balance doesn't really seem appropriate.
Then the cab lights...water all over the brake actuating rod and the pedal which was frozen. Water in the dash and on the brake system looks like a safety matter waiting to happen. Again, the other Kodiak at the dealership had a wet headliner and water inside too, and there were a pile of new cab lights on the seat waiting to be installed.
We agree on the radio! But I really did not expect much with the size of that cab and the size of the speakers.
Monroe and GM seem like equals to me. 6 or 7 of the 11 points point to GM. My opinion. And I absolutely respect yours and anyone elses for that matter. This is my third GM. Maybe I've had bad luck this time, but that is for everyone else to decide. I tried really hard to be objective and not opinionated.
Tires, Alignment and GM Customer Service Response
If it's true that the Medium Duties are not getting wheels balanced at delivery, I think GM may be responsible for the consequences. I'm getting this resolved early in the life-cycle of my tires, but if I was having premature wear and/or cupping, I think I would be making a much bigger issue of this. Wheels out of balance cause premature shock and tire failure.
This is a MD Quality thread. Chime in if your Kodiak doesn't have wheel weights.
Chime in if your Kodiak has quality problems in general. Things won't change unless we develop a community voice.
By the way...GM Medium duty cust.service called today. They reviewed my list of complaints...and when they found out it was up-fitted by Monroe, they wanted to close the case. They told me my only option was to take it to a GM/Monroe dealer which was 1.5 hours away. I urged them to keep the case open until the truck was right.
Monroe and GM have both denied me an alignment even though the vehicle was lowered, it continues to shake, the steering wheel is off, and the GM mechanic suggested it! They ignored the fact that the rear wheels still have not been balanced and ignored the other 5 issues that I had. I don't know what to do with the appointment that I have at the GM mechanic-approved, out-sourced truck shop. I am in communication with Goodyear too. They want it taken to one of their shops to check the radial runout for a possible defect. But, since the truck sat in Monroe's yard for so long they said they'd probably deny a claim for flat spots in the belt.
Problem? Take three minutes and fill out NHTSA's form
So far there are 1 or 2 people on this thread with similar troubles, some of which are safety concerns. Please go to this link, put in vehicle year, make, and KODIAK, and type a few sentences. This is where we begin to get something done here.
You can select c4500 or c5500, but leave it under KODIAK.
https://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/ivoq/Consumer.cfm
Please let NHTSA know about your wheel weights, uneven tire wear, leaking cab lights, poorly aimed headlights, mirrors, etc...if it's a safety concern or defect, they will do an investigation, but like the Atty General, there needs to be multiple WRITTEN complaints to make something happen.
Identify the upfitter in the text too, if it relates to them.
Right on. Keep posting alignment, wheel, or headlamp issues!
You are correct, and it follows with what my relatively-local MD dealer says, except, they routinely do not balance unless they feel a vibration. I'm not sure they would have picked up on the headlight alignment, unless they were specifically looking at it. The problem here is that, even though there are PDI monies for this type of thing, they would not touch any suspension related items unless Monroe Warranty gave consent...which they did not. The GM mechanic "sealed" but did not replace the cab lights, which I assume is because they were not cracked, and he fit the door nicely.
Recently, the delivering saleman has assured me that they would pay for an alignment and balancing on the company CC, just to avoid Monroe all-together on the other safety issues.
But that's the tragedy...hole in the fence or otherwise...these vehicles shouldn't be hitting the streets like they are. It's the 21st century, and there are certain basic standards that should be met at the manufacturer.
Let's not talk about "value" or "ride" on this thread. That is subjective. Please continue posting if you have quality issues. As I've said elsewhere, if we are complacent, further mediocrity with ensue, as it is evident there are no watchdogs and the manufacturers are taking full advantage.
Suspension Geometry--lowered vehicle problems--update
So I took the early advice and had my Kodiak alignment looked at by a tractor pro--a real artisan.
He said that it was not acceptable for an alignment to be neglected by Monroe after such modifications. Mine was not tracking straight in the rear, secondary to a axle which was 1/8" off perpendicular, and you know about the steering wheel already.
Monroe drops these front ends (So-Low) about 2" and then moves the steering wheel about 2 splines one direction or another. On my truck, the wheel was still too far to the right--over corrected. Herein lies a major design flaw. It is my understanding, after my suspension clinic today, that steering boxes operate at their tightest tolerances where the factory zeros the steering wheel. There is a mark on the steering shaft at zero. By moving it 45 degrees, one side or the other, you are begging for sloppy steering and an uneven "feel" and "range" (his words.) Monroe does not install an adjustable drag link to put the steering box back to "zero" ...ever. This effectively lengthens the drag link. So they are begging for sloppy steering and again violating acceptable engineering standards. Looking at the design, I see now why I get bump steer which is worse on left wheel impacts than on the right, add that to the sloppy steering accuracy, and this shows how these could be made so, so much better.
Read: make a DOT-accepted adjustable drag link and you will sell hundreds.
We examined the new Goodyear Highway tires and there was significant tread lateral runout as well as a radial hop in each. This explains the vibration. The balance on one was still not perfect yet. I'm meeting with Goodyear tomorrow; we'll see how they will address this.
I will later measure the input and output angles on the drive shaft to see if they are within 4 degrees or whatever the spec is. This was recent advice.
I don't think the dealer would do this amount of "sorting" even if they are getting the PDI check.
The saga continues. Read it only if you like sad stories.
Met the Goodyear representative today. I thought this was going to be the silver bullet. I was planning my first 600 mile trip with towing (same day) and was pushing it pretty close. The intended use of the truck is to pull 4 horses in a 8k trailer and pull a double car hauler. It pulled the empty horse trailer today. To concentrate on defects:
1) OE right front tire got replaced, as it had 65 thousandths of radial runout. He was not comfortable with it. The left had 40 thousandths-- less than 70 is within spec. He was not concerned with the tread lateral jog. He tried to reseat the bead to make it go away. No change. It got rebalanced up front. They checked it first with the GM MD dealer weights, and the balancer read "0"s. It had about 5-6 oz a piece, divided inside and out. They took off the weights...made a mess of the Aluminum incidentally... and the balancer called for 3oz on the outside lip only. How can two balancer's call for a 2oz difference? And it read the 5 oz as being OK? So now I'm skeptical of the balancer. Not very accurate. Or it read the piezo and found a different solution to the harmonics with the same result.
2) Looks like the Alcoas have at least 10 thousandths of runout. I was told that is OK. We remounted the wheels with the high spot "up" so to further use the slack in the hub to minimize the runout. Thoughtful, but not terribly sceintific. Despite my request, they hit 'em with a 1" impact. Not a torque wrench in the truck shop!
3) Heard from two separate people (not employees) while the Goodyear rep was "away", that the only way to make a MD stop shaking is Michelin.
4) During the trip, at 50 mph and especially in a long, high-load turn, there is a lateral vector to the persistent vibration. It is down right awkward in a turn. I was looking at the hash marks on the speedo and they were definitely moving left to right. It still shakes violently at 70, with and without a load...8k trailer...empty. The vibration at 60 is gone mostly, but comes and goes.
5) I can feel the steering wheel pass through zero "and tighten up" on a gradual right turn. I wonder how the steering wheel shift has affected the turns to the left and turns to the right? I also wonder if the "slop" is compounding the lateral vibration while turning-- at the speed, load of a cloverleaf.
Weight definitely makes the Kodiak more behaved. I agree with those who claim this. But I've got 2.5 days tied up into making this stop shaking and still no result, with and without the load. It's awful. I mean it. If you try to talk to someone while driving, it's like you're getting a fist-pounding massage.
6) Oh, the trailer brake controller. It's not progressive like a Prodigy. Comes on and stays at the set level. I had to turn it all the way down to drive in a rural setting; The trailer was trying to stop the Kodiak before I was applying any real pedal pressure. It was set on "2" max. Am I missing something, or is this Draw-tite unit bad? All it has is a manual slider and gain knob and NO documentation from Monroe.
I don't know what to do next. Get GM to put a set of Michelins on it, and make an adjustable drag link, and buy a Prodigy? And then start all over with the shop visits and build the Kodiak the way it should have been built?
Check your option list, build sheet
Options S4L and R4L are Michelins.
My truck is brand new and has the Premium Goodyear Highway tire option.
ZF lenksysteme --steering-- opinion
So here's the word from ZF engineering/Sachs:
Moving the steering wheel as a solution to the drag link geometry change upon lowering a Kodiak creates two problems.
1) Steering range different left to right--determined by release valve or wheel stops, regardless, it changes.
2) Steering feel becomes loose, as the steering gear is out of it's sweet spot--tightest tolerence.
Best solution is changing the drag link. Next best is changing the pitman angle. Changing the pitman angle creates another smaller problem for rate and effort, but much less noticable.
Remember all of this is happening in the background of Monroe denying me an alignment.