After market heads

So far the only real negative talk about this stuff is assumed problems and really nothing much to any great degree has surfaced.
I really would like someone to come and tell me a truely honest horror story about this stuff.

We have one member here that has found some minor issues but nothing that is curling my hair.
The biggest complaint so far seems to be, well "WHAT IF IT BREAKS"

So Far we have not heard one horror story, not that it cant happen, I just want to hear one before I condemn the product is all. :)

And as far a AMG/GEP having a plant over there. IF they did and word got out the trash would be called down by the bucket load me thinks and the dark clouds of condemnation would be a gathering on the horizon.

The stigma that if it comes from China is that it cant be any good.

Be aware I am playing both sides of the fence here. I hate seeing jobs going over seas as much as anyone else.

I also dont like seeing parts that are out of reach price wise for us poor folks.

I still think (althoughI can't prove it) that some good O'l boys here in the states are behind this whole thing and are cutting a fat hog.

Rich (RAT MAN) bought a set of these heads after considering his options.
We talked the other night to great length about these heads and he is totally happy with what came out of the box.

I would still like to hear from someone that can give us a real good writeup as to the faults and post some pictures of a Chinese cast head that has failed while in use.

If I see a good writeup of a head/heads from CCH that have failed due to workmanship or material defects I will be quite satisfied that maybe there is an issue here.

Until this happens I am still not going to throw too much trash their way.

best to all

Robyn

My biggest problem with Chinese stuff is that China is NOT a friend of the US. They peg their currency to ours, their trade policy is very one-sided, and they are using our dollars to fund the largest military in the world. Thus, I hate spending money on goods made there. I do think they can turn out quality stuff, especially something as low-tech as cast iron parts. I would simply prefer that my money stay here, or at the very least goes into the economy of a friendly nation.

For the most part, I try not to buy stuff that originates in China. However, I will acknowledge that there are times when one has little choice. Try buying a PC that isn't made, at least in part, in China. Same thing for most other consumer electronics. If I have a choice I will usually buy the non-Chinese item despite the higher price of the non-Chinese item. There are limits though - when I compare a $30 Chinese brake rotor to a $50 Canadian rotor, I will spend the extra $20 every time. However, when it comes down to the difference between $500 and $1100, well, $600 is a a good chunk of change to most of us.

In retrospect they weren't a great bargain, but even considering the money I will have to spend to have them resurfaced after I install the GM precups they are still going to be much less expensive than the next cheapest alternative, and far less than a set of AMG heads.

On the subject of the integrity of the Chinese castings I can say this: my machinist, who does mostly gasser stuff, has had plenty of customers use the Chinese Vortec-clone head on SBC's. They are coated with the same black paint as the 6.5 heads are, so I wonder if they originate from the same foundry. Anyway, he acknowledges that the casting isn't as nice and pretty as the GM head, and the machining can be rough on some of them. However, he also stated that he has never seen one crack, while the GM Vortec heads commonly crack in service. Hopefully these 6.5 heads hold up as well. We shall see...

I have been using CCH for at least 4 years now one set is 5 years old was the test set we used that truck was still running strong when I sold the truck 2 months ago.

Robyn spoke of Frito Lay using these that is correct I was involved in the decision to try these heads and I was also the person that installed the first set we used in are area.

The truck we installed them on had 126k on it it had broken a belt and the driver drove it 15 miles or more on interstate and cooked the engine he only noticed there was a problem when he went to get on the ramp no power steering and then noticed temp was pegged when he stopped then the steam came out. I had reinstalled the belt and refilled with coolant the truck drank coolant driver called after 5 days told me he used 6 gallon of coolant in 5days. after test found what I figured was blowing head gasket (hope that was all) pull heads found bad head gasket, then flipped the heads over and the cracks in the heads looked like spider webs. You could easily tell these heads where trashed, I was out of stock on new GM/GEP heads.

I had seen an add for CCH so after calling them asking all the same question Robyn had asked and some finical question regarding there company, myself and 6 or 7 other company people had a conference call talked over the pro and cons and them being made in china did come up we decided to try a set on this truck as it would cost us less for 2 heads then one from GM and we where not sure if this engine was going to last along time anyway. So I ordered a set of heads they overnighted them to me at no extra charge (good sales tactic to get my large fleet business) was very impressed with what they sent me. Installed them truck never missed a beat the rest of its life, its even lost the belt again when alt locked up at 188K miles different drive he noticed only got to 260 that time replaced alternator new belt topped off coolant ran until 224K when I sold it.

Side note we have a buyer that is buying a large majority of are 6.5 powered trucks and pulling the engines and shipping container after container to Australia they want the engines.

I can not give you a total number of head we have purchased however I will tell you we buy them 8 sets at a time, I have seen a drastic drop in failed heads as most of are old gm engines are about gone and now the majority are a GEP produces engines

Robyn asked if anyone has ever had a failure to speak up. I can tell you I have NEVER had a single failure to date of heads from CCH.

I do not like buying made in China items however it all comes down to the all might dollar if I can buy US for few dollars more I will if it several hundred to thousand more I keeping my green backs.

Here is something to think about I have a friend in the scrap business I asked him few years back why scrap prices have soared ( I'm not complaining) the Chinese are buying everything they can get there hands on on world market driving the price. He went on to tell me that there is only a 2 or 3 day scrap supply on the world markets for certain types of metals mostly going to china.

Who do we have to thank for the loss of US jobs to foreign out sourcing the EPA they have made the regulation to cost prohibitive for are US companies to build new foundries.

Ok I'm done ranting now sorry

Thank you for this input.
I agree 100% about the outsourcing and keeping the $$$ in our pocket.

As long as our companies are strangled by overpowering EPA regs they are going to go where they can operate at a good profit.

I am still wanting to hear a nasty, sad and ugly story about a set of these heads.

Please someone share more info on this stuff.

Maybe someone has a story good or bad on the new blocks too.

Rat man got his new one after it had been through a truck wreck and was torn up during shipping and he sent it back.

More please.


Best to all and thanks to all who have offered input.

Robyn

I just visited the CCH web site, and saw that they list the manufacturer of both their 6.5 reman and new heads as "GM". :eek:

Like I've said before, people can spend their money how they wish, but I think they should know where the parts come from.

Jim

Jim I THINK? that "Mfg: GM" is the vehicle mfg, "model: TRUCK" etc (not the actual part mfg). Yeah part number is little misleading as well GM825 though? But at least they are not using the AC Delco or GM part number and adding a useless 9 to the tail of the number or other "trick". I agree actual part mfg and country of origin should be divulged. I think they probably have some liberty as it could be assembled here in the US or other loop hole.

Robyn you can bet the barn USA corporations are setting up plants in China and being quiet about it.

Sorry not a specific 6.5 head/block story but I use to work for a tool mfg that sold a fair bit of tooling shipping to China. Some through big USA tooling, machine, and line builders. One job was for a big diesel engine mfg and they were adamant about keeping thier name clean of "made in China" to the point of making all new blue prints with a fake or subsidiary company name in the title block for mfg part prints sent out for tooling quotes and orders. And IF the engine company's name was mentioned, leaked, or other in writing then the machine builder would be fined according to contract (never learned who it was). As typical start ups go several big orders for replacement tools were made until bugs and learing curve was up. Also as time went on yes I am sure they copied tools and out sourced to other tooling vendors (some of which is just typical tooling business).

Everything on the ad page linked above would lead people to assume CCH sells GM manufacturered 6.5L cylinder heads. It's misleading (trying to be polite)....

It would be far better to say: "Aftermarket cylinder heads for the GM 6.5L diesel engine". ;)

Jim

OK I give.

The ad is written in such a way that if one assumes they are GM heads then I guess it could be taken that way. I read it as being the model of vehicle and engine they fit and not who made the parts.

I asked right up front what they were and was told that they are overseas castings with MOSTLY US made valves springs and such that are RECON (USED)

CCH is right up front about it when asked, never so much as a stutter.

Robyn

Hi all
Robyn i'v had an idea floating around in my head for a while,lots of room for them,rarely do the hit anything important;)
Anyhow my question to you seeing how you have talked with CCH a fair bit is, Do they get raw castings and machine them inhouse? If not do they have thier own spec's that the castings get machined too?
Happy New Year
Thomas

Cant give you a 100% answer on that one. Sales says they do the machining and the installation of all components in house.

Now do they machine the deck and the valve seats ect. I dont know.
The way it was put to me It could be either way.
The set of heads I got had very good machine work on them. The guides were great as were the valve seats. Concentricity of the seat to the guide was very good. Stem to guide clearance was fine too.

The set I have had perfect machining on the decks and manifold surfaces.
The only issue I had was the threads for the Glowplugs.
I had to run a tap through them before the plugs would screw in the way I wanted them to.
I would check all threads that go into critical areas before ever installing any head due to the possibilities of having to yank one back off and losing a set of bolts plus the gasket.


All in all great machining on these.

I am thinking due to the comments that some have made about some rather shoddy looks to some heads that the castings may be coming in bare and unfinished and the finish work is being done here.

I would never buy a bare casting as the assembled ones come with the warranty and the bare ones dont.

Hope this helps

Robyn

Good Day!

I tend to agree that suppliers should be very clear about where their parts come from, or at least that they weren't made by the OEM. On the other hand, if I don't buy the part from a GM (or any OEM for that matter) outlet, I ASSUME that parts are NOT from the OEM - when I buy a lift pump from NAPA, I assume it was NOT made by GM, & would quite frankly be surprised if it had been.

Blessings!

I don't know how many are aware of this, but at least one of our longtime advertising vendors sell what I assume are the Chinese 6.5 heads. www.dieselservices.com

They advertise the lowest cost in North America for new bare or dressed 6.5 cylinder heads. Their ad says:
"DSG offers brand new Diesel Pro cylinder heads for all GM 6.5L pickup applications."
http://www.dieselservices.com/html/g..._bare_p421.cfm

Notice, they don't say "MFG: GM". Diesel Services put their own name on them... ;)

Jim

CLEARWATER CYLINDER HEAD INC IS SELLING THIS NEW 6.5 GM DIESEL CYLINDER HEAD. THIS HEAD IS COMPLETE WITH VALVES AND SPRINGS. THIS HEAD IS CASTING #567 AND COMES WITH A 2 YR UNLIMITED MILEAGE WARRANTY. THIS IS A AFTERMARKET CASTING AND IS MUCH THICKER AND STRONGER IN ALL THE CRITICAL AREAS THEN THE FACTORY HEAD.

The above is a quote from there ebay listing. Seem to me they are 100% honest in letting the you know it is aftermarket.

I think I will try a set. Good price. Good warranty. redbird2 gives a good testimony of the product.

While we are on the issue of heads, how about gaskets? Anyone try Cometic gaskets(MLS) for the 6.5? Price is about $100 a side. They also make ones for the duramax.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by More Power

I don't know how many are aware of this, but at least one of our longtime advertising vendors sell what I assume are the Chinese 6.5 heads. www.dieselservices.com

They advertise the lowest cost in North America for new bare or dressed 6.5 cylinder heads. Their ad says:
"DSG offers brand new Diesel Pro cylinder heads for all GM 6.5L pickup applications."
http://www.dieselservices.com/html/g..._bare_p421.cfm

Notice, they don't say "MFG: GM". Diesel Services put their own name on them... ;)

Jim

---

I contacted DSG to find out some more info on their heads and blocks. They offer two kinds of heads: remanufactured and new. The reman heads are genuine GM heads with all new hardware and liners in the coolant passages between the valves. The new heads, both bare and fully loaded, are "offshore" aftermarket heads.

They advertise a "new" 6.5L engine that they call the "Titan". They told me that this is the new AMG block and heads, with their goodies added onto it, such as the gear drive and stud girdle.

Casey

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kevin

CLEARWATER CYLINDER HEAD INC IS SELLING THIS NEW 6.5 GM DIESEL CYLINDER HEAD. THIS HEAD IS COMPLETE WITH VALVES AND SPRINGS. THIS HEAD IS CASTING #567 AND COMES WITH A 2 YR UNLIMITED MILEAGE WARRANTY. THIS IS A AFTERMARKET CASTING AND IS MUCH THICKER AND STRONGER IN ALL THE CRITICAL AREAS THEN THE FACTORY HEAD.

The above is a quote from there ebay listing. Seem to me they are 100% honest in letting the you know it is aftermarket.

---

The eBay ad just means that vendors respect eBay's truth in advertising requirements - as well as buyer feedback. Why don't they say the same thing on their own web site? All they would have to do is change "MFG: GM" to "MFG: Aftermarket".;)

Jim

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kevin

While we are on the issue of heads, how about gaskets? Anyone try Cometic gaskets(MLS) for the 6.5? Price is about $100 a side. They also make ones for the duramax.

---

I don't know of anyone who has. Quite a few of the Cummins guys have tried them, but they say they won't hold more than 60-70psi :D

Seriously, if all you need is a replacement for a stock thickness gasket or a .010" thicker gasket the Fel-Pro's seem to hold up fine. The nice thing about the Cometics is that you can get them much thicker than stock. A pair of .074" thick Cometics on a 21.3:1 engine should give you approximately 18:1 compression. It's a heck of a lot cheaper than a set of pistons ;) Assuming they hold up...

One thing to remember about Cometic gaskets is that they specify a finish of 50RA or better for their gaskets, which is a fairly smooth finish. Also, they don't have as much conformability as the Fel-Pro's or other stock-type gaskets, so the surfaces need to be quite flat. Just something to keep in mind...

Just a note here.
Although I have used CCH heads and still believe that they are a good choice for a rebuild when the big $$$$$ is an issue, the point of declaring the Mfg is a good point.

Jim has pointed out that DSG makes it clear that their heads are not OEM in origin and this is a good point.

DSG is also a supporting vendor of TDP and this is a good thing. :)
Supporting these vendors is also a very good thing. :D

I have emailed CCH and asked them about making a disclosure on their web site/ catalogue and as yet have not received an answer.
I may call them and speak with the manager and see if they are willing to make this adjustment.

Personally I still think that any time you buy a part that does not slide across the counter at the MA GENERAL store that it should be considered an aftermarket part and its up to you to ask questions if you feel the need to know more information.

I really would like to know what the origin of the aftermarket head and block castings is as far as who is behind them and actually is pulling the strings.

Seems to be a lot of companies selling replacement heads now and there can't be that many different outfits making the castings.

Best to all

Robyn

Just a note here.
Although I have used CCH heads and still believe that they are a good choice for a rebuild when the big $$$$$ is an issue, the point of declaring the Mfg is a good point.

Jim has pointed out that DSG makes it clear that their heads are not OEM in origin and this is a good point.

DSG is also a supporting vendor of TDP and this is a good thing. :)
Supporting these vendors is also a very good thing. :D

I have emailed CCH and asked them about making a disclosure on their web site/ catalogue and as yet have not received an answer.
I may call them and speak with the manager and see if they are willing to make this adjustment.

Personally I still think that any time you buy a part that does not slide across the counter at the MA GENERAL store that it should be considered an aftermarket part and its up to you to ask questions if you feel the need to know more information.

I really would like to know what the origin of the aftermarket head and block castings is as far as who is behind them and actually is pulling the strings.

Seems to be a lot of companies selling replacement heads now and there can't be that many different outfits making the castings.

Best to all

Robyn

OOOOOOOOOOOOOKKKKKKK

I just got off the phone with CCH
Talked with Bob about where their new 6.5 head castings are coming from.

The answer was "Australia". Hmmmm I asked him if that the supplier in Australia was a middleman on the way from China?

He said "I dont think so, BUTT it could be"
I asked him about placing a disclosure on their web site as to the Mfg.
He said he would do so, WE SHALL SEE.
I will keep an eye on their site and see how long it takes if it even happens.
Im sure that if their business is brisk that this is not going to be a real priority item.

Just so you know that I did follow up on this.

Robyn

Word on the street is that DSG did try a few of the copy blocks or "AMG Style" blocks in the beginning. It was told that there were issues with the blocks. The block had numerous issues with machining specifications, they had to check everything on each block, only to find issues. A few engines made it into service, some have run well, a few came back with extremely low oil pressure problems. The engines were taken apart and the normal causes were narrowed out of the investigation. The issue was likely a oil passage issue in the casting.

They are currently using AMG shortblocks now.

J

Robyn hit it on the head.........

DSG is also a supporting vendor of TDP and this is a good thing.
Supporting these vendors is also a very good thing.

Follow the money. DSG pays so they must be great & CCH must be trash because they aren't a supporting vendor.

This trashing of CCH beacause of how they advertise there heads reminds me of someone who sold glow plugs. No name on them(removed name from package). But he is a supporting vendor so it didnt matter.

You should base your descision to buy from CCH because of the product & price, not because of where they advertise.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kevin

Robyn hit it on the head.........

DSG is also a supporting vendor of TDP and this is a good thing.
Supporting these vendors is also a very good thing.

---

So far, so good.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kevin

Follow the money. DSG pays so they must be great & CCH must be trash because they aren't a supporting vendor.

---

Uh-oh... mom, I'm getting scared.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kevin

This trashing of CCH beacause of how they advertise there heads reminds me of someone who sold glow plugs. No name on them(removed name from package). But he is a supporting vendor so it didnt matter.

You should base your descision to buy from CCH because of the product & price, not because of where they advertise.

---

The best reason to belong to one of these forums is to get the real facts, not the sales propaganda, from people who actually use the stuff. We debate, we argue, and usually, the truth bubbles to the surface. If we can't be honest in those debates, we just joined the Banana Republics.

Tell me it ain't so...

The comments about the AMG-style blocks are bery pertinent... lots of vendors are advertising AMG-style blocks, when (as far as I've been able to determine), AMG is only verified as selling to GM, penninsular, Kennedy, and Uncle Sam. A lot of these 'AMG-style' blocks are in fact offshore castings. They LOOK nice, but they're not really AMG.

For the price of parts, I think we can at least demand honesty, site vendor or not. Personally, I expect a higher standard from site vendors, and I'm most often rewarded. That's why I order from them.

But my past experience with RJ in Calgary with 'AMG-Style' blocks has made me wary, and this DSG thing doesn't reassure me, as DSG (Red Deer) was going to be my next choice.

This RJ-performance block:

http://www.dieselenginemotor.com/die...image/629.html

used to get advertised as 'AMG-Style'... looks good, no? But it ain't AMG.

Forums are great places to get:

- Opinions from people who use the stuff
- information from people who have looked in places I haven't
- ideas about things best not overlooked

If forums are only for indiscriminate advertising, then I was wrong to bash Steaksauce for a year. That was HIS claim, and I never believed it.

Tell me it ain't so.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kevin

Robyn hit it on the head.........

DSG is also a supporting vendor of TDP and this is a good thing.
Supporting these vendors is also a very good thing.

Follow the money. DSG pays so they must be great & CCH must be trash because they aren't a supporting vendor.

This trashing of CCH beacause of how they advertise there heads reminds me of someone who sold glow plugs. No name on them(removed name from package). But he is a supporting vendor so it didnt matter.

You should base your descision to buy from CCH because of the product & price, not because of where they advertise.

---

If you believe I would not recommend the best vendor regardless of whether they advertise, you don't know me very well.

If any TDP advertiser is selling anything that isn't exactly what it is advertised to be or is not satisfying its customers, I want to know about it. I'll help them see the light or they won't advertise here. Just so you know, there are a few vendors who are not advertising here (they were turned away) because they don't/can't fullfill the above.

There's a lot more money in selling gizmos. If I were doing this for the money.... I'd be selling everything known to exist for these engines. This web site does not need a single advertiser.

Jim

Quote:

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Originally Posted by More Power

If you believe I would not recommend the best vendor regardless of whether they advertise, you don't know me very well.

If any TDP advertiser is selling anything that isn't exactly what it is advertised to be or is not satisfying its customers, I want to know about it. I'll help them see the light or they won't advertise here.
Jim

---

Okay, I'll buy that. I'm not doubting your integrity.

What I can't figure out was the response to Chrisk1500 (above). DSGs website says "Hummer-style" block. Like RJs website used to say "Optimax". Like Diesel-Direct produced 'AMG-style' blocks right from the boat docks.

In all these cases, one is left to draw the inference that the block is produced by AMG, and in at least two cases, that was proven to be a mistaken assumption.

Note that none of them are "selling anything that isn't exactly what it is advertised to be" (your words, not mine), but the buyer is, I believe, led to assume the block is AMG.

It seems to me that if it really WAS an AMG block, they would be proudly trumpeting that fact for all to hear. John does. So does Penninsular. To their benefit.

Missy is chasing after the same assurances from CCH. Just tell the truth, people.

Chinese-made blocks may indeed be just fine, don't get me wrong. All I want is clarity... if they ARE genuine AMG castings, then make that clear. If they're Hong-bo Engine Works castings, make that clear.

Let the buyers decide on their own. Open discussion greatly accelerates that process, and is perhaps the best incentive for site vendors to remain honest in theri claims... that honesty buys them a large volume of committed customers; dishonesty produces equally committed customers, if ya know what I mean.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jim Faire

If they're Hong-bo Engine Works

---

That's a good one, meaining, I found it funny! :D

The AMG-Style product is just because they mean that it's a copy of the block that AMG started producing after GM quit production.

Can this be mis-leading? Uh huh!

Hung-Bo Engine Foundary, copyin' heads n' blocks all day long...

Well now

Hmmmm we seem to agree to disagree in some instances.

My view is still, that its a great idea to support vendors that support this board.

This board and all that it entails is in and of itself a commercial venture.
This is a GREAT thing.
The help and service that this board has provided so many people over the years its been here is nothing short of a miracle.

All I can say for sure is that I have nothing bad to say about the service and product I got from CCH.

The practice of skewed advertising is pretty much a standard practice anymore.

A phrase using the word "Like" when describing a product is a dead giveaway that its not the real deal.

In my business I use the Wording AR-15 "TYPE" carbine. I dont want to get sued by Colt for using a copyrighted name.

My Model is a CM 1500
The product is called the 502 ThunderSabre. Its a 50 caliber carbine. The 502 is a trade name. ThunderSabre is a trade name.

The ATF requires that the thing have a model number, unique serial number (group) and the name and place of the Mfg.

As far as these engines and parts go, the govnt is not there making every tom dick and harry put their name on it.
Still though trade names are protected.

AMG cant stop folks from producing a V8 engine block that will work in place of their unit.

As long as its not being advertised as an "Optimizer" or has other trademarks on it that are owned by them the issue is pretty much a moot point.

I "do" think that the sellers would do themselves right to just say, "This is an aftermarket part" Nuff said.

As far as the other sellers, if they are having issues and are not selling what they say they are, this stuff will be self limiting and the jungle drum works well to sort out the "Good the bad and the ugly"

I personally am going to fly by the seat of my pants as I usually do and continue to ask questions as I go and not rely on advertising to make up my mind.

If its a major trade item "brand name" I read things like epinions and such to see who is talking about it and what sort of "smack" is coming down.
I recently bought a new DSLR camera and did read the on line opinions for about a month before making up my mind.

There were several factors that influenced my final decision.

IMHO here at TDP we need to pass along good experiences as well as bad.

If you have had good luck with a product, let us know, if you have a bad time, let us know.

All companies will have a bozo somewhere in the mix that may influence things badly with someone so we need to look at this too.

I try to overlook advertising and look directly at the product. Is it good? Does it work well? Is it cost effective? What is/was the company service like?

The best and most honest of advertising can make a real POS look great.

The most obscure and off the wall little company with no advertising or poor advertising just might have the best product for the best price.

I have looked at DSG's page and sorted through what they have to say.

Looks good but there are a few little anomalies there as there are over at CCH's page. Nothing bad but if you dig deep enough I think one can find these anywhere.

I myself try to keep my sources confidential, and I do this because I have done the research on the product that I am puting my name on (502 stuff) and there exists the real possibility that the machine shop may also make parts for others that have not done well and this stuff all slides back and can make things look bad.

The company that produces my parts does so for about a dozen other companies.
Unfortunately some of these companies have screwed folks over and I dont want to be connected in any way with that crap.

I pay to have my parts made to spec and it always is and I put my name on it.

Hmmmmmm If it works good and lasts a long time, who care where it came from. :rolleyes:

AS far as AMG/GEP these companies are there to service big contracts and take care of one job, MAKING $$$$$$

These companies did not set up to take care of the rag tag band of 6.5/6.2 diesel lovers that are still out there plying the highways with their 7- 25 year old GM trucks.

This is big business thats looking to the future and to large commercial/Govnt contracts and basically could care less about us.
The only connection they have to us is that they just happen to produce a product that will retrofit easily into our trucks.

My views here are not meant to be hurtful or in any way degrade the fine products that these companies produce.The fact is that they are not
required to take care of GM's customer base of the last many years.

The aftermarket, whoever and however they are will do that,and it seems that they are here and doing what they do best.

Just some thoughts. :)

Support our vendors and most of all be honest about your experiences good or bad :D

Hope this finds all of you well.

Robyn

It took me some time to read all the replies to this topic as I didn’t followed from scratch. Robyn’s original request was to reply on how many “BAD” heads from CCW and ..... was out there.

All the replies added a lot off good value to the forum but there wasn’t anyone who reported one that actually failed. Lots off reports on quality that’s not up to the known standards or OEM specification, that’s true.

Here in South Africa we salvage every part on a 6.2 no matter broken or not. Rather try and fix it than sit with nothing.

I replaced four GM heads that was cracked.

So my question: Was the heads manufactured by GM ever to their own specifications or did they battled to get it up to standard.

“WHAT IF IT BRAKES” and did it indeed brake?

The original heads had issues.
GM made some running changes in the design but the problem was never totally fixed.

The issue on this thread still seems to be that nobody should be marketing aftermarket heads without proper authorization and if they do they need to make it well known that they are copies.

My personal opinion is that if the stuff works and I can afford it, Im going to use it.

The factory stuff if you can get it is very spendy and it will suffer the same failure over time as the stuff that came on the engine originally.

Some of the aftermarket seelers are indeed marketing their product with their own name on it.
CCH is just marketing heads as either reman or new and they dont make any mention as to where the stuff comes from.
The new ones dont say GM on them.

In this day of spiralling prices the end user must do what they can to keep repair costs in check me thinks.

I have a set of CCH heads on a 94 Burb and they work fine. The long term reliability is still up for grabs.

The only feedback to speak of has been the issue of morality, legality ect.

All I want to hear about is some actual failures of these aftermarket heads and what actually happened.
I have seen a buttload of used up and cracked GM stuff so the story is pretty much there for all to see.

If there are failures then we can point the finger at the possible flaws.
Until we see some failures then the issue of whether the parts are good or not is just pure speculation.

Several major diesel engine manufactures such as Cummins to name one have plants in China and produce a ton of stuff there that I know good and well is being shipped all over the globe.

This issue will not die here I am sure. I really think that if we never hear or see one bad head from the aftermarket that there will still be many that will call trash on them just because they are not GM products.

The stuff from DSG is marketed under their own name and they are a supporter or TDP.
This is a good reason to support them me thinks. :)

As far as the other suppliers I think the probability is good that all these heads are coming from the same foundary and find their way into the US market from various points around the globe.

We shall see. I am still wanting to hear of one of these heads thats seen clock time and failed due to a fault in manufacture or materials.

The sets I have seen all seemed to be great stuff.

Later.

Robyn

Robyn, You said:

Quote:

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GM made some running changes in the design but the problem was never totally fixed.

The factory stuff if you can get it is very spendy and it will suffer the same failure over time as the stuff that came on the engine originally.

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While what you say is mostly true for GM produced cylinder heads (I've seen used GM heads that were not cracked), it's not for those cast by Navistar since 11/01. Navistar was tasked with solving the cracking problem in both the blocks and the heads. Aside from a number of design changes, Nav also changed the cast-iron alloy to include more chromium. The end result was a new cylinder head that I've yet to hear have produced a crack. :)

The CCH web site ad for their aftermarket 6.5 heads says "GM Cylinder Heads" at the top and "MFG:GM" in the spec list. You and I, and everyone here know what the situation is, but most other 6.5 owners would likely assume their heads are made by GM.... On the other hand, their eBay ad clearly indicates they are aftermarket. If CCH added the word "aftermarket" to their web site ad, I'd be OK with it. ;)

Jim

Jim I called the folks at CCH on that very thing. Their opinion is that the ad is refering to the Engine being GM not the manufacture of the head that they are selling.

I asked them to include a truth in writing about the source but have yet to see them change it.
They probably wont either as as they put it, Nobody is complaining.

Just part of everyday life in the real world me thinks.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by More Power

The CCH web site ad for their aftermarket 6.5 heads says "GM Cylinder Heads" at the top and "MFG:GM" in the spec list. You and I, and everyone here know what the situation is, but most other 6.5 owners would likely assume their heads are made by GM.... On the other hand, their eBay ad clearly indicates they are aftermarket. If CCH added the word "aftermarket" to their web site ad, I'd be OK with it. ;)

Jim

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Not to be a PITA, but their ad also says Model: Truck when it's fairly obvious that it's a cylinder head they're talking about, not a truck.

I really think you're splitting hairs on this one, Boss. From everything I can see, it's fairly obvious that these are aftermarket. I stand by my earlier comments, where customers can be misled by the phrase 'hummer-style' blocks. If CCH's MFG:GM is deemed to be misleading, I think 'Hummer-style' equally implies AMD.

Sorry... that's how I see it.

I certainly did not intend for us to fuss over such pissy little stuff like advertising but really just wanted to ferret out whether the product has seen any downfall.

I will agree with Jim that supporting a vendor who pays to be here is a good thing.

I have reached a point in my life that grumbling about something I cant change is just too much work.

I am still of the opinion that AMG/GEP and the rest of these folks really dont care a tinkers damn about the rag tag band of 6.5 lovers out here in the market place.

I will however give you this, if I see a nice writeup in a major publication that AMG/GEP is very concerned about the civilian market and really wants to support us and take care of us as customers I will trot right over and write out a detailed retraction to my previous statement :D and embellish it well with apologies.

I am not going to hold my breath though. :rolleyes:

I am still wanting to hear of some nasty failures of these flawed aftermarket heads. I want to see pictures with precups laying in pieces and nasty old cracks running all over the firedeck that look like a troop of spiders invaded the thing.

Just bring me one story that proves that these are indeed not worth the time to look at.

Just remember, I would love to buy US made stuff as many others want to. I just want the stuff at a price that I can afford.

$670 for a set of complete heads to my door is a bargain especially when they are not someone elses cast offs that may have been subjected to lord knows what..

I really dont wish to debate the moral or ethical issue in this thread.
If I have an engine that is down and I need the rig, I need parts that are going to fix the thing and get it back on the road and do a good job.

I have debated morals and ethics with many people over many issues and it never quits.

If the sellers are marketing junk then we need to make it known and I will be the first to howl if I find junk, but so far such has not been the case.

The reason for the influx of the clones is the lack of good customer support on the local (US) level.

Just cruising

Robyn

I just spoke to Trent Millard at DSG about 6.5 cylinder blocks, cylinder heads and their own web site advertising. I found it most enlightening.

Trent said that their Titan 6.5L engines are new units built with the latest AM General castings - both heads and blocks. I mentioned that saying "Hummer -Style" would not be as effective in an ad as saying "Genuine AM General castings". He said he'd change it.

They do not sell complete longblocks or drop-in engines with aftermarket heads, but they do sell aftermarket heads separately. I asked that they indicate "aftermarket" on the ad pages for the aftermarket heads. He said he would.

They do not sell aftermarket cylinder blocks for the 6.5. Trent said he looked at the imported blocks, and found them to be inferior pieces.

Trent said the first batch of imported 6.5 heads they acquired appeared to be quality units, and have had no customer complaints. The valve guides, for example, were steel inserts, instead of machined cast. The latest batch of imported heads they bought did not have the steel valve guide inserts and were rougher looking. They are in the process of evaluating them..... I also mentioned that a member here bought a set of aftermarket heads, and removed one of the precups, which had metal debris under the cup and that the cup was magnetic where the OEM cups are not magnetic. Trent thought that was interesting, and said he'd check that out as well. Trent said they won't sell problem parts.

Jim

JIm
This is interesting news. Good deal to know they are offering some top quality stuff and are willing to advertise just what they are selling.

I was chatting with the owner of a local shop here that has been bringing in the aftermarket castings. He is getting them bare and then installing the parts from GM heads that are cracked. He removes the precups that are good with no cracks as welll as the valves, springs and such. The heads are all refit to specs then decked lightly to assure a good final fit and finish.

He had been using one of the outfits that were selling the stuff complete but had a couple sets that were bad (Not CCH) He then brokered a deal to get bare castings.
I found out he has been doing this for about 3 years and to date has had zero issues.
He sells his stuff only out the door to customers that bring him a set of heads.

Its understood right up front that the castings are aftermarket and that most of the parts are used (remachined)

He also runs a tap through all the holes and makes sure the finished product is ready to go to work.
When he sendds them out they are painted and all spiffy.

He is not sure where the heads originate from but is like me and suspects china.

Good to hear that there are some folks trying to do a good job.

I have a date here soon to go look at a New China Block.
This same shop has one on order for a customer and they are going to build up a 6.5 to replkace one that has a broken main web. (Broke clean loose) The engine lost almost all oil pressure but still ran ok.
When the pulled it apart it was not immediately evident that the center main was broken clean loose.
It did not hit water but cracked all the way down and into the cam bearing area and allowed the oil pressure to leak badly.
I am supprised that it did not come apart.

Its was in a 97 Burb 2500 4x4.
They are using a lot of the original engine to build the new one.
The heads, cam and lifters,pistons, rods, pushrods, VC's Pan and the other incidentals.
They are still thinkiong about what to do for a crank. The crank that was in it is not broken and is not showing any cracks with a mag job.
I urged him to toss it. They may go with a Scat steel crank.

I am hoping to be able to see the new block before they stuff it all together.

Pete intends to check all the critical dims on the thing and run a bar through the mainline to see how good it is.

He also wants to check the cylinders to see if they are perpendicular to the crank and to make sure there are not any other issues.

This will be sweet to see first hand if this little creature measures up.

The original engine in that Burb had only 79800 miles on it so other than the broken main web it was like new inside

later

Robyn

Thank you. (pass the salt... this crow isn't bad, but it could use a little catsup).

It's nice to know that these are indeed AMG blocks... there is just no way I would want to pay that much for a 'copy'. Like I said, advertising them as genuine AM General seems like a no-brainer idea, and one that would make the customer feel more secure.

Thanks again for following up on that.
Jim

Quote:

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Originally Posted by More Power

I just spoke to Trent Millard at DSG about 6.5 cylinder blocks, cylinder heads and their own web site advertising. I found it most enlightening.

Trent said that their Titan 6.5L engines are new units built with the latest AM General castings - both heads and blocks. I mentioned that saying "Hummer -Style" would not be as effective in an ad as saying "Genuine AM General castings". He said he'd change it.

They do not sell complete longblocks or drop-in engines with aftermarket heads, but they do sell aftermarket heads separately. I asked that they indicate "aftermarket" on the ad pages for the aftermarket heads. He said he would.

They do not sell aftermarket cylinder blocks for the 6.5. Trent said he looked at the imported blocks, and found them to be inferior pieces.

Trent said the first batch of imported 6.5 heads they acquired appeared to be quality units, and have had no customer complaints. The valve guides, for example, were steel inserts, instead of machined cast. The latest batch of imported heads they bought did not have the steel valve guide inserts and were rougher looking. They are in the process of evaluating them..... I also mentioned that a member here bought a set of aftermarket heads, and removed one of the precups, which had metal debris under the cup and that the cup was magnetic where the OEM cups are not magnetic. Trent thought that was interesting, and said he'd check that out as well. Trent said they won't sell problem parts.

Jim

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Seems that DSG isn't the only ones with a claim to AMG blocks...

Reviva (and all the companies they supply to), 65DieselDirect, and RJPerformance also claim to be using genuine AMGeneral blocks.

So maybe it's not just Kennedy, GM, and Penninsular any more... this makes it a lot harder to tell what you're getting. (And more important to look, because there is several thousand dollars of price differential between those offerings.)

Amazing that hardly anybody's website says AMG blocks, but when you email them all, you get great descriptions and service.

And I thought AMG was pretty exclusive. I am so naive.

Here is a posting about a 4.0L Jeep Cylinder modified for use on 258 block.
This modification was performed by Clearwater Cylinder Heads.
The poster reported the work performed was not done correctly.
"went to install the stainless valves only to discover that the guides were installed at all different heights and two were in upside down"

http://www.bulltear.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=8075

So, from the reports here on The Diesel Page about their 6.5 Heads and now this report, you can come to you own conclusions about the quality of work and products by Clearwater Cylinder Heads.
I have no dealings with them, so I will not comment, other than passing along information.

Just received a phone call from a member from Vernal, Utah who bought a new set of Chinese 6.5 heads from a local auto parts store. He had put a great deal of time, money and effort into his engine, beginning from the bottom up. One of the heads has a porosity leak from a water jacket into the cyl. It hydro-locked his newly rebuilt engine. He's not a happy camper.

Jim

Quote:

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Originally Posted by More Power

I just spoke to Trent Millard at DSG about 6.5 cylinder blocks, cylinder heads and their own web site advertising. I found it most enlightening.

Trent said that their Titan 6.5L engines are new units built with the latest AM General castings - both heads and blocks. I mentioned that saying "Hummer -Style" would not be as effective in an ad as saying "Genuine AM General castings". He said he'd change it.

They do not sell complete longblocks or drop-in engines with aftermarket heads, but they do sell aftermarket heads separately. I asked that they indicate "aftermarket" on the ad pages for the aftermarket heads. He said he would.

Jim

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Not to be nit-picky, but neither of the two things Trent assured you would be done have happened.

The DSG website still lists brand-new "Hummer-Style" blocks. It also lists heads without the 'aftermarket' label.

Aside from the fact that Trent didn't follow-through on the assurances, they also list "the lowest price in North America on Bare heads". Not so... Ideal Cylinder head appears to have bare 6.5 TD heads for $218 with a 2-yr replacement warranty.

http://www.idealcylinderhead.com/gm-...nder-head.html

Now, that's only $23 less than DSG, but... since the topic is truth in advertising, I felt obliged to point that out.

I'm still busy eating my crow, by the way; it didn't go down all that well last time. Maybe Trent would like to split it with me.